lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 19, 2018 16:12:50 GMT
Hi, thats okay for me. I did not want to start some negative discussions.... well, i think there are a LOT interesting people from 1870 france.... just some artists Eugène Boudin (1824–1898) Marie Bracquemond (1840–1916) Louis Édouard Joseph Braquaval (1854–1919) Gustave Caillebotte (1848–1894) Paul Cézanne (1839–1906) Edgar Degas (1834–1917) Paul Gauguin (1848–1903) Eva Gonzalès (1847–1883) Armand Guillaumin (1841–1927) Jacques Lalande (1921–heute) Édouard Manet (1832–1883) Maxime Maufra (1861–1918) Claude Monet (1840–1926) Berthe Morisot (1841–1895) Camille Pissarro (1830–1903) Pierre-Auguste Renoir (1841–1919) Alfred Sisley (1839–1899) these are just some... don´t ignore August Rodin... maybe the greatest of this time... or the scientists... the lists are long, very long, extreme long. France of that time was full of very good, highly educated people that brought us (all humans) very important or good things. Having a knack for Impressionism i did that french list... because it would be great to see em react to fotorealism on computers... or think about Rodin working with 3D-printers... we do not even touch literature.... or science Henri Moissan (1852–1907) or Gabriel Lippmann (1845–1921) would be interesting people to contact. Also a lot more other designers, ship builders, car manufacturers... in their younger days... if you move a country from 1870 to 2018 that had such big impact into the culture of human beeings this will cause a lot of (positive) impact... at last that is my impression about that... Do not know these people out of my head, but no very famous person who i can say, hey i know him ore here.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Mar 19, 2018 18:56:00 GMT
Hi, thats okay for me. I did not want to start some negative discussions.... well, i think there are a LOT interesting people from 1870 france.... just some artists Eugène Boudin (1824–1898) Marie Bracquemond (1840–1916) Louis Édouard Joseph Braquaval (1854–1919) Gustave Caillebotte (1848–1894) Paul Cézanne (1839–1906) Edgar Degas (1834–1917) Paul Gauguin (1848–1903) Eva Gonzalès (1847–1883) Armand Guillaumin (1841–1927) Jacques Lalande (1921–heute) Édouard Manet (1832–1883) Maxime Maufra (1861–1918) Claude Monet (1840–1926) Berthe Morisot (1841–1895) Camille Pissarro (1830–1903) Pierre-Auguste Renoir (1841–1919) Alfred Sisley (1839–1899) these are just some... don´t ignore August Rodin... maybe the greatest of this time... or the scientists... the lists are long, very long, extreme long. France of that time was full of very good, highly educated people that brought us (all humans) very important or good things. Having a knack for Impressionism i did that french list... because it would be great to see em react to fotorealism on computers... or think about Rodin working with 3D-printers... we do not even touch literature.... or science Henri Moissan (1852–1907) or Gabriel Lippmann (1845–1921) would be interesting people to contact. Also a lot more other designers, ship builders, car manufacturers... in their younger days... if you move a country from 1870 to 2018 that had such big impact into the culture of human beeings this will cause a lot of (positive) impact... at last that is my impression about that... Do not know these people out of my head, but no very famous person who i can say, hey i know him ore here. Well, if you had a picture from Paul Cezanne or Monet you would never ever need to work. these pictures get sold at Southerbys around 50-200 million dollar each As a fan of Monet, Manet and Rodin i am quite biased to them so -guilty! Basically 50 years of arts was dominated by french artists And they are still alive in 1870... so one could ask em to paint for him...
