Red Dawn 20+ AH.com archive

From page 47

Matt Wiser

Didn't Shaffer wind up in L.A. for a while? I remember him being on Arsenio Hall's show on Fox in the early '90s. Thank Heaven the D.C. reconstruction job is almost done; then the final job: Manhattan. Oh, Staten Island, Newark, the Bronx, and that part of Queens within the blast zone are doing fine, but getting Manhattan cleared and rebuilt is going to be a big job.

The Mann and Panzerfaust: did either of you ever catch Bob Hope's show? And the Mann: you'd better try getting that A-7 you want for your friend: I have dibs on one of the F-4s being used for the filming when that's done. The AF relented, and Congress passed a law allowing for jet warbirds after they've been "demilitarized". Which means the gun will be a training replica, the Sparrow and Sidewinder missiles will also be training rounds, and the weapons-control equipment will be removed. But the radar will still be in working order. I suggest you get down to AMARC when you've got leave and find that A-7 you talked about earlier.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Building a new production line for the Spearfish torpedo must've been some effort. The boomers were still on nuclear alert, IIRC.

As In understand it, they made the first few by hand while they got the hang of building them. But the British engineers who came with them were rather helpful, apparently. The Discovery special talked specifically about the Spearfish, and what it meant for the US Navy's Submarine fleet.

The boomers were on nuclear alert, but they still ran into Soviet ships, and the boomer drivers, apparently, figured if they tried evasive action they'd get found, so why bother trying to go around? The Ohios in particular were black holes, even our new Seawolf class subs, which are designed to hunt Russian boomers, can't find the Ohio class subs. As a result, a bunch of the boomers got kills, USS Michigan got an aircraft carrier, Ohio got a Yankee class herself, supposedly from just 3500 yards. That's a brave Boomer pilot there.

Matt Wiser said: But that didn't mean not taking any shots if someone Red came their way. The two converted boomers used for SEAL ops, though, were the only such subs with a hunting license, however.

OOC: That didn't happen until well after the Cold War (1992 and 1993 for Kamehameha and James K. Polk, but what the heck, for the sake of argument, we'll say its been done in 1986-87.)

And as I seem to recall, those two converted boomers were both used in the raid on Vladivostok. Perhaps our friend from USS Tarawa can help me with that, am I right?

Matt Wiser said: I'm only a third of the way through the Keegan chapter on the Naval War: all that flying we're doing for the movie production kinda gets in the way of reading. We've had two flights a day, plus brief and debrief. Haven't had this much of a rush since my last combat time. At least 20th Century Fox is paying for all the fuel and other expenses....

I envy you, I really, really do. I love having my Raptors, but you get to be in a movie, whereas I am just consulting and my character is playing a smaller role. It'll still be awesome to tell my grandkids about, that's for sure. :cool: Hoes does that F-4 fly compared to the Strike Eagle? I know when I tried out a Hornet for the first time, it was just as I remember it, a wickedly maneuverable thing. Slower than the Raptor, but just as easy to fly.

Matt Wiser said: ↑The Mann: if you've seen the newspaper pics or TV of Major Kelly Ann Ray, you'll see why Showtime cast Meg Ryan in her role. Though I would've preferred Demi Moore, but beggars can't be choosers. We're still doing all the flying for her movie here, but thanks to CGI, they'll use footage of Cuba shot recently (they're glad they can do that now) and blend in the F-4s. There was talk of filming some in Cuba itself, but Major Ray (who's going to be an on-set technical advisor) vetoed that. So they'll film some in Florida, and the rest in a studio in Hollywood. Meg's halfway through her SERE preparation.....I wonder how she enjoys catching bugs (and eating them)? She should be entering the survival in captivity phase right about now.

I hope she can handle it. A lot of tough people I'm sure can't. I have seen the pics of Major Ray, and I agree with you on Demi Moore, she looks closer to Major Ray anyways. I figure if they want to film over the tropics, they could do it over the Yucatan or Jamaica or something of that nature. If you're in my neighborhood on filming, I think me and the base commander can let them in for a tour, and I'll show 'em my F-22.

