stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 7, 2017 17:54:08 GMT
Sorry I'm not clear what your asking? The ships lost at Trafalgar OTL are essential to this plan for an invasion to have a chance. No i mean the french ships that where in the Mediterranean Sea in 1803 most likely would have been send to join the French invasion of the United Kingdom, ore would Napoleon need them in the Mediterranean Sea for some reason. Lordroel The ships lost at Trafalgar were the French Med fleet and the bulk of the Spanish fleet. If you recall what I said in an earlier post "The basic start of events is that Villenuve manages to get out of Toulon, link up with the Spanish and travels to the Caribbean, luring Nelson after him - all of which he achieved OTL." Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 7, 2017 17:57:39 GMT
No i mean the french ships that where in the Mediterranean Sea in 1803 most likely would have been send to join the French invasion of the United Kingdom, ore would Napoleon need them in the Mediterranean Sea for some reason. Lordroel The ships lost at Trafalgar were the French Med fleet and the bulk of the Spanish fleet. If you recall what I said in an earlier post "The basic start of events is that Villenuve manages to get out of Toulon, link up with the Spanish and travels to the Caribbean, luring Nelson after him - all of which he achieved OTL." Steve Sorry, my fault.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 7, 2017 20:06:58 GMT
Lordroel The ships lost at Trafalgar were the French Med fleet and the bulk of the Spanish fleet. If you recall what I said in an earlier post "The basic start of events is that Villenuve manages to get out of Toulon, link up with the Spanish and travels to the Caribbean, luring Nelson after him - all of which he achieved OTL." Steve Sorry, my fault. No problem. As you say I've studied this period a lot and its easy to miss something. Done it often enough myself.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 8, 2017 2:44:43 GMT
No problem. As you say I've studied this period a lot and its easy to miss something. Done it often enough myself. Do we know what Napoleon had planned with the United Kingdom in case he did manged to successfully conquer it.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 8, 2017 11:24:55 GMT
No problem. As you say I've studied this period a lot and its easy to miss something. Done it often enough myself. Do we know what Napoleon had planned with the United Kingdom in case he did manged to successfully conquer it. To be honest no idea. He probably didn't have much himself as he seems, especially in the latter years to have been conquer the opponents then often a fairly draconian peace. Would expect a long occupation and quite a harsh one as he really hated Britain's continued opposition to him. It might also mean he starts thinking again about French empire outside Europe so you could see him, if he managed to do it seeking to reclaim Louisiana from the US. Which probably wouldn't go down well with them.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 8, 2017 13:17:14 GMT
Do we know what Napoleon had planned with the United Kingdom in case he did manged to successfully conquer it. To be honest no idea. He probably didn't have much himself as he seems, especially in the latter years to have been conquer the opponents then often a fairly draconian peace. Would expect a long occupation and quite a harsh one as he really hated Britain's continued opposition to him. It might also mean he starts thinking again about French empire outside Europe so you could see him, if he managed to do it seeking to reclaim Louisiana from the US. Which probably wouldn't go down well with them. Well i see 4 option he can chose from: (1) Put a member of his family on the throne. (2) Put a pretender of one of those house that claim the British throne, think of Henry Benedict Stuart (Jacobite heir to claim the thrones of England, Scotland, Ireland). (3) make it a direct part of the French Empire. (4) split it up into separate kingdoms ruled either by option 1, 2 ore 3.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 8, 2017 18:34:59 GMT
To be honest no idea. He probably didn't have much himself as he seems, especially in the latter years to have been conquer the opponents then often a fairly draconian peace. Would expect a long occupation and quite a harsh one as he really hated Britain's continued opposition to him. It might also mean he starts thinking again about French empire outside Europe so you could see him, if he managed to do it seeking to reclaim Louisiana from the US. Which probably wouldn't go down well with them. Well i see 4 option he can chose from: (1) Put a member of his family on the throne. (2) Put a pretender of one of those house that claim the British throne, think of Henry Benedict Stuart (Jacobite heir to claim the thrones of England, Scotland, Ireland). (3) make it a direct part of the French Empire. (4) split it up into separate kingdoms ruled either by option 1, 2 ore 3. Well this was a couple of years before he put his brothers on assorted thrones [Joseph Spain, Louis The Netherlands and Jerome Westphalia so he hasn't done that yet but they are available. Since he's already moved back towards Catholicism and had the pope present at his crowning as emperor I suspect that putting the Stuart claimant on the throne is the most likely. As well as no doubt keeping a large garrison in Britain and probably taking massive taxes and a number of colonial locations from Britain. Don't know if he would try 'reclaiming' Canada although between the Anglo settlers and the fact the French ones were from the former Bourbon kingdom and socially pretty conservative I suspect that would be unpopular. I doubt at this stage he would try ruling it directly as it would be potentially very explosive, both in Britain and the rest of the continent. Deposing an established dynasty would upset the conservative states as it did OTL but replacing one with another with, arguably a stronger claim would be less explosive. Also with Britain defeated and hence no naval rival you could have a markedly more relaxed stance with regards to the other states so you quite probably wouldn't see the Bourbons deposed in Spain. Could well see Westphalia established as Prussia is still largely undefeated and you might just see it, Austria and Russia combine in one alliance because of the threat from Napoleon. He might try splitting it up, most likely removing Ireland, that would weaken any restored Stuart monarchy, whereas since that dynasty had converted to Catholicism Ireland would probably be its strongest supporters so that would seem unwise to me. [Mind you that might not stop Napoleon. ]
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 8, 2017 18:45:39 GMT
