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From page 76

sloreck

Way back before I went to med school was in the VP/ASW business, so have read a lot about US ASW ops especially with P-3s. At the time of course was way to busy putting Marines back together to check out much. Did hear ASW assets were at a premium & heard a rumor they took some old P-2's out of the boneyard, upated their electronics for radar & weapons and used them to run night surface surveillance sweeps especially against small boats in the northwest almost all the way to the Aleutians. Had 1-2 squadrons all painted black & with VP- squadron #'s same as the WW2 PBY "black cats".

Understand these were a quick fix & like I said operated in anti-surface mode. Took real cojones to go up in these, even at night - when stood up almost all the aircrew were reservists, some out of retirement who had experience with these birds (last were withdrawn from Navy Reserve in ~1975).

Anybody have any info on these folks - were centered out of NAS Whidbey Island, but could operate out of pretty small fields/local airports.

DD951

sloreck said: ↑
Way back before I went to med school was in the VP/ASW business, so have read a lot about US ASW ops especially with P-3s. At the time of course was way to busy putting Marines back together to check out much. Did hear ASW assets were at a premium & heard a rumor they took some old P-2's out of the boneyard, upated their electronics for radar & weapons and used them to run night surface surveillance sweeps especially against small boats in the northwest almost all the way to the Aleutians. Had 1-2 squadrons all painted black & with VP- squadron #'s same as the WW2 PBY "black cats".

Understand these were a quick fix & like I said operated in anti-surface mode. Took real cojones to go up in these, even at night - when stood up almost all the aircrew were reservists, some out of retirement who had experience with these birds (last were withdrawn from Navy Reserve in ~1975).

Anybody have any info on these folks - were centered out of NAS Whidbey Island, but could operate out of pretty small fields/local airports.
Worked quite a bit with the P-2 squadrons at Whidbey- there were about 34 or so of them divided into 2 squadrons to start with, supplemented with about a dozen of the P2-Js the Japanese retired in 1984, which had significant upgrades over the basic P-2, such as turboprop motors. They were invaluable as surviellance platforms, feeding targeting data to US forces in BC & taking a bite out of the light crafft the Soviets had. They also did some ASW work for the Alaska convoys. However, they did have a fairly high loss rate due to them being essentially target practice without escort against both fighters & anti-aircraft defenses, not to mention simple age.

Matt Wiser

Hey 951, were any of the small craft up in the Pacific NW the, uh, "improvised" kind? I've seen pictures and video on several shows that depict converted fishing boats, oil rig utility boats, even a few cabin cruisers on the Gulf Coast, with improvised armor and gun mounts installed, a fresh coat of paint, and off they went. The brown water sailors in Louisiana and Mississippi (some were as far north as St. Louis) brought back more than a few downed pilots, which made 9th Air Force very happy that they were around. In the 4th TFW (334, 336 TFS, plus a USMC F-4 squadron from Beaufort, SC) the rule was a case of "liquid refreshment" per downed aircrew member recovered, payable to the rescuing unit.

Anyone notice on CNN today that "according to sources at the Justice Department", the first war-crimes indictments for Cuban defendants are due in a few days? The trials will be military, but the Justice Department is assisting DOD with the prosecution, and in finding qualifed (read: those with security clearances) civilian defense counsel for those defendants who don't want military lawyers. I'll bet Kelly Ann Ray gets put on a witness list or two, along with other ex-POWs.

My daughter was watching MTV this afternoon, and she said there was a show dealing with the Music of World War III. Anyone have any wartime favorites to mention? Simple Minds' Don't You (Forget About Me), Elton John's Saturday Night's Allright for Fighting, Kenny Loggins' Danger Zone, the remake of We Gotta Get Out of This Place by Katrina and the Waves (The Animals did the original), Everybody Wants to Rule the World (Tears for Fears), Stevie Nicks' Everybody Falls (in Love) and Stand Back, and of course, a favorite in Army units before going on the attack, Wagner's Ride of the Valkryies (Die Walkure). A lot of these songs were favorites on AFN's request line (at least in the Southwest).

thepenguin

Matt Wiser said: ↑
My daughter was watching MTV this afternoon, and she said there was a show dealing with the Music of World War III. Anyone have any wartime favorites to mention? Simple Minds' Don't You (Forget About Me), Elton John's Saturday Night's Allright for Fighting, Kenny Loggins' Danger Zone, the remake of We Gotta Get Out of This Place by Katrina and the Waves (The Animals did the original), Everybody Wants to Rule the World (Tears for Fears), Stevie Nicks' Everybody Falls (in Love) and Stand Back, and of course, a favorite in Army units before going on the attack, Wagner's Ride of the Valkryies (Die Walkure). A lot of these songs were favorites on AFN's request line (at least in the Southwest).
Oh yeah. Kiersten had that on today. I remember "Jeopardy" by Greg Kihn, a lot of Eagles tunes, "Hang on Sloopy" by the McCoys (It's a Buckeye thing ), Peter Frampton, Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, "Seventeen" by Stevie Nicks (and "Stand Back," "Talk to Me," and other Fleetwood Mac songs), and "She's A Beauty" by The Tubes, among others. Of course, our wing song was "The Buckeye Battle Cry." We ALWAYS played that before we went up on a mission. She was like "did you listen to this stuff, dad?" I responded "yes we did. It got us through the tough times during that war." I think Bridie caught her putting a couple of those songs on her Grooveshark account . Always a good thing, regarding some of the stuff they listen to :rolleyes:. Anybody watch hockey on here? St. Louis has been playing great hockey the last couple of days, taking San Jose and Los Angeles to shootouts (they won both). San Jose has not been playing like the best team in the league lately. They let St. Louis get back in the game on Thursday and they didn't play much better against Calgary.
Last edited: Dec 7, 2009

Matt Wiser

There's one other song that was popular in 335, and I can't remember who sang it, but the title was You Dropped a Bomb on Me. In a perverse way, for a squadron that had 75% of its tasking as air-to-ground, it seemed appropriate. Our second CO preferred Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man instead of Wagner to play before going on the first missions of the day, but most everyone else preferred Die Walkure. (which I reinstated after taking over the squadron)

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Jacqui didn't like that...losing to a bunch of Jarheads. Neither do I, when 419 flies against Marines in DACT. All I'm willing to say is that I've won more times than I've lost. The Singapore AF guys still have a lot to learn with their F-15SGs, and Kara Sackhoff's been teaching them a few hard-learned lessons. Most of 'em are pretty cool with the idea of a female teaching them, but a few weren't so sure. She taught them the hard way. I guess they overlooked the fact she's a combat veteran, and a 12-kill ace. (actually, it'd be more if a few probables were confirmed, and she reported several Mexican kills that were just too easy) Hell, she'd have more than her old CO if those kills were confirmed and she included the Mexicans-several more.

Has anyone checked out the Osprey book M-1 Abrams vs. T-72? This is about the basic and the M-1IP (Improved Performance-it had the M-1A1's features, but retained the 105-mm gun). They do have a compaion book about the M-1A1 vs. the T-80 as well: it's been mentioned here previously, but has anybody seen it, and if so, care to comment? Osprey has another book coming, in their Raid series, about Operation REINDEER: the POW rescue mounted by the 13th ACR (Medium) (aka The Hell's Angels). Remember that those guys, if they weren't assigned a mission, went out and found one on their own. Only in America could you have a military unit raised from a motorcycle gang....

The online edition of The Denver Post had an editorial on Sen. Mason's run for Governor; and they were pretty positive. The writer did offer one good piece of advice (though whether or not her campaign manager will take it is another question): don't run solely based on your war record, and try not to sling too much mud. Mudslinging's a given these days, but hopefully she'll keep it to a minimum. At least, if she loses, she still has two years left in her Senate term...
Well, the competition with the Boomers was very close, but we won by virtue of effectively punching some the simulated SAM sites in the face, which got us some bonus points. I'm willing to share the knowledge of how to do that and get away with it with your cousin, Matt.

Wolfman

sloreck said: ↑
Way back before I went to med school was in the VP/ASW business, so have read a lot about US ASW ops especially with P-3s. At the time of course was way to busy putting Marines back together to check out much. Did hear ASW assets were at a premium & heard a rumor they took some old P-2's out of the boneyard, upated their electronics for radar & weapons and used them to run night surface surveillance sweeps especially against small boats in the northwest almost all the way to the Aleutians. Had 1-2 squadrons all painted black & with VP- squadron #'s same as the WW2 PBY "black cats".

Understand these were a quick fix & like I said operated in anti-surface mode. Took real cojones to go up in these, even at night - when stood up almost all the aircrew were reservists, some out of retirement who had experience with these birds (last were withdrawn from Navy Reserve in ~1975).

Anybody have any info on these folks - were centered out of NAS Whidbey Island, but could operate out of pretty small fields/local airports.
I'd heard rumors that the Squids had recreated the Black Cats when I was flying out of NAS New Orleans with VMA(AW)-533 Hawks during the War, but didn't pay them much mind.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Hey 951, were any of the small craft up in the Pacific NW the, uh, "improvised" kind? I've seen pictures and video on several shows that depict converted fishing boats, oil rig utility boats, even a few cabin cruisers on the Gulf Coast, with improvised armor and gun mounts installed, a fresh coat of paint, and off they went. The brown water sailors in Louisiana and Mississippi (some were as far north as St. Louis) brought back more than a few downed pilots, which made 9th Air Force very happy that they were around. In the 4th TFW (334, 336 TFS, plus a USMC F-4 squadron from Beaufort, SC) the rule was a case of "liquid refreshment" per downed aircrew member recovered, payable to the rescuing unit.
After the first 6 months or so, very few of the small craft (i.e. smaller than FAC types such as PGMs) were of the improvised type. By then, we'd gotten a bunch of 'standard' stuff, such as PBRs, a few Swift Boats, a World War II PT boat that the Navy requisitined from some guy in California, & the assorted odds & ends the SEALS used. Those were supplemented by some new-build PBRs, from the company that originally designed the things (the original Vietnam PBR design was derived from a utility boat made by a company up in Bellingham). The only improvised small craft we kept were the ones that were not only fast, but could carry some firepower & a bunch of people, as the spec-ops types occasionally had a need for aquatic transport faster than the standard assortment of landing craft. Although it would have been rather difficult to ship those things to the Gulf, I don't know why nobody tried building some back East- the answer to that would probably explain why the brown-water sailors in the Gulf had to rely so much on improvised craft. As for the Soviets, just about all of their light craft were of the improvised type, although they didn't go for much armor, & installed whatever crew-served land weapons they had to spare that would fit, both Soviet-issue (new & old), & captured stuff- pretty eclectic mix there, although the stuff they put ATGMs on could be a nasty surprise.

As for the air units, it's my understanding that they had a similar arrangement regarding beer with the spec-ops types and brown-water sailors.

BigWillyG

We had similar craft in the Atlantic. Worked well enough until we got regular craft.
Never had to deal with improvised Combloc craft. Most of what we fought was regular Soviet or Cuban navy with the odd merchie that had been armed to fend us off.

Matt Wiser

So that's whose P-2 is on display at NAS Whidbey's Airpark. Jacqui pointed it out to me last time I was there to see her (just after she took over VA-165).

One other Navy squadron that came back for the river war in Louisiana was VAL-4, The Black Ponies. They had been in Vietnam, flying OV-10 Broncos, and the Navy grabbed some Broncos that an AF squadron gave up for A-10s, and reformed the unit. Given the river war, Louisiana was perfect for the OV-10s, and F-15s from the 33rd TFW (Eglin AFB) and the 122nd TFW (LA ANG) kept any marauding MiGs or Sukhois at bay. They didn't have any fancy electronics, but they were NVG-qualified, and even guerilla bands with radios were able to call for the Black Ponies (and the Seawolves) to give them a hand. The two riverine squadrons are still around today, but are Naval Air Reserve units rather than being on active duty.

Another song that was popular, especially after PRAIRIE FIRE, was one by Nancy Sinatra (another retro hit): These Boots Are Made For Walkin'; oh, they were, all right, and they started to walk all over you, Ivan and Fidel.

jacobus

Speaking of secret black painted aircraft, I've heard of a special ops squadron, in the tradition of the WW2 Luftwaffe's KG 2000, which operated a collection of captured ComBloc types, without national insignia, painted in overall black: Antonov -2 Colts, Aero L-60 Brigadyrs, and Mi-8 Hip helis, night fliers in the Mexican border territory, Louisina and other places, performing various covert missions, unsung heroes of the war. Some dropped and retrieved agents or soldiers, I suppose; others spied on the enemy, or hunted ships, trains and trucks with infrared, entering hostile airspace without arousing suspicion. I wonder who these brave Americans were, and what became of them, after the war? Were they USAF crews, or CIA? I guess it may be years before we can know their story.

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
So that's whose P-2 is on display at NAS Whidbey's Airpark. Jacqui pointed it out to me last time I was there to see her (just after she took over VA-165).

One other Navy squadron that came back for the river war in Louisiana was VAL-4, The Black Ponies. They had been in Vietnam, flying OV-10 Broncos, and the Navy grabbed some Broncos that an AF squadron gave up for A-10s, and reformed the unit. Given the river war, Louisiana was perfect for the OV-10s, and F-15s from the 33rd TFW (Eglin AFB) and the 122nd TFW (LA ANG) kept any marauding MiGs or Sukhois at bay. They didn't have any fancy electronics, but they were NVG-qualified, and even guerilla bands with radios were able to call for the Black Ponies (and the Seawolves) to give them a hand. The two riverine squadrons are still around today, but are Naval Air Reserve units rather than being on active duty.

Another song that was popular, especially after PRAIRIE FIRE, was one by Nancy Sinatra (another retro hit): These Boots Are Made For Walkin'; oh, they were, all right, and they started to walk all over you, Ivan and Fidel.
My Skipper during the War preferred The Ballad of Thunder Road.

BigWillyG

The Trooper by Iron Maiden was popular with Atlantic Fleet small craft. So was Crazy Train, whole crew on Pegasus would do Ozzies Aye Aye Aye at the beginning of the song.

Wolfman

BigWillyG said: ↑
The Trooper by Iron Maiden was popular with Atlantic Fleet small craft. So was Crazy Train, whole crew on Pegasus would do Ozzies Aye Aye Aye at the beginning of the song.
The rumor at NAS New Orleans was that the crew of the Pegasus was crazy to begin with, and reports of their antics on and off the job just confirmed it to us Marines and the Navy pilots of VA-203 Blue Dolphins who were home-based there. Speaking of... any former members of VA-203 lurking around here?

Hawthorn_Abendsen

My parents ran supplies into Vancouver for various Church groups. If any of you read Marcel Bontecou's memoir "Taking up the Cross," you would have a good idea of what they were up too, though more Mennonite then Catholic(1). They're still alive though, and did some work on rebuilding Vancouver. I plan on writing a novel using the stories my parents told me.

1.OOC: I just made Bontecou up. For the purposes of this he was a French-Canadian Catholic who lived in Vancouver during the invasion and helped administer to the religious needs to the community as well as running information and safehouses to the resistance. "Taking up the Cross," is basically a collection of his writings as he was killed by the Soviet authorities. He was later canonized as a martyr of the Catholic Church.

Wolfman

Well, give your parents my regards and admiration for their efforts at relieving the suffering caused by the Soviets.

BigWillyG

Wolfman said: ↑
The rumor at NAS New Orleans was that the crew of the Pegasus was crazy to begin with, and reports of their antics on and off the job just confirmed it to us Marines and the Navy pilots of VA-203 Blue Dolphins who were home-based there. Speaking of... any former members of VA-203 lurking around here?
Yeah we were a bit strange at times. SP hated us. You guys get the story of us attacking a convoy under a skull and crossbones while wearing pirate hats?

sloreck

When I was with 4/14 (SP 155) at the beginning of the war our CO was a classical music & he'd play the "cannonade" part of the "1812 Overture" whenever we started a fire mission.

Although you see Drs playing music in the ORs, you only do that during elective surgery as trauma gets too crazy - so with Charlie Med 1st Med Bn & with the MEF no music when we were working. Had a walkman, and a bunch of tapes I had made before the war started which kept me going some bad times. And, of course, when a local counterattack worked when I was with 4/14, got a Cuban command tent that had lots of cigars in a corner - my Marines knew I liked them and gave me about 200. Used them to de-stress a lot because not until about 6 months in when 14th Marines got reformed & I transferred to 1st FSSG really never had enough time off to get drunk as 14th Marines (or at least the part that was east of the Mississippi) started the war short on medical folks, and we lost a doc and some HMs..so those of us left were busy - and I was the most experienced surgeon.

Matt Wiser

Not sure about those guys in the "black" aircraft. We always assumed they belonged to "Other Government Agencies" or OGA. They had black helos, too: UH-1s, a few UH-60s, and a few CH-47s. They always had a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, which basically told a base commander to refuel them and give them whatever support the crew needed (usually a meal in the chow hall). One thing, though: you never asked who they were, what they did, or where they went. Never. I had two run-ins with those guys: the first was in Colorado, after my E&E. They were the ones who picked up Colonel Bella and his MI handlers. The second was at Cannon AFB in New Mexico during PRAIRIE FIRE. Two black Hueys landed, gave the line chief their card, and the crews and their passengers (a very tough-looking bunch I sure wouldn't have wanted to get angry) went off to the chow hall. When they came back, their birds were refueled, and off they went. No questions asked.

VA-203 didn't stay in Lousiana for the whole war: My Air War College notes have them going to sea aboard John F. Kennedy during GULF HAMMER and follow-on ops in the Gulf during LONG RIFLE and BORDER FURY. The two F-4 squadrons in CVWR-20 had been shot up during the initial invasion, but they gave a good account of themselves, retreating back to NAS Memphis, and then NAS Oceana, where they reequipped with F-14s straight off the production line at Grummann. One squadron went down to the Keys for air defense of Key West, while another went to NAS Memphis.

From the various books and documentaries, the "improvised" patrol craft the brown water sailors in Louisiana and along the Mississippi used were slowly, but eventually, replaced by PBRs and other purpose-built craft. But some of the converted shrimpers stayed on until the end. (their ex-VNN and ARVN crews didn't want to give them up) Still, ever see an oil rig utility boat packing a half-dozen .50 cals, a pair of Mark-19 AGLs, a TOW mount (on a tripod), and an 81-mm mortar? These guys and gals scrounged whatever guns they could find and whatever struck their fancy.