Matt Wiser said: One of the older ships in the Navy that got reactivated was the destroyer Turner Joy, the last of the Forrest Sherman class destroyers. She still had her three 5-inch guns, and Keegan does give her some time, when he talks about the amphib on Seattle. That destroyer hid in some of the San Juan Islands, waited for the air strikes to start, and then came out, 5-inchers and two twin 3-inch 50s blazing. She came back to Bremerton Navy Yard without a scratch, but her 5-inch barrels needed replacing, along with the three-inch mounts. One of the Ivan-Rogov class amphibs, two Alligator-class LSTs, and a Krivak-class frigate fell victim to Turner Joy's guns. Not bad shootin'.

I seem to recall that most of the Forrest Shermans got reactivated and returned to service (OOC: They were all decommissioned in 1982-83, and they all still existed in late 1986, Barry woulda been destroyed by the Nuke that hit Washington), but Turner Joy got the most attention because of her exploits in Puget Sound. That disaster shoulda taught them that just because we don't have SAM batteries everywhere doesn't mean we aren't prepared for incoming invaders.

I think the better story might be USS Chicago. A WWII heavy cruiser that became a WWIII guided missile cruiser. For a while, there were two USS Chicagos, kinda a problem when they operated with the same battle groups, as apparently they did once.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: and the Mann: you'd better try getting that A-7 you want for your friend: I have dibs on one of the F-4s being used for the filming when that's done. The AF relented, and Congress passed a law allowing for jet warbirds after they've been "demilitarized". Which means the gun will be a training replica, the Sparrow and Sidewinder missiles will also be training rounds, and the weapons-control equipment will be removed. But the radar will still be in working order. I suggest you get down to AMARC when you've got leave and find that A-7 you talked about earlier.

I've already been there and done it. I have an A-7 on order for him and a ex-French Navy F-8 on order for me at AMARC.

trekchu

TheMann said: I've already been there and done it. I have an A-7 on order for him and a ex-French Navy F-8 on order for me at AMARC.

Back from Germany. While my wife took care of things with her father, I was allowed to visit the Rheinmetall factory where they are making these guns.... When they heard I was a vet, they showed me around the factory.

And btw, we are moving to Kentucky along with the Company. So from 2010 onwards you might get to see an early model M1 with a retrofitted but demilitarized 120mm gun driving around there, because that law also extends to tanks. My wife wasn't enthousiastic, but she understands.

Matt Wiser

Actually, there were two Ethan-Allen class boats used before the Big K and the Polk: Sam Houston and John Marshall. (Sam Houston in Pacific Fleet, John Marshall in Atlantic Fleet) A lot of the operations those four special ops boats did are still classified today: the Silent Service holds its secrets pretty well. But there's enough in the public domain to know what they did: intelligence-gathering, SEAL insertion/extraction, etc. And of course, lopping off the occasional Red that came their way. Kamehameha joined Sam Houston in PACFLT, while James K. Polk went to the Atlantic Fleet. For the former two, the Soviet Far East, North Korea, Alaska, and the coast of British Columbia were familiar waters, while the other two prowled the Gulf of Mexico, Cuba, Nicaragua, and the Kola Peninsula. Don't be surprised if the only American combat boots on the ground in Mother Russia turned out to be SEALs. It's rumored that the SEALs tried to extract the two escapees featured in the book and movie Open Water, but nothing's been offically acknowledged, well, publicly, anyway.

The Mann: Compared to the Strike Eagle, the F-4 is a generation behind. Lots of old-style instrumentation, controls everywhere (be glad the folks at McAir put the HOTAS controls in the original Eagle and the Strike Eagle), though ours were refitted with a HUD thanks to the Japanese. Below 350 knots, the F-4 handles like a Peterbuilt truck. Past Mach 1, it flies like Superman. About the only problems are size (you can see it coming) and those J-79 engines that put out a lot of smoke. But we did have the ARN-101 upgrade, with digital avionics, Pave Spike or Pave Tack capability, AIM-9Ls, extra RWRs and ECM, etc. Wish they'd upgraded the radar, too, so we'd be AIM-120 capable, but that didn't happen.

