lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 2, 2017 15:14:32 GMT
What if: French invasion of the United Kingdom (1803)
In 1803, Napoleon was determined to invade the British Isles. For two years, the future emperor marshaled 200,000 troops and an armada of assault craft along the northern coast of France. The success of his Armée de l’Angleterre or “Army of England” hinged on the French fleet being able to drive the Royal Navy from the sea-lanes separating the two nations, even if just for an afternoon. “Let us be masters of the [English] Channel for six hours,” said Napoleon “And we are masters of the world.” Sadly for the Corsican conqueror, it just wasn’t meant to be – Britain’s naval supremacy was unwavering. Napoleon even briefly contemplated launching an airborne assault on England by way of massive troop-carrying balloons and rumours spread throughout the United Kingdom of French invasion tunnels being dug beneath the sea between Calais and Dover. Ultimately, Bonaparte abandoned his plans and marched his army into Central Europe instead. But lets imagine that Napoleon manged to defeat the Royal Navy, would the British Army have a change to counter the invasion, no the British wouldn't have stood a chance. The Armée d'Angleterre numbered 163,645 men (including the crews of the 2,000+ invasion barges) in 1804. Napoleon envisaged it reaching 200,000 by the time it would be ready to invade. The army was divided into corps: the left flank under Marshal Ney, the right under Lannes, the centre with two corps under Soult and Davout, the cavalry, and Napoleon himself. This was the French army at the peak of its power, with an organisation, doctrine and morale that no other contemporary army could match. Against the 200,000 men of the Armée d'Angleterre, the British had only 50,000 regular troops in England — outnumbered four to one. They had another 18,000 in Ireland who might be brought over as reinforcements, but Napoleon planned to incite a rebellion in Ireland which would tie up those troops. In addition to the regulars, there were about 75,000 militia and reserve soldiers. They had little training and no combat experience, but would have served to fill out the ranks. Their actual value in battle is questionable. The British Army in England, even including the militia, was still considerably smaller than the army Napoleon planned to bring (125K vs 200K), as well as being far less effective. It had no permanent organisation above the brigade level, and little experience in fighting large-scale campaigns. Its performance even in small-scale landings and colonial actions in the 1790s had been patchy at best. During the Peninsular War the Duke of Wellington would turn the British Army into a highly effective fighting force, well-trained and well-disciplined with high morale; but that development still lay in the future at this point. There was, however, another factor to consider. In July 1803 the government, perceiving the growing risk of French invasion, announced the formation of the Volunteer Corps. Something like 480,000 people had volunteered for this by 1805 — most of them were from the lower middle classes, shopkeepers and clerks and tradesmen, with members of the local gentry standing as officers. They had no military experience, no training, little in the way of discipline, and in many cases did not even have weapons; but they were keen. They were not intended to fight as organised bodies of troops, but to harass the enemy, ambush their patrols and foraging parties, and in general carry out guerrilla warfare against the invader. These Volunteers were unlikely to have had much effect on the initial fighting, but they might have made continued French occupation of England after their victory more difficult. Napoleon's plan was to land his 200,000 men on the north Kent coast between Sheerness and Chatham, in the Medway estuary (thus avoiding the fortifications the British had built along the south coast). From there he would mount a rapid march towards London, which he expected to reach in four days. Once in London he would issue a proclamation announcing that he came as 'a friend of the English nation', abolishing the monarchy and House of Lords, and distributing the property of the aristocracy among the common people. He hoped by this means to stir up a popular revolution. French agents would also be inciting the Irish to rebel against the UK at the same time. Napoleon relied heavily on speed, shock and the morale effects of such a dramatic coup de main to overwhelm resistance. He was confident that any attempt at military action by the British army after their capital had been taken could be dealt with by the French veterans under his command, but he did not make any detailed plans in advance for how to deal with this. Having put himself into a position of strength, he would improvise from there, as he had before and would again with great success. He did not expect British resistance to continue for long once their capital city with its government offices and banks and wealth and control of trade had been captured, and revolutionary spirit had been stirred up among the common people. Whether Napoleon's beliefs about British popular opinion were correct is the only debatable point. The fact that one in five British men flocked to the colours to serve in the Volunteers or the Militia suggests that the public were not nearly as disaffected with their government as Napoleon fondly imagined. The enthusiasm for the ideals of the French Revolution that had swept the Low Countries, Germany and Italy in the wake of the advancing French armies might not be repeated in a country that had abolished feudalism centuries earlier. He could have found himself tied down in a long-term guerrilla war instead of the quick triumph he anticipated. On the other hand, England is not Spain or