lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 11, 2017 19:19:06 GMT
Another addition: The Bay of Pigs invasion is handled quite differently from OTL, in that US ground forces assisted the Cuban revolutionaries, and both air and naval support were provided. This ended with the fall of the communist regime, the death of Fidel Castro, and the exile of Raúl Castro and Che Guevara to the Soviet Union. So President Luce makes sure that Cuba becomes democratic thereby preventing the Cuban missile Crisis.
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baloo
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Post by baloo on Apr 11, 2017 22:26:20 GMT
Yes. I realize that I'm constructing a bit of a utopia here, which I have a tendency to do.
I'm not sure where to go with the civil rights thing. Without the JFK assassination and the LBJ strongarming, surely any civil rights legislation would have to be much more moderate to pass congressional approval. And my googling around doesn't clarify her views on the matter all that well. She's quoted as saying,
"I'm still a liberal, but I agree with Senator Goldwater on everything except civil rights,"
which seems to mean she was more in favor of such legislation than he was, but I'm not sure.
As for other matters, it's pretty clear that she was not a feminist. I almost made her pick Phyllis Schlafly as SecDef, but she was rather young at the time.
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baloo
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Post by baloo on Apr 11, 2017 22:52:23 GMT
How about a Robert Byrd/John Connally ticket in '68? Beating Nixon/Rhodes?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 12, 2017 2:58:18 GMT
How about a Robert Byrd/John Connally ticket in '68? Beating Nixon/Rhodes? Well if there is a Byrd/John Connally ticket in '68 whe will not see a Watergate scandal happening here.
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baloo
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Post by baloo on Apr 12, 2017 23:19:49 GMT
Okay, here I go:
The 24-Hour War.
On 8 June, 1967, Israeli forces attack the USS Liberty, killing 34 and wounding 171. President Luce notifies Prime Minister Eshkol that she is sending US forces to occupy Tel Aviv and investigate the incident. She warns that apologies aren't enough, and that those responsible will hang for it. Eshkol resigns and is replaced by Golda Meir, counting on the fact that being American-born, she'll be able to extricate Israel from the mess with the most grace. After deliberating a few months, the Fulbright Commission reports that the responsibility lay with Eshkol (who had died of a heart attack by this time) and Defense Minister Dayan. The Israeli government extradites Dayan to the US to stand trial. There are consequent riots and attacks on US troops in Israel. Meir is assassinated by a Herut activist, and is succeeded by Yitzak Rabin.
In 1968, the Democratic party is pulled to the right, and nominates the conservative Democrat Robert Byrd of West Virginia to run against the Richard Nixon/John Rhodes ticket. Byrd picks John Connally, Governor of Texas, as his running mate, and they defeat the Republican nominees handily.
Moshe Dayan is found guilty of war crimes in April, 1969, and is pardoned by President Byrd. Dayan returns to Israel.
1972, Byrd and Connally are renominated. The Republicans pick James L. Buckley of New York, and Paul Laxalt of Nevada as his running mate. The Democratic ticket wins a narrow victory.
1976, the Republican party nominates Harrison Schmitt, Senator from New Mexico for President, and Congresswoman Phyllis Schlafly of Illinois is nominated for VP. The Democrats nominate VP Connally for the top spot, and he selects Birch Bayh of Indiana to run with him. Declaring that the Democratic party had "lost its soul" to its conservative wing, Senator John F. Kennedy makes another bid for the Presidency, this time as a nominee of the "Unity Party." He chooses Adlai Stevenson III of Illinois as his running mate. On election day, Kennedy carries only Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. The Democrats carry the deep South, plus Texas, Connecticut, Vermont, and New York state. The Republicans sweep all the other states and win in a landslide.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 13, 2017 3:41:41 GMT
Okay, here I go: The 24-Hour War. Do not think the United states is ever going to send troops to occupy even a single city in Israel, especially not during the Six-Day War as it will make the united states looking liking it supports the Arabs over Israel.
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baloo
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Post by baloo on Apr 13, 2017 3:45:58 GMT
True, but this was 50 years ago and LBJ was the first president to kowtow to Israel. I'm thinking Luce might not have, and the provocation was outrageous.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 13, 2017 3:48:15 GMT
True, but this was 50 years ago and LBJ was the first president to kowtow to Israel. I'm thinking Luce might not have, and the provocation was outrageous. Even in OTL he was not know to the fact until after the attack and when he heard it toughed it was the Soviet who had done it it, not Israel.