Hey Mann: I see your unit's on the list for Red Flag 03-10. Both Kara and Kelly Ann are waiting for you....And yes, they've been practicing, using the F-22 guys at Nellis as practice dummies (much to the FWS guys' disgust). A chance to "shoot down" a one-star is too good to pass up. Even if they wind up losing, it'll be worth it.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Hey Mann: I see your unit's on the list for Red Flag 03-10. Both Kara and Kelly Ann are waiting for you....And yes, they've been practicing, using the F-22 guys at Nellis as practice dummies (much to the FWS guys' disgust). A chance to "shoot down" a one-star is too good to pass up. Even if they wind up losing, it'll be worth it.
Well, me and my boys just busted the cops of a F-15C unit this morning that was paying a visit from Florida. Got five of them from beyond visual range, just because the Raptor flies so high and fast. They weren't happy about that, I can tell you. You can tell Kara and Kelly Ann that I'm ready for 'em. I'll be there myself, and I'll have some gloating to do when I bust them down to size. Hard-flying WWIII vet with 18 kills in the best fighter ever made - I wish them luck. :cool:
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From page 78

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
I'll ask Lisa if she wants another Marine. If she does, it'll probably be the Wild Boars of the 389th TFS, under Lt. Col. Kara Sackhoff.
OOC: The Wild Boars are the 391st, Matt.
IC: Would she mind an A-6 B/N as her backseater when she beats the pants off of that General?

Matt Wiser

(OOC) Tom Clancy's nonfiction book Fighter Wing has the 390th as the Wild Boars and the 391st as the Bold Tigers-and so does the Revell-Monogram F-15E kit in 1/48 (ProModeler edition). I've built the Squadron CO's bird from the 391st in the Tiger stripe scheme.

IC: If your Marine wants to help "shoot down" a one-star, I'm sure Kara won't mind. He'll have to be qualified on the Strike Eagle, though, and the WSO course lasts six months.
Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
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Dec 12, 2009
#1543
Matt Wiser
Well-Known Member
Joined:Jul 25, 2007
Location:Auberry, CA
Here's Lisa's wing as it is currently structured:

366th TFW (Composite): Mountain Home AFB, ID

389th TFS: F-15E
390th TFS (The Wild Boars): F-15E (CO Lt. Col. Kara Sackhoff)
391st TFS (Bold Tigers): F-15E
392nd Electronic Combat Squadron: EF-111A (to transition to EA-18G FY 10)
34th Bombardment Squadron: B-1C
22nd Air Refueling Squadron: KC-10B

The 366th is the "Go" Wing for Pacific Command, but trains regularly for deployments elsewhere, such as Mexico, Panama, and the Middle East.

Also on base is the 428th TFTS (Republic of Singapore AF F-15SG training): they frequently fly DACT with the units of the 366th.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Don't forget: a lot of those places had home-brew; some of the stuff the watering holes in Amarillo or Wichita Falls had would knock your socks off, and you'd be picking yourself up from the floor. Since these establishments were cut off from their suppliers, it's only natural they turned to homemade stuff.

And nobody got a court-martial over that wild night? At the very least a few Article 15s might have resulted, unless VII Corps decided to look the other way. Several of the Cobra gals have posed after the war (the usual magazine suspects) and none of 'em got in any serious trouble; I guess the Army felt the more publicity about the unit, the better.
That's why I figured nobody got a court-martial. What I heard is all hear-say, mind you, but this maintenance guy was my crew chief for a while, and I do trust what he says to me. I suspect they probably figured that "Ya know, stunts like that probably make the ComBloc gomers fear the Cobra Chicks and the Hells Angels, so it might be a good idea to let that leash be a little loose....." I hope they compensated that bar owner though, Both of those groups raise a shitstorm everywhere they go, putting them together must have genuinely scared the hell out of most of the other patrons, if there were any.

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Mann: Marines have always been carrier-qualified: your prewar cruise might have been just a refresher. Carrier Air Wing 9 has VMFA-314 assigned full-time now, Jacqui says, and a couple other carrier wings also have Marine squadrons as part of the wing. Lisa has a Marine F/A-18 driver as an exchange officer in the 391st (The Bold Tigers) (he reported last week).
I knew that, but it was not a regular occurence for us to be flying off a deck, usually we had a runway. I knew how to do a deck landing before that trip, but I have to have a lot of respect for the guys able to land on a deck at night. And having done it an F-4, I had much more respect for my brother doing it in his Tomcat - much bigger airplane, after all......

Bro called in today, says that his carrier made a port visit in Hong Kong and found a bunch of Royal Navy and Royal Australian Navy ships there. Are the Brits reinforcing Hong Kong for any particular reason, or are they just preparing for an exercise?

SirAshfordFanrico

*grew up under occupation in the MidWest* I... I'd rather not talk about... kind of a sensitive subject.

JN1

Bro called in today, says that his carrier made a port visit in Hong Kong and found a bunch of Royal Navy and Royal Australian Navy ships there. Are the Brits reinforcing Hong Kong for any particular reason, or are they just preparing for an exercise?
It's the aftermath of the operations against that warlord who decided to attack the Canton area. Operations went a lot faster than expected and ironically some of the reinforcements are only now just arriving.
The RN does once again have a major fleet base at Singapore and there is a detached squadron forward based at HK. The reinforcements will probably stay for a week or two to show the flag off the Chinese coast.
Seeing some Sea Typhoons and Scimitars flying overhead will do wonders to concentrate the minds of other Chinese warlords.

Scimitar FA.1

Best image I can find at the moment of a Sea Typhoon FGR.4.

I'm still working on getting the other matter declassified.

Jotun

I was in 4th grade of elementary school in Kiel, Germany at the time. My father was a civil servant with the Bundeswehr at the time and a Hauptbootsmann (Master Chief Petty Officer) in the Navy Reserves. He was one of the many mid-level civil servants to sabotage the Red/Green pacifist government's attempts at demilitarizing Germany by doing "Dienst nach Vorschrift" or "duty/work by the book" which is a very effective way of slowing down government work to almost nil.

Not everybody in Germany was happy with the way those crypto-commies kowtowed to the Soviets. I am still ashamed of that, and I am not alone...Luckily, their government was voted out of office after only one legislative period. They were hampered by constitutional complaints against their measures for the whole four years. It's a miracle they lasted as long as they did.

(OOC: There is NO way apart from serious ASB intervention the Germans would have elected a Green government in the eighties! Their ideas were too radical for the average citzen. The whole peace movement and protests against the NATO double-track decision were not as powerful as they were made to look in the media. The poulation was roughly evenly split for/against. There are rumors that much of the West German peace movement was co-opted by Stasi agents, btw).

JN1

I've just received a phone call from my friend in the MoD. Seems the politicians and Brass Hats have agreed to declassify what we found in the Canton area in early 1990.
Apparently there are a couple of FoI requests in the works already so they decided to jump the gun and get the 'official' version out first.

Anyway, down to business. In early 1990 I was a newly minted 1st Lieutenant serving as a troop commander in the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, my local TA regiment. My CO in 7 Black Watch (HSF) had recommended me for a commission after my war service (I finished as an acting CSM) and also arranged for my medical records to be 'lost' so that there would be no trouble in transferring from the HSF to a first-line TA unit.

As you all know the situation around Canton was pretty troublesome in 1990 and the decision had only just been taken in London that we should move in to take control. As part of that operation the armoured regiment in HK was to be reinforced and because of our commitments elsewhere the Terries got the call.
Why the FFY was tasked out of all the TA yeomanry regiments to supply one of the composite squadrons I don't know, all I know that is I found myself commanding the recce troop attached to Rhine Squadron, FFY. We were equipped with the lovely little Fox CVR(W) wheeled recce vehicle, which had the same 30mm RARDEN cannon as the Scimitar CVR(T), while the rest of the squadron had Chieftain Mk.12s
We were flown out to HK while our heavy equipment followed by sea, which meant it took about a month before we saw our kit again and a further week before we were operational.
In the end we did not see service in the initial occupation of Canton; evidently the regulars did not have much faith in us Territorials to perform well in combat. Damn cheek considering we were all war veterans – it’s hardly surprising that we call them ARABs (Arrogant Regular Army B*stards); of course they call us STABs (Stupid TA B*stards). Instead my troop and the other recce troop from 3/4 The County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters) were used for Internal Security duties within the Colony and occasionally on convoy escort duty between HK and Canton. Firing off a few rounds of 30mm HE on occasion deterred any attempts to hijack, or attack the convoys.

Then one morning to my surprise I found myself being summoned to the office of our Commanding Officer (we were attached to 1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards) who informed me that my troop of eight Foxes had been chosen to form part of the escort of a very special convoy. He was rather coy about what its task was but revealed that it included some boffins from the Atomic Weapons Establishment and some special equipment.
I was to follow the instructions of the escort commander to the letter and to defend the convoy to the utmost of my ability if it came under attack.
Imagine my surprise to see just how extensive the escort was. It had a full battalion of infantry, a squadron of Challenger tanks from the QDG, two troops of Foxes, an engineer squadron, which included an EOD troop, an air defence troop and the direct support of an artillery battery. Amongst the vehicles we were escorting were four articulated lorries that looked very like those used to carry Royal Navy Polaris and later Trident warheads.
My troop was to lead this convoy, clearing the route as we went and reporting back any problems.

When we reached our first planned destination the escort spread out to provide a perimeter, and the two recce troops were used to patrol between the defensive positions. As it happened I happened to be in the right place at the right time to see the Royal Engineers fish something out of a hole under the supervision of the AWE boffins. They were all wearing NBC gear and despite it having been in the ground for a while it was pretty clear that it was a warhead of some kind.

We repeated this operation three times, including at one site that was rather close to Hong Kong. I had already guessed that they were nuclear warheads and said as much to the OC of the Royal Engineers EOD troop.
He said “Oh yes, they’re 1MT warheads from an SS-18 Mod.4. The missile must have gone wrong.
“The Aldermaston boffins want to take them apart and see what they can learn.”

A bit of talking to the right people during my tours in HK revealed that two of the warheads on the SS-18 Mod.4 (R-36MUTTh) had been targeted on Canton, as might be guessed. However the third warhead was apparently targeted on Kai-Tak IAP in Hong Kong; the Soviets believed, rightly, that SAC might use the airport for operations against the USSR.
Both Hong Kong and Canton were pretty lucky that particular missile failed to function properly.

***

Matt Wiser

Yikes! Finding three 550KT warheads from an SS-18....three down, seven more to go-somewhere. I'm surprised that Ivan didn't go after the Taiwanese as well, given that SAC used Taiwanese fields almost as much as Kai Tak. By the way, how'd the "Royal Canton Rifles" do against that warlord? Your guys might also be on the lookout for a couple of B-52 wrecks: the AF has been looking for two Buffs that crashed near Canton (one in '87, the other in early '89), and only two aircrew members from the combined crews made it to Hong Kong.

I would imagine that both units rented out that bar for a private party. Who'd want to be knocking back a cold one or two with a bunch of the wildest female pilots in the Army on one hand, and members of a cavalry regiment who were cycle gang members in civilian life in the same establishment? And nobody called the MPs on them? Or if they did, maybe the MPs decided it wasn't worth it....since Houston at that time was still dangerous-engineers still looking for booby traps and unexploded ordnance, and some knotheads from the ALA still playing sniper...(and those, when caught, were often summarily shot!)

Speaking of the ALA, one of my reservists (he's a grad student at Utah State) is trying to do a Master's Thesis on the ALA, and he's found out that, while most of the documents on the ALA have been declassified, there's some that are still being withheld. Anyone have a guess as to what those documents might contain? Maybe those docs tell about informants letting the FBI and Military Intelligence know what was going on....

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Speaking of the ALA, one of my reservists (he's a grad student at Utah State) is trying to do a Master's Thesis on the ALA, and he's found out that, while most of the documents on the ALA have been declassified, there's some that are still being withheld. Anyone have a guess as to what those documents might contain? Maybe those docs tell about informants letting the FBI and Military Intelligence know what was going on....
Some of the stuff I've done with the DOJ has dealt with that, and your guess is getting too close. Let's just say that there were some operatives from certain agencies that infiltrated the ALA, and others who had something really juicy to offer, and considering the stigma any association with the ALA for whatever reason has, many of them were relocated & given new identities (i.e Witness Protection) for their own safety, and the files more or less sealed for the next 50 years. Some of the other stuff involves more technical means of intelligence-gathering. That's about all I can say on an open forum, but your reservist is getting into some very sensitive stuff, and if he keeps trying to poke around the classified stuff, he's going to get noticed by a lot of people in the alphabet-soup agencies, and not in a good way.

Finding 3 dud nuclear warheads, and 7 more still missing in what's more or less been warlord country for much of the last 20 years...:eek: If those other 7 warheads haven't been secured in some sort of covert operation by intelligence agencies or spec-ops units, I'd imagine that at least some of the reinforcements sent to Hong Kong & Canton are going to be picking up where you left off, JN1. The possibilities of what might happen if a warlord, especially one of the more obnoxious ones got ahold of one of them is not a pleasant thought.

JN1

The Royal Cantons weren't used in this operation. Like the Royal Hong Kongs they're set up for Internal Security, not high intensity combat. This was a job for the Gurkhas and regular infantry.

Intelligence was that the SS-18 was only carrying three warheads, though that's what I've been told anyway and my grade only goes as far as Top Secret (as adjutant I need to be cleared for war plans). The truth about the number of warheads is probably graded Cosmic Top Secret.
However I have read that the Soviet had trouble producing enough warheads to outfit their entire ICBM force. This meant that some missiles carried fewer warheads than they were designed for and some even only had radiological warheads.

What's the situation with SAC's ICBM force these days? I know they lost quite a few silos in the initial Soviet nuclear strikes and I'd heard that rather than replace the lost silos and control centres that SAC was looking to go rail and road mobile with its remaining LGM-118A Peacekeepers and the new Minuteman IV missile.

Matt Wiser

Say no more; he's only going into what's already in the public domain. His topic is basically the origins of the ALA, its leadership (and there's plenty of court cases to get material), and how factional infighting was a key factor in its disintigration in LONG RIFLE and BORDER FURY. (Of course, numerous assassinations of leadership figures at many levels of command played a major role-along with at least one KGB purge) Some have mentioned how various factions behaved while in the EPW compounds, and others basically defended themselves into either very lengthy prison terms if unlucky, or death row if they were lucky. You know the saying "No honor among thieves?" Well, a lot of these clowns turned on each other once behind barbed wire, and that made the various investigators very happy. Even if outside the wire, anyone connected with the ALA was despised.


SAC's ICBMs are now at the following bases: Whiteman AFB, MO (Minuteman IV-road mobile); F.E. Warren AFB, WY (Peacekeeper-silos), Ellsworth AFB, SD (Peacekeeper, silos), Malmstrom AFB, MT (Minuteman IV, road-mobile and silo). The Peacekeeper missile trains are at: McClellan AFB, CA; Fairchild AFB, WA; and Griffiss AFB, NY. The silos at Minot and Grand Forks have been dismantled, as the LCCs were taken out by Ivan's missiles, and both remain bomber bases only (5th at Minot w/B-52Js, 319th at Grand Forks w/B-1Cs)Vandenberg AFB, CA, is home to all ICBM training, and a number of silos are maintained in stand-by mode to receive war shots if necessary. Whiteman and Ellsworth are also bomber bases: Whiteman has the B-2A (509th BW) and Ellsworth is still home to the 28th BW (B-1C).

I'd still have the Canton-Hong Kong area double-checked: no, triple-checked. There's a chance that a number of nuclear warheads from that SS-18 shot are lying around someplace in warlord country. Even if they can't fire the warheads in their current state, they'll have the material....Better hope that JN1's right, and there were only three warheads on the missile, or maybe that other warheads overshot and wound up on the bottom of the South China Sea. Any of the British Army and Royal Marine units there find those two Buffs? The POW-MIA office in DOD is certainly interested
Last edited: Dec 14, 2009

TheMann

I think I might have an answer on one of those missing nukes, guys. My brother on Midway just called to confirm a report that came through the AF nets this morning. USS Boston (SSN-703) found the wreckage of a B-52G about 35 miles SSE of Hong Kong, in about 520 feet of water, and radiation levels in the area are somewhat above background. That's a good clue to a nuke being out there. The area is being investigated, but they figure its likely gonna be a warhead or two. This might have been the one lost in '87, Matt.

Matt Wiser

There was a Buff loss in that area in the early days: A B-52G from the 320th BW at Mather AFB was on airborne alert (SAC didn't know if Ivan would pop any more nukes after the initial attack, so some B-52s were kept on airborne alert), when it lost power in two engines, and then had an engine fire. Five of seven on the aircraft (there was a relief pilot aboard) managed to get out and were picked up by a Taiwanese destroyer. The pilot and copilot both died in the crash. The Buff most likely had a load of four gravity bombs (either B-28s, B-43s, or B-61s) and eight SRAMs. The two Buff losses near Kai Tak were over land, and both were returning from EASTERN EXPRESS strikes into Siberia when lost. The Nav from the first plane made it, while the copilot from #2 was that bird's sole survivor. The other aircrew presumably died in the crashes. Both survivors reported seeing aircraft impact while in their chutes.

eternalkerri

(first post-hope it doesn't suck)

I was 8 turning 9 when the Russians attacked.

I was going to Catholic school in Columbus, Mississippi at the time, and that's where I was when it hit us suddenly like anyone else. We were outside for second recess after lunch, we had fried chicken that day, and I was playing on the monkey bars. I missed a rung and fell, busting my lip open. At first I thought the ringing was my ears, but it turned out to be the nun's ringing the communion bells. We used the communion bell's to signal a tornado warning. The teachers and sisters were all out there running out to us on the play ground screaming at us to get inside. Mrs. Bradley was the one who scooped me up where I was crying on the ground holding my mouth streaming blood. She carried me like a fireman back towards the building when a boom went off and she dove to the ground.
Mrs. Bradley's maiden name was Van Der Waal. She had grown up in Holland during the Nazi occupation about the same I age was then. She went back to her old instincts from her childhood and covered my head.
The boom wasn't a bomb, it was the sonic boom of a Russian bomber, the kind they called, "Frogs" headed toward the airbase north of town. She picked me up and continued to carry me inside.
They kept us in the hallways like they would during a tornado. Mrs. Bradley held a rag to my lip, and rocked me back and forth stroking my hair. She just kept saying over and over, "Not again, not again." Sister Mary O'Brien led us in constant repetitions of Hail Marys and Our Fathers. We sat there doing that for 6 hours.
After dark, our parents came to get us...those of us that didn't come from the airbase. My mother was the one who came to get me, she was crying and hugged me to the point I thought she would smother me. We took home another girl who's dad was a pilot at the airbase with us that night.