Russia. Guerrilla war worked so well in those countries because the terrain is harsh. An occupying army is dependent on supply convoys because it can't live off the land, and those wagons have to stick to a small number of well-known roads through the hills or forests. Enemy raids on the roads can easily cut garrison units off from supply; the guerrillas (or cossacks, in the case of Russia) can then fade back into the mountains and swamps where the occupiers can't follow them. Southern England is mostly flat, fertile and prosperous; an occupying army can easily live off the land, and there are few places for guerrillas to hide. As such, the Volunteers might have ended up as being merely a nuisance to Napoleon rather than his nemesis. In the end, though, it all came down to the navy. It was by no means a sure thing that the Royal Navy would have been able to prevent a French invasion. In 1800 Britain had 127 ships of the line, the combined fleets of France, Spain and the Netherlands had 126. Note that in practice, only half or less of those ships would actually be in service at any given time; the others would be undergoing repairs or simply be laid up in port.) So yes, Britain's navy was equal in size to the combined fleets of three other countries; but it didn't outmatch them. In terms of technology, too, British ships were no more advanced than those of their enemies; in some cases, less so. (Royal Navy captains often preferred captured French ships to British-built ones, though this was partly because the French built for speed, the British for strength, and speed is more glamorous!) The one unambiguous advantage the British had was in training and discipline. British gun crews could load and fire their cannons about three times faster than French or Spanish crews; a skill that was due to nothing more than constant, constant practice. It's why the Royal Navy was always confident of winning any battle at one-to-one numerical odds. Still, their ships and crews were not magical; if outmatched by either a much larger ship or greater numbers of enemy ships they would still lose. With the overall odds so finely balanced, it would only take bad luck on the British side or good planning by the French for a smaller British fleet to run into a larger French-Dutch-Spanish fleet and be overwhelmed, and then the balance of power would tilt irrevocably. Napoleon's plan was for the French Mediterranean fleet to combine with the Spanish fleet. It would then lure its British counterpart across the Atlantic to the West Indies by threatening an invasion of Britain's Caribbean colonies, only to double back and return to Europe unexpectedly. Here it would link up with the French Atlantic fleet and the Dutch fleet, and together they would overwhelm the British Channel Fleet. By the time the Mediterranean Fleet realised its mistake and sailed back to Europe, the Channel would be under French-Allied control and Napoleon would be sitting in London. There's no reason why this plan wouldn't have worked, except that Nelson (in command of the British Mediterranean fleet) wasn't fooled for long and returned straight away; while the French and Spanish Combined Fleet didn't follow through with the plan and link up with the French fleet in Brest, but just returned to Spain by itself instead. (By that time Napoleon had called off the invasion of England anyway, due to Austria and Russia declaring war on him as well.) But a less dynamic and capable British admiral, or a more aggressive French one, could have turned the campaign into a French victory. Napoleon certainly wouldn't have had any problem crossing the Channel with his army if the British fleet was defeated. He'd spent over a year mobilising ships and barges for the invasion, including hundreds of new gunboats specially built all over France for this purpose. He was far better prepared in 1805 than Hitler was in 1940. Article was posted on Quora and was called: How well would Napoleon's planned Invasion of Britain go if he managed to successfully land his entire Army of England on British soil?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 2, 2017 19:55:56 GMT
Lordroel As you might expect I see problems. a) The RN is a lot stronger compared to the enemy navies than those figures suggest. British advantage was in terms of time spent at sea, often on blockade, while the bulk of the enemy navies were locked up in port by those same blockades. This meant the latter had no real time at sea, making them inexperienced both in combat [since little chance to practice gunnery] or sea handling or in operating together. This would also be affected by the fact the 'allied' ships came from three different nations, with the problems in terms of language, doctrine, unfamiliarity with each other and the like. Also the simple problems of organising such a huge force. b) As the article says the French designs were often a bit faster sailors than the RN because of their more fragile design. However another factor who RN officers often lauded French designs was financial. Captured warships were sold off with a proportion of the money [prize money] going to the crew of the capturers, especially the officers. As such it was in the interest of some officers to bid up the value of French designs. c) The vessels used for the planned troop transports were very fragile. There was a famous disaster in early 1805 when Napoleon overrode the urgings of his officers and insisted on demonstrating a landing operation and much of the force was lost due to choppy waters. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ren%C3%A9_Magon_de_M%C3%A9dine,1st paragraph of the section under the 1st empire for more details. Have a lot more in David Chandler's "The Campaigns of Napoleon" but at my mum's until Friday so don't have access. Basically a lot of the invasion force could be lost at sea in normal channel conditions, others possibly scattered and blown off course. This would be especially the case if Napoleon tried going around Kent and landing in the Thames estuary instead of taking the shortest route as that gives markedly more time for problems to develop. Note also that while a lot of men might escape transporting boats/rafts by getting onto others their likely to lose heavy equipment in doing so, especially guns and the like. Going to be virtually impossible to rescue horses and even more so artillery units so the force landing is could have a lot of tired, wet men and a distinct shortage of horses, artillery and supplies. d) Furthermore even if the French manage to distract Nelson's force, concentrate all their and their allies fleets and win a battle against the Channel fleet that won't be the end of the naval war. Nelson's force with be back and there would be survivors of the other fleets. When the French flottilla sails its going to be difficult covering all of it with an inexperienced multi-national fleet. Even a few frigates using their speed and superior sailing to get among the transports is likely to cause merry hell from gunfire, possible ramming, the panic its likely to cause and the scattering that could result. e) Actually the staring of the army that Wellington used with such success had already occurred with General John Moore's work, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Moore_(British_Army_officer)#Moore_and_military_training. Also, although not sure of the dates the Martello towers covered the east coast up to Sulfolk as well as much of the south coast. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martello_tower#United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland. As such things would be better than the article suggested, although against well organised French veterans in similar or greater numbers I would see defeats, at least at 1st. [If the French control of the Channel was temporary as I would expect, Napoleon and any men with him could become isolated from the rest of his empire, as well as the supplies they would need. Although in this time period they could gain a lot from looting]. As such even if Napoleon's complex plan worked it might end up proving less than decisive, or even a fatal defeat for the French empire. If Napoleon is losing in Britain with a lot of his best troops lost or cut off from the continent then there is both the chance that other powers might join Austria in resisting the French domination. As well as the chance of other groups seeking to 'secure' the empire in Napoleon's absence. You may have guess this is a period I've looked at a fair bit and have a number of TL's from assorted PoD in the Napoleonic period. Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 3, 2017 2:38:35 GMT
You may have guess this is a period I've looked at a fair bit and have a number of TL's from assorted PoD in the Napoleonic period. Steve Was a French invasion of the United Kingdom more realistic that the German invasion of the United Kingdom in 1940.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 3, 2017 18:23:44 GMT
You may have guess this is a period I've looked at a fair bit and have a number of TL's from assorted PoD in the Napoleonic period. Steve Was a French invasion of the United Kingdom more realistic that the German invasion of the United Kingdom in 1940. Difficult to say which was the most unlikely. Presuming no major problems for the RN possibly the French in 1803-05 had even less chance than the Germans in 1940.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 3, 2017 19:47:02 GMT
Was a French invasion of the United Kingdom more realistic that the German invasion of the United Kingdom in 1940. Difficult to say which was the most unlikely. Presuming no major problems for the RN possibly the French in 1803-05 had even less chance than the Germans in 1940. But here the French did not need to worry about getting air superiority only the Royal Navy.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 3, 2017 21:05:06 GMT
Difficult to say which was the most unlikely. Presuming no major problems for the RN possibly the French in 1803-05 had even less chance than the Germans in 1940. But here the French did not need to worry about getting air superiority only the Royal Navy. What were you doing posting in the middle of the game!! Treason? Yes but 1940 the fact the Germans had numerical air superiority gave them some counter, albeit not enough against the naval superiority of the RN. Although the German navy was markedly more outclassed/outnumbered than the French were. Furthermore the Germans, being able to rely on steam power had a lot more reliability for any invasion force while the French would be far more vulnerable to bad weather. Also the British army was relatively better positioned in ~1803 compared to its opponents than in 1940 given the drastic lack of equipment after the losses of so much in France.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 3, 2017 21:08:23 GMT
nbsp; What were you doing posting in the middle of the game!! Treason? We were already 1 point ahead by then. Yes but 1940 the fact the Germans had numerical air superiority gave them some counter, albeit not enough against the naval superiority of the RN. Although the German navy was markedly more outclassed/outnumbered than the French were. Furthermore the Germans, being able to rely on steam power had a lot more reliability for any invasion force while the French would be far more vulnerable to bad weather. Also the British army was relatively better positioned in ~1803 compared to its opponents than in 1940 given the drastic lack of equipment after the losses of so much in France. Need to see if i can find any figure regarding the Royal Navy and the French Navy operating in the channel, would be fascinated to see who had the most ships as it could end up like the Spanish Armada 2.0, but now wit the French being the one who play the role of the Spanish invasion force.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 4, 2017 16:20:36 GMT