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 19, 2018 18:59:08 GMT
Do not know these people out of my head, but no very famous person who i can say, hey i know him ore here. Well, if you had a picture from Paul Cezanne or Monet you would never ever need to work. these pictures get sold at Southerbys around 50-200 million dollar each As a fan of Monet, Manet and Rodin i am quite biased to them so -guilty! Basically 50 years of arts was dominated by french artists And they are still alive in 1870... so one could ask em to paint for him... Wonder if the price of those painting will drop with their creators being alive again, ore they will become very rich as soon as they claim royalties, if that is possible for legally declared death people which most of the population of 1870 France is.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Mar 19, 2018 20:50:01 GMT
Well, if you had a picture from Paul Cezanne or Monet you would never ever need to work. these pictures get sold at Southerbys around 50-200 million dollar each As a fan of Monet, Manet and Rodin i am quite biased to them so -guilty! Basically 50 years of arts was dominated by french artists And they are still alive in 1870... so one could ask em to paint for him... Wonder if the price of those painting will drop with their creators being alive again, ore they will become very rich as soon as they claim royalties, if that is possible for legally declared death people which most of the population of 1870 France is. Yes, why should one try to buy a picture for 200 millions, if he could ask him to make another one NOW Also interesting - what about paintings the artist hadn´t done and now exist in an museum? Oh... time travelling nightmares... still i think the artists would get VERY VERY rich, esp. because they now could paint and get ALL the publicity of 2018. Who cares about (fill in superstar of media of 2018) if one could visit Paul Gaugin and see him painting one of his pictures....
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 19, 2018 23:55:46 GMT
As i wrote - we will never agree about "who act wrong about the Brexit". It would be nice if you could accept that - like the overwhelming majority of the people in europe i see the only guilt in UK and that the idea that the EU will still give the british their "extra" is more than silly. But that is nothing we need to discuss... we will see what will happen in the near future. My bet is: the EU will hit UK hard, the british can either accept everything the EU demand or pay an even bigger price in tax wars and economic sanctions against the only economy the british still have - the finance sector. We both have zero influence in that, so we do not need to act uncivilized on that. As we both wrote - we disagree about it. Also - as taxpayer in the EU i hope the EU will bleed UK white to get everything UK has to pay. You may see it different - that is okay for me. It is - even if OTL politics - here important because it will influence the whole situation. With France beeing "out" there exist two possibilities. a.) "foreign-france" from the EU-ground keep the Veto right, the most realistic opinion in my eyes, or b.) the UN try to remove this section - but if this happens the EU /germany will either get this right or the european countries let the UN suffer... really suffer by removing its support. That is no game, that is no fun but politics. Personally i think no veto right should exist. All should have the same equal vote. Period. But with the veto right existing, with france - changed a lot - having that veto right we have to talk about what would happen with it. Here there exist no other solution, because france is in the EU, the EU want one Veto-right-nation in their community and with UK leaving they will fight for the french right. Another possibility doesn´t really exist. Yes - that is a lot actual political stuff - because the old french is moved into our actual date. The Trump-stuff, i don´t call him an idiot. I can´t allow myself an opinion about that. I would not know what i had done as an american in that situation (choice between Trump and Clinton). I also could not say what would have been "better" (from an european POV). Sorry, not my choice. I just try to analyse the situation: a.) Trumps USA is no longer a trustworthy partner for the EU b.) UK is no longer a trustworthy partner for the EU, because the Brexit and the huge problems that grow by this (esp. in monetarian areas) would mean that the EU will be pressed to accept another unfair and dishonest deal with UK, just like the Thatcher-UK did once (UK-discount). The time in that such behaviour was accepted - esp. from a country that gave the whole political class of Bruessles the fist - is gone. Another important point - it would tear appart the EU, if they would accept such behaviour, so by this the idea that the EU trust the british to help em in the UN without british demands (a price that could be to hight) is not correct. Still - as seen in that poison-killtry in UK there exist a lot common sense, but the politicans in the EU are no "dreamers". My personel hopes or wishes have nothing to do with that. But that the EU will change after UK has left, esp. the very strong US-connections will be weakened (we have not factored the "Trump-effect") seems clear to me. In the same time the fear about the russian bear hanging around the east european borders could cause interesting changes, too. About the "old france" - we need to agree to disagree again. France 1870 was quite antibritish, the crimea-war had