They had closed off the airbase that night and no one, not even the children or their parents were allowed off and on because they were worried about Spits-nazis (thats what we called them, kids our age always had trouble with the Russian words) sneaking in and sabotaging the base.
Almost everyone's parents kept their kids home for the next week. They also tried to keep us away from the T.V.'s, but it was impossible. We were to young to understand what was going on completely, but we knew what a war was. We used to watch Dan Rather every night on the news (my dad was a CBS fan) but we couldn't anymore. He was dead. Just like almost everyone else in Washington. We watched a very tired Walter Cronkite deliver the news to us from what we later learned was Boston. He had the same eyes Mrs. Bradley did, those "Not again, not again." eyes.

After a week they let us go back to school. The girl who stayed with us for a few days moved back to Ohio with her mother while her father who lived through the raid stayed there to finish his crash fighter training classes. They had kicked all the families off the base because they were housing the orphaned pilots from the mid-west. Over night the small training base turned into a fighter/bomber base. A lot of the bases in the mid-west weren't safe anymore to house the big bombers and they diverted them all over the country. We quickly got used to the low rumble of the B-52's and the high roars of F-16's during class.

One day about two weeks after the start, they but an anti-aircraft battery in the parking lot across the street. Russian fighters were thought to come sweeping up from the south after they snuck in past the coast, or looped around from the south. The battery only fired once, and got a kill. We were sitting in class learning multiplication tables when the missle roared to life and shot off its railing it sat on. We rushed to the window but couldn't quite see what it was shooting at. We heard a boom that sounded a bit of a way off and that was it. The teacher herded us back to the seats and turned to look out the window one last time when the Russian pilot actually landed on our playground! His green parachute collapsed around him and tangled him up. We rushed back to the window as we saw the battery crewmen rush towards the collapsing green mushroom. When the pilot managed to pull himself free from the chute, one of the soldiers hit him with the butt of his rifle right in the face. The pilot fell like a knocked over Barbie doll all stiff legged, and sprawled out on the ground. The gunners all laughed at him and kicked him for good measure. We all cheered for them.

That was what it was like the first months of the war.
Last edited: Dec 14, 2009

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
(OOC) Tom Clancy's nonfiction book Fighter Wing has the 390th as the Wild Boars and the 391st as the Bold Tigers-and so does the Revell-Monogram F-15E kit in 1/48 (ProModeler edition). I've built the Squadron CO's bird from the 391st in the Tiger stripe scheme.

IC: If your Marine wants to help "shoot down" a one-star, I'm sure Kara won't mind. He'll have to be qualified on the Strike Eagle, though, and the WSO course lasts six months.
Oh, ah, when does Kara plan to bring down that one-star, since I'm sending that Marine?

JN1

Got a bit of personal news for you all. BBC Scotland is producing a TV series call 'Scotland's War' in the New Year and yours truly has been asked to be a consultant and contributer. So those of you lucky enough (or unlucky enough ) to live in the UK may soon see my ugly mug on your television set.

Wolfman

When it comes out on DVD, send me a copy, will you?

Matt Wiser

I don't think he'll make it in time: the F-15E WSO course lasts six months (the 461st TFTS "Deadly Jesters" at Luke AFB run all F-15E training), and the Red Flag where Kara and Kelly Ann plan to ambush the one-star is sometime in Feb. They'll get him, one way or another. Nothing like cutting F-22 jockeys down to size, Kara says, and belive me, she's done it several times, much to the disgust of the F-22 FWS guys at Nellis. They don't like her at all.

JN1

Wolfman said: ↑
When it comes out on DVD, send me a copy, will you?
No probs, I'll make it a signed copy.
I'm still trying to decide whether to shave my beard or not. There are an awful lot of grey hairs beginning to appear and I look younger without it (yes, I am a bit vain ).

From page 80

Matt Wiser

Assuming Lisa wants to give Kara up, and I doubt that very much. Every CO Kara's had has felt the same way, and there have been people from the 450th at Isley, the 48th at Lakenheath, and the 4th at Seymour-Johnson showing up at Mountain Home and trying to acquire her services-much to Lisa's disgust. Hell, I didn't want to give her up when I ran the 335th, and there were other F-4 units trying to get Kara's services, both during the war and after. Kara's a Squadron CO now, for Pete's sake, and some of those units seem to have forgotten that.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
One thing my reservist found out in his research was one of the ways the ALA tried to get people motivated to fight-besides using family as hostages. Seems their commissars tried to get across the idea that if the rank and file were caught, they'd be shot without trial. Considering that was the fate the ComBloc gave guerillas-real or suspected-or civilian reprisal victims, it does seem ironic, no? Quite a few ALA leaders, though, did meet that fate-some call it Battlefield Justice. Another thing was how factionalized the ALA was-and there were even fire-fights between some of the factions, much to the displeasure of the KGB, but the GRU applauded-they thought the whole idea was a wasted effort, anyway.</p>
Interesting that the ALA had to resort to such lies, fear and intimidation to get their people to do what they want, through claims of tactics that were a mirror image of their own SOP- makes one wonder how many of them, even among the true believers, either didn't really want to be out there, or were cowards at heart- okay with bullying & massacaring civilians in the name of the 'revolution' or whatever they called it to put a positive spin on their power grab, but not in doing any of the real heavy lifting towards that end... Suppose that's why they got on so well with the KGB, especially rear-area security, types: similar personalities. Also makes one wonder if trying to list the ComBloc operations that weren't hobbled by factional inighting would be easier than listing all those that were.

Matt Wiser

From what I've read, and what my reservist found, most of the leadership were pretty much cowards when it came to facing regular Army or Marine troops, or even guerillas-especially if the guerillas were led by SF advisors. They were perfectly happy to oppress their own people, and help do the KGB's bidding, but when it came to facing M-1s or M-60s with Bradleys or M-113s, with artillery, aircraft, and attack helos in support, forget it. If they got hit with a full-scale attack, the ALA would more often than not disintigrate. But what does one expect when the officers and NCOs were chosen more for political reliability than competence? He's also found that, on a number of occasions, there were battlefield mutinies, where rank and file killed their officers, NCOs, and political commissars, and then surrendered. And they never did go into combat at any level higher than a battalion, and with KGB Motor-Rifle units behind them-for obvious reasons. There were a couple times in Central Texas when we in 335 were told to hit the Soviet second line, and not positions on the front line, and I suspect that was because the ALA unit that the KGB was babysitting was going to defect or surrender en masse, and the KGB had to be taken out. As for infighting, didn't Panzerfaust mention Black Nationalists clashing with Weather Underground types-among other such disagreements? It wouldn't have taken much to stir up such trouble.....better they expend their ammo against each other, hmm? The GRU didn't like the idea of the ALA in the first place, and some of the clashes behind the lines may have been instigated by the GRU to discredit the whole ALA concept.

Teleology

Matt Wiser said: ↑
In most cases where medical personnel were accused of collaboration, the charges were dropped, especially if one could prove that ComBloc personnel were treated first at AK point. There were exceptions, of course. Several of those exceptions-treating ComBloc personnel, regardless of injury first, ahead of civilians who were more seriously hurt, wound up in court. A couple of hospital admins wound up going to the slammer for 15-25 for such behavior.
Well yeah, giving preferential treatment to the enemy voluntarily as a way to curry favor with occupiers is one thing; but I don't blame those who, even under lighter restrictions (not at gunpoint) during the occupation treated both sides on a "greatest urgency first" basis out of their professional obligation. I would hope that even in Free American territory that medical personnel still treated enemy wounded, though given the propaganda accounts of wartime events (the propaganda from our side, I mean, recounting stories from the war) that might not have been the case.

Matt Wiser

One thing that enemy wounded had in their favor was that they were automatically treated as prisoners of war, and got the same medical care our wounded received. When I crossed the Rockies with a dozen other downed aircrew after six months of E&E with the resistance, we found an outpost of 7th ID near Sallida, CO, and were taken into town for a meal and a medical checkup. After lunch, the municipal hospital was our next stop, and while we were either being checked out or waiting our turn for a checkup, a Dustoff UH-60 arrived with a patient-he was a downed Soviet MiG-27 pilot shot down SE of the town. He got the same medical treatment any of our guys and gals would've gotten, even though he'd just been bombing one of 7th ID's forward outposts. The AF treated downed enemy pilots the same way: if injured, they'd be taken to the base hospital straight away. I'm sure 951 has stories of downed Soviet pilots or shipwrecked Soviet sailors being taken to sickbay on his destroyer if they were in need of medical attention, or Sloreck treating EPWs during his service while he accompanied a Marine unit as their surgeon.

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Not a problem: if she does lose, she will demand a rematch. Kara may be wing XO when she leaves the 390th-Lisa doesn't want to lose her to some other base like George, Seymour-Johnson, Isley on Saipan, or LeMay down in Baja. I do know the Lakenheath Wing's CO does want her, but Kara's turned that down twice in her career: she's got a Golden Lab, and doesn't want to put her dog in quarrantine for six months. Btw, Kara's record against F-22s is 12-4-1. And this is against the F-22 Fighter Weapons School guys: the best F-22 drivers in the world. They just don't like her at all. But right now, her squadron is playing the bad guys to the Singapore AF fellas learning their F-15SGs.
One thing my reservist found out in his research was one of the ways the ALA tried to get people motivated to fight-besides using family as hostages. Seems their commissars tried to get across the idea that if the rank and file were caught, they'd be shot without trial. Considering that was the fate the ComBloc gave guerillas-real or suspected-or civilian reprisal victims, it does seem ironic, no? Quite a few ALA leaders, though, did meet that fate-some call it Battlefield Justice. Another thing was how factionalized the ALA was-and there were even fire-fights between some of the factions, much to the displeasure of the KGB, but the GRU applauded-they thought the whole idea was a wasted effort, anyway.</p>
Good, I'll hand him his orders when he shows up today.

I guess that goes to show you that the GRU had some genuine brainpower, unlike the bullies the KGB preferred. I remember hearing what the KGB did to a fellow 533 B/N who ended up in their 'oh-so-tender care':rolleyes:. He never made it home, but the guerillas, who we'd saved not more than three weeks prior to this paid those assholes back in spades, which we claimed paid back whatever debt they may have owed us for saving their bacon.
Last edited: Dec 16, 2009

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
One thing that enemy wounded had in their favor was that they were automatically treated as prisoners of war, and got the same medical care our wounded received. When I crossed the Rockies with a dozen other downed aircrew after six months of E&E with the resistance, we found an outpost of 7th ID near Sallida, CO, and were taken into town for a meal and a medical checkup. After lunch, the municipal hospital was our next stop, and while we were either being checked out or waiting our turn for a checkup, a Dustoff UH-60 arrived with a patient-he was a downed Soviet MiG-27 pilot shot down SE of the town. He got the same medical treatment any of our guys and gals would've gotten, even though he'd just been bombing one of 7th ID's forward outposts. The AF treated downed enemy pilots the same way: if injured, they'd be taken to the base hospital straight away. I'm sure 951 has stories of downed Soviet pilots or shipwrecked Soviet sailors being taken to sickbay on his destroyer if they were in need of medical attention, or Sloreck treating EPWs during his service while he accompanied a Marine unit as their surgeon.
Who'd you do your E&E with, anyways, if you can tell us?

JN1

I'm sure that the CO of the 48th would be very keen to get her. The pilots of the 493rs TFS need a bit of their big headedness knocked out of them. For some reason over the last few years they've apparently gotten a bit big for their boots; they're not popular with the Beagle crews of the 48th, as well as the aircrew of the 20th TFW at Upper Heyford, never mind their RAF hosts. A mate of mine is a Typhoon pilot at RAF Leuchars and he hasn't many good things to say about the 493rd.
The Raptor pilots from the 36th TFW and the 32nd TFS as well as the Eagles of the 20th TFW are far more popular, principally because they don't act as if they are the best pilots in the universe.

Apparently the after the incident with the Spanish Typhoons the laughter from RAF Upper Heyford could be heard as far north as RAF Lossiemouth, never mind that coming from the the 48th's Beagle drivers. Everybody thinks they needed taking down a peg, or ten.

TheMann

Well, I came to Red Flag. I came, I saw, I conquered.

Kara and Kelly got their shot at me this morning. And just like I had told them, I got the both of them. Kara made it hard though, she really knows her business in the F-15E, but me and two of my wingmen triple-teamed Kelly. I wonder how mad she is at that.

I got to give them credit, those two women know their business and and know it very, very well. 95% of pilots even in F-22s would get beaten by them. Heck, two of my wingies got wasted by the two of them. I told both of them to not feel bad about losing, especially since they nailed those two wingmen, and I said it without a hint of arrogance. Kara said quite clearly she'll get another shot at me someday. I gotta admire those two, not too many guys would wanna mess with them, that much is for sure. :cool:

Wolfman

TheMann said: ↑
Well, I came to Red Flag. I came, I saw, I conquered.

Kara and Kelly got their shot at me this morning. And just like I had told them, I got the both of them. Kara made it hard though, she really knows her business in the F-15E, but me and two of my wingmen triple-teamed Kelly. I wonder how mad she is at that.

I got to give them credit, those two women know their business and and know it very, very well. 95% of pilots even in F-22s would get beaten by them. Heck, two of my wingies got wasted by the two of them. I told both of them to not feel bad about losing, especially since they nailed those two wingmen, and I said it without a hint of arrogance. Kara said quite clearly she'll get another shot at me someday. I gotta admire those two, not too many guys would wanna mess with them, that much is for sure. :cool:
And when she does show up for that rematch, she'll have one of my Marines as her WSO, Mann. Between Starbuck's knowhow and Marine Corps guts, you're smoked, sir.

Matt Wiser

They didn't like it at all: I was in the Wing Ops Office at Mountain Home listening in. When it was over, both Kara and Kelly Ann were cussing very loudly over the radio, and it made a lot of folks blanch. A comms Master Sgt. who's been around for a long time said he never heard anybody use the invective Kara and Kelly Ann were using-even during the war. They actually heard two of the best F-15E drivers in the Air Force (active or reserve) lose-to the same guy. Lisa and I met them on the flight line, and they were right pissed. And yes, they do demand a rematch in the future. And they'll get it. Not right away, but it'll come.

Kara's one of three finalists for the job of Wing Ops Officer (an essential job-and one that helps learn how to run your own wing) right now in the 366th, and chances are, she'll get it. When Lt. Gen John Kyle (Commander 10th Air Force) visited Mountain Home a few weeks ago, he asked Lisa if there were attempts to "steal" Kara (he'd heard some of the nonsense that's been going around). She replied in the affirmative, and he told her that if help was needed to keep Kara in the 366th, all Lisa had to do was pick up the phone and ask. When you've got a three-star in the corner with you, it helps. A lot. Every F-15E wing wants one of the few remaining WW III combat vets still on active duty, and I don't blame them. I've even tried to get Kara to join the 419th! (she politely declined)

On the E&E, there were 14 of us at the peak: 7 AF (four F-4 crew, one A-7 driver from CO ANG, and an F-111 crew from 27th TFW), three Navy(one F-4 RIO and two A-7 drivers), two USMC (A-6 crew from VMA(AW)-121), and two Army (UH-1H guys from UT NG attached to 7th ID) One of the Army guys got himself killed (he fell 200 feet down a mountain trail and smashed his skull on a fallen tree-not a good way to go), and one of the A-6 guys stayed with the guerillas to be their military advisor until an SF A-Team could get there. 12 of us walked out in early May '86, a very scruffy bunch, all dressed for the occasion with AKMs, and very much in need of a bath. The Army gracefully let us shower, get cleaned up, and gave us new clothes (they burned what we were wearing), and directed us to a cafe for lunch-where we ran into Colonel Bella-and had to be told not to shoot him! (we kept the AKs on us-the Army suggested we do so as there had been Spetsnatz activity west of the Rockies-and that AKM is still on the wall of my office at Hill) The medicine the doctors at the local hospital gave us for worms and other parasites, though....not so fun.

The ALA and "auxiliaries" fully deserved (and still do) whatever comes to 'em. I mentioned before that my crew chief at the time we were at Cannon AFB during PRAIRIE FIRE wanted to toss one down the intake of the plane. He needed to be reminded that there was a lot of paperwork involved afterwards, and besides, it'd ruin a perfectly good J-79 engine. The Army offered a bunch of captured auxiliaries to work on the base as janitors, cleaners, and so forth, and MAG-11's CO not only said no, but "HELL, NO!" We preferred the Warsaw Pact EPWs for that-Poles, Czechs, and a few East Germans.

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
They didn't like it at all: I was in the Wing Ops Office at Mountain Home listening in. When it was over, both Kara and Kelly Ann were cussing very loudly over the radio, and it made a lot of folks blanch. A comms Master Sgt. who's been around for a long time said he never heard anybody use the invective Kara and Kelly Ann were using-even during the war. They actually heard two of the best F-15E drivers in the Air Force (active or reserve) lose-to the same guy. Lisa and I met them on the flight line, and they were right pissed. And yes, they do demand a rematch in the future. And they'll get it. Not right away, but it'll come.

Kara's one of three finalists for the job of Wing Ops Officer (an essential job-and one that helps learn how to run your own wing) right now in the 366th, and chances are, she'll get it. When Lt. Gen John Kyle (Commander 10th Air Force) visited Mountain Home a few weeks ago, he asked Lisa if there were attempts to "steal" Kara (he'd heard some of the nonsense that's been going around). She replied in the affirmative, and he told her that if help was needed to keep Kara in the 366th, all Lisa had to do was pick up the phone and ask. When you've got a three-star in the corner with you, it helps. A lot. Every F-15E wing wants one of the few remaining WW III combat vets still on active duty, and I don't blame them. I've even tried to get Kara to join the 419th! (she politely declined)

On the E&E, there were 14 of us at the peak: 7 AF (four F-4 crew, one A-7 driver from CO ANG, and an F-111 crew from 27th TFW), three Navy(one F-4 RIO and two A-7 drivers), two USMC (A-6 crew from VMA(AW)-121), and two Army (UH-1H guys from UT NG attached to 7th ID) One of the Army guys got himself killed (he fell 200 feet down a mountain trail and smashed his skull on a fallen tree-not a good way to go), and one of the A-6 guys stayed with the guerillas to be their military advisor until an SF A-Team could get there. 12 of us walked out in early May '86, a very scruffy bunch, all dressed for the occasion with AKMs, and very much in need of a bath. The Army gracefully let us shower, get cleaned up, and gave us new clothes (they burned what we were wearing), and directed us to a cafe for lunch-where we ran into Colonel Bella-and had to be told not to shoot him! (we kept the AKs on us-the Army suggested we do so as there had been Spetsnatz activity west of the Rockies-and that AKM is still on the wall of my office at Hill) The medicine the doctors at the local hospital gave us for worms and other parasites, though....not so fun.