I had some FAA twerp come by the other day, to handle how my warbird will be treated. This little weasel seemed put off by the fact that there's going to be 1960s and 70s fast-jet warbirds flying around, and from his tone, this jerk didn't like it at all. He tried to get me to deactivate the ejection seats, even though the law says you can keep 'em active, for pete's sake. He did say there'd be no supersonic flight unless in appropriate airspace, minimum cruise altitude of 5,000 feet, no mock ACM unless at an airshow or in approved airspace, and so on. He did approve my registration number: NF4E515; the tail number of the plane I was shot down in was 71-0515, and this warbird will be so marked, with one exception: all of my kills will be painted on the aircraft, with the victim's type, date, and weapon used. After he left, I called his supervisor to complain about his attitude, and the guy said "You're not the first. Everyone he deals with complains about him." I should've gone to the FAA office in Vegas instead of Salt Lake: they said their inspector would've been much more positive and understanding (read: he's a vet).

Panzerfaust 150

Hey all,
Been busy with classes, good bunch of folks all around. My courses more resemble round table discussions about specific topics. Most of the guys here are up for Squadron Command or SIO slots, so like I said, mature, reasoned folks, many with combat experience. Me, I am more moderator than instructor. But, I do have my moments.....

As for the USO. I really didn't get a chance. We were busy a lot. EPWs would come in at ALL hours and when you had time sensitive intell to collect, it was get it or somebody dies. I did see a USO show after the war in Reno, nice little number with Cyndi Lauper of all things? She's really parleyed a career post war. I think a brother of hers was killed in Seacouver during the fighting so she's always done USO tours gratis.

As for me getting any mementos...well, we do have a HMMWV from our motor pool as one of our two cars. Hey, it ran and the government was getting rid of a few at the time. So, I paid I think $50 at the time and it's ran damn well for the last 20 years...though it's gotten a bit finicky about the quality of the motor oil. Now that I work at Maxwell, it's easy to get maintenance done.
Last edited: Aug 18, 2009

Matt Wiser

At least you didn't have to deal with some twerp who didn't like the fact that you've been allowed to have a memento and made no bones about it. That FAA inspector from Salt Lake is too young to have been in the military, so he's a proper bureaucrat. Ugh. I should've flown down to Vegas and had their people take over. Hopefully, some Marine getting his or her old A-4 or F-4 will teach this little weasel a lesson.

The maintenance guys at Maxwell are pretty good. Even though I was a student, one sergeant noticed the bullet holes in my Jeep Grand Cherokee, and asked how I got 'em. After telling him about the naked CSP gal, he laughed and said "drive over to the motor pool, and tell them Sgt. Clark sent you. They'll patch her up." Sure enough, they did. We've had that Jeep for 20+ years, and she's still truckin'. Lisa and I do go off-roading every once in a while, too. We did have a tryst interrupted by one of the Singapore AF F-15Es roaring down the river canyon where we were parked, though....Sound of freedom, as the bumper sticker says.

Panzerfaust, how'd you guys handle the drive from Midland-Odessa all the way back to Houston, with the I-45 corridor still hostile territory? That drive via D/FW, Shreveport, and Lake Charles must've been long and boring. (600+ miles, I believe). I take it there were signs on the road "watch for unexploded bombs" and "Danger: this road patrolled by MiGs"?

TheMann

Panzerfaust 150 said: As for me getting any momentous...well, we do have a HMMWV from our motor pool as one of our two cars. Hey, it ran and the government was getting rid of a few at the time. So, I paid I think $50 at the time and it's ran damn well for the last 20 years...though it's gotten a bit finicky about the quality of the motor oil. Now that I work at Maxwell, it's easy to get maintenance done.