would try 'reclaiming' Canada although between the Anglo settlers and the fact the French ones were from the former Bourbon kingdom and socially pretty conservative I suspect that would be unpopular. Could he not Sell Canada to the United States and keep Quebec, this gives him money he can spend on improving his empire.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 8, 2017 22:33:28 GMT
would try 'reclaiming' Canada although between the Anglo settlers and the fact the French ones were from the former Bourbon kingdom and socially pretty conservative I suspect that would be unpopular. Could he not Sell Canada to the United States and keep Quebec, this gives him money he can spend on improving his empire. Possibly sell the Anglo areas, although I think keeping Quebec is almost certain to lead to later conflicts with the US, which would become increasing difficult to sustain over coming decades, although I doubt Napoleon would look that far ahead.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2017 3:15:23 GMT
Could he not Sell Canada to the United States and keep Quebec, this gives him money he can spend on improving his empire. although I doubt Napoleon would look that far ahead. I think he did not plan ahead what he would do with the United Kingdom if he successfully manged to invade and conquer it.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 9, 2017 12:15:05 GMT
although I doubt Napoleon would look that far ahead. I think he did not plan ahead what he would do with the United Kingdom if he successfully manged to invade and conquer it. Very likely. Suspect he thought conquering Britain would solve his main problem but not really much beyond it.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2017 13:21:30 GMT
I think he did not plan ahead what he would do with the United Kingdom if he successfully manged to invade and conquer it. Very likely. Suspect he thought conquering Britain would solve his main problem but not really much beyond it. I tired searching but only find the House of Stuart to have a claim on the British Throne, this cannot mean there is only one pretender to the British throne the French can choice from, what about some pretenders to Scotland (not including the house of Stuart), England (not including the house of Stuart), also what aout Irland, who can we put on the throne there in case the French liberate it from the British.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 9, 2017 16:27:00 GMT
Very likely. Suspect he thought conquering Britain would solve his main problem but not really much beyond it. I tired searching but only find the House of Stuart to have a claim on the British Throne, this cannot mean there is only one pretender to the British throne the French can choice from, what about some pretenders to Scotland (not including the house of Stuart), England (not including the house of Stuart), also what aout Irland, who can we put on the throne there in case the French liberate it from the British. Well the Stuarts were originally Scottish and ruled it for quite a while before inheriting the English throne through marriage so it would be difficult to find an alternative Scottish dynasty, at least with an historical claim on the throne. Ireland never really had an Irish monarchy, although in the distant past assorted claimants to the title of High King of Ireland as power switched between the assorted kingdoms, but their not been in existence for so long it would be difficult to find a claiment. Also as I said the Irish, being mainly Catholics are the most likely substantial group to actually be loyal to a Stuart monarchy so I think it would be best to maintain the link. Any way you would need a fair number of French troops to keep the English and Scottish down.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2017 16:28:32 GMT
I tired searching but only find the House of Stuart to have a claim on the British Throne, this cannot mean there is only one pretender to the British throne the French can choice from, what about some pretenders to Scotland (not including the house of Stuart), England (not including the house of Stuart), also what aout Irland, who can we put on the throne there in case the French liberate it from the British. Well the Stuarts were originally Scottish and ruled it for quite a while before inheriting the English throne through marriage so it would be difficult to find an alternative Scottish dynasty, at least with an historical claim on the throne. Ireland never really had an Irish monarchy, although in the distant past assorted claimants to the title of High King of Ireland as power switched between the assorted kingdoms, but their not been in existence for so long it would be difficult to find a claiment. Also as I said the Irish, being mainly Catholics are the most likely substantial group to actually be loyal to a Stuart monarchy so I think it would be best to maintain the link. Any way you would need a fair number of French troops to keep the English and Scottish down. Plus we do not know what their colonies would do, if one member of the British royal family mange to get to Canada, they will be able to set up a government in exile.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 9, 2017 23:28:35 GMT
Well the Stuarts were originally Scottish and ruled it for quite a while before inheriting the English throne through marriage so it would be difficult to find an alternative Scottish dynasty, at least with an historical claim on the throne. Ireland never really had an Irish monarchy, although in the distant past assorted claimants to the title of High King of Ireland as power switched between the assorted kingdoms, but their not been in existence for so long it would be difficult to find a claiment. Also as I said the Irish, being mainly Catholics are the most likely substantial group to actually be loyal to a Stuart monarchy so I think it would be best to maintain the link. Any way you would need a fair number of French troops to keep the English and Scottish down. Plus we do not know what their colonies would do, if one member of the British royal family mange to get to Canada, they will be able to set up a government in exile. Possibly although with the American colonies already lost and the RN crushed - along with its shipyards and primary population base Canada would be very vulnerable to either French or American attacks. Ditto with the rest of the empire. You might just possibly see some fragile empire in India surviving if it can overcome local opponents, win the support of a lot of the local rulers and use Indian resources to defend against French attacks. However just about everywhere else is very weak at this point. Barring Napoleon still finding defeat in the heart of Russia, which is a possibility with his personality, the French empire is likely to dominate Europe for probably a generation or two and Britain's economic development is going to be seriously disrupted. You might see the rise of nationalism in Germany and Italy along with other areas eventually bringing it down but it is likely to be a long and bloody struggle.
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