The ALA and "auxiliaries" fully deserved (and still do) whatever comes to 'em. I mentioned before that my crew chief at the time we were at Cannon AFB during PRAIRIE FIRE wanted to toss one down the intake of the plane. He needed to be reminded that there was a lot of paperwork involved afterwards, and besides, it'd ruin a perfectly good J-79 engine. The Army offered a bunch of captured auxiliaries to work on the base as janitors, cleaners, and so forth, and MAG-11's CO not only said no, but "HELL, NO!" We preferred the Warsaw Pact EPWs for that-Poles, Czechs, and a few East Germans.
Has Kara agreed to the idea of a Marine backseater for the rematch? If she doesn't like the guy I'm sending, let me know six months ahead of the rematch so that I can got throught the WSO course and do the job myself, will ya?

JN1

My battalion captured quite a few AKs during the war and we've still got a few of them. I've shot most of them at one time or another and I found I couldn't get anything like the accuracy I could get with the SLR, or later the L85A2.
They are pretty robust, though, which is handy in the sort of situation you found yourself.

Wolfman

Location:D/FW Metroplex
Has anyone here heard any of the old wartime rumors about the Air Force picking up old early-production A-6Es from Davis-Monthan?

sloreck

During my wartime travels I treated all sorts of COMBLOC EPW/wounded: with 4/14, Charlie Med 1st Med Bn & MAGTF Surgeon on Tarawa. When we hit Petropavlosk we even took some severely wounded Sovs with us when we left as what was left on that base was not adequate to treat them, and MEDEVAC by the Sovs from Petro was a non-starter, if we'd left them they would have died. When we retook Guam had to restrain a Guamanian ANG partisan when he lost it seeing us trrating NK wounded - he wanted to shoot all of them because of the way the NKs had treated his people. Even treated some ALA - whether they were later executed not my call - did not enjoy doing it but my professional oath and Navy Regs were clear on the issue.

The civilian docs behind enemy lines were in a tough position. Failure to take care of COMBLOC personnel would mean, at a minimum that your clinic or hospital got no vaccines, antibiotics, etc. Folks don't realize that, especially under wartime conditions with decreased nutrition & sanitation readily treatable disease can carry off large numbers. Even if no personal risk, failure to do your doctor thing for COMBLOC sick and wounded (as your oath does require) would mean seeing innocent civilians, especially children who are always at highest risk in wartime, die from treatable disease.

Remember in peacetime we docs treat all sorts of criminals (whether brought in off the street or from prisons). Comes with the territory.I can honestly tell you everybody who I operated on got the best I could give them based on the circumstances of the day.

Wolfman

sloreck said: ↑
During my wartime travels I treated all sorts of COMBLOC EPW/wounded: with 4/14, Charlie Med 1st Med Bn & MAGTF Surgeon on Tarawa. When we hit Petropavlosk we even took some severely wounded Sovs with us when we left as what was left on that base was not adequate to treat them, and MEDEVAC by the Sovs from Petro was a non-starter, if we'd left them they would have died. When we retook Guam had to restrain a Guamanian ANG partisan when he lost it seeing us trrating NK wounded - he wanted to shoot all of them because of the way the NKs had treated his people. Even treated some ALA - whether they were later executed not my call - did not enjoy doing it but my professional oath and Navy Regs were clear on the issue.

The civilian docs behind enemy lines were in a tough position. Failure to take care of COMBLOC personnel would mean, at a minimum that your clinic or hospital got no vaccines, antibiotics, etc. Folks don't realize that, especially under wartime conditions with decreased nutrition & sanitation readily treatable disease can carry off large numbers. Even if no personal risk, failure to do your doctor thing for COMBLOC sick and wounded (as your oath does require) would mean seeing innocent civilians, especially children who are always at highest risk in wartime, die from treatable disease.

Remember in peacetime we docs treat all sorts of criminals (whether brought in off the street or from prisons). Comes with the territory.I can honestly tell you everybody who I operated on got the best I could give them based on the circumstances of the day.
I heard rumors that some of the doctors who were supposedly really warming up to the Commie bastards would help torture downed airmen. Do you personally know if there's any truth to that, or was the person I heard it from talking out his ass?

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: ↑
They didn't like it at all: I was in the Wing Ops Office at Mountain Home listening in. When it was over, both Kara and Kelly Ann were cussing very loudly over the radio, and it made a lot of folks blanch. A comms Master Sgt. who's been around for a long time said he never heard anybody use the invective Kara and Kelly Ann were using-even during the war. They actually heard two of the best F-15E drivers in the Air Force (active or reserve) lose-to the same guy. Lisa and I met them on the flight line, and they were right pissed. And yes, they do demand a rematch in the future. And they'll get it. Not right away, but it'll come.
Now, now, as I told them both, I have the stealth fighter and they still damned near had me. I'm not gloating on that one, I had practiced for two solid months beforehand to the point I could fly the F-22 blindfolded, and they still made me work hard for that one. Those two are serious fliers and they know their business.

Teleology

There's a psychologist who has gotten pretty rich with his book about how the surprising number of American collaborators with the Soviets during the war had to do with how impossible we had all thought it was that we could actually be invaded. Like, nuclear apocalypse was one thing but having Warpact troops land in your backyard was another entirely and the sheer shock of it simply put a certain type of person with no real communist sympathies over the edge. Of course most of his book sales have been in Europe, where he currently lives. I don't think people at home are interested in hearing excuses or explanations for that sort of thing.

Nikephoros

Teleology said: ↑
I don't think people at home are interested in hearing excuses or explanations for that sort of thing.
Well, invasion is ingrained in the European psyche, and perhaps for good reason. Americans aren't able to comprehend that I feel.

Trust me, I've killed plenty of collaborators. Does anyone think Posse Comitatus applied to the ALA? Hell no. Do I feel great about it? Frak No.

War isn't hell, war is worse. Why? Because there are no innocents in hell, but there certainly are in war.

Matt Wiser

Kara's interested in having a Marine WSO; Lisa's already made the offer. Start getting the paperwork going, your Marine is going to Idaho after the F-15E course. And when the rematch does come.....look for that F-22 going on the wall as a trophy. Neither Kara or Kelly Ann don't lose very often-and you have to be very good to beat either one. Now, beating both of them within a minute of each other......nobody's done that before. And probably never will again. Enjoy the victory, Mann; but they'll both be out looking for you when you come back.

From page 82

Wolfman

My schedule here at El Toro permitting, I'd also like to see the fight live and in person, if you don't mind taking a Marine Lieutenant Colonel up to watch the fight...

JN1, has your buddy called you back about that Kresta-II?

sloreck

Matt: As far as the comedy hour in Mexico City goes, those folks had best always be looking over their shoulders. There are plenty of Hispanic Americans who can blend in to any crowd in Mexico, sound local...and have grievances as bad as anyone in postwar America. All you comedians.....who is that peon 5 steps behind you..really???

Matt Wiser

Sloreck: if the nuts running the Comedy Hour from Mexico City had any brains, they'd leave Mexico for someplace where the various Intel agencies couldn't touch them-like Moscow. The rump USSR is very protective of those fellow travelers who made it there, and they keep a close eye on the Western Press-a lot more tough than they were prewar. A few assassinations down in Mexico City shouldn't be that hard to arrange. The same for those in Caracas, too. As for the radio stations, well, that's what JDAMs or Laser-Guided Bombs are for.

Matt Wiser

Wolfman: if you'd like, bring your A-6 on up and you can watch it yourself. That Wing Operations Office at Mountain Home was full of people listening to the fight on the radio; and it was like listening to the World Series. Too bad Kara's last Sidewinder was judged a miss by the ACMI telemetry, otherwise she would've nailed him. She did nail his wingmate, but that's not good enough. And like I said earlier, Kara was boiling mad when the telemetry told her she was "dead." And Kelly Ann, too. Nailing one of the best F-15E pilots in the whole Air Force, and a top Reserve F-15E driver, too within a minute of each other-nobody's done that before. And Penguin: bring a few F-16s over to Mountain Home if you could. Kara's always looking for more practice, and your guys and gals can help her teach those Singapore AF guys not to underestimate an enemy and overestimate their own abilities.

thepenguin

Matt Wiser said: ↑
And Penguin: bring a few F-16s over to Mountain Home if you could. Kara's always looking for more practice, and your guys and gals can help her teach those Singapore AF guys not to underestimate an enemy and overestimate their own abilities.
Tell me when and I'll come up with my Weapons Officer and some of the younger guys. They need the practice.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: ↑
You'll get it. Both Kara and Kelly Ann want to "teach that one-star a lesson." And your B/N ought to fit in. Especially if he can get used to a pilot and squadron CO who has a sign on the door of her office: "You don't have to be crazy to fly with us, but it sure helps!" She drove me nuts back in '87-88 when I ran the 335th TFS, but I didn't argue with her results, even if her flight liked to go in at around 100 feet AGL and 450+ airspeed, and coming back half the time with the G-Meter tripped. And being a double Ace. Kara prefers to drive people crazy when they argue with her-and they usually wind up losing. Oh, Mann: a case of Sam Adams from Kara and Kelly Ann is being shipped to your office at Seymour-Johnson. I do believe that was the bet.
I do remember that was the bet, but considering how damned close she was to getting me (I thought she had me on that last Sidewinder, boy.....), I wasn't gonna call them on it. But I'll still enjoy the beer, mind. She really wants my head, sounds like. I like that, it means I'll have to keep my skills up so I can beat her again next year. And if I its me buying the Sam Adams next year, well, at least I'll have to say I got dusted by two of the best.

Matt Wiser said: ↑
The number of those convicted of collaboration at least (and outright Treason) should convince even the most serious doubter that there were those who did not only welcome the invasion, but gleefully cooperated with the enemy. The quisling government, "auxiliaries", the ALA, and the cheerleaders in the free zones should be evidence enough. As far as those who left the country ahead of the FBI or U.S. Marshals: goodbye and good riddance. And that comedy hour from Mexico City? One of these days...you'll be like those we found in Havana-in cuffs doing a perp walk.
For most of those retards, I'd like to chuck a fucking bomb through their windows, preferably a Mk-84 or GBU-24 from a fighter. There is a difference between wanting things to change in America and welcoming an enemy onto our land. The former is quite welcome and something which has always and will always exist in our society. The latter deserve to be shot in the face as far as I am concerned.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Sloreck: if the nuts running the Comedy Hour from Mexico City had any brains, they'd leave Mexico for someplace where the various Intel agencies couldn't touch them-like Moscow. The rump USSR is very protective of those fellow travelers who made it there, and they keep a close eye on the Western Press-a lot more tough than they were prewar. A few assassinations down in Mexico City shouldn't be that hard to arrange. The same for those in Caracas, too. As for the radio stations, well, that's what JDAMs or Laser-Guided Bombs are for.
Hey, get me a spot at a base in Texas and a tanker, and I'll sort their hashes out. A Raptor CAN drop air to mud munitions, ya know, and I'd love to sort the hashes of a few of those dirtbags, simply to avenge and friends lost in the war.

Matt Wiser

Penguin: I'll see what the schedule is with Lisa (she's wing CO of the 366th) and get back, and you'll also be flying against my reservists in the 419th. My Strike Eagle drivers like beating up on Vipers-we do that to the 388th on the other side of the ramp at Hill all the time-though their new CO is a much more pleasing fella to deal with after that snob got sent upstairs to some desk job at Davis-Monthan. And we did find this out: his new boss is an ROTC grad-he'll be working for someone who didn't go to Rocky Mountain High-ROTC or OCS slang for the AF Academy. And Penguin: bring Kellie Williams with you; I'm sure Kelly Ann Ray and her would like to get together under more pleasant circumstances than a war-crimes investigation. Mann's not the only one with scores left unsettled with the Mexicans, and all we need is ramp space at Davis-Monthan or LeMay, some KC-10s for refueling, and it'll be Strike Eagles over Mexico City.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Hey 951, my reservist got his research grant. Looks like he'll be going thru those court records, and have the money to pay for all the copying! One thing he found via the National Archives was some captured documents from the Soviet side-the GRU chief for the Southern Region (Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Arkansas) was very opposed to forming the ALA, and he made no bones about it in his reports to the GRU Director in Moscow. He felt it was a waste of time, not to mention of resources and materiel, since the GRU already felt that by Fall '86, the Soviets had better think about cutting their losses, as they felt that the ComBloc had shot their bolt and outright victory was out of the question. Of course, that cabal in Moscow known as the Politburo didn't want to hear that, and the GRU Director was told to quiet any defeatist talk; The GRU turned out to be right....and too bad for a lot of people that the Politburo chose not to listen and take the GRU's advice.
Good for your reservist- I'm sure he'll find a lot of interesting material, although the sheer volume of documents associated with court proceedings as lengthy & complex as the ALA trials combined with the fact that they tend to make rather dry reading and use copious quantities of legalese will make that part of the research rather tedious.....

Those captured communications are interesting, although a bit superflous as evidence of the disfunctionality of the Soviet leadership, and their habit of believing a lot of stuff they should have disregarded and ignoring some of the stuff they should have paid attention to. By the same token, there's other stuff that it's good they got wrong.

As for the traitors & collaborators, there were far too many to claim that there weren't a lot of people who were commie sympathizers who crossed that line when the opportunity arose, although I wonder how many had been ComBloc agents infiltrated before the war, or had been subverted somehow, as I've heard that they worked closely with a lot of Central & South American organized crime groups and drug cartels. Anyways, from what I've seen, there are 4 basic reasons someone will betray their country, Money, Ideology, Conscience, and Ego. I'd imagine that most of the traitors were either motivated by ideology or a mix of money & ego, but again, I don't suppose it's all that important unless one has the need to psychoanalyze one of them to figure out a motive in preparation for a trial, and most of them have gotten the dates with ropes, bullets, or jail cells that they so richly deserve, and I suppose it's only a matter of time before those 'hiding' in Mexico, Venezuela, & North Korea get what's coming to them. Afraid Mexico City is a bit outside of 5" (or 16") range though.

Wolfman

TheMann said: ↑
Hey, get me a spot at a base in Texas and a tanker, and I'll sort their hashes out. A Raptor CAN drop air to mud munitions, ya know, and I'd love to sort the hashes of a few of those dirtbags, simply to avenge and friends lost in the war.
Want some company on the run? If so, VMA(AW)-224 is ready, able, and willing to come along for the ride!

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Wolfman: if you'd like, bring your A-6 on up and you can watch it yourself. That Wing Operations Office at Mountain Home was full of people listening to the fight on the radio; and it was like listening to the World Series. Too bad Kara's last Sidewinder was judged a miss by the ACMI telemetry, otherwise she would've nailed him. She did nail his wingmate, but that's not good enough. And like I said earlier, Kara was boiling mad when the telemetry told her she was "dead." And Kelly Ann, too. Nailing one of the best F-15E pilots in the whole Air Force, and a top Reserve F-15E driver, too within a minute of each other-nobody's done that before. And Penguin: bring a few F-16s over to Mountain Home if you could. Kara's always looking for more practice, and your guys and gals can help her teach those Singapore AF guys not to underestimate an enemy and overestimate their own abilities.
Just give me about a weeks notice and I'll grab one of my unit's pilots to fly me up. Remember, I'm a B/N myself, so I have to get someone to fly the damn plane. Damn, I wish I'd been able to convince my pilot from during the war to come with me as my XO, but, no luck there...

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Penguin: I'll see what the schedule is with Lisa (she's wing CO of the 366th) and get back, and you'll also be flying against my reservists in the 419th. My Strike Eagle drivers like beating up on Vipers-we do that to the 388th on the other side of the ramp at Hill all the time-though their new CO is a much more pleasing fella to deal with after that snob got sent upstairs to some desk job at Davis-Monthan. And we did find this out: his new boss is an ROTC grad-he'll be working for someone who didn't go to Rocky Mountain High-ROTC or OCS slang for the AF Academy. And Penguin: bring Kellie Williams with you; I'm sure Kelly Ann Ray and her would like to get together under more pleasant circumstances than a war-crimes investigation. Mann's not the only one with scores left unsettled with the Mexicans, and all we need is ramp space at Davis-Monthan or LeMay, some KC-10s for refueling, and it'll be Strike Eagles over Mexico City.
Hell, I'll even let you guys carry the bombs, I'll ride shotgun in came some of the Mexican AF idiots decide to try anything stupid. Just send us the tankers, and it'll be bombs away. Maybe I can get my brother to park his carrier within range of Mexico City, too.

Wolfman

I'll bring my entire squadron of A-6Fs along for the party!:cool:

Matt Wiser

As long as you leave a few MiGs for us, Mann. As long as you do that, your wing can fly shotgun for us anytime. If we didn't have target folders for Mexico City, Hermosillo, Durango, Guadalajara, and many other targets down there-at both the 366th and the 419th, I'd be very surprised. And that's all I'll say on that. Give us the ramp space at a nearby base like Davis-Monthan or LeMay, some tankers, the targets, and we'll help take care of unfinished business down there. As long as those various rebel groups keep the leftie government in Mexico City entertained, all we need to do is sit back and watch. There's half a dozen serious and about two dozen minor insurgencies going on down there, last I heard. How much you want to bet we're running guns to most of 'em? Oh, and the UN tabled the Mexicans' complaint about Baja becoming a State-again, CNN said today. The only supporter of the resolution in the Security Council was the rump USSR, of course. The FER abstained, and the other members voted to table the resolution. And when they lost, both the Mexican and Soviet delegates walked out, as usual.

Matt Wiser

Sloreck did some amphibious raids into Kamchatka and the Kuriles, and that's about it as far as U.S. forces into the Soviet Union went-unless there were some very black operations that went on, and I'd be very surprised if there weren't any. Of course, we won't hear about those ops until those who went on them are deceased. It does raise the question of who was providing BDA for SAC's EASTERN EXPRESS missions into Siberia, though. It's mostly been satellite recon, some very good SR-71 jockeys, and so forth. If, and I do mean IF, there were assets on the ground doing BDA-along with other activities, they're likely classified at such a level that only the CIA director and a few others know.

Nikephoros

So you didn't hear about the raid on Arkhangelsk? I know it was publicized somewhere...

Matt Wiser

I'm pretty sure that was part of 6th Marine Division that did that; then they had to get ready for GULF HAMMER. Still, blowing up the Soviet Northern Fleet's main ordnance storage depot (again-it blew up once before, in 1984) put a big crimp in Soviet Naval activity in the Atlantic. At least the Navy feels it was worth the price: 50% casualties to the raiding force. The Marines, I think, might disagree.