My brother did that, too, but he then spent 20 grand making into something worth driving on the street - new drivetrain, interior and paint, for starters. He loves it, though, so I'm not gonna begrudge him that. Me, I have a Nissan Skyline I brought home from when I was stationed in Japan post-war, plus a big Jeep Grand Cherokee and my trusty Buell motorcycle.

AMARC called me today wanting to know when I could get over to get the A-7 I ordered. The base commander told me to go when after my unit's inspection, which is next week. A civil airport near here has a hangar reserved for me, and that's where my Corsair II is gonna go. I'll have to fly it up to the Pacific NW one day, though, because I promised my buddy a ride in it. Apparently, the FAA guys in Miami are pretty reasonable, because there is a bunch of vets down here, and the local civil airports are full of old warbirds. An ex-Marine in Fort Launderdale has a Harrier, apparently. I'll believe that when I see it.

Matt Wiser

The guy in charge of the General Aviation side at SLC International says I can use a hangar there, for "nominal rent" (read: cheap). He's ex-USAF, and so as long as Lisa's stationed at Mountain Home, and I'm at Hill, my Rhino has a home. I was at the FAA office today, finalizing the paperwork, and there was a different inspector there: much more friendly and outgoing, and willing to listen to you whenever you raised an issue. I asked the supervisor what happened to the little weasel who was originally in charge of my case, and he said that said little man in question crossed someone the wrong way, and he's been reassigned. (hint: word got back that he was poorly treating someone with a lawfully authorized jet warbird, and TPTB in the FAA didn't like that) Once the movie projects are done, the AF paperwork gets taken care of, the plane gets demilitarized, and it's mine. And AMARC just sent a truckload of spare parts, including two engines. Awful nice of 'em.

I managed to get some more of Keegan done today, as we had some T-Storms, and thus no flying. He does mention the submarine war, with the Russians trying to interdict the various convoys to and from the East and West Coasts, and not doing a good job of it. Even though the French and Italians were officially neutral, their navies did pass sub sighting reports to the Sixth Fleet as it escorted convoys from the PG and Israel. How? Simple: they made their reports to their shore bases in the clear, and in English. Sixth Fleet's ASW forces could then attack the contact if it threatened a convoy. The Soviet Navy's efforts in the Pacific were laughable, he writes. Only one attempt at going after an Australia-San Francisco convoy, and that one failed miserably. Even the convoys from Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan mostly, but not always, had free rides.

Has anyone read the alternate histories that go into what if there'd been no war, and the Cold War had either continued, or had ended with the USSR collapsing from within? Not a With a Bang, But a Whimper, is an anthology of some stories set in such an AH. Some are decent, others, though...

Snowman23

TheMann said: I think the better story might be USS Chicago. A WWII heavy cruiser that became a WWIII guided missile cruiser. For a while, there were two USS Chicagos, kinda a problem when they operated with the same battle groups, as apparently they did once.

OCC: The Heavy cruiser Chicago from WWII was sunk in 1943, after that it was replaced by a Cleavland light cruiser which i don't think they would have refurbished.

I Love cruisers so much, I hope we build a whole bunch of em now that where rebuilding the navy. Have any of you heard the controversy about the new cruisers, the Samar's? Well apparently, the Navy design called for 2 modern 8 inchers as WWIII taught us its always good to have bug guns, but some people, not even sure who, are arguing against it for reasons about the ammo and it be "unnecessary". Ugh, damn bureaucrats....

TheMann

Snowman23 said: OCC: The Heavy cruiser Chicago from WWII was sunk in 1943, after that it was replaced by a Cleavland light cruiser which i don't think they would have refurbished.

I Love cruisers so much, I hope we build a whole bunch of em now that where rebuilding the navy. Have any of you heard the controversy about the new cruisers, the Samar's? Well apparently, the Navy design called for 2 modern 8 inchers as WWIII taught us its always good to have bug guns, but some people, not even sure who, are arguing against it for reasons about the ammo and it be "unnecessary". Ugh, damn bureaucrats....
OOC: I was referring to This USS Chicago. Baltimore-class heavy cruiser that became an Albany class guided missile cruiser. Commissioned January 1945, rebuilt 1959-1964, served as a missile cruiser until March 1980, staying in the mothball fleet until April 1990.

