lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 1, 2018 8:15:48 GMT
Before ore after Operation Barbarossa. Right before. Also, the Soviet forces that are located outside of the Soviet Union in 1945 and placed inside of the Soviet Union--specifically right next to the 1941 Soviet borders--in 1941 in this scenario. So will the 1945 Soviet Union counter attack 1941 Germany before 1941 Germany can invade them.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 1, 2018 9:05:22 GMT
Right before. Also, the Soviet forces that are located outside of the Soviet Union in 1945 and placed inside of the Soviet Union--specifically right next to the 1941 Soviet borders--in 1941 in this scenario. So will the 1945 Soviet Union counter attack 1941 Germany before 1941 Germany can invade them.
Under those circumstances very likely. If there are a few days before 22-6-41 Stalin might pull most of his 45 forces back a bit, wait for the attack so its clear that Hitler is the agressor then counter attack and crush the German army, probably very rapidly followed by the 'liberation' of Poland and Germany and likely other areas as well. Britain is the only other major power at war with the Axis at the moment and doesn't have the forces to do much to take Axis controlled territory before the Red Army marches in.
You could I suppose have something where possibly Italy or other Axis minor allies invite British forces to occupy them to preempt a Soviet invasion but that depends on how quickly they realise what's happening, how eager and capable Britain is to get forces in place and also how Stalin reacts to Britain taking some of his goodies.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 1, 2018 12:00:38 GMT
Wonder how the British going to react to a country who now is strong enough to battle itself to the channel and spread the revolution.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 1, 2018 12:46:26 GMT
Wonder how the British going to react to a country who now is strong enough to battle itself to the channel and spread the revolution.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 1, 2018 12:47:46 GMT
Wonder how the British going to react to a country who now is strong enough to battle itself to the channel and spread the revolution.
With great concern I would think. As would just about everybody else, especially when they start seeing what communist rule means.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 1, 2018 12:49:15 GMT
With great concern I would think. As would just about everybody else, especially when they start seeing what communist rule means.
What would Hitler do, still attack knowing that this 1945 Soviet Union comes from 4 years in the future where he lost everything.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 1, 2018 15:22:25 GMT
With great concern I would think. As would just about everybody else, especially when they start seeing what communist rule means.
What would Hitler do, still attack knowing that this 1945 Soviet Union comes from 4 years in the future where he lost everything.
It depends on the timing as to what he might know and again what he might refuse to believe.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 1, 2018 18:18:52 GMT
Germany is screwed, this is the Soviet Fronts strength in 1st January 1945:
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 1, 2018 18:42:45 GMT
Ouch! Especially when you consider those are 1945 equipment being operated by experienced verterans in many cases. Total numbers by say May 45 may be down a bit after the last desperate rearguard actions in Germany, including the Berlin battle but in terms of equipment the SU is producing like a maniac whereas the Germans are still very much on a guns and butter setting. If things went on for more than a few months they might have some trouble with logistics as a lot of their trucks are US L-L which is unlikely to be recreated here for the Soviets but by that time the fighting's likely to be over.
The German forces in 41 are very good but their equipment is pretty damned light. A lot of the tanks are still Pz Is and IIs or the P38s siezed from the Czechs. Even the Pz IIIs and IVs are early models. Similarly the a/c are a lot more modern than a lot of the German designs at this point. Even more importantly with the massive artillery support and logistics to maintain that they have a hell of a lot of firepower to hammer German forces.