Nikephoros

Matt Wiser said: ↑
I'm pretty sure that was part of 6th Marine Division that did that; then they had to get ready for GULF HAMMER. Still, blowing up the Soviet Northern Fleet's main ordnance storage depot (again-it blew up once before, in 1984) put a big crimp in Soviet Naval activity in the Atlantic. At least the Navy feels it was worth the price: 50% casualties to the raiding force. The Marines, I think, might disagree.
I served aboard the destroyer USS O'Bannon (I actually serve on an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer IRL) during that raid. Inspired me to want to become a corpsman, but since I couldn't cross-rate (My rate was too in need) I had to wait until my enlistment expired.

In the Army, I was part of a battalion attached to the Canadian Army. We ended up taking some of Russia's Arctic Islands from them.

Teleology

I was just a teenager back during the war and even though my hometown was occupied (as I've mentioned, with the situation with the hospital staff from that time that are either still working or retired in the town) my family was fortunately in the safe-zone. I didn't mind working during the war, getting my hands dirty to help outproduce the invaders and whatnot, but the place my family was stranded at for the duration of the war was a college town and during that time I really grew to respect and admire the students at the university. They really went out their way to contribute to the war effort and were the backbone of the whole town's morale. The way they were treated after the war due to their liberal views and the subsequent post-war reactionary backlash has soured me on the whole "true partisans keep fighting" revenge kick the nation has been on ever since. Hence why I refuse to believe that either communist infiltration or cooperation between liberals/socialists and the enemy paved the way for the invasion or were behind the bulk of the collaboration movement in occupied territory.

From where I'm standing the true facts of history, that the bulk of the collaborators were opportunists and those completely shell-shocked at the idea that America could be invaded, have been covered up by the government and society ever since the end of war. Surprisingly during the war, with everyone in free America working together, liberals weren't persecuted. But ever since the war ended anyone with a dissident point of view has gotten it in the neck.

I suppose it's never occurred to anyone that the old Soviet Union preferred to take over the lives of capitalists rather than work with the leftists and radicals they despised, whose reformist and anti-establishment views completely opposed their own totalitarian system. From what I've heard the post-war rump state is even worst, retreating into neo-Stalinist rhetoric as a way to compensate for their defeat. So excuse me if I find the idea of the fellow travelers and other soft-pink socialists that sought refuge in this once-great country living out their days in the rump-Soviet-state patently ridiculous.

People tend to forget that while it was mainly right-wing survivalists in occupied territory who formed the bulk of the partisans and anti-Soviet guerrillas, that many of the most effective resistance movements operating from the inside were formed by leftist groups, who had experience opposing authoritarian figures.

So that's why I always hate chats like this, because it seems like you can't get together former partisans, their hanger-ons, and veterans of the big one without a bunch of people starting to talk about how great it would be to go murder and terrorize some of those folks who don't fit in, who survived ruthless purges of "revisionist" leftists by the Soviet occupiers only to be driven out of the country on a rail once the liberation forces rolled through.

So, again, forgive me if I don't get all warmed up inside by the idea of going and blowing up the liberal ex-pat community in Mexico City just because one or two genuine collaborators might be hiding among them, using their outspoken criticism of the post-war regime here in the states as camouflage.

((ooc: great thread guys, just figured it needed a counterweight argument to keep it plausible ))

From page 84

BigWillyG

Wolfman said: ↑
My schedule here at El Toro permitting, I'd also like to see the fight live and in person, if you don't mind taking a Marine Lieutenant Colonel up to watch the fight...

JN1, has your buddy called you back about that Kresta-II?
Yeah. He says it was, probably the Yumashev. made it out of the action without much damage he said. His ships harpoons only got one hit on her.

Nikephoros

Teleology said: ↑
You believe that propaganda about Hall being the Fearless Leader of the ALA government in the Southwest? From what I heard the Sovs dug up some power-hungry local businessman and let him be the figurehead of the repressive anti-insurgent measures in Dallas and the surrounding area, in order to keep the worst of the blame off of their own troops and thus make things easier in the strategic areas they directly occupied.
That is the story that I heard as well. But the businessman did take to the job pretty well.

The CPUSA were democrats, they didn't fare any better under the Soviets than anyone else. I mean sure, I believe the uncovered records that pre-war they got funding from the Ruskies, but that was a waste of money if they were trying to build a communist fifth column in America. I mean, wasn't Hall the guy who believed that communism in America could only come from the ballot box?
Well, I wouldn't call the CPUSA democrats, but they definately weren't in favor of the ALA regime's brutality.

Of course, by the standards of modern American society not believing the propaganda just makes me a wacky conspiracy theorist...
Welcome to the club. There is definately way more to all of this than the Democratic/Republican propaganda organs would have you believe. I've only touched upon the true extent of ALA activities, and have only used public sources on what I've said so far. Unfortunately, I can't say anymore without breaking all sorts of Federal laws. Unlike those senators who accidently leaked troop movements during the war.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
A FRAM I was as far as the Navy was willing to go, it seems. I do know from various books that the Marines loved having those gun destroyers around for their fire-support abilities, and they would get in very close to shore along the Gulf Coast for that reason. That would be the same reason those Forrest Sherman-class destroyers got reactivated, would it not? Not very useful out on the convoy lanes, but when you needed a lot of 5-inch shells on target someplace....like when the ship Lisa's sister was on paid a 3:00 AM wake-up call to Banes in Cuba. 300 5-inch rounds on the port, a nearby SAM site, a coastal SSM site, and sinking a Soviet freighter in the port for good measure.
TheMann said: ↑
FRAM I is as old as the Navy was willing to go, as far as I am aware. The battleships got called back simply because of the guns - the same reasons the Forrest Sherman class also was reactivated.
I'm a bit surprised that a FRAM I Gearing was as far back as the Navy was willing to go, even for a bombardment ship, as the handful of Fletchers & Sumners lying around would have been better at that, having more guns. It was a pretty persistent story that the brownwater sailors in LA were reactivating the old Kidd (the Fletcher-class DD in Baton Rouge, not the DDG variant of a Sprucan the navy got cheap from Iran) for a fire-support ship, but again, even now, I'm having a hard time finding consistent sources on which old destroyers & smaller combatants were reactivated.

As for the Forrest Shermans, they were retired in the early 1980s because of age and worn machinery. By that time, there were effectively 3 variants of the class. The first was the DDG conversions, 4 ships (Decatur, John Paul Jones, Parsons, and Somers), which in the mid-60s had the aft 2 5" guns replaced with a Mk. 13 misslie launcher & an ASROC, had the same hull sonars as an Adams DDG mounted and were slightly inferior to an Adams in that 1 of the missile illumination channels was inferior in that it used the radar on the gun director, and had less gun power. Decatur & John Paul Jones were part of the 'Puget Sound Squadron', along with Turner Joy.

The second were the ASW mods, performed in the late 60s on 8 units (Barry, Davis, Du Pont, Jonas Ingram, Manley, Blandy, Morton, & Richard S. Edwards) (the other 6 in the class never had it performed due to budget cuts). This mod involved a bow mounted sonar dome, an enlarged superstructure for extra electronics, a VDS mounted on the fantail, and an ASROC replacing mount 52 (the superfiring aft 5"). Except for a helicopter, these were about equivalent in capability to the 1960s vintage frigates, although it was much harder to upgrade them with things such as jury-rigged SAMs, & machine guns due to a lack of deck space (a couple did have a variant of the Army Chaparral SAM mounted, lord knows how); the ASROC was modified to allow a couple cells to be capable of firing Harpoons, & usually 1 or 2 were so loaded.

The third were the 6 remaining in the original gun configuration (Forrest Sherman, Bigelow, Mullinnix , Hull, Edson, & Turner Joy, which were most useful for bombardment, & had the same sonar upgrades as the DDG conversions, but limited in their capability to do anything with it. However, they had the most room for jury-rigged upgrades such as Sea Sparrow (at the expense of restricting mount 53's firing arcs) and Harpoon, making them adequate for acting as part of an escort group as an ASuW platform), and were most valued for bombardment and surface action missions. Hull was also part of the Puget Sound TF, but was a CTL after being wrecked in an ambush by Soviet small craft in close quarters with ATGMs & aircraft autocannon, plus a strafing run by a Fishbed loaded for close air support. It was proposed to replace mount 52 during the war to make them general purpose destroyers, but the program was ended after Forrest Sherman & Mullinnix had been so modified due to low priority and the loss of Hull & Edson making the other two too valuable for their NGFS capability to modify like that.

Overall, the Forrest Shermans could still perform valuable service, not just as gun platforms, but as escorts, and for the most part, were at least as useful as say a 1960s vintage frigate without a helo.

The Gearings that were brought back were also somewhat useful as escorts as the FRAM I conversion included major sonar upgrades & an ASROC (although adding SAMs would have required removing a second 5" mount; ASROC was fitted to launch Harpoon & a single Army-type 40mm Borfors was mounted where the 5" mount removed in the FRAM conversion used to go. The helipad & hanger originally fitted for DASH was modified to accept a light helicopter, as had been done with Gearing FRAM Is sold to Taiwan, South Korea, Argentina, & Spain; Bausell, the one which was a part of the Puget Sound TF carried a Marine-operated AH-6, which was very useful in dealing with the assorted small craft & FACs the Soviets operated.

Teleology

((ooc: Forget it. Complicated sociopolitical discussions about the morally gray universe don't have a place in a discussion based on a good 'popcorn flick' and the kind of survivalist wish-fulfillment that the far nerdier, including myself, get their thrills from with zombie apocalypse and post-nuclear-apocalypse scenarios.))
Last edited: Dec 21, 2009

Matt Wiser

It was Bigelow that made the gun run on Banes; Lisa's younger sister was serving as a deck officer aboard that ship when they did the bombardment. Six weeks of blockade duty, and not firing a shot, got on the captain's nerves. And so, before heading back to Jacksonville, he decided on his own to shell Banes. The Cubans got a serious wake-up call, POWs at the nearby POW camp enjoyed the sound and light show, and the harbor was blocked for several weeks while a sunken Soviet freighter was cleared. Only problem was that the destroyer squadron commander wasn't happy with their little cruise, and gave the skipper a serious dressing-down. CINCLANT, though, was more than pleased.

Wolfman

DD951 said: ↑
When the war started, Intrepid was a museum ship on the west side of Manhattan, & would thus have been caught in the blast when NYC bought it. Even if Intrepid wasn't sunk, she would have suffered severe damage and be too radioactive to use, even assuming retrieving her from Manhattan wouldn't have been too dangerous, considering how much work has gone into decontamination over the past 20 years and even now, rebuilding hasn't started. Remember, with the target ships at Bikini in 1946, which were much less powerful bombs, the target ships within several miles, except for a couple subs anchored underwater, were all dangerously radioactive in that their hypothetical crews would have died within a few days of radation poisioning had they stayed on board. Furthermore, it proved impossible to adequately decontaminate even the ones they towed back to Mare Island for expirements in the shipyard, & they were sunk as targets off California within a couple years. Even the support ships which steamed through the blast area afterwards required massive overhauls that involved stripping the entire ship down to bare metal, chemical scrubs, and repainting them, replacing all of the seawater piping & connected systems, and replacing everything non-metallic topside & in non-armored parts of the superstructure in order to be safe to use again. Although decontamination techniques have certainly improved since then, it still would have been too risky and cost-ineffective to salvage and repair Intrepid, assuming that could have been done in the first place. Also note that it took several months to reactivate Yorktown and the mothballed Essex-class ships (Hornet, Bennington, Oriskany, and Shangri-La), without any nasty surprises such as nuclear attacks.

From earlier in the thread, I know there are a couple people who have connections with decontamination and reconstruction efforts in NYC- anybody know what the current status of Intrepid is?

Don't know what happened in Boston, or whether it would have been necessary for ships there to flee- I know that there were ComBloc incursions into New England, but that Electric Boat and Bath Iron Works continued to pump out warships, while Massachusetts & Salem were reactivated & played prominent roles in the fighting.
Matt Wiser said: ↑
Most of the ComBloc incursions into New England were Spetsnatz raids and the like; and half of them weren't directed at any military target, but to just plain terrorize civilians. I went through New England about ten years ago, visiting a friend at Pease AFB in New Hampshire, and other than the occasional crashed Bear or Backfire still on the ground, you'd hardly know there'd been a war. Except for the war memorials that commemorate the sons and daughters of New England who went off to fight. As far as the Constitution and Cassin Young go, they're still at Boston Navy Yard, but they were moved to up to Quincy for safekeeping in case of an attack on Boston. I've toured Old Ironsides, and if you haven't, do take the time if you're ever in Beantown-it's worth it. The Pease AFB Museum has a very impressive collection-from WW II, Korea, Vietnam, the Cold War, and of course, WW III, and it's the largest base museum in New England. That friend of mine at Pease now runs the 509th Bomb Wing at Whiteman AFB, flying the B-2.
Thanks, Matt.

Wolfman

BigWillyG said: ↑
Yeah. He says it was, probably the Yumashev. made it out of the action without much damage he said. His ships harpoons only got one hit on her.
So there was a Kresta-II present... my skipper wouldn't believe that I'd seen one.

Matt Wiser

You're very welcome, Wolfman. Now, if you don't mind a shameless plug, when your time for the war college comes up, may I suggest the Air War College at Maxwell AFB? They have instructors from non-AF backgrounds, and students from the Navy and Marines as well as foreign military. And Panzerfaust is one of the instructors there.

Hey Mann: I heard from the Scott Brothers (well, their PR folks): Wings of the Phantom opens on Memorial Day Weekend, with the Hollywood premiere two weeks before. It'll be an unofficial reunion of the 335th TFS, as every surviving air and ground crew has been invited to an advance screening. Lisa and I were offered a Gulfstream charter flight to LAX, but we'll be taking more appropriate transportation: my F-4. But they'll be paying for the JP-8, and we get a suite at the Century Plaza Hilton. (nice!) The movie will have a director's cut when it comes to DVD, and that presumably has an unrated scene with Kristy Swanson as the naked CSP gal and that episode. (we still get a laugh at that poor Cuban SOF guy being dragged into camp by a gal waving an M-16 and only wearing combat boots!)

951: Wasn't the idea to reactivate the old Kidd in Baton Rouge just to get her guns back in working order? My reservist found a book at the University of Utah's library called Brown Water Navy on the Mississippi, and it says that the plan was just to get the guns back in order in case of a serious attack on Baton Rouge. They did get the guns back online, but never did crank the engines.

Wolfman

Matt Wiser said: ↑
You're very welcome, Wolfman. Now, if you don't mind a shameless plug, when your time for the war college comes up, may I suggest the Air War College at Maxwell AFB? They have instructors from non-AF backgrounds, and students from the Navy and Marines as well as foreign military. And Panzerfaust is one of the instructors there.
When my time comes, I'll seriously consider it!

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
951: Wasn't the idea to reactivate the old Kidd in Baton Rouge just to get her guns back in working order? My reservist found a book at the University of Utah's library called Brown Water Navy on the Mississippi, and it says that the plan was just to get the guns back in order in case of a serious attack on Baton Rouge. They did get the guns back online, but never did crank the engines.
I kind of figured the guns were what they wanted her for, as I'm not sure how else a Fletcher still in her WW2 configuration could have been useful, although I'm a bit surprised they didn't get the engines running, even for power generation, let alone getting her moving, as there would have been a lot of places the guns would have been useful- maybe they were too far gone to be fixed with the resources they had, or didn't have enough people who could operate a steam turbine plant available.

Matt Wiser

I finished the book, and checked the end notes: the reason the engines weren't cranked was for lack of available expertise. The power for the guns was supplied from shore, and she was never recommissioned. My cousin Jacqui says the new Kidd survived, and is part of Nimitz's battle group based in Everett, WA nowadays. She has an ROTC friend who's the XO, and the usual rivalry between those with "water wings" and those who are in Naval Aviation is constant. They were busy down in Indonesia on the last cruise, dealing with some local pirates in a very direct manner. (i.e. bombing the hell out of them and shelling what was left)

A tidbit from Colorado: according to the Denver Post's online edition, the dispute between the AF Academy and the Wings Over the Rockies Museum regarding the tail section of my first F-4, 73-0515, is now in Federal District Court in Denver. The Museum is challenging the AF Academy for the right to display the tail section, as they had contacted Walsenberg authorities and asked for the tail. The Academy stepped in, since my then-WSO was an Academy grad (and one who wasn't snobby towards OCS and ROTC people), they want the tail for display. Both sides have dug in their heels and won't budge. So it goes to court.

Lisa's sister Joanne has some other interesting stories about the Bigelow, 951, if you're interested. They caught a Tango that was running on the surface due to snorkel problems, and gunned her down with 5-inch. The sonarmen provided enough info to fire a Mark-46 torpedo, and that was that-this was 270 miles NE of Nassau, on 17 Jan 88, with no survivors. Oh, they did cross the equator one trip, doing a tanker convoy from Cape Town to Philly. Joanne still has the home video of the crossing of the line ceremony....and it's pretty raunchy (I've seen it).

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
I finished the book, and checked the end notes: the reason the engines weren't cranked was for lack of available expertise. The power for the guns was supplied from shore, and she was never recommissioned. My cousin Jacqui says the new Kidd survived, and is part of Nimitz's battle group based in Everett, WA nowadays. She has an ROTC friend who's the XO, and the usual rivalry between those with "water wings" and those who are in Naval Aviation is constant. They were busy down in Indonesia on the last cruise, dealing with some local pirates in a very direct manner. (i.e. bombing the hell out of them and shelling what was left)

A tidbit from Colorado: according to the Denver Post's online edition, the dispute between the AF Academy and the Wings Over the Rockies Museum regarding the tail section of my first F-4, 73-0515, is now in Federal District Court in Denver. The Museum is challenging the AF Academy for the right to display the tail section, as they had contacted Walsenberg authorities and asked for the tail. The Academy stepped in, since my then-WSO was an Academy grad (and one who wasn't snobby towards OCS and ROTC people), they want the tail for display. Both sides have dug in their heels and won't budge. So it goes to court.