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baloo
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Post by baloo on Apr 13, 2017 21:41:15 GMT
Didn't know that, but he did his damnedest to minimize the event and bought into the "accident" version, which was ridiculous. I'm making Luce a more independent thinker.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 14, 2017 8:22:51 GMT
Didn't know that, but he did his damnedest to minimize the event and bought into the "accident" version, which was ridiculous. I'm making Luce a more independent thinker. and it seems more pro-Arab and anti-semitic it seems.
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baloo
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Post by baloo on Apr 14, 2017 15:16:27 GMT
That was a different time, of course, and the idea of unconditional support for Israel hadn't yet become central to American politics. Actually, I was thinking of Luce's reaction as an extension of Eisenhower's policies during the Suez Crisis. I doubt Ike would have put up with the Liberty incident the way LBJ did.
Like I said, I'm edging towards a utopia here, where the US is not so deeply involved in the Middle East rat's nest, and where none of the countries there can count on getting bailed out by US money and military support. This could result in a more prudent and accommodating Israeli policy towards Palestinians and other Arabs. And, as a result, better relations between the US and Israel.
Now then. What kind of President would Harrison Schmitt have been? Conservative, certainly, but that's about all I know about him. Could the Dems nominate John Glenn in 1980 to make it astronaut v. astronaut, or would that be too cute?
Let's say they do, and Glenn picks Jerry Brown for VP. Harrison goes on to win reelection, but is assassinated by Hinkley on March 30, 1981. Schlafly becomes President. As there is no Bayh Amendment in this TL, Tip O'Neill is first in line after Schlafly for the Presidency. But soon after these events, a very similar amendment is offered by Orrin Hatch and is ratified in September, 1982. As the Hatch Amendment is written explicitly to apply to the current President and Vice President, Schlafly appoints Wm Armstrong of Colorado as VP. Her choice is ratified by the Senate.
Also in 1982, President Schlafly invites Shevardnadze to visit the United States. He does so, and extends an invitation to Schlafly to visit the Soviet Union, which she does later that year.
Whew.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 14, 2017 15:20:42 GMT
Like I said, I'm edging towards a utopia here, where the US is not so deeply involved in the Middle East rat's nest, and where none of the countries there can count on getting bailed out by US money and military support. This could result in a more prudent and accommodating Israeli policy towards Palestinians and other Arabs. And, as a result, better relations between the US and Israel. The United States may what a utopia, the Soviet Union will be more embolden with the United States not wanting to get involved into the Middle East.
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mcnutt
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Post by mcnutt on Apr 18, 2017 15:55:07 GMT
Would a majority of delagates in 1952 vote for a women? Even if she had been Vice President for eight years I have my doubts if a women could be elected President in 1960.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 18, 2017 18:14:05 GMT
Would a majority of delagates in 1952 vote for a women? Even if she had been Vice President for eight years I have my doubts if a women could be elected President in 1960. Made that point also already in previous post, do still not think that a female in 1952 would get elected as Vice President.
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baloo
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Post by baloo on Apr 28, 2017 21:41:54 GMT
I quite agree that it's a stretch to make a woman VP in 1952 and President in 1960. So I picked the only woman I know of from the era who could possibly have pulled it off. Anyhow, I've extended the timeline a bit. Original, with pictures here: ifnicity.blogspot.com/2017/04/clare-boothe-luce.html1984. Schlafly and Armstrong are easily renominated, and a Democratic party in disarray, in a very divisive primary season, ends up nominating Gary Hart of Colorado over his closest rival, Alan Cranston of California. In a shocking move, Hart does not ask Cranston to be his running mate, which all the pundits had expected, but instead chooses Texas Representative Barbara Jordan. This was viewed at the time as a desperate move, and the Hart/Jordan ticket went down to defeat in a landslide. After the election, pundit Pat Buchanan remarked: Gary Hart just left a couple of words out of his calculations. He thought picking Barbara Jordan would win him the female vote and black vote. But it just brought him the female black vote.In 1988, VP William Armstrong is nominated by the Republican party after surviving strong challenges from Bob Dole and Jack Kemp. As Hart did in 1984, Armstrong bypasses his rivals and chooses John Sununu of New Hampshire as his running mate. Determined to win this time, the Democrats early on start pushing Senator Pat Moynihan of New York as their favored candidate, who, before entering the Senate, had served in both the Byrd and Schmitt administrations. He easily won primaries over his main challengers, Dick Gephardt of Missouri and Michael Dukakis of Massachusetts, and was nominated by acclamation at the Democratic convention in San Francisco. His choice for Vice President, Dale Bumpers of Arkansas, was also nominated by acclamation.
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