lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 10, 2017 2:52:17 GMT
Barring Napoleon still finding defeat in the heart of Russia, which is a possibility with his personality, the French empire is likely to dominate Europe for probably a generation or two and Britain's economic development is going to be seriously disrupted. You might see the rise of nationalism in Germany and Italy along with other areas eventually bringing it down but it is likely to be a long and bloody struggle. I was thinking but that would be impossible is that the Russian invasion events happen in the United Kingdom instead with the British retreating and conducting a scorched earth policy, the French capturing London and than the Royal Navy who has secretly manged to gather itself defeats the French Navy cutting of the French invasion force in the United Kingdom forcing it to surrender.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 10, 2017 15:20:19 GMT
Barring Napoleon still finding defeat in the heart of Russia, which is a possibility with his personality, the French empire is likely to dominate Europe for probably a generation or two and Britain's economic development is going to be seriously disrupted. You might see the rise of nationalism in Germany and Italy along with other areas eventually bringing it down but it is likely to be a long and bloody struggle. I was thinking but that would be impossible is that the Russian invasion events happen in the United Kingdom instead with the British retreating and conducting a scorched earth policy, the French capturing London and than the Royal Navy who has secretly manged to gather itself defeats the French Navy cutting of the French invasion force in the United Kingdom forcing it to surrender. Possibly but Britain doesn't have a lot of room for a burnt earth retreat and also the country is a lot richer than much of Russia. IIRC I read the British rejected any burnt earth policy because they decided that, especially in the south, the country was too rich to really deny an invader that much in the way of resources. Where it might work, provided that the RN can regroup to defeat the French and isolate their army is that I believe London is already the largest city in Europe - possibly the world - at this point. As such a huge battle for the city could be like an early Stalingrad, with the French struggling with close order fighting where their organisation and experience is less relevant and the locals not only have numbers but also local knowledge. This could see the French worn down enough that, coupled with isolation from reinforcement, their army is defeated. This would be likely to be extremely bloody however. Mind you there might be some irony in Napoleon dying in a skirmish somewhere in the east end of London.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 10, 2017 15:22:24 GMT
I was thinking but that would be impossible is that the Russian invasion events happen in the United Kingdom instead with the British retreating and conducting a scorched earth policy, the French capturing London and than the Royal Navy who has secretly manged to gather itself defeats the French Navy cutting of the French invasion force in the United Kingdom forcing it to surrender. Possibly but Britain doesn't have a lot of room for a burnt earth retreat and also the country is a lot richer than much of Russia. IIRC I read the British rejected any burnt earth policy because they decided that, especially in the south, the country was too rich to really deny an invader that much in the way of resources. Where it might work, provided that the RN can regroup to defeat the French and isolate their army is that I believe London is already the largest city in Europe - possibly the world - at this point. As such a huge battle for the city could be like an early Stalingrad, with the French struggling with close order fighting where their organisation and experience is less relevant and the locals not only have numbers but also local knowledge. This could see the French worn down enough that, coupled with isolation from reinforcement, their army is defeated. This would be likely to be extremely bloody however. Mind you there might be some irony in Napoleon dying in a skirmish somewhere in the east end of London. Also the French Army needs supplies from the mainland, if the Royal Navy can sink French ships transporting supplies, that will help.
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Post by marshalsoult on Jan 17, 2018 14:19:07 GMT
Possibly but Britain doesn't have a lot of room for a burnt earth retreat and also the country is a lot richer than much of Russia. IIRC I read the British rejected any burnt earth policy because they decided that, especially in the south, the country was too rich to really deny an invader that much in the way of resources. Where it might work, provided that the RN can regroup to defeat the French and isolate their army is that I believe London is already the largest city in Europe - possibly the world - at this point. As such a huge battle for the city could be like an early Stalingrad, with the French struggling with close order fighting where their organisation and experience is less relevant and the locals not only have numbers but also local knowledge. This could see the French worn down enough that, coupled with isolation from reinforcement, their army is defeated. This would be likely to be extremely bloody however. Mind you there might be some irony in Napoleon dying in a skirmish somewhere in the east end of London. Also the French Army needs supplies from the mainland, if the Royal Navy can sink French ships transporting supplies, that will help. Did you talk about the Chunnel plan yet?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 17, 2018 14:29:02 GMT
Also the French Army needs supplies from the mainland, if the Royal Navy can sink French ships transporting supplies, that will help. Did you talk about the Chunnel plan yet? No talks on this thread ore on the forum about the French plans to dig themselves to the United Kingdom, also i wonder, Would that be possible using 1900 technology
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 17, 2018 16:15:03 GMT
Did you talk about the Chunnel plan yet? No talks on this thread ore on the forum about the French plans to dig themselves to the United Kingdom, also i wonder, Would that be possible using 1900 technology I think you mean 1800 technology. Might be but I doubt it and also it could be difficult getting surprise as the effort would take years. Not to mention I think it would need artifical islands in the channel to allow ventilation for the tunnel, which I think might attract attention from the RN. Even if it was set up I wouldn't like to be a French soldier marching through it reliant on ~1810 technology and also Britain not being able to flood it. Could lose a hell of a lot of troops that way. See Channel_Tunnel#Earlier_proposals, for a few more details. It sounds distinctly less than practical.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 17, 2018 16:20:27 GMT