nbsp; What were you doing posting in the middle of the game!! Treason? We were already 1 point ahead by then. Yes but 1940 the fact the Germans had numerical air superiority gave them some counter, albeit not enough against the naval superiority of the RN. Although the German navy was markedly more outclassed/outnumbered than the French were. Furthermore the Germans, being able to rely on steam power had a lot more reliability for any invasion force while the French would be far more vulnerable to bad weather. Also the British army was relatively better positioned in ~1803 compared to its opponents than in 1940 given the drastic lack of equipment after the losses of so much in France. Need to see if i can find any figure regarding the Royal Navy and the French Navy operating in the channel, would be fascinated to see who had the most ships as it could end up like the Spanish Armada 2.0, but now wit the French being the one who play the role of the Spanish invasion force. As I say numbers are problem less important, unless a very large gulf, than quality. Britain has better trained men in part because of the blockade and also the French lost most of their experienced officers in the revolution. They have a far more offensive doctrine, aiming for the hulls for maximum damage rather than the sails to reduce the enemy mobility. Their industrial basis is stronger and also their going to be fighting on home ground [or at least waters] and in defense of their homeland. Furthermore as I say the French [and allies] may win the initial battle but managing to escort across the invasion force is going to be difficult, especially if Napoleon is heading for the Thames estuary rather than southern Kent. Another factor is the fact the invaders will have three nations seeking to operate together, with all the problems that can come from that. The Dutch arguably have the best quality crews, in part because of their naval tradition and like the British they tend to aim for the hull so battles between those two can be bloody. [See Camperdown for an example, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camperdown. However the reduced resources of the Dutch nation by the late 18thC and the fact their coastal waters were pretty shallow, meant their ships tended to be smaller and less heavily armed than those of the other western naval states. Also Camperdown was only a few years before and I'm not sure how much the Dutch navy would have recovered by this time. - reading through the entry for Camperdown it says This was during a period of Orange unrest against French domination which may have been a factor but between the two battles the Dutch lost 21 SOL which is a substantial amount for a medium size naval power to make up, even if they might have got most of the men back. [Presuming that no ships were returned to the Dutch after the peace of Ameins but never heard of such a return and think it unlikely]. The Spanish avoided revolutionary disorder but seem to have a reputation for considerable internal disorder of their own with a lot of corruption and incompetent in both their navy and the government as a whole. Which can affect the fleet in terms of supply of equipment, food, pay and the like and also what people are conscripted to the navy and how well they are trained. [If you have a crew largely pressed from landmen with no knowledge of the sea and how to sail it can greatly hamper their performance. There is a cause during the battle of Quiberon Bay between the RN and the French in 1759 where the RN chased a French fleet into a large bay during stormy weather. One French ship was lost when a change in the wind meant water was carried through the lower gun ports and the unskilled crew, unlike their British counter-parts, failed to close the ports rapidly enough, resulting in the ship capsizing. As such I could well see 2-1 odds, while possibly being enough to win a big battle not being enough to protect such a fragile invasion flotilla.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 4, 2017 16:26:26 GMT
We were already 1 point ahead by then. Need to see if i can find any figure regarding the Royal Navy and the French Navy operating in the channel, would be fascinated to see who had the most ships as it could end up like the Spanish Armada 2.0, but now wit the French being the one who play the role of the Spanish invasion force. As I say numbers are problem less important, unless a very large gulf, than quality. Britain has better trained men in part because of the blockade and also the French lost most of their experienced officers in the revolution. They have a far more offensive doctrine, aiming for the hulls for maximum damage rather than the sails to reduce the enemy mobility. Their industrial basis is stronger and also their going to be fighting on home ground [or at least waters] and in defense of their homeland. Furthermore as I say the French [and allies] may win the initial battle but managing to escort across the invasion force is going to be difficult, especially if Napoleon is heading for the Thames estuary rather than southern Kent. Another factor is the fact the invaders will have three nations seeking to operate together, with all the problems that can come from that. The Dutch arguably have the best quality crews, in part because of their naval tradition and like the British they tend to aim for the hull so battles between those two can be bloody. [See Camperdown for an example, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camperdown. However the reduced resources of the Dutch nation by the late 18thC and the fact their coastal waters were pretty shallow, meant their