IC: The Samars are being held up partly because we still have the Iowa and South Dakota class battleships for fire support. I don't know if its occured to them yet that their "expeditionary warfare" ideas require the Marines to get fire support, and its better to have too much than too little in that regard. The bureaucrats always forget that the Marines are our primary response team the next time the boys and girls at Foggy Bottom fuck up.

Snowman23

TheMann said: OOC: I was referring to This USS Chicago. Baltimore-class heavy cruiser that became an Albany class guided missile cruiser. Commissioned January 1945, rebuilt 1959-1964, served as a missile cruiser until March 1980, staying in the mothball fleet until April 1990.

IC: The Samars are being held up partly because we still have the Iowa and South Dakota class battleships for fire support. I don't know if its occured to them yet that their "expeditionary warfare" ideas require the Marines to get fire support, and its better to have too much than too little in that regard. The bureaucrats always forget that the Marines are our primary response team the next time the boys and girls at Foggy Bottom fuck up.
OCC: Damn it! I was thinking the Houston! Sorry :eek:

IC: I know! The marines deserve all the Naval Fire Support they want, they are the ones who are our man reaction force. And it was always fun to slam 16 inch shells into commie positions and then getting a relived Marine voice over the radio going "Thanks, one more bunker down".

TheMann

Snowman23 said: OCC: Damn it! I was thinking the Houston! Sorry :eek:

No worries.

Snowman23 said: ↑IC: I know! The marines deserve all the Naval Fire Support they want, they are the ones who are our man reaction force. And it was always fun to slam 16 inch shells into commie positions and then getting a relived Marine voice over the radio going "Thanks, one more bunker down".

Well, as a fighter jock I didn't often hear that one, but a couple times it was relieving to have a Navy ship drop a couple fighters that were on my tail, and then I'd hear "Pilot, this is the fire control officer, USS Oregon City. You alright up there, son?" I got that fighting the air battle over Houston a couple of times, either a Ticonderoga, Virginia, Leahy or Albany class cruiser, most often the Albany class ships because of their heavy armor. (Making missile cruisers from WWII gun cruisers does have a few advantages.)

And yeah, if you ask me, they ought to have a USN fleet specifically for ships to back up the Marines. They deserve it. Some of the morons in the Navy think that 5-inch guns are sufficient for that. My thought is "Why use the smaller guns when you can use the big ones?" I know there are logistical concerns, but if we learned anything during the war it is that the guys on the front lines are at their best when they know whatever ordinance they expend, there is more of it waiting for them back at base. I doubt the Navy guys are any different, are you?

Snowman23

Well, as a fighter jock I didn't often hear that one, but a couple times it was relieving to have a Navy ship drop a couple fighters that were on my tail, and then I'd hear "Pilot, this is the fire control officer, USS Oregon City. You alright up there, son?" I got that fighting the air battle over Houston a couple of times, either a Ticonderoga, Virginia, Leahy or Albany class cruiser, most often the Albany class ships because of their heavy armor. (Making missile cruisers from WWII gun cruisers does have a few advantages.)

And yeah, if you ask me, they ought to have a USN fleet specifically for ships to back up the Marines. They deserve it. Some of the morons in the Navy think that 5-inch guns are sufficient for that. My thought is "Why use the smaller guns when you can use the big ones?" I know there are logistical concerns, but if we learned anything during the war it is that the guys on the front lines are at their best when they know whatever ordinance they expend, there is more of it waiting for them back at base. I doubt the Navy guys are any different, are you?