nothing to do with this. Not to fight about something, but in the people, esp. the commoners, the british still were "perfidious albion"... something that changed only 30 years later, after 1907. With france looking at germany, this germany (that got crippled, lost "prussia" and is fully included - peacefully - in the EU that in the same time offers billions of euro as support to (re)build the state, that has full (100%) support by the foreigner french that have the nuclear power) is another fish to fry. As i wrote, the french wouldn´t love that their former empire has blown appart, but the whole technological stuff would be enough. No nation would work with Napoleon, he was a despot. Not even the british, knowing how mad Nappy was otl (that hadn´t changed...?) about a war would want him having nukes. So the scenario i described is the most realistic one. There is some demonstration, some helicopters bringing in some armed special forces, propably french ones (! they train in germany, right) and remove the old government (either by a 9mm bullet or get em unhurt) and a new, democratic french exile-government will help to build up the country, fueled by european money from the EU. That will not be a paradies, but the alternatives are much worse (the british government hoping to influence the french could offer what? They lack the money, support or manpower to really build up france. Only the EU could and would do it. Nobody else is able to achive this. It is ironically that the germans and belgians have the best opportunity, cause they have the most french speaking people who could teach reading and writing to the illiterate french commoners. (for 1870-level that was very good, for 2018 it is bad, seriously bad). But we face a country that suddenly has to accept Computers Nuclear power plants submarines cars trucks, airplanes container ships, terminals, the whole worldwide communication system. All in the same time with no "new french" of 1870 able to really understand this. By the way, woman are equal, gays are normal... this alone could tear a traditional1870-country appart. Could you explain why you "ignore" my last section? Everything is "OTL-politics", because these influence the whole scenario. Again, i wish no negative communication or negative feelings. Things we disagree about are not worth to get heated discussions... greetings Steffen Can we area that everybody has its own views and lets keep this thread on topic. Thus i would like to know, are there any people of 1870 France we like to meet. If Steffen stops then so will I but I will avoid replying to his last political comment.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 20, 2018 3:51:42 GMT
Can we area that everybody has its own views and lets keep this thread on topic. Thus i would like to know, are there any people of 1870 France we like to meet. If Steffen stops then so will I but I will avoid replying to his last political comment. I understand, that is why i acted and said something, politics if possible should only be discuses in Politics and Current Affairs but again back to topic, would the United Kingdom offer asylum to Napoleon III as it did in the 1870 if he was kicked out of the country.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2018 15:51:15 GMT
If Steffen stops then so will I but I will avoid replying to his last political comment. I understand, that is why i acted and said something, politics if possible should only be discuses in Politics and Current Affairs but again back to topic, would the United Kingdom offer asylum to Napoleon III as it did in the 1870 if he was kicked out of the country. It might well do as its easier than have him and his supporters being forced to fight to the death if France is invaded and also quite possibly then becoming a martyr. Also if its simply a case of the EU deciding their marching in an taking over as their 1st choice, then it will probably be seen badly in much of the world so he and the French could get a fair degree of sympathy. One possible compromise to a simple invasion and overthrow. He was already in poor health by 1870 so could he be persuaded to abdicate in favour of his son, who was 14 at the time and have a constitutional monarchy established during his regency?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 20, 2018 15:54:55 GMT
I understand, that is why i acted and said something, politics if possible should only be discuses in Politics and Current Affairs but again back to topic, would the United Kingdom offer asylum to Napoleon III as it did in the 1870 if he was kicked out of the country. It might well do as its easier than have him and his supporters being forced to fight to the death if France is invaded and also quite possibly then becoming a martyr. Also if its simply a case of the EU deciding their marching in an taking over as their 1st choice, then it will probably be seen badly in much of the world so he and the French could get a fair degree of sympathy. One possible compromise to a simple invasion and overthrow. He was already in poor health by 1870 so could he be persuaded to abdicate in favour of his son, who was 14 at the time and have a constitutional monarchy established during his regency? So we could end up with the EU/UN lead Stabilisation Force in France (SFOR-R) lead by Germany of course.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2018 16:04:54 GMT