I suppose if the 45 force were set up very similar to those in 41, i.e. a lot of it based far forward, and confused as to what's suddenly happened, on the morning of the 22-6-41 then the Germans might still have some success, especially in terms of air attacks catching a lot of the RAAF on the ground and possibly destroying damaging a lot. However when they start clashing with the Soviet ground forces its going to be a world of pain for the Germans.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 1, 2018 18:54:11 GMT
Ouch! Especially when you consider those are 1945 equipment being operated by experienced verterans in many cases. Total numbers by say May 45 may be down a bit after the last desperate rearguard actions in Germany, including the Berlin battle but in terms of equipment the SU is producing like a maniac whereas the Germans are still very much on a guns and butter setting. If things went on for more than a few months they might have some trouble with logistics as a lot of their trucks are US L-L which is unlikely to be recreated here for the Soviets but by that time the fighting's likely to be over. The German forces in 41 are very good but their equipment is pretty damned light. A lot of the tanks are still Pz Is and IIs or the P38s siezed from the Czechs. Even the Pz IIIs and IVs are early models. Similarly the a/c are a lot more modern than a lot of the German designs at this point. Even more importantly with the massive artillery support and logistics to maintain that they have a hell of a lot of firepower to hammer German forces. I suppose if the 45 force were set up very similar to those in 41, i.e. a lot of it based far forward, and confused as to what's suddenly happened, on the morning of the 22-6-41 then the Germans might still have some success, especially in terms of air attacks catching a lot of the RAAF on the ground and possibly destroying damaging a lot. However when they start clashing with the Soviet ground forces its going to be a world of pain for the Germans.
Found how much tanks the Germans for Operation Barbarossa: German Orders of Battle – Operation BarbarossaPzKpfw: I 877 PzKpfw :II 1,072 Panzer II Flamm (flame-thrower): 85 Panzer 35(t): 187 Panzer 38(t): 754 PzKpfw III: 1,440 PzKpfw IV: 517 Armoured Command Vehicles: 330 Assault Gun StuG III: 377 For a total of 5,639 vehicles compared to the 1945 Soviet Army which alone had some 20,600 tanks and assault guns.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 1, 2018 19:11:41 GMT
Ouch! Especially when you consider those are 1945 equipment being operated by experienced verterans in many cases. Total numbers by say May 45 may be down a bit after the last desperate rearguard actions in Germany, including the Berlin battle but in terms of equipment the SU is producing like a maniac whereas the Germans are still very much on a guns and butter setting. If things went on for more than a few months they might have some trouble with logistics as a lot of their trucks are US L-L which is unlikely to be recreated here for the Soviets but by that time the fighting's likely to be over. The German forces in 41 are very good but their equipment is pretty damned light. A lot of the tanks are still Pz Is and IIs or the P38s siezed from the Czechs. Even the Pz IIIs and IVs are early models. Similarly the a/c are a lot more modern than a lot of the German designs at this point. Even more importantly with the massive artillery support and logistics to maintain that they have a hell of a lot of firepower to hammer German forces. I suppose if the 45 force were set up very similar to those in 41, i.e. a lot of it based far forward, and confused as to what's suddenly happened, on the morning of the 22-6-41 then the Germans might still have some success, especially in terms of air attacks catching a lot of the RAAF on the ground and possibly destroying damaging a lot. However when they start clashing with the Soviet ground forces its going to be a world of pain for the Germans.
Found how much tanks the Germans for Operation Barbarossa: German Orders of Battle – Operation BarbarossaPzKpfw: I 877 PzKpfw :II 1,072 Panzer II Flamm (flame-thrower): 85 Panzer 35(t): 187 Panzer 38(t): 754 PzKpfw III: 1,440 PzKpfw IV: 517 Armoured Command Vehicles: 330 Assault Gun StuG III: 377 For a total of 5,639 vehicles compared to the 1945 Soviet Army which alone had some 20,600 tanks and assault guns.
Don't worry the natural superiority of the Ayran superman will easily defeat massive numbers of inferior Slavs, after all how could they have better equipment than the Reich. NOT!! I think in this case the German Herr will be basically trying to base its way through a concrete wall with its head and quickly find that doesn't work.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 2, 2018 14:18:00 GMT
Well we know who would win a tank on tank battle, a German PzKpfw IV Ausf. D. Ore a column of Soviet IS-2 tanks.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jul 2, 2018 18:18:42 GMT
Hi,
the russians of 1945 are so much stronger as the ones of 1941, their weapons completly superior to the germans that even if they loose most armed forces in 1941-german controlled areas - they will win. Why? the germans would launch their attacks, facing in the beginning only weak resistance on the ground, In the air the germans get asswhipped, a me109f is no match for any russian fighter in duty in russia. then the factories produce IS-2, T34-85... these tanks are not only 10times better as anything the germans have (a IS2 cannot be harmed by german Mark4 even at 10m distance with its short gun), they are more easily manned.