Yeah, always was nice knowing I had more 16 inchers waiting back at home port to throw at Ivan. Was like Christians all year round. We always knew we had enough shells so we spared no expense in sending the shells down range whether at bunkers, tanks, ships, or buildings. Our highest rate of fire i think was sending out 3 shells a minute per gun, pretty good for 2,000 pound shells

Matt Wiser

(OOC: I think The Mann's referring to the Guided Missile Cruiser U.S.S. Chicago (CG-11). She was a Baltimore-class heavy cruiser converted to a missile cruiser in the late 1950s, with her sister ships Albany (CG-10) and Columbus (CG-12). All three were in mothballs in 1985, and could've been reactivated. However, there was a new U.S.S. Chicago in the Fleet in 1986: SSN-721. ) The two other cruisers could be reactivated, with the Chicago being a parts source for the other two. They would've needed some modifications, as their Talos SAMs were no longer in service, and Mk-26 Standard launchers would need to be installed fore and aft, along with CIWS, Harpoons, etc.

IC: So the Navy got off its rear end and decided to bring that single 8-inch turret intended for destroyers? The Marines will say "About time." The more gun platforms for fire-support, the better. A couple of Marine students at the Air War College were glad the Navy had brought back not only the battleships, but the two heavy cruisers as well. I still get a kick out of what the Navy did to that Yemeni warlord, charging tolls for ships passing into and out of the Red Sea, until Salem's 8-inch guns and a carrier air strike from Nimitz convinced him otherwise. Then Marines landed and put him out of business for good. He was killed, but some of his lieutenants got caught. They were tried, convicted of piracy and extortion by a military tribunal, and shot. Haven't had many problems like that there, but in some other places, though....The Rump USSR complained to the UN, of course, but as is usual now, the UN did nothing, and just issued a statement "regretting that a peaceful solution was not followed." The Navy even had new shells produced for the cruisers: with rocket-assisted HE, along with submuntion rounds similar to CBUs, being produced.

Well, Showtime just had a change of plan: instead of filming the scenes for Major Ray's pic in Florida, they're going to Puerto Rico. Seems PR has a Film Board that tries to get movies and TV shows to film there, and the offer was a good one, apparently. So Kelly Ann goes off to San Juan for three weeks (that's how long those scenes will be shot), before going to California for the interior shooting.

Trekchu: what does the DMV have to say about you driving a tank around? Even if the 120-mm has the breechblock welded shut and the machine guns being replicas? If they're anything like that FAA twerp was....

Snowman23

The Navy just sent out a press release with the names of the 8 Samar's:

USS Samar (WWII, "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors")
USS Manila Bay (Spanish-American War, Dewey's Big Victory)
USS Cape Hatteras (WWIII, One destroyer and Two frigates on Patrol attacked and sank 4 full loaded Soviet transports)
USS Cape Esperance (WWII, First US night action victory against IJN)
USS Santa Barbra (WWIII, USN defeats Comm-Bloc task force meant to land in San Fransisco)
USS Bonhomme Richard (American Revolution, John Paul Jones's ship)
USS Sunda Strait (WWII, USS Houston and HMAS Perth's last stand against IJN Invasion convoy)
USS Pugent Sound (WWIII, USN annihilate Soviet Invasion Convoy trying to land in Seattle)

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: At least you didn't have to deal with some twerp who didn't like the fact that you've been allowed to have a memento and made no bones about it. That FAA inspector from Salt Lake is too young to have been in the military, so he's a proper bureaucrat. Ugh. I should've flown down to Vegas and had their people take over. Hopefully, some Marine getting his or her old A-4 or F-4 will teach this little weasel a lesson.

The maintenance guys at Maxwell are pretty good. Even though I was a student, one sergeant noticed the bullet holes in my Jeep Grand Cherokee, and asked how I got 'em. After telling him about the naked CSP gal, he laughed and said "drive over to the motor pool, and tell them Sgt. Clark sent you. They'll patch her up." Sure enough, they did. We've had that Jeep for 20+ years, and she's still truckin'. Lisa and I do go off-roading every once in a while, too. We did have a tryst interrupted by one of the Singapore AF F-15Es roaring down the river canyon where we were parked, though....Sound of freedom, as the bumper sticker says.