Lisa's sister Joanne has some other interesting stories about the Bigelow, 951, if you're interested. They caught a Tango that was running on the surface due to snorkel problems, and gunned her down with 5-inch. The sonarmen provided enough info to fire a Mark-46 torpedo, and that was that-this was 270 miles NE of Nassau, on 17 Jan 88, with no survivors. Oh, they did cross the equator one trip, doing a tanker convoy from Cape Town to Philly. Joanne still has the home video of the crossing of the line ceremony....and it's pretty raunchy (I've seen it).
My money would have been on mechanical deteriation as for the reason they never got the old Kidd up and running, as the same basic power plant was used in the Fletchers, Sumners, and Gearings, and heck, there were a couple dozen FRAM Is in service until about 1980, when most of them got sold off to foriegn navies or sinkexed (did get a few back from Spain & S. Korea) through circutious means) & even still a Gearing in commission until 1983 (William C. Lawe), not to mention that steam plants were used in just about everything non-nuclear until the 70s, so I would have thought that there would have been quite a few Navy vets with steam engine related ratings around- guess all of them must have been scooped up by the reactivation of Alabama, and the other steam-powered battleships, carriers, and cruisers.

Kind of a small world- the new Kidd's sister Callaghan was assigned as to the Seattle NRF detachment as the major ship in 1999, replacing the old Tattnall, alongside a PGM squadron based there, and I was her skipper for a little over a year and a half (Feb. 2002- Oct. 2003), and we exercised with the Kidd quite a bit during that time.

If you have them, I'd be interested in hearing the stories about Bigelow. Sound pretty interesting- catching a sub on the surface like that... I thought this was World War III, not II . Both of the subs we got were underwater & a serious threat. Crossed the line a few times on Australia convoy runs myself- let's just say that the ceremony was a lot more fun once one got to help run it instead of being the 'guest' the second time around.

BigWillyG

Wolfman said: ↑
So there was a Kresta-II present... my skipper wouldn't believe that I'd seen one.
Glad to be of help. My freind is kinda sore about that Kresta actually, feels Scott should have suck her with that Harpoon. Apparently the warhead failed to detonate and the missile just drove through the ships upperworks.

BigWillyG

With all the talk about the old Fram destroyers brought back into service I was wondering if anyone knows about any old diesal subs being brought back into service. I just read a French naval historians book on the war and he talks about how a Guppy III in Turkish service sank the old Sverdlov in the Med.
Does anyone know if we brought any old Guppy or Tang boats back into service? I know the Barbels used to help with convoy reconaissance and got a few sinkings.

Matt Wiser

Yeah, the video's pretty raunchy. Bigelow was mainly on the Cuba Station, handling the blockade, and doing the occasional shore bombardment (the run on Banes was unauthorized, though), but had three run-ins with Soviet subs and won them all. The Tango was caught on the surface as its snorkel wasn't working for some reason, but an Echo-I was nailed 350 miles E of Nassau on 27 Sep 1987 (again, no survivors), and a Foxtrot was destroyed 145 miles E of Jacksonville on 8 March 1988, but this time had a survivor-a torpedoman from the forward torpedo room. Seems the Foxtrot tried getting to the surface after taking a Mark-46 hit, and the torpedoman was the only one to get into the lock-out chamber and use his escape gear. Everyone else fed the fish. Incidentally, you quoted the Exec as they were going after the Tango, and she was trying to make a run for Banes when found. How'd they know the snorkel wasn't working? Well, as they say, "I can tell you, but I'd then have to kill ya." My guess is a 1980s version of ULTRA. But you can bet a lot of that stuff is still classified-it wasn't until 1974 that WW II COMINT began to be declassified, so it'll be a while longer before WW III's will.

Panzerfaust 150

Hey all,
It's been real busy of late...and the semester has finally wound down. I have lurked for the discussion as long as I could. Nikephoros, (I spelled that right?), Teleology, you're right to an extent. Politics didn't matter as much as opportunity when it came to collaboration. I ought to know, I interrogated lots of auxiliaries, and a few ALA types, both during the war, and when I worked as an investigator for the Tier 1 and Tier 2 War Crimes trials.
We had one guy who was the pre-war head of the John Birch society for South Texas...and he turned up in an Auxiliary uniform. Guy was a bottom feeding slime who had turned in his friends and eventually, his own family in McAllen when they tried to organize a partisan unit..he did it for an extra food ration..just for himself. When we caught him? He had a "harem" of some young pre-war society girls..rich they may have been pre-war, but I don't care, nobody deserved that.
I also knew of a young female partisan who was from Austin. Her name was Bliss, and she had Purple hair, a pro-choice sticker on the stock of her AK and thought the Republicans were as evil as the Communists and had a Sparticist musician boyfriend who was in her partisan band. I understand she's since gone on to be a professor at UT-Austin. She gave some devastating testimony as to some of the "antics" of the Soviet occupation authorities in Austin. They shot her mother for being a "government official" (She was a letter carrier for the Post Office).
The war cut across all ways..are the leftists getting it in the neck? Yes, but in some cases, some (not all) show as much sense as a guy who gets into a metal suit of armor, go out to the golf course during a thunderstorm, stand in a puddle, hoist a sword aloft and scream, "All gods are bastards". Not smart.
Some, like an old professor of mine at UVA, he was a transplant from CUNY-Brooklyn. He was an old, unrepentant New Dealer, and he despised the Soviets. He told me he'd been a Dove pre-war..not now. But some idiots tried to set fire to his house in Charlottesville. Some of us veterans put paid to that I am proud to say.

Wolfman

BigWillyG said: ↑
Glad to be of help. My freind is kinda sore about that Kresta actually, feels Scott should have suck her with that Harpoon. Apparently the warhead failed to detonate and the missile just drove through the ships upperworks.
How's he feel about my Kashin kill?

thepenguin

Panzerfaust 150 said: ↑
Hey all,
It's been real busy of late...and the semester has finally wound down. I have lurked for the discussion as long as I could. Nikephoros, (I spelled that right?), Teleology, you're right to an extent. Politics didn't matter as much as opportunity when it came to collaboration. I ought to know, I interrogated lots of auxiliaries, and a few ALA types, both during the war, and when I worked as an investigator for the Tier 1 and Tier 2 War Crimes trials.
We had one guy who was the pre-war head of the John Birch society for South Texas...and he turned up in an Auxiliary uniform. Guy was a bottom feeding slime who had turned in his friends and eventually, his own family in McAllen when they tried to organize a partisan unit..he did it for an extra food ration..just for himself. When we caught him? He had a "harem" of some young pre-war society girls..rich they may have been pre-war, but I don't care, nobody deserved that.
I also knew of a young female partisan who was from Austin. Her name was Bliss, and she had Purple hair, a pro-choice sticker on the stock of her AK and thought the Republicans were as evil as the Communists and had a Sparticist musician boyfriend who was in her partisan band. I understand she's since gone on to be a professor at UT-Austin. She gave some devastating testimony as to some of the "antics" of the Soviet occupation authorities in Austin. They shot her mother for being a "government official" (She was a letter carrier for the Post Office).
The war cut across all ways..are the leftists getting it in the neck? Yes, but in some cases, some (not all) show as much sense as a guy who gets into a metal suit of armor, go out to the golf course during a thunderstorm, stand in a puddle, hoist a sword aloft and scream, "All gods are bastards". Not smart.
Some, like an old professor of mine at UVA, he was a transplant from CUNY-Brooklyn. He was an old, unrepentant New Dealer, and he despised the Soviets. He told me he'd been a Dove pre-war..not now. But some idiots tried to set fire to his house in Charlottesville. Some of us veterans put paid to that I am proud to say.
When you were doing the interrogations, did you ever talk to or read documents pertaining to a Mikayla Fossett? Me and Bridie knew her before the war and she was a die-hard Marxist then (she was a total bitch too). I'm (well, Bridie is too) wondering if she joined the ALA and if she did, what happened to her.

Panzerfaust 150

thepenguin said: ↑
When you were doing the interrogations, did you ever talk to or read documents pertaining to a Mikayla Fossett? Me and Bridie knew her before the war and she was a die-hard Marxist then (she was a total bitch too). I'm (well, Bridie is too) wondering if she joined the ALA and if she did, what happened to her.
Heard the name associated with some ALA stuff during my contract work at the Tier 2 trials. She was reported KIA in an airstrike on Tulsa's "New Economic Authority" office 10-14-85. I don't know any more than that...she's wanted as a material witness in some matters regarding "redefining the economic paradigm" (re: Forcible confiscation of just about everything that wasn't nailed down.) and "Social Equity Counseling" (aka: encourage folks to turn on their neighbors in Chinese style "criticism" sessions because the guy down the block got a VCR before you did). I don't know what they think she knows..but the warrant's still outstanding.

Wolfman

She must've really been a bitch if the Commies liked her...

From page 86

Matt Wiser

Yeah, there were some of those spoiled brats who wound up in the 335th's enlisted ranks. Some of 'em raised eyebrows among the Sergeants when they said they'd joined the Air Force to avoid being drafted-like back in the '60s. But they learned the ropes pretty fast, and I even sent a couple to the West Coast AF OCS (at Vandenberg AFB) in 1988-89. A few others wound up being career NCOs-and they're still in the service. The rest did their time in, and once the war was over and their enlistments were up, went back to civilian life-if they could. The ones who stayed in had one thing in common: their families had lived either in the occupied zones and hadn't reestabished contact after the various offensives or the cease-fire, or lived in one of the nuclear target areas. Those people I have a lot of respect for, because while they may have had disagreements with the way the country was going prior to the invasion, once the shooting started, they wanted to serve, but on their terms-hence joining the AF or one of the other services instead of being drafted. The idiots who were collaborators, fifth columnists, or out-and-out ALA or auxiliary members-and don't apologize for it, though...they fully deserve whatever comes their way, period. Those are the fools you usually see on the news protesting at Resistance Day or Victory Day celebrations-before the angry vets show up to teach them a lesson-and a well-deserved one, I might add. But are there folks caught in the net of being accused of collaboration who don't deserve it? Absolutely. And there are those out there who need to take a breath, calm down, and remember that "liberal" doesn't equal "traitor." Especially if the person being targeted was too young to do much of anything during the war.

Speaking of apologists, that blowhard filmmaker down in Caracas is shreiking about the upcoming war-crimes trials for the Cubans nailed during the invasion. Seems CNN got an interview with the man, and he's unapologetic about it, saying that it's "victor's justice." Hey, those guys will have a better chance in either a military tribunal or Federal Court, than if we turned them over to the Cuban Provisional Government-and there'd probably be a series of lynchings shortly thereafter. One of these days, he'll eat a Tomahawk or a JDAM....keep it up, fella, and that'll be coming your way. Kara was practically begging to fly down to Caracas, Lisa said, and Kelly Ann, too-she was livid after seeing the interview on CNN's World News Today.(I don't blame her at all) How'd Kelly Ann get it out of her system? She went to the range and fired off several clips from her Sheriff's Office-issued H&K USP .45. (she's a Deputy Sheriff in civilian life, remember)

Mann, are these Medal of Honor cases just getting started, or have they been under review for some time? I need to let people know if they have to find time for interviews about specific incidents during the war, and who'll be coming to do the interviews.

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Hey Panzerfaust, when's your trip to the Russian Republic and the FER scheduled? That POW-MIA conference still on? And how are the 'Stans cooperating on those matters? There's a few SAC bomber crews still MIA over the 'stans that SAC wants resolved-not to mention the families. And have they considered going to the various Chinese warlords and asking for info on several Buff crashes within their territory-I mentioned two which crashed near Hong Kong with only one survivor from each getting to HK, the other crew members are still MIA.
February from the sound of it. We've been told the 'Stans are sending a joint delegation, but it's a question of records kept and the locations of the crashes. In some cases, nobody outside a given valley or village may even KNOW about a given wreck. There was a case about oh, 6-7 years ago, when a couple of cops in the Russian Republic, who were investigating a "peeping tom" on some farmstead east of Smolensk, they instead found out the farmer had built a barn out of the remains of a nearby B-52 crash. We recovered five bodies that had been buried in the local cemetery. The locals just hadn't seen it necessary to report anything as there had been no survivors from the crash.

The local governments have offered rewards to people who report wrecks and dud ordinance, but things like this still happen.

sloreck

You guys are way too modest. I am sure those MoH nominations are well deserved. Anyone who has the POW ribbon or resistance service medasl on their ribbon rack has a good chance of deserving something more, but military bureaucracy being what it is will probably never get it. Some medals may be given but never worn, in my case only got permission to put my Navy Cross on my rack during the time I was recalled for the Cuban invasion - my Marine 2 star put it on publicly. Was for an op when I was MAGTF surgeon on Tarawa, where & when still can't say, all I was allowed to wear for that was a purple heart cause the scar was pretty obvious. So get to wear it, but all the citation says is "for actions during classified operations" and its undated.

I agree with those who get upset about the ideal liberal=traitor. Having said that, folks like the comedians in Mexico City and the fatso in Caracas long ago passed from liberal through deluded and on to traitor. As for Victory Day demonstrators if they get in my face I will kick their ass, and in any case will gladly pay their airfare for a 1-way to the rump USSR, Venezuela etc with the proviso they permanently sign away their US citizenship.

Matt Wiser

There should be satellite photos than can be used to look for wrecks, especially in the cases where there were more than one aircraft on a mission, and the other planes had a note of where the loss occured. One thing I do remember is that hardly anyone shot down over the USSR came out of the rump USSR alive. Most of the POWs who did come back from there were either in FER or Russian Republic territory when things began to fall apart. There was one bunch whose prison train was attacked while they were in one of the 'Stans, and they wound up being given an Il-76 by the rebels to fly out-they went to Pakistan, IIRC. It beats the Baron 55 story in how they got out: those guys (and gal) had to walk through half of China, with warlords, bandits, and other assorted scum providing numerous adventures along the way to Hong Kong.

Some of those idiots on talk radio and cable TV do need to calm down. Get on the Prozac, or whatever, because they do need it. But as for the demonstrators, or the apologists down in Mexico City or Caracas, they do deserve whatever comes their way, especially if they've got auxiliary or ALA service hiding in their closets. The bunch now awaiting trial down in Miami ought to have good lawyers-they'll need 'em, considering the charges range from simple collaboration during wartime to outright treason, incitement to mutiny (those broadcasts aimed at military personnel), and even some suspected of wartime sabotage. Anyone convicted of the latter three ought to go straight to the gallows once convicted, though with appeals being a lot streamlined today than they were prewar, it's an eighteen-month wait for them to get their just desserts. That ex-UCLA prof is one of 'em, but it's a shame the prof who hid his auxiliary service from the University of Colorado is still in Mexico City. One interesting thing is that all those lefties who've fled the country never give up their U.S. Citizenship....because they want to come back "When our Progressive views are more welcome." (that was the ex-UCLA guy in the LA Times before he left) At least he and a few other fellow lefties did come back-in handcuffs and red jumpsuits.....and they'll face the music for their activities in Havana.

I'm still wondering why I'm being considered for a Medal of Honor, and so are both Lisa and Kara. We just went out and did our jobs the best way we knew how. Kelly Ann, though, is pretty sure that her name came up for surviving the unpleasantness following the Open Water escape, and the two plus years in solitary after that. She told me, "Colonel, I'd be deeply honored to receive the MOH, but the POWs who didn't come home are the ones who really deserve the medal. The real heroes are the ones who only gave name, rank, and number, and they didn't come back." I told her, "Kelly, if this goes through, you can do them a great honor. Dedicate your medal to those friends of yours who didn't come back from Cuba, and wear it for them."

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Yeah, there were some of those spoiled brats who wound up in the 335th's enlisted ranks. Some of 'em raised eyebrows among the Sergeants when they said they'd joined the Air Force to avoid being drafted-like back in the '60s. But they learned the ropes pretty fast, and I even sent a couple to the West Coast AF OCS (at Vandenberg AFB) in 1988-89. A few others wound up being career NCOs-and they're still in the service. The rest did their time in, and once the war was over and their enlistments were up, went back to civilian life-if they could. The ones who stayed in had one thing in common: their families had lived either in the occupied zones and hadn't reestabished contact after the various offensives or the cease-fire, or lived in one of the nuclear target areas. Those people I have a lot of respect for, because while they may have had disagreements with the way the country was going prior to the invasion, once the shooting started, they wanted to serve, but on their terms-hence joining the AF or one of the other services instead of being drafted. The idiots who were collaborators, fifth columnists, or out-and-out ALA or auxiliary members-and don't apologize for it, though...they fully deserve whatever comes their way, period. Those are the fools you usually see on the news protesting at Resistance Day or Victory Day celebrations-before the angry vets show up to teach them a lesson-and a well-deserved one, I might add. But are there folks caught in the net of being accused of collaboration who don't deserve it? Absolutely. And there are those out there who need to take a breath, calm down, and remember that "liberal" doesn't equal "traitor." Especially if the person being targeted was too young to do much of anything during the war.

Speaking of apologists, that blowhard filmmaker down in Caracas is shreiking about the upcoming war-crimes trials for the Cubans nailed during the invasion. Seems CNN got an interview with the man, and he's unapologetic about it, saying that it's "victor's justice." Hey, those guys will have a better chance in either a military tribunal or Federal Court, than if we turned them over to the Cuban Provisional Government-and there'd probably be a series of lynchings shortly thereafter. One of these days, he'll eat a Tomahawk or a JDAM....keep it up, fella, and that'll be coming your way. Kara was practically begging to fly down to Caracas, Lisa said, and Kelly Ann, too-she was livid after seeing the interview on CNN's World News Today.(I don't blame her at all) How'd Kelly Ann get it out of her system? She went to the range and fired off several clips from her Sheriff's Office-issued H&K USP .45. (she's a Deputy Sheriff in civilian life, remember)

Mann, are these Medal of Honor cases just getting started, or have they been under review for some time? I need to let people know if they have to find time for interviews about specific incidents during the war, and who'll be coming to do the interviews.
I always thought that in a way, those people who didn't really have a home to go back to because wherever that was ravaged by ComBloc occupation or a nuke target had the most poignant stories of all those I served with. Actually, the two enlisted personnel on the Turner Joy who stuck most in my mind were a couple of the 'spoiled brats' (although by the time they reported aboard, most of that had been driven out of them). They were these two , young women, about 18 or so, who reported aboard in November,1986 as seamen apprentices, and were assigned to my division as fire-control techs. From their records, and a brief interview with them, turned out that they were both rich high-society, old-money types from NYC, best friends, and appeared to be something of the spoiled-brat type before hand, although not really political (possibly vaguely left-leaning if they had bothered to care before the war), more of the kids who are given everything with no real responsibility or supervision type. Anyways, they were in California on some sort of last-minute vacation before their senior year of high school, when the war started and NYC got nuked, and pretty much killed their families and just about everyone they knew. All they really had left were each other, and a handful of friends and acquaintances scattered across the country, an all too common tragic story resulting from this war. (True, they did inherit a bunch of stuff, but other than a couple bank accounts, most of it was worthless for all practical purposes, and still is even now or will be for the next few years, by virtue of being located in Manhattan or getting trashed in the resulting chaos nearby, making them much better off than most refugees). Somehow, they got diplomas in California, and ended up enlisting in the Navy, somehow managing to stay together all throughout training. From this background, I honestly didn't expect that much out of them, but I was surprised when they turned out to be quite good at what they were doing, and after a little bit, really knuckled down and fit right in. Not what I would have expected from them before the war. By the end of the war, they were both 2nd-class petty officers, eligible for promotion in a couple more months, and the skipper and I were talking about sending them to OCS. From the crew association, who keeps track of everyone who was part of the crew, they took a year to try to sort what was left of their old lives out and then went to Stanford- one did NROTC there, making a career out of the Navy- I understand she's now the chief engineer on the Edward J. Richardson, one of those new Burke-class destroyers, based out of Pearl; the other is some sort of engineer for Boeing now- guess getting anywhere near their old lives must have been too painful for them.