It might well do as its easier than have him and his supporters being forced to fight to the death if France is invaded and also quite possibly then becoming a martyr. Also if its simply a case of the EU deciding their marching in an taking over as their 1st choice, then it will probably be seen badly in much of the world so he and the French could get a fair degree of sympathy. One possible compromise to a simple invasion and overthrow. He was already in poor health by 1870 so could he be persuaded to abdicate in favour of his son, who was 14 at the time and have a constitutional monarchy established during his regency? So we could end up with the EU/UN lead Stabilisation Force in France (SFOR-R) lead by Germany of course. It would depend on how things go. France needs help but the sort of naked power grab suggested and a military occupation by a coalition lead by its traditional enemy won't go down well in France. Also since the EU has no claim on 1870 France it could well cause waves in the rest of the world so I suspect such a move wouldn't have UN support. Unless Napoleon III does something really stupid, which is of course possible.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 20, 2018 16:13:10 GMT
So we could end up with the EU/UN lead Stabilisation Force in France (SFOR-R) lead by Germany of course. It would depend on how things go. France needs help but the sort of naked power grab suggested and a military occupation by a coalition lead by its traditional enemy won't go down well in France. Also since the EU has no claim on 1870 France it could well cause waves in the rest of the world so I suspect such a move wouldn't have UN support. Unless Napoleon III does something really stupid, which is of course possible. But until the Franco-Prussian War happen, Napoleon III had nothing to fear and as far as i know was firmly in power of the country, if the UN/EU removes him, it might cause a backlash.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2018 16:30:29 GMT
It would depend on how things go. France needs help but the sort of naked power grab suggested and a military occupation by a coalition lead by its traditional enemy won't go down well in France. Also since the EU has no claim on 1870 France it could well cause waves in the rest of the world so I suspect such a move wouldn't have UN support. Unless Napoleon III does something really stupid, which is of course possible. But until the Franco-Prussian War happen, Napoleon III had nothing to fear and as far as i know was firmly in power of the country, if the UN/EU removes him, it might cause a backlash. He was facing growing opposition, largely from the conservatives, along with both the republicans and the Bourbon and Orleanist blocs. His steps to liberalise and modernise education had caused a lot of resentment in the Catholic church. Even so a referendum in 1870 on his reforms and reign had the result 7,336,434 votes yes, 1,560,709 votes no, and 1,900,000 abstentions. See Growing_opposition_and_liberal_concessions_(1860-1870). He did lose all the big cities but was very popular across the countryside and smaller towns. He was also in pretty poor health and had sought to ignore medical advice which didn't help. Which was one reason why it might be that a regency under his son might be an option. As such if its seen as an attack without any real attempt to negotiate with his government there could well be a backlash, both in France and the wider world.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 20, 2018 16:33:33 GMT
But until the Franco-Prussian War happen, Napoleon III had nothing to fear and as far as i know was firmly in power of the country, if the UN/EU removes him, it might cause a backlash. He was facing growing opposition, largely from the conservatives, along with both the republicans and the Bourbon and Orleanist blocs. His steps to liberalise and modernise education had caused a lot of resentment in the Catholic church. Even so a referendum in 1870 on his reforms and reign had the result 7,336,434 votes yes, 1,560,709 votes no, and 1,900,000 abstentions. See Growing_opposition_and_liberal_concessions_(1860-1870). He did lose all the big cities but was very popular across the countryside and smaller towns. He was also in pretty poor health and had sought to ignore medical advice which didn't help. Which was one reason why it might be that a regency under his son might be an option. As such if its seen as an attack without any real attempt to negotiate with his government there could well be a backlash, both in France and the wider world. You mean a constitutional monarchy under Napoléon, Prince Imperial son of Emperor Napoleon III.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2018 17:28:16 GMT
He was facing growing opposition, largely from the conservatives, along with both the republicans and the Bourbon and Orleanist blocs. His steps to liberalise and modernise education had caused a lot of resentment in the Catholic church. Even so a referendum in 1870 on his reforms and reign had the result 7,336,434 votes yes, 1,560,709 votes no, and 1,900,000 abstentions. See Growing_opposition_and_liberal_concessions_(1860-1870). He did lose all the big cities but was very popular across the countryside and smaller towns. He was also in pretty poor health and had sought to ignore medical advice which didn't help. Which was one reason why it might be that a regency under his son might be an option. As such if its seen as an attack without any real attempt to negotiate with his government there could well be a backlash, both in France and the wider world. You mean a constitutional monarchy under Napoléon, Prince Imperial son of Emperor Napoleon III. That might be the best option given the circumstances. It gives a French a degree of continuity and avoids the massive loss of face in being occupied and forced into what many will view as revolutionary changes, which would be doubly objectionable if enforced by an external source. I don't think that the EU can simply invade and annex France, which is effectively what it would be. Even if their bringing major social change I think it would be see as simply a power/land grab and also sets a dangerous example for the future.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Mar 20, 2018 18:29:50 GMT