Panzerfaust, how'd you guys handle the drive from Midland-Odessa all the way back to Houston, with the I-45 corridor still hostile territory? That drive via D/FW, Shreveport, and Lake Charles must've been long and boring. (600+ miles, I believe). I take it there were signs on the road "watch for unexploded bombs" and "Danger: this road patrolled by MiGs"?

Understatement of the the year...MiGs, Snipers, Fire Strikes by long range artillery....I got very acquainted with my K-Pot and Vest. Not to mention my MOPP gear. Goddamned Ivan just loved to lob chem at us. But, the good days were fun...real road trip like...you'd almost forget there was a war on, and with the amount of purloined gear we had...nobody was walking. The joke around the division is that we were "Light Mechanized".

Matt Wiser

At least you guys and gals didn't have to worry about speed traps: some of those little burgs in Texas and Louisiana before the war were notorious for such misbehavior. When I went to see our ALO with 1st Cav in New Mexico, there was a sign on this New Mexico State Highway that said: "WARNING: The Reds Direct Traffic Past This Point." Another sign said "Speed Patrolled by MiG". This was before the big ComBloc bug-out from Santa Fe and Taos that PRAIRIE FIRE caused. And then our F-4s (AF and Marine), and Marine A-4s, directed traffic on the roads the ComBloc was using....And where'd you get your purloined vehicles? "Moonlight Requesitioning," say? Or did their previous owners no longer need them?

I see the Navy's picking up where those AEGIS cruisers left off; naming cruisers after battles.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: (OOC: I think The Mann's referring to the Guided Missile Cruiser U.S.S. Chicago (CG-11). She was a Baltimore-class heavy cruiser converted to a missile cruiser in the late 1950s, with her sister ships Albany (CG-10) and Columbus (CG-12). All three were in mothballs in 1985, and could've been reactivated. However, there was a new U.S.S. Chicago in the Fleet in 1986: SSN-721. ) The two other cruisers could be reactivated, with the Chicago being a parts source for the other two. They would've needed some modifications, as their Talos SAMs were no longer in service, and Mk-26 Standard launchers would need to be installed fore and aft, along with CIWS, Harpoons, etc.

You're right on the money, Matt. One correction: Columbus was scrapped in 1977, it was gone in OTL by 1985. Albany and Chicago were there, though. Being that this TL has a much stronger Russian fleet than OTL, I would imagine the USN perhaps has Reagan's 600-ship Navy fully in existence when the war kicks off. I mentioned Oregon City and Fall River because they were two other heavy cruisers selected for rebuilds that didn't come about, which in this TL is probably a certainty. Maybe a couple more too. Assuming here that Columbus is still around in 1985, all five would probably be yanked out of the mothballs and returned to service. If you have reactivated the Des Moines class cruisers, then mechanically you have no issues here, as the Baltimore, Oregon City and Des Moines class cruisers were almost identical mechanically - Babcock and Wilcox oil-fueled boilers and General Electric steam turbines. Assuming Columbus isn't modernized (as in OTL), then four would hit the water immediately, with Columbus in the yard for a major refit (Mk 26 missile launchers or even Mk 41 VLS, Harpoons, Phalanx CIWS, modern communications gear and fire control, et cetera), while the others get the Talos put back temporarily, trading it for the Mk 26 and SM-2 Standard missiles when they come in for overhaul.

Matt Wiser said: IC: So the Navy got off its rear end and decided to bring that single 8-inch turret intended for destroyers? The Marines will say "About time." The more gun platforms for fire-support, the better. A couple of Marine students at the Air War College were glad the Navy had brought back not only the battleships, but the two heavy cruisers as well.

Yeah, it seems that for much of the Navy, big guns are back in vogue. I'm not complaining, I got quite a lesson of their capabilities watching Massachusetts, Alabama and North Carolina at work in Caribbean. The 8-inch turret for destroyers is good, too, but hopefully the bureaucratic dimwits don't decide that's a good excuse to decommission the battleships and the heavy cruisers. What did Spruance say on that topic in WWII again? Oh yeah, "