On another note, I'm glad to see that those of us who were there recognize the stupidity of the talk show hosts who promote the idea that 'liberal = collaborator & traitor' and those who follow them- not only do a lot of innocent people get caught up in it, but it also provides a smokescreen of sorts for those who actually deserve such ire for actually collaborating or being the dumb jackasses who try to justify them. Interestingly, a lot of those hosts and their more vocal followers suddenly get quiet when someone asks them what they did in the war...

As for the actual collaborators and their apologists, well, there's nothing stopping them for leaving if they have passports, no outstanding warrants or travel restrictions as a term of probation/parole, and they can find another country willing to take them. Indeed, rumor has it that the INS is surprisingly helpful in processing passport applications for such types who decide that there are greener pastures abroad. Of course, I'd caution them that if they go to Mexico, Venezuela, or N. Korea, to be careful what they say (and by extension those governments), lest they find a way to earn themselves a treason charge, or say something that pushes us to the point of deciding to settle an old score or two- as their 'friends' who tried hiding out in Cuba are finding out, there are plenty of courtrooms waiting for those who aren't killed in the fighting, and neither the military nor civilian justice systems are particularlly forgiving of collaboration, sedition, or treason during wartime. And if someone in Europe, S. America, Asia, or some parts of Africa would be willing to take them, being too obnoxious would be a great way to get oneself deported whether or not an extradition treaty exists, as more than a few have found out to their misfortune...

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Isn't Oriskany a museum at Pensacola nowadays? I remember she was being moored there when I went to Eglin AFB-that was during my "flying a desk" tour at TAC HQ-for some kind of conference, but that was a few years ago.

How many other surrenders of Soviet Subs were there? Given that the Soviet surface navy was pretty well demolished by the end, not that many survived, and all the bases got lost to the rump USSR during the breakup. The FER and Russian Republic have decent navies-subs mostly, while the Ukraine got the Black Sea Fleet, with the Baltic States getting some of the Baltic Fleet's coastal and patrol assets.
A check of the Historic Naval Ships Association's and Pensacola's tourism websites show that Oriskany has been a museum there since 2001- apparently she was in commission for Carribean mop-up duty and replacing Lexington as the training carrier, based there until 1997, and it took a couple years to work out the paperwork, get the money, perform the necessary modifications on the ship, and buy and develop the shore-based parts of the museum.

As for surrendering subs, it's my understanding that the Foxtrot I mentioned suddenly surfaced in the middle of the harbor at Port Angeles after the cease-fire, raised a white flag, and more or less docked at the Coast Guard pier to the astonishment of the National Guard detachment garrisoning the town, an infantry company, backed up by a platoon of M-60s and a battery of 105s, all of which were aimed at the sub. Just one of those crazy stories- that skipper must have been a lunatic, although somebody must have gotten in trouble for letting that sub get there undetected and unopposed in the first place...

There was another surrender I know of after the ceasefire- a Tango surfaced in the middle of an escort group near Pearl and hoisted a white flag- surprised they didn't get blown out of the water before they could surrender, but oh well- I understand the intel and Navsea people had a field day, and the brass wanted to keep her in service after performance trials as the ASW equivalent of an aggressor, but spares turned out to be too much of a problem. Don't know what became of her. Scuttlebutt has it that another 3-7 subs surrendered and even a destroyer of some kind, but I've never seen anything to confirm those stories.

redteddy23

I was in Oxford having just entered secondary school all I remember was my mum being detained for a few months for being a member of CND and a 6th former telling me the school air raid drills would be a waste of time if Greenham Comon was ever taken out by the Soviets. He died retaking Iceland and his name was engraved on the school memorial under all the boys who died in earlier wars.

Matt Wiser

I'll bet someone's head rolled: given the Everett Naval Base, Bremerton Navy Yard, and Bangor Sub Base, not to mention the ports of Tacoma and Seattle all being in such proximity....There were a few aircraft defections: I mentioned an Su-24 landing at Sheppard AFB, and there were a few others, including a Backfire that landed at Griffiss AFB (Rome, NY), and a few fighters, too. The Backfire defection cost the head of the Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) his job, but the AF isn't keen on saying why, other than the fact that the plane should've been intercepted. It wasn't, and the first hint of something wrong was the Backfire in the traffic pattern for Griffss. That plane was throughly tested at Edwards AFB postwar, but it's now at the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB.

Yeah, the backgrounds of some of those radio and cable (satellite for me-I have one of the mini-dishes) hosts leave a bit to be desired. A couple of 'em were too old to be in the service during the war, but some of the others were certainly of military age. And those guys seem to have amensia about what they did during the war. But there were a couple-O'Reilly's one of them-who were in TV News during the war-hell, he even came by Cannon AFB during PRAIRIE FIRE when he was with the L.A. affiliate for NBC to do some stories about Southern Californians in the service. Back then, he was a nice guy. But that Beck fellow....ugh!

Given that NK has the Manchu Republic (which isn't much of one-they're your usual military government in a civilian disguise) on one side, the FER on the Northeast-and they'd rather have the NKs evaporate like a desert mirage-and the ROKs, I'm surprised the NKs have lasted this long since the war. Sooner or later, though....they'll fall apart, and the ROKs will pick up the pieces. And those lefties hiding in Pyongyang had better either have an escape route to somewhere planned, or have a lawyer on call for when they do get caught once the NK government falls apart. There was a show on NBC about a year ago about some of the lefties who went to Sweden and Finland, and they were saying "This is what we had in mind for postwar America, honest!" The reporter had a hard time keeping a straight face, but if they were referring to Finland before the war.....but two of 'em in Stockholm made no apologies for serving in an auxiliary unit in Oklahoma and eastern New Mexico, and these two do have prices on their heads for Accessory to Mass Murder, Incitement to Mutiny (they crept close to our lines and made propaganda broadcasts by loudspeaker), and Treason. The Swedes want to return these two, but only if the Justice Department won't seek the Death Penalty. The DOJ refuses, and so those two people know that if they step one foot out of Swedish territory, the FBI will be waiting, and a trip to the gallows may not be far behind.

BigWillyG

Not sure if this counts as defection in the same sense as what everyone else has been posting but I told my story of the Polish merchie loaded with artillery pieces ramming an escorting Soviet destroyer before surrendering to us a few months back.
On a different not thanks to everyone who supplied info on the diesal subs and reactivations.

Nikephoros

I can't identify the man who told me this (Let's just say he's high up in the Pentagon), but rumor has it that we are going to attack the rump USSR, possibly in support of Russian Revolutionaries. If this happens, does anyone have children in the Armed Forces? I expect such a war to be horrible, perhaps more horrible than our war.

Panzerfaust 150

Strictly a rumor Nike,
Truth is, the Rump USSR is in slow motion collapse. They lose about an Oblast a year to either the FER or the Republic. The LSE thinks there may not be a Rump USSR in 20 or so years. They can barely keep their people fed, and their military is hampered by all kinds of shortages. The only thing that keeps an all out war between the three from breaking out is that all three Soviet successor states, plus the Ukraine (the Baltics sold us their nukes in exchange for military equipment and advisers a few years back) have some share of the Soviet nuclear arsenal. And, by all accounts, most of it is pointed at each other, so were such a war to break out? The Russian landmass might resemble China. But, with the FER a Japanese puppet state these days, I don't see a war coming (bad for business). The Republic's mostly content to let the Rump USSR fall into their laps. Is there incidents? Monthly. But nothing is allowed to rise to the level of a full on excuse for war. Trust me, there's a reason we haven't allowed anybody but the Baltics out there to join NATO, it's not because we're still afraid of Russia, it's we don't want to get dragged into a Russian problem. So don't worry Nike, nobody's marching on Moscow.

Matt Wiser

Not likely: they've still got plenty of nukes, and so do we. That rump USSR doesn't have many friends, next to zero foreign trade, and only keeps going by police-state measures that would've made Beria proud. Sooner or later, though, unfinished business between the Russian Republic, the FER, and the Rump USSR will be settled-violently. But nobody wants to pop nukes-and all three have plenty. Why? Simple: there's assets in the Russian Republic that the Rump USSR wants, and vice-versa. And the same goes for the FER: the Rump USSR wants to reestablish the Soviet State there, but the FER wants nothing to do with that, so they have half the old Soviet Navy's missile sub force, a hundred or so SS-20s, and some ICBMs in the silos along the Trans-Siberian at Svobodnyy (SS-11s and -17s) to keep the rump USSR on their side of the Urals. It's deterrence in the simplest form: Keep to your side of the border (or the Urals, as the case may be) and we won't slag you. Supposedly, all of those nukes in the FER's hands are aimed at the rump USSR. Or so they say. The Russian Republic doesn't have much in the way of ICBMs, but they do have some Backfires, and a couple dozen missile subs-including four Typhoons-and some SS-20s of their own. All aimed at the rump USSR-again, so they say. Like the FER, they want nothing to do with the rump USSR unless it's on their terms-like surrender terms being dictated to the Communists in the Kremlin. The ex-Soviet republics (Beylorussia, the Baltics, Ukraine, the Caucusus Republics-Georgia, Armenia, Azerbajan, and the 'Stans) want nothing to do with Moscow. Period. We'll just sit back and watch and see what happens.

Nikephoros

The above points are true, and my source basically said the same thing. But knowing those bastards in office, I wouldn't keep logic in mind.

EDIT: I'm not saying it is an inevitablity. I'm just saying that the Joint Chiefs are supposedly seriously consider proposing this to the President.

OOC: I'm putting this out as disinformation.

DD951

Matt Wiser said: ↑
I'll bet someone's head rolled: given the Everett Naval Base, Bremerton Navy Yard, and Bangor Sub Base, not to mention the ports of Tacoma and Seattle all being in such proximity....There were a few aircraft defections: I mentioned an Su-24 landing at Sheppard AFB, and there were a few others, including a Backfire that landed at Griffiss AFB (Rome, NY), and a few fighters, too. The Backfire defection cost the head of the Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) his job, but the AF isn't keen on saying why, other than the fact that the plane should've been intercepted. It wasn't, and the first hint of something wrong was the Backfire in the traffic pattern for Griffss. That plane was throughly tested at Edwards AFB postwar, but it's now at the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB.
Yeah, the backgrounds of some of those radio and cable (satellite for me-I have one of the mini-dishes) hosts leave a bit to be desired. A couple of 'em were too old to be in the service during the war, but some of the others were certainly of military age. And those guys seem to have amensia about what they did during the war. But there were a couple-O'Reilly's one of them-who were in TV News during the war-hell, he even came by Cannon AFB during PRAIRIE FIRE when he was with the L.A. affiliate for NBC to do some stories about Southern Californians in the service. Back then, he was a nice guy. But that Beck fellow....ugh!
Given that NK has the Manchu Republic (which isn't much of one-they're your usual military government in a civilian disguise) on one side, the FER on the Northeast-and they'd rather have the NKs evaporate like a desert mirage-and the ROKs, I'm surprised the NKs have lasted this long since the war. Sooner or later, though....they'll fall apart, and the ROKs will pick up the pieces. And those lefties hiding in Pyongyang had better either have an escape route to somewhere planned, or have a lawyer on call for when they do get caught once the NK government falls apart. There was a show on NBC about a year ago about some of the lefties who went to Sweden and Finland, and they were saying "This is what we had in mind for postwar America, honest!" The reporter had a hard time keeping a straight face, but if they were referring to Finland before the war.....but two of 'em in Stockholm made no apologies for serving in an auxiliary unit in Oklahoma and eastern New Mexico, and these two do have prices on their heads for Accessory to Mass Murder, Incitement to Mutiny (they crept close to our lines and made propaganda broadcasts by loudspeaker), and Treason. The Swedes want to return these two, but only if the Justice Department won't seek the Death Penalty. The DOJ refuses, and so those two people know that if they step one foot out of Swedish territory, the FBI will be waiting, and a trip to the gallows may not be far behind.
I wouldn't be surprised either if someone got sacked for such a big breach of the defenses, although that sub would have had a hard time actually getting into Puget Sound- after that failed amphib attempt on Seattle and with all the nasty stuff Soviet light forcers were doing, the theater commander decided to resurrect the old 'Triangle of Fire' by installing a mini-SOSUS array, air and surface search radars to cover Admiralty Inlet, the entrance to Puget Sound, and SAM and AAA batteries, artillery, shore-based anti-ship missiles, and ASROC launchers mounted on extemporized platforms with appropriate defenses at the old Coast Artillery sites (Forts Casey, Flagler, and Worden), while several light units, such as PGMs, Coast Guard patrol boats, and some extemporized subchasers (tugs and assorted yardcraft fitted with helicopter sonars, mechanisms for launching lightweight ASW torpedoes, and a couple machine guns) patrolled a line behind the those defenses. More than one Soviet sub or FAC met an untimely end trying to get through there.

As for North Korea, my guess is that nobody wants to try taking them down because of all the gas, bio, and conventional weapons they have (maybe even nukes too) and their stated willingness to use them indiscriminately on civilians if a war happens, so their neighbors must feel it's safer to let that rotten mess collapse under its own weight, although who knows how that country keeps itself going even with everything they extort from their neighbors. Anyone want to bet that it's some sort of improvished hellish police state dystopia, where everyone not part of the party hierarchy has to constantly struggle with famine and disease?

Those collaborator and fellow traveller exiles- seems that most of them are other delusional to the point of having an actual mental condition, and as for those other two, too bad they've found a legal loophole to hide behind- ugh:mad:

Hope those rumors of us wanting to intervene in a supposed civil war that's going to happen in the rump USSR are just that, because that would be a batshit insane thing to do, hell, almost as crazy as that 'brilliant little idea' their leadership had a couple decades ago.
Last edited: Dec 26, 2009

Matt Wiser

The NKs are going to go down, but it's just a matter of when-and how violent it gets when Kim-Jong-Il goes to wherever Communists go when they die. Just as long as the Navy's keeping an eye on ships going in and out of NK ports to make sure they don't sell off their arsenal to whoever's got the most money...some of those warlords in China would like to get their hands on some of that stuff, and some Middle East countries as well.

The rump USSR, as Panzerfaust says, will go down in a few years. Just be patient and let things fall where they may (hopefully that doesn't include nukes and turn all of the old Soviet Union into a larger version of China). We don't have a dog in that fight, but if those scum-suckers in the Kremlin ever try getting out, we'll be waiting for 'em, and since a lot of 'em have indictments pending for war crimes...I'd rather see the Russian Republic and the FER gang up on the rump Soviet state, but after what he said, it's better to let them rot, then pick up the pieces when they do fall-for good. And then Soviet-style communism will finally go onto the trash heap.

Too bad about those two, but since the Justice Department and the Swedes are still trying to find a way to get them here, best not to rock the boat. The Swedes offered to try them in-country on the counts related to mass murder, but DOJ said no-we want them tried on all counts, so...At least we don't do snatch-and-grabs in Europe, but in other places...these clowns have to look over their shoulders everywhere they go. And if they can't be snatched, there's the alternative.

trekchu

Well, my Pentagon contacts suddenly get very thin lipped when I ask around if something is up, so there definitely is. Not the rump USSR though.

The slow-mo collapse however I think gives credit to the school of thought that says that the Soviets would have collapsed anyway, and probably even faster in the early 1990s.

As for defections:

Mid war we once encountered three T-80s that had white bed cloths tied to every surface. Turns out they were East Germans, forcibly conscripted and shuttled off to America. This was just after the West Germans re-joined and crossed the IGB, so for them there was no reason to fight on. IIRC one of the T-80s is now in the Colorado Springs Museum.

Matt Wiser

If something's up, those of us at Mountain Home and Hill aren't in the loop. Lisa gave half the 366th Christmas weekend off, and this sure ain't a Reserve weekend at Hill. Kelly Ann, though, had a busy week-the Sheriff had her running a speed trap-and she got revenge on her live-in boyfriend for nailing her in the 442. She got him going 62 in a 50 zone in his Chevy Blazer.

If something's up, watch for III Corps at Fort Hood and X Corps down at Fort Bradley (OOC: today's Yuma Proving Ground). If it's Mexico, they'll be first on call to go to the border. The same goes for Fort Bliss and VIII Corps. If the Mexicans are squwaking again about "The theft of Baja", well..we have about 200,000 negotiators who can express our feelings on the issue. And grab those oil and gas fields on their Gulf Coast in the process-which we should've done before the Armistice. The Mexicans still owe us a lot in reparations, and getting those oil and gas fields would pay for a big chunk of it. There's always the option of a naval blockade, too.

General Chuikov was probably the highest-ranking defector-at least the ones we know about. I'll bet his grandfather the Marshal was probably spinning in his grave when the news got back to Moscow.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: ↑
Yeah, the backgrounds of some of those radio and cable (satellite for me-I have one of the mini-dishes) hosts leave a bit to be desired. A couple of 'em were too old to be in the service during the war, but some of the others were certainly of military age. And those guys seem to have amensia about what they did during the war. But there were a couple-O'Reilly's one of them-who were in TV News during the war-hell, he even came by Cannon AFB during PRAIRIE FIRE when he was with the L.A. affiliate for NBC to do some stories about Southern Californians in the service. Back then, he was a nice guy. But that Beck fellow....ugh!
Beck is an asshole. I remember him from when I was living in Seattle before the war, he lived a couple blocks form me and we all knew him. His mother died in the late 70s in mysterious circumstances, and he by 1983-84 was the local drunk in the Seattle area. I actually hauled his dumb ass home from a bar one time when I was a teenager - I was going up to see a friend in Bellingham and he lived with his father up there. I never did manage to get the puke stains out of my 240Z.