ships tended to be smaller and less heavily armed than those of the other western naval states. Also Camperdown was only a few years before and I'm not sure how much the Dutch navy would have recovered by this time. - reading through the entry for Camperdown it says This was during a period of Orange unrest against French domination which may have been a factor but between the two battles the Dutch lost 21 SOL which is a substantial amount for a medium size naval power to make up, even if they might have got most of the men back. [Presuming that no ships were returned to the Dutch after the peace of Ameins but never heard of such a return and think it unlikely]. The Spanish avoided revolutionary disorder but seem to have a reputation for considerable internal disorder of their own with a lot of corruption and incompetent in both their navy and the government as a whole. Which can affect the fleet in terms of supply of equipment, food, pay and the like and also what people are conscripted to the navy and how well they are trained. [If you have a crew largely pressed from landmen with no knowledge of the sea and how to sail it can greatly hamper their performance. There is a cause during the battle of Quiberon Bay between the RN and the French in 1759 where the RN chased a French fleet into a large bay during stormy weather. One French ship was lost when a change in the wind meant water was carried through the lower gun ports and the unskilled crew, unlike their British counter-parts, failed to close the ports rapidly enough, resulting in the ship capsizing. As such I could well see 2-1 odds, while possibly being enough to win a big battle not being enough to protect such a fragile invasion flotilla. So could we see a massive Battle of the Channel then ore what it will be called between the French navy protecting the invasion fleet and the Royal Navy who tries to sink it, ore would the Royal Navy keep its distance and wait for a moment to strike.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 4, 2017 18:14:20 GMT
As I say numbers are problem less important, unless a very large gulf, than quality. Britain has better trained men in part because of the blockade and also the French lost most of their experienced officers in the revolution. They have a far more offensive doctrine, aiming for the hulls for maximum damage rather than the sails to reduce the enemy mobility. Their industrial basis is stronger and also their going to be fighting on home ground [or at least waters] and in defense of their homeland. Furthermore as I say the French [and allies] may win the initial battle but managing to escort across the invasion force is going to be difficult, especially if Napoleon is heading for the Thames estuary rather than southern Kent. Another factor is the fact the invaders will have three nations seeking to operate together, with all the problems that can come from that. The Dutch arguably have the best quality crews, in part because of their naval tradition and like the British they tend to aim for the hull so battles between those two can be bloody. [See Camperdown for an example, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camperdown. However the reduced resources of the Dutch nation by the late 18thC and the fact their coastal waters were pretty shallow, meant their ships tended to be smaller and less heavily armed than those of the other western naval states. Also Camperdown was only a few years before and I'm not sure how much the Dutch navy would have recovered by this time. - reading through the entry for Camperdown it says This was during a period of Orange unrest against French domination which may have been a factor but between the two battles the Dutch lost 21 SOL which is a substantial amount for a medium size naval power to make up, even if they might have got most of the men back. [Presuming that no ships were returned to the Dutch after the peace of Ameins but never heard of such a return and think it unlikely]. The Spanish avoided revolutionary disorder but seem to have a reputation for considerable internal disorder of their own with a lot of corruption and incompetent in both their navy and the government as a whole. Which can affect the fleet in terms of supply of equipment, food, pay and the like and also what people are conscripted to the navy and how well they are trained. [If you have a crew largely pressed from landmen with no knowledge of the sea and how to sail it can greatly hamper their performance. There is a cause during the battle of Quiberon Bay between the RN and the French in 1759 where the RN chased a French fleet into a large bay during stormy weather. One French ship was lost when a change in the wind meant water was carried through the lower gun ports and the unskilled crew, unlike their British counter-parts, failed to close the ports rapidly enough, resulting in the ship capsizing. As such I could well see 2-1 odds, while possibly being enough to win a big battle not being enough to protect such a fragile invasion flotilla. So could we see a massive Battle of the Channel then ore what it will be called between the French navy protecting the invasion fleet and the Royal Navy who tries to sink it, ore would the Royal Navy keep its distance and wait for a moment to strike. I suspect given the circumstances the navy would contest the passage of the Channel, both because they have a culture of both victory and aggressive attacks and because it would be politically and morally very bad not to. Also I would presume they would hope to catch at least some of the enemy fleet by surprise if not isolate it. If nothing else, because the Dutch fleet is to the east they can hopefully fight the big battle before those units come into play. Furthermore, especially when relying on things as unreliable and difficult to read as the wind and currents, managing a huge