I understand, that is why i acted and said something, politics if possible should only be discuses in Politics and Current Affairs but again back to topic, would the United Kingdom offer asylum to Napoleon III as it did in the 1870 if he was kicked out of the country. It might well do as its easier than have him and his supporters being forced to fight to the death if France is invaded and also quite possibly then becoming a martyr. Also if its simply a case of the EU deciding their marching in an taking over as their 1st choice, then it will probably be seen badly in much of the world so he and the French could get a fair degree of sympathy. One possible compromise to a simple invasion and overthrow. He was already in poor health by 1870 so could he be persuaded to abdicate in favour of his son, who was 14 at the time and have a constitutional monarchy established during his regency? Well, Napoleon has to go in any scenario - no country would accept him. Why should modern UK accept such dictator? In that scenario? Him and his supporters would allways try something. The EU would not invade and conquer, they would support the "legitime foreign-french" who need to take democratic control. So the EU will send liberation forces, to crush an evil regime (Napoleon 1870 was no democratic system, it was "evil"). There will be no chance that france switch to a monarchy as you described. Sorry, no chance. For sure would UK try (in the actual situation) to use the chaos, but really that wouldn´t help. Nappy has to leave (either by a bullet or vanishing), also the old elite. They are non-democratic (that isn´t the biggest problem), they are in a full wrong century. The EU, supported by all states of it (with the exception of UK, who will leave EU) will march in, establish peace, start democratic reforms and a huge program of modernisation and education (of the commoners). Either peacefully or - if necessary with some force. the 1870tiers have no chance in 2018. Esp. if the people who come in speak french, build up france - as a modern society, fully democratic - with evidence that this was the france that had gone lost. That 1870er France will learn about its history (or all other countries need to be affected, too!), for sure some die-hards would dream about a red commune, but why should they start something if they could hope to get it IN the democracy france is in 2018 by elections? but this is allways 100% true: no monarchy in france. OTL in 1870 after a defeat it broke, here it will break faster.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 20, 2018 18:38:13 GMT
It might well do as its easier than have him and his supporters being forced to fight to the death if France is invaded and also quite possibly then becoming a martyr. Also if its simply a case of the EU deciding their marching in an taking over as their 1st choice, then it will probably be seen badly in much of the world so he and the French could get a fair degree of sympathy. One possible compromise to a simple invasion and overthrow. He was already in poor health by 1870 so could he be persuaded to abdicate in favour of his son, who was 14 at the time and have a constitutional monarchy established during his regency? Well, Napoleon has to go in any scenario - no country would accept him. Why should modern UK accept such dictator? In that scenario? Him and his supporters would allways try something. The EU would not invade and conquer, they would support the "legitime foreign-french" who need to take democratic control. So the EU will send liberation forces, to crush an evil regime (Napoleon 1870 was no democratic system, it was "evil"). There will be no chance that france switch to a monarchy as you described. Sorry, no chance. For sure would UK try (in the actual situation) to use the chaos, but really that wouldn´t help. Nappy has to leave (either by a bullet or vanishing), also the old elite. They are non-democratic (that isn´t the biggest problem), they are in a full wrong century. The EU, supported by all states of it (with the exception of UK, who will leave EU) will march in, establish peace, start democratic reforms and a huge program of modernisation and education (of the commoners). Either peacefully or - if necessary with some force. the 1870tiers have no chance in 2018. Esp. if the people who come in speak french, build up france - as a modern society, fully democratic - with evidence that this was the france that had gone lost. That 1870er France will learn about its history (or all other countries need to be affected, too!), for sure some die-hards would dream about a red commune, but why should they start something if they could hope to get it IN the democracy france is in 2018 by elections? but this is allways 100% true: no monarchy in france. OTL in 1870 after a defeat it broke, here it will break faster. Dictator, I think in the period he comes from it might be called different.
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