I saw him later on, though, just as the war ended. He'd cleaned himself up and was a correspondent for ABC at that point, but he was by that point way out into la-la land in terms of political views. I last saw him when he came to my base in Texas just after the war was over, he ranted off at one of my guys who talked about now that the war was over that racism in the United States would be too. Beck popped off about how so many black people were traitors who helped the Soviets, and said to me that "that man should be court-martialed." Needless to say I threw the jackass off the base and told the AF Security guys and their South African backup crew about what he'd said. He never came back after that.

I know O'Reilly is a decent man - I am fairly liberal about many things, so him and I disagree often on things. But I also know that guy was embedded for a while with the New York NG, and he knows his business. His arch-rival Keith Olbermann I know even better - his sister was a right-seater for an F-111 crew I commanded in Texas during Prairie Fire, and him and I have crossed paths several times after the war.

As for things going on, I know my unit is keeping pretty well-trained. I do that regularly, but my superiors want my unit to keep in top shape. Apparently we're near the top of the list of units to go if something shits in Mexico, and the Joint Chiefs seem to be a little worried about that. If we go, we go, and I'll have no worries about adding a few more kills to the side of my airplane, thank you. As for the Russkies, they hate each other more than they hate us, so I suspect that's why nothing has happened over there that concerns our guys. North Korea is the same deal - the ROK on one side, Manchu Republic on the other, FER to the north and Japan nearby, and a substantial British fleet at Hong Kong, plus our guys on Okinawa. They can't do shit without somebody smacking them, and that rotten mess is gonna crumble eventually.

Matt Wiser

Hey Mann, what's the latest on these MOH awards/upgrades? Nobody's called us at Mountain Home or Hill to set up the interviews that go along with an award or an upgrade of an Air Force Cross (which I got for the E&E) to a MOH. Kelly Ann has one for her Cuba...ordeal, but Kara and Lisa don't (Silver Star, DFC, etc.).

From page 88

thepenguin

Mann: it'll depend on who's assigned to that. Also, how many SAM and ZSU sites does Mexico have?

Matt Wiser

Thanks, man. The Mexican AF isn't much when you look at the threat board, but we're not going to underestimate them if it comes to that. If it flies, it dies, pure and simple. And this time those F-22 jockeys aren't going to hog the air-to-air action. Those old MiG-21s and -23s won't last very long if and when the shooting starts. And I'd sure like to be able to paint another star or two on my F-15E.

Just got finished watching CNN: all the border towns are quiet-Nogales, El Paso, Laredo, Brownsville, and points in between Laredo and Brownsville. No Army or Marine units anywhere on the border, though the Border Patrol's been beefed up. They had reporters camped outside Fort Hood in Texas and Fort Bradley in Arizona, and nothing unusual so far. One of Hood's PAOs said that no one has been recalled, and it's business as usual. Fort Bradley's PAO said the same thing (that's 4th Armored Division, 14th ACR, and 44th ID (M) btw). If this is some idiot at SOUTHCOM's idea of an emergency war readiness exercise, especially over the holidays...there ought to be hell to pay. The only Army units alerted are X Corps in Baja-23rd ID, 11th Airborne Division, and 10th ACR (the Buffalo Soldiers). I'll bet that if this isn't an exercise, it has a lot to do with Baja's statehood being official at one minute after Midnight on New Year's. Talk about Sending a Message to Mexico City....We'll know if it's for real if the tanks and Bradleys show up in the streets of Laredo, Nogales, Brownsville, and El Paso. So far, they haven't yet, and it'll take a few days for everybody to deploy before things kick off.

By the way, doesn't the Rump USSR still have some kind of military mission down in Mexico City? Some kind of advisory group or something like that? They won't be able to do much if the balloon goes up.

BigWillyG

Things are happening fast. I have no idea how my son is doing, he's on a Virginia boat and I never hear anything from him war or peace. I hope he's ok, Mexico doesn't have much that can face down a nuke boat but if those basterds in the Rump USSR pull somthing I'll be worried.
My neice just had her MEU sent out to sea on a San Antonio, she can't say which one. Last time anyone in my family fought in Mexico they were commanded my Winfield Scott. Glad we're finally settling scores. I doubt they'll let me back in, I haven't served since the end of the war and ships like I served on are all museum pieces or razor blades.

sloreck

DD951: thanks for the good word. Got stented before any cardiac damage & feel great, only hassle is going on the low fat/no taste diet from now on - red meat will be a treat but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

On the other hand, got personal calls from 2 folks with stars - one wearing dark blue & one forest green to wish me well & tell me that it means my spring semester won't get trashed. On the other hand both told me that giving training/lectures as a civilian might be something they want me to do. I remember an old saying: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck & quacks like a duck - its probably a duck......

Panzerfaust 150

Hey all,
I spoke to some folks here at the Air War College...and those sources don't wanna go on record, but it looks as if Matt's hypothesis is correct. White House is going to make the announcement tomorrow morning. We just want to make sure the Mexicans understand..Baja's American now...and they shouldn't do anything stupid at all...lest we slice off more of the country....

Matt Wiser

The "civilian advisor to DOD" bit, hmm? At least they can't put you back in uniform.

So...this is related to Baja becoming a state at one minute past midnight on New Year's Day. The Mexicans squawked loud and long at the UN recently, and didn't like the fact that the Security Council tabled their resolution. When that happened, the Mexicans and the Rump USSR delegations walked out. Methinks we need to send some more guns to the rebels down there, even the Zapatistas (they don't like us, granted, but the common enemy first) to stir things up some more. All we're waiting for at Hill is the C-17s to fly our ground crews, Wing staff and support people (Medical, CSP, ordnance, etc.) and their equipment south. Lisa's pissed, as we're deploying ahead of the 366th, and they're the "Go" Wing for PACCOM! Passing that Wing ORI (Operational Readiness Inspection) a couple months ago must've bumped us up on the deployment schedule. If the Mexicans have any brains, they'll sulk and do nothing-unless as Panzerfaust suggest, they want more of the country sliced off-say, those oil and gas fields. And the rebels get stirred up even more.

The Mexican Air Defense System is a joke, just like their AF. A few SA-2s and -3s, hardly any radar-guided AAA, little or no central control, and the MiGs are at least thirty years old, and haven't had any avionics or weapons upgrades. All of the SAMs are around Mexico City, and once they're taken down, the Weasels won't have much to do, and the MiGs will have a short and violent life if they take off. And this time, if it happens, the Strike Eagles will get their share-can't have those F-22 jockeys hogging the air-to-air action.

Don't worry about the Rump USSR: they'll scream and yell, along with the NKs, but they won't do anything more than that. The usual worthless UN resolution will be offered, and it will be tabled (as usual). You can tell how out of touch they are when CNN reports that their Central Committee approved appointments for regional governors and party bosses-in areas no longer under Soviet control. (when those officials show up to take their posts, they're usually arrested-in some cases, they're shot)
Last edited: Dec 29, 2009

Nikephoros

sloreck said: ↑
On the other hand, got personal calls from 2 folks with stars - one wearing dark blue & one forest green to wish me well & tell me that it means my spring semester won't get trashed. On the other hand both told me that giving training/lectures as a civilian might be something they want me to do. I remember an old saying: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck & quacks like a duck - its probably a duck......
I know what that's like. I've given a few lectures at the War College, and recently one of my friends from the CIA is offering me a job as an intelligence coordinator. Pretty much an office job, but I'm starting to get too old for field work:D

OOC: My character is only 32, but meh...

Matt Wiser

Well, hello from sunny Baja, soon to be the 51st State! Nice climate, nice people, but the accomodations at LeMay AFB could be better-the AF Engineers put up a tent city large enough to house the 419th and the 366th (if they show up), so checking one's bed nightly for scorpions is a must! The guys from the 352nd are pretty decent hosts, and they fly hard. We did some DACT over the Gulf of California and those Albino Eagle drivers are good. If and when Kara shows up, they'll get a taste of her flying-and they won't like it at all, methinks. The only sign of the Mexican AF was an old MiG-19 from Guyamas, when he saw the F-15s, he ran back for home faster than he showed up. That MiG-19 looked like he was held together with spit and bailing wire, but Ivan built 'em to last under less than ideal conditions, but the pilot-looked like he belonged in a Piper Cub than a jet by the way he was flying. And the Navy's here: there's half a dozen destroyers prowling the entrance to the Gulf of California, and the cruiser Salem. Glad to see those 8-inch guns are still available if we need them. Gotta go; flying with Kelly Ann in a few, so I'll get a workout in the air.

thepenguin

Coming to you live from Holloman! We're one of three US fighter wings deployed here (us, the 148th TFW; the 120th TFW out of Great Falls, Montana; and my old unit, the 179th TFW, out of Mansfield Lahm, Ohio. They still fly A-10s to this day. The 120th flies F-15Cs.), along with the resident unit of F-22s (49th TFW). Been flying some DACM with them and the German Tornados from the German Air Force Tactical Training Center. Weather's been great for flying, especially coming from Duluth's 30 inches of snow. We got 10 F-16s fueled and loaded on alert (along with 10 F-15s and 10 A-10s) in case the Mexicans try to do something stupid. Still nothing from Fort Bliss. I got a high school buddy who's a Captain there. He's a tanker.

Matt Wiser

Kelly Ann is a good pilot to have on your side, but in this case, she was my opponent. How good is she? Well, we got each other! That MiG-19 was back (same number on the side), so they must've found another pilot, because it was being flown somewhat more competently. Lot of good that'll do him if something happens-he doesn't even have radar or any radar warning gear, so he won't see the F-15 that launches on him-let alone pick up the Slammer that sends him down. But again, when we pointed our F-15s at him, he headed back to Guyamas. And yeah, we've got 12 birds at LeMay from 419, plus another 12 Es from the 352nd, locked and cocked: fueled, armed, and ready to go. A lot of the locals are wondering what all the fuss is about, but the influx of military personnel means local bars, restaurants, and so forth are doing more business.

So Fort Bliss is quiet. If it was serious, the two heavy divisions there woud've rolled out of the base in full view of the TV cameras. Not that there's much across the river to stop 'em anyway-Juraez hasn't been rebuilt since the end of the war, and they've shelled the ruins on a few occasions because the local banditos had a habit of shooting across the river. The next border city that gets rebuilt will be the first. All of 'em look like Berlin in '45, only Berlin had more people in the ruins.

Kevin in Indy

OOC - Matt - if you have built in a place within the storyline in Baja for a new Marine, let me know and I'll try to work in my nephew.

TheMann

This guy is coming to you live from Goodfellow AFB, gang. Nice facility they got here, rebuilt after the war, used for fighters, tankers, bombers and transporters. The 325th Fighter Wing and 60th Air Mobility Wing are here, plus my crews and most of the 33d Fighter Wing. Good thing this place has big runways. The base has the best-looking accommodations I've ever seen - four seven-story buildings, each with windows on both sides, and a bunch of nice ranch houses for officers. I've got one of those right now, though I also let two of my pilots sleep here too - it's just me (wife and kids are still back in NC), the base is crowded and this place is too much for one guy.

We haven't got any mission assignments yet, but we are running exercises and we are carrying live munitions, so it seems to me that we're either trying to scare the hell out of the Mexicans. One of my F-111s fucking near crashed trying to show off for the local chicks, blasting over a football game at about 50 feet off the deck at 375 knots. Doing that in a Viper is dangerous enough, in a Vark its nearly suicidal.

My brother called today to let me know what he's got, too. His carrier is mainly covering an amphib group right now, but that group has got two amphib carriers, an Iwo Jima-class LPH, a big cruiser (probably Salem's sister ship, Newport News) and battleship Massachusetts. Everybody's got full fuel and ordinance loads, too. They're ready to land somewhere, I just wonder where. Local news covered Iowa charging out of Houston after a port visit, too, so I suspect that the Mexicans are about to get theirs.

My MOH interview was yesterday. Took almost four hours. They wanted especially to know about riding with those civilian vigilantes in Lawrence (when they found a bunch of KGB swine with wet dicks), the blasting of the New Orleans amphib group (apparently Alabama is gonna get a Presidential Unit Citation for that now) and my flights during the Siege of Houston, including getting one of my tails on my Hornet blown off by a 57mm flak gun (I HATE those fucking things......) and still managing to bring it home in one piece. I told the guys that as much as I'd love to say I am a Medal of Honor recipient, I didn't want it watered down. One response to me was "with 21 aircraft kills, four shootdowns and a bunch of hero shit to your name, brigadier, you wouldn't dishonor the name in any way." Nice to know when your peers respect you, especially in this most dangerous of competitions......

Nikephoros

Me, I'll never get the medal. I didn't do anything worthy, and even if I did, it certainly can't get out. It's alot harder to get for us ground types anyways.

Not unless we want to admit where we were buggering around. Now, my team leader deserves one, but he'll never get it, at least not until we can admit what we did. Not that he would have wanted on either.

Matt Wiser

(OOC: Not a problem: 5th Marine Division is stationed in Baja (Ensenada for Division HQ, 26th Marines and the 15th Marines-Division Artillery; La Paz for the 27th Marines, and Cabo San Lucas for the 28th Marines). Plenty of room for a new Marine.

IC: Counting down to Midnight, and so far, nothing out of the ordinary. They have CNN down here in the O Club, and the Mexicans staged a few protests in Mexico City and Vera Cruz, but they were pretty low-key (perhaps resigned to losing Baja, but they can't admit it in public), and there wasn't much of the "Yanqui go home!" business you normally see. But some of the lefties who've gone to Mexico City were there, and the usual suspects were saying the usual slogans. Hardly anyone goes south of the border, unless you're a reporter or have family there, but a CNN crew did go to Matamoros, and that city (what's left of it) was a ghost town. Only a few Mexican cops and fewer soldiers. Some heavy equipment, namely a few T-62s and BMP-1s, but not much else. When the crew got back north of the Rio Grande, other than the Border Patrol and local cops, nothing. No Army or Marine presence, or even Texas NG. The same's everywhere along the border in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona.

MiG activity, other than that single MiG-19, has been nonexistent where we are. They may only have two pilots, and not much fuel, so that may explain that-at least in Guyamas.

Hey Mann, Lisa is still at Mountain Home, and she had her interview today. She's chomping at the bit to fly down here, but so far, the 366th is still on alert, with nobody being allowed off base in either the 390th or the 391st. Any MiGs showing up in that part of the border? I haven't heard of any others besides the lone MiG-19 mentioned above.
Last edited: Dec 30, 2009

sloreck

Matt:
Love hearing USAF guys gripe about accomodations when they are living in a tent city on a fixed base, tent city courtesy of USAF engineers. Most luxurious accomodations I ever had in all my years as a doc with the Marines was as MAGTF surgeon when I had a 8'x6'x7' steel cube to myself on the Tarawa (RHIP). On shore when deployed/in combat I usually shared a 2 man pop up tent with the chaplain - when we humped he & I alternated carrying the tent. If the weather was decent, or we were in a hurry it was pad on the ground/bag on the pad/cover with the poncho, even as an O-6.

Having given you zoomies the obligatory hard time, I was always happy to see friendly air overhead zoomies or rotorheads, and did not matter what service (or even what country as long as friendly). Grunts really don't like enemy air, even with some AAA or MANPADS you feel like a bug on a tabletop.

Matt Wiser

Well, what do you expect? The AF likes having four walls and a roof over our heads when we're not flying. We'd prefer the La Paz Sheraton, but ah, well, we'll make the best of it. If nothing happens over the next few days I'm going to give people a couple days off in rotation to enjoy the beach and play tourist. Kelly Ann showed the guys from the 352nd how we fly, and they don't like her at all after she embarassed some of 'em. If the 366th shows up, they'll see what it's like to face Kara. At least the CO of the 352nd is an ex-ROTC guy, and he's pretty nice to reservists. His XO, though, is a Mile High U. (AF Academy) Grad, and he's a complete 180 from his boss. Getting beaten by Kelly Ann probably only made him worse. And I nailed him the first day we were here, so he's probably got a fit of the sulks right about now.

For those of us in F-4s, 75% of our tasking was air-to-ground, so always glad to be of service to those on the ground when they needed it.

In case you're wondering, the only Marines we've seen are the 27th Marines who are normally based here, and they're on alert, but nothing really serious. Some patrols down the coast towards the tip, and things like that, but no heavy stuff out on the street or on the roads outside town. I wouldn't be surprised if there's SEALs or other SOF slipping across the Gulf of California to have a look-see at the Mexican side and check out what's going on (if anything).

BigWillyG

You know anything about the Marines off the coast? I've got a neice with the 24th MEU on the USS San Antonio.

Matt Wiser

San Antonio ought to be in the Gulf of Mexico, as the 24th MEU's part of 2nd Marine Division. There's two carrier groups, plus New Jersey, along with the amphibous force out there, if CNN is reporting things right.

thepenguin

Jeez, Matt. I don't know. I think this is something bigger than just a projection of power for Baja's statehood. We got a battlewagon in the Gulf, a battlewagon in the Pacific, two Carrier Battle Groups, and enough airplanes to fill up JFK.

Matt Wiser

If it was more than a power projection, the Army would be involved, and none of the news networks have shown any Army units deploying. The news crews are camped out at Bradley, Bliss, Hood, and Sill, and nothing out of the ordinary seems to be going on. And the National Guard in the border states hasn't been called up. If the Mexicans do get a case of the stupids and do something, they'll regret it, have a naval blockade imposed on them so fast it'll make their heads swim, and the amphib force grabs those oil and gas fields (which we should've taken back in '89 in the first place). While Vera Cruz gets shelled into rubble (again)-remember the bombardment one of the battleships and Des Moines did a few weeks before the Brownsville surrender? Still, I've got 12 F-15Es locked and cocked, crews sitting alert, ready to go on 5 mins. notice. The 352nd has a CAP of two Albino Eagles and two Vipers up at all times, with half of the rest locked and cocked. And their F-15Es are also sitting on the ramp, locked and cocked, ready to go. If something happens, we're ready. In fact, I'm in the alert shed right now, on my laptop. My WSO is taking a nap, and Kelly Ann Ray has one of the other alert flights-and she's watching one of the bowl games on ESPN right now. If the siren sounds, we're off in five minutes from the alert horn going. We've had two practice scrambles since we got here, and the 352nd is doing the same thing. Just hold on for another 48 hours, and if nothing happens, then we've deterred the clowns in Mexico City from a terminal case of the stupids. I'd rather win this round without having to fire a shot, and not having to write any letters to NOK (had to do that enough times during the war, and several times since with peacetime accidents). But if it happens, we've got enough firepower to get it done, and done quick.