battlefleet is not going to be easy, especially with relatively inexperienced commanders. Working on the assumption that events go something like this. The basic start of events is that Villenuve manages to get out of Toulon, link up with the Spanish and travels to the Caribbean, luring Nelson after him - all of which he achieved OTL. Then the POD is that he gets back to Europe while Nelson is delayed, thinking the French are still in the Casribbean. Then Villenuve sails quickly to Brest where the French Atlantic fleet is based. Possibly due to some communications success or simple luck the latter sorties, or seems to and the fleet blockading Brest withdraws eastward to link up with the Channel fleet. Think there were other, smaller 'French' forces blockaded along the Channel but the only other one I know of for sure is where Napoleon had ships being constructed at Antwerp. Presuming they are released to join the main fleet moving up the Channel, with the blockaders joining the main British fleet. At some point, possibly early on, but definitely before Boulogne, the main base of the planned invasion flotilla or enemy ships from Antwerp or the Dutch can support the Franco-Spanish force I would expect a major battle being forced by the RN. This might start with say a night attack, aided by fire ships say to try and cause maximum confusion and chaos as well as damage. Such a battle would be larger in terms of number of ships than any since the 1690's and the ships involved would be larger and more powerful than in those earlier battles. Presuming the RN is markedly outnumbered I still wouldn't rule out at least a partial victory - i.e. high losses on both sides but mostly on the enemy side and quite possibly with the allied fleet scattered or at least in some disorder. Please note that one reason Trafalgar happened was that the forces Villenuve had in Cadiz, 33 SOL and some lighter units, was too big to be maintained there. Despite being an important port and one of the richest regions in Spain it was eating out the entire region. We're talking about a fleet that could well be approaching twice the size and I doubt there will be any port in the Channel able to hold more than a fraction of it. So if it stops anywhere, to regroup or take on supplies, most of the ships will be anchored on fairly open coastline. If they continue traveling 24-7 then fleets will be spread out somewhat at night and dawn attacks could be profitable for Britain if its able to keep its own fleet together. Or simply say attacking the rear of the fleet, threatening its destruction in isolation or for the bulk of it to turn back, which will take some time, allowing possible defeat in detail. As said earlier, if the RN loses, i.e. the allied fleet maintains a coherent whole, I would still expect the imbalance to be reduced. Also then what's left of the RN would seek to attack, disrupting or destroying as much as possible of the invasion flotilla. Of course also, sooner or later Britain will get a substantial reinforcement when Nelson's fleet returns to Europe. Even without this, if Britain regains control of the Channel then any French troops landed in Britain are likely to be trapped if they can't quickly overcome opposition. You could see a much larger repeat of Napoleon's expedition to Egypt, with his troops being forced to surrender en-mass even if he again escapes.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 4, 2017 20:05:56 GMT
So could we see a massive Battle of the Channel then ore what it will be called between the French navy protecting the invasion fleet and the Royal Navy who tries to sink it, ore would the Royal Navy keep its distance and wait for a moment to strike. I suspect given the circumstances the navy would contest the passage of the Channel, both because they have a culture of both victory and aggressive attacks and because it would be politically and morally very bad not to. Also I would presume they would hope to catch at least some of the enemy fleet by surprise if not isolate it. If nothing else, because the Dutch fleet is to the east they can hopefully fight the big battle before those units come into play. Furthermore, especially when relying on things as unreliable and difficult to read as the wind and currents, managing a huge battlefleet is not going to be easy, especially with relatively inexperienced commanders. Working on the assumption that events go something like this. The basic start of events is that Villenuve manages to get out of Toulon, link up with the Spanish and travels to the Caribbean, luring Nelson after him - all of which he achieved OTL. Then the POD is that he gets back to Europe while Nelson is delayed, thinking the French are still in the Casribbean. Then Villenuve sails quickly to Brest where the French Atlantic fleet is based. Possibly due to some communications success or simple luck the latter sorties, or seems to and the fleet blockading Brest withdraws eastward to link up with the Channel fleet. Think there were other, smaller 'French' forces blockaded along the Channel but the only other one I know of for sure is where Napoleon had ships being constructed at Antwerp. Presuming they are released to join the main fleet moving up the Channel, with the blockaders joining the main British fleet. At some point, possibly early on, but definitely before Boulogne, the main base of the planned invasion flotilla or enemy ships from Antwerp or the Dutch can support the Franco-Spanish force I would expect a major battle being forced by the RN. This might start with say a night attack, aided by fire ships say to try and cause maximum confusion and chaos as well as damage. Such a battle would be larger in terms of number of ships than any since the 1690's and the ships involved would be larger and more powerful than in those earlier battles. Presuming the RN is markedly