No talks on this thread ore on the forum about the French plans to dig themselves to the United Kingdom, also i wonder, Would that be possible using 1900 technology I think you mean 1800 technology. Might be but I doubt it and also it could be difficult getting surprise as the effort would take years. Not to mention I think it would need artifical islands in the channel to allow ventilation for the tunnel, which I think might attract attention from the RN. Even if it was set up I wouldn't like to be a French soldier marching through it reliant on ~1810 technology and also Britain not being able to flood it. Could lose a hell of a lot of troops that way. See Channel_Tunnel#Earlier_proposals, for a few more details. It sounds distinctly less than practical. i can imagine that the British seeing the French trying to open a tunnel on the British side, march down several regiments, line them up on the opening of the tunnel and start shooting the french who are coming out.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 17, 2018 17:51:46 GMT
I think you mean 1800 technology. Might be but I doubt it and also it could be difficult getting surprise as the effort would take years. Not to mention I think it would need artifical islands in the channel to allow ventilation for the tunnel, which I think might attract attention from the RN. Even if it was set up I wouldn't like to be a French soldier marching through it reliant on ~1810 technology and also Britain not being able to flood it. Could lose a hell of a lot of troops that way. See Channel_Tunnel#Earlier_proposals, for a few more details. It sounds distinctly less than practical. i can imagine that the British seeing the French trying to open a tunnel on the British side, march down several regiments, line them up on the opening of the tunnel and start shooting the french who are coming out. A few rounds of grape shot from fortified batteries set up by the enterence and you could do great slaughter. Especially since there would probably be very little room to cycle out broken units and bring new ones to the front. Not to mention seizing that new island in mid-channel and breaking it up enough to allow some water in. How are the French going to build this in the 1st place, even without British naval dominance? Not from the bottom up. They would need to dump god knows how many tons of material to establish something above the water level and then tunnel down from there to link up with the main tunnel. Apart from anything else they could still be far enough out that the down tunnel from the island is off the course of the main tunnel across the channel.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 17, 2018 17:53:51 GMT
i can imagine that the British seeing the French trying to open a tunnel on the British side, march down several regiments, line them up on the opening of the tunnel and start shooting the french who are coming out. A few rounds of grape shot from fortified batteries set up by the enterence and you could do great slaughter. Especially since there would probably be very little room to cycle out broken units and bring new ones to the front. Well i would assume they have the time to set those batteries up. I wonder where the British prepared for a underground assault by the French.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 17, 2018 21:56:52 GMT
A few rounds of grape shot from fortified batteries set up by the enterence and you could do great slaughter. Especially since there would probably be very little room to cycle out broken units and bring new ones to the front. Well i would assume they have the time to set those batteries up. I wonder where the British prepared for a underground assault by the French. At the time the French started building the tunnel, not at all. After they discovered the plans - which would be impossible to keep secret - then once they [or at least the ones with a basic knowledge of engineering] stopped laughing, then probably. Since I can't see it being completed while Napoleon's alive, if at all, I don't think it would be a realistic threat. The huge amount of work that would have to be done, virtually all by manual labour, even if you could overcome the practical problems of building such a tunnel would probably take at least a decade and probably about as many men as the 1812 Grand Army.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2018 4:49:35 GMT
probably take at least a decade and probably about as many men as the 1812 Grand Army That many.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 18, 2018 17:04:20 GMT
probably take at least a decade and probably about as many men as the 1812 Grand Army That many. Very probably. Think how long and difficult the modern Chunnel was. Then consider trying to do it from one end only and with ~1800 technology. Which basically means muscle power of men and horses and possibly some primitive steam engines. This is without the need to construct the island mid-channel and then tunnel down from that. See Thames_Tunnel, for a much simplier project which was started somewhat later and still took 18 years and nearly killed Isembard Kingdom Brunnel, as well as killing many others.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2018 17:06:40 GMT
Very probably. Think how long and difficult the modern Chunnel was. Then consider trying to do it from one end only and with ~1800 technology. Which basically means muscle power of men and horses and possibly some primitive steam engines. This is without the need to construct the island mid-channel and then tunnel down from that. See Thames_Tunnel, for a much simplier project which was started somewhat later and still took 18 years and nearly killed Isembard Kingdom Brunnel, as well as killing many others. Sounds to me the French would have better luck invading the United kingdom with its navy than digging a tunnel.
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Post by marshalsoult on Jan 19, 2018 11:10:00 GMT
Did you talk about the Chunnel plan yet? No talks on this thread ore on the forum about the French plans to dig themselves to the United Kingdom, also i wonder, Would that be possible using 1900 technology Yeah there are pictures with it clearly, I think it would be primitive and unsafe but could be done.
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Post by marshalsoult on Jan 19, 2018 11:11:24 GMT
Very probably. Think how long and difficult the modern Chunnel was. Then consider trying to do it from one end only and with ~1800 technology. Which basically means muscle power of men and horses and possibly some primitive steam engines. This is without the need to construct the island mid-channel and then tunnel down from that. See Thames_Tunnel, for a much simplier project which was started somewhat later and still took 18 years and nearly killed Isembard Kingdom Brunnel, as well as killing many others. Sounds to me the French would have better luck invading the United kingdom with its navy than digging a tunnel. The Plan was to Overrun, if they did who knows what might've happened, England's army was in its worst state at that time.
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