So - in the first 4 weeks the germans could advance, propably till a line in the baltics and south to rostov. But then the russians have some armor divisions and go like hot butter through the german forces, it is even worse as british in africa with matildas against italians with no anti-tank-guns.
Also the russians who got liberated know exactly what would happen - they suffered by the nazis, so expect every one to fight to death. If the russians give their weapons to the allies (they are vastly superior in anything they have to the USA and UK) these will build in short time enough superior (wonder)weapons-... so the germans need everything in the west to try to stop them slaughtering german airforces here.
4 years of the bloodiest war in history had pushed weaponary 20 years... that is a huge jump, for the germans way to big.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 2, 2018 19:40:53 GMT
Hi, the russians of 1945 are so much stronger as the ones of 1941, their weapons completly superior to the germans that even if they loose most armed forces in 1941-german controlled areas - they will win. Why? the germans would launch their attacks, facing in the beginning only weak resistance on the ground, In the air the germans get asswhipped, a me109f is no match for any russian fighter in duty in russia. then the factories produce IS-2, T34-85... these tanks are not only 10times better as anything the germans have (a IS2 cannot be harmed by german Mark4 even at 10m distance with its short gun), they are more easily manned. So - in the first 4 weeks the germans could advance, propably till a line in the baltics and south to rostov. But then the russians have some armor divisions and go like hot butter through the german forces, it is even worse as british in africa with matildas against italians with no anti-tank-guns. Also the russians who got liberated know exactly what would happen - they suffered by the nazis, so expect every one to fight to death. If the russians give their weapons to the allies (they are vastly superior in anything they have to the USA and UK) these will build in short time enough superior (wonder)weapons-... so the germans need everything in the west to try to stop them slaughtering german airforces here. 4 years of the bloodiest war in history had pushed weaponary 20 years... that is a huge jump, for the germans way to big.
Would agree with Steffen here with one exception. I can't see Stalin giving any info or tech to the allies. The US isn't at war yet and he will see the UK as a rival/competitor.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jul 2, 2018 20:12:00 GMT
Hi, the russians of 1945 are so much stronger as the ones of 1941, their weapons completly superior to the germans that even if they loose most armed forces in 1941-german controlled areas - they will win. Why? the germans would launch their attacks, facing in the beginning only weak resistance on the ground, In the air the germans get asswhipped, a me109f is no match for any russian fighter in duty in russia. then the factories produce IS-2, T34-85... these tanks are not only 10times better as anything the germans have (a IS2 cannot be harmed by german Mark4 even at 10m distance with its short gun), they are more easily manned. So - in the first 4 weeks the germans could advance, propably till a line in the baltics and south to rostov. But then the russians have some armor divisions and go like hot butter through the german forces, it is even worse as british in africa with matildas against italians with no anti-tank-guns. Also the russians who got liberated know exactly what would happen - they suffered by the nazis, so expect every one to fight to death. If the russians give their weapons to the allies (they are vastly superior in anything they have to the USA and UK) these will build in short time enough superior (wonder)weapons-... so the germans need everything in the west to try to stop them slaughtering german airforces here. 4 years of the bloodiest war in history had pushed weaponary 20 years... that is a huge jump, for the germans way to big.
Would agree with Steffen here with one exception. I can't see Stalin giving any info or tech to the allies. The US isn't at war yet and he will see the UK as a rival/competitor.
He has no choice. With the discussion here (or conclusion) that the russians loose everything in the areas that were german occupied in 1941 they loose the majority of their ground forces. in 1945 russia was stretched so thin, they NEED the allies urgently and quickly attacking germany, otherwise in pure manpower the germans could crush even the highly superior russian forces. Their air force is gigantic - 20.000 mostly modern, but for sure all vastly superior airplanes, also in russia producing tenthousends more of them. Also the tanks. But you need ground forces. 1945 - and loosing so many first rate armed forces in germany - they lack the manpower. Even OTL - they were nearly broken, because if they had to fight another year like may44-may45 they would have no longer the men to use the weapons. Here they loose nearly all their better forces. If the russian army of 1945 is fully distributed in russian areas it is so bad for the germans it hurts. Basically the russians counterattack in the strongest german attacks, destroy the ability to attack and mop em up. Then their tank units move deep into german area, crush any hope to defend and the other forces just have to march west.
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