outnumbered I still wouldn't rule out at least a partial victory - i.e. high losses on both sides but mostly on the enemy side and quite possibly with the allied fleet scattered or at least in some disorder. Please note that one reason Trafalgar happened was that the forces Villenuve had in Cadiz, 33 SOL and some lighter units, was too big to be maintained there. Despite being an important port and one of the richest regions in Spain it was eating out the entire region. We're talking about a fleet that could well be approaching twice the size and I doubt there will be any port in the Channel able to hold more than a fraction of it. So if it stops anywhere, to regroup or take on supplies, most of the ships will be anchored on fairly open coastline. If they continue traveling 24-7 then fleets will be spread out somewhat at night and dawn attacks could be profitable for Britain if its able to keep its own fleet together. Or simply say attacking the rear of the fleet, threatening its destruction in isolation or for the bulk of it to turn back, which will take some time, allowing possible defeat in detail. As said earlier, if the RN loses, i.e. the allied fleet maintains a coherent whole, I would still expect the imbalance to be reduced. Also then what's left of the RN would seek to attack, disrupting or destroying as much as possible of the invasion flotilla. Of course also, sooner or later Britain will get a substantial reinforcement when Nelson's fleet returns to Europe. Even without this, if Britain regains control of the Channel then any French troops landed in Britain are likely to be trapped if they can't quickly overcome opposition. You could see a much larger repeat of Napoleon's expedition to Egypt, with his troops being forced to surrender en-mass even if he again escapes. You seem to know a lot about this period, thanks for all your time answer this, so we can give this French invasion the same label as the German Operation Sea Lion, not going to happen, do not even attempt it.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 5, 2017 11:59:20 GMT
I suspect given the circumstances the navy would contest the passage of the Channel, both because they have a culture of both victory and aggressive attacks and because it would be politically and morally very bad not to. Also I would presume they would hope to catch at least some of the enemy fleet by surprise if not isolate it. If nothing else, because the Dutch fleet is to the east they can hopefully fight the big battle before those units come into play. Furthermore, especially when relying on things as unreliable and difficult to read as the wind and currents, managing a huge battlefleet is not going to be easy, especially with relatively inexperienced commanders. Working on the assumption that events go something like this. The basic start of events is that Villenuve manages to get out of Toulon, link up with the Spanish and travels to the Caribbean, luring Nelson after him - all of which he achieved OTL. Then the POD is that he gets back to Europe while Nelson is delayed, thinking the French are still in the Casribbean. Then Villenuve sails quickly to Brest where the French Atlantic fleet is based. Possibly due to some communications success or simple luck the latter sorties, or seems to and the fleet blockading Brest withdraws eastward to link up with the Channel fleet. Think there were other, smaller 'French' forces blockaded along the Channel but the only other one I know of for sure is where Napoleon had ships being constructed at Antwerp. Presuming they are released to join the main fleet moving up the Channel, with the blockaders joining the main British fleet. At some point, possibly early on, but definitely before Boulogne, the main base of the planned invasion flotilla or enemy ships from Antwerp or the Dutch can support the Franco-Spanish force I would expect a major battle being forced by the RN. This might start with say a night attack, aided by fire ships say to try and cause maximum confusion and chaos as well as damage. Such a battle would be larger in terms of number of ships than any since the 1690's and the ships involved would be larger and more powerful than in those earlier battles. Presuming the RN is markedly outnumbered I still wouldn't rule out at least a partial victory - i.e. high losses on both sides but mostly on the enemy side and quite possibly with the allied fleet scattered or at least in some disorder. Please note that one reason Trafalgar happened was that the forces Villenuve had in Cadiz, 33 SOL and some lighter units, was too big to be maintained there. Despite being an important port and one of the richest regions in Spain it was eating out the entire region. We're talking about a fleet that could well be approaching twice the size and I doubt there will be any port in the Channel able to hold more than a fraction of it. So if it stops anywhere, to regroup or take on supplies, most of the ships will be anchored on fairly open coastline. If they continue traveling 24-7 then fleets will be spread out somewhat at night and dawn attacks could be profitable for Britain if its able to keep its own fleet together. Or simply say attacking the rear of the fleet, threatening its destruction in isolation or for the bulk of it to turn back, which will take some time, allowing possible defeat in detail. As said earlier, if the RN loses, i.e. the allied fleet maintains a coherent whole, I would still expect the imbalance to be reduced. Also then what's left of the RN would seek to attack, disrupting or destroying as much as possible of the invasion flotilla. Of course also, sooner or later Britain will get a substantial reinforcement when Nelson's fleet returns to Europe. Even without this, if Britain regains control of the Channel then any French troops landed in Britain are likely to be trapped if they can't quickly overcome opposition. You could see a much larger repeat of Napoleon's expedition to Egypt, with his troops being forced to surrender en-mass even if he again escapes. You seem to know a lot about this period, thanks for all your time answer this, so we can give this French invasion the same label as the German Operation Sea Lion, not going to happen, do not even attempt it. No problem. Happy to discuss such points. Well if their naval plan of diverting Nelson and combining a very powerful fleet against the RN happens they could get a large enough superiority that they can win a battle. Then possibly also actually launch an invasion, although with quite possibly pretty heavy losses even without RN interference as most of what I've read about the French transports makes them sound very vulnerable and if they run into even minor storms a lot of the force could go glug. You could under those circumstances see forces landing and heavy fighting but I think the chances of a French victory are fairly slim. [Unwilling to totally rule anything out but it seems unlikely]. However even a 'successful' invasion could be very costly for the French, destroying much of Napoleon's veterans and there is the danger of the quick destruction of both the majority of that army and even the empire if Napoleon is stranded in Britain. As such a failed invasion attempt is likely to be far more damaging to Napoleon than would one by Hitler. There is a famous quote by Sir John Jervis aka Admiral St Vincent after his most famous victory, shortly before be became 1st Sea Lord in 1801, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jervis,_1st_Earl_of_St_Vincent, [In 1801 in a letter to the Board of Admiralty, St Vincent made the now famous remark: "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea."]
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 5, 2017 12:04:36 GMT
You seem to know a lot about this period, thanks for all your time answer this, so we can give this French invasion the same label as the German Operation Sea Lion, not going to happen, do not even attempt it. Well if their naval plan of diverting Nelson and combining a very powerful fleet against the RN happens they could get a large enough superiority that they can win a battle. Then possibly also actually launch an invasion, although with quite possibly pretty heavy losses even without RN interference as most of what I've read about the French transports makes them sound very vulnerable and if they run into even minor storms a lot of the force could go glug. You could under those circumstances see forces landing and heavy fighting but I think the chances of a French victory are fairly slim. [Unwilling to totally rule anything out but it seems unlikely]. However even a 'successful' invasion could be very costly for the French, destroying much of Napoleon's veterans and there is the danger of the quick destruction of both the majority of that army and even the empire if Napoleon is stranded in Britain. As such a failed invasion attempt is likely to be far more damaging to Napoleon than would one by Hitler. The Battle of Trafalgar happen in 1805, thus the French still have those ships available to use for a invasion, ore does Napoleon need to keep them in Mediterranean Sea in 1803.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 5, 2017 19:30:15 GMT
Well if their naval plan of diverting Nelson and combining a very powerful fleet against the RN happens they could get a large enough superiority that they can win a battle. Then possibly also actually launch an invasion, although with quite possibly pretty heavy losses even without RN interference as most of what I've read about the French transports makes them sound very vulnerable and if they run into even minor storms a lot of the force could go glug. You could under those circumstances see forces landing and heavy fighting but I think the chances of a French victory are fairly slim. [Unwilling to totally rule anything out but it seems unlikely]. However even a 'successful' invasion could be very costly for the French, destroying much of Napoleon's veterans and there is the danger of the quick destruction of both the majority of that army and even the empire if Napoleon is stranded in Britain. As such a failed invasion attempt is likely to be far more damaging to Napoleon than would one by Hitler. The Battle of Trafalgar happen in 1805, thus the French still have those ships available to use for a invasion, ore does Napoleon need to keep them in Mediterranean Sea in 1803. Sorry I'm not clear what your asking? The ships lost at Trafalgar OTL are essential to this plan for an invasion to have a chance. Napoleon didn't get them out before 1805 although the article talks about plans from 1803 onwards. It could be that the supplies and plans weren't ready until then or simply they couldn't get away from the British blockading forces before 1805. [OTL French forces were generally able to get to sea if the RN blockading squadrons were driven from their stations by bad weather but this was far more of a problem in the Atlantic than the less stormy Med. Another factor might be that possibly Napoleon wasn't sure of reliable Spanish support until 1805?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 5, 2017 19:49:29 GMT
The Battle of Trafalgar happen in 1805, thus the French still have those ships available to use for a invasion, ore does Napoleon need to keep them in Mediterranean Sea in 1803. Sorry I'm not clear what your asking? The ships lost at Trafalgar OTL are essential to this plan for an invasion to have a chance. No i mean the french ships that where in the Mediterranean Sea in 1803 most likely would have been send to join the French invasion of the United Kingdom, ore would Napoleon need them in the Mediterranean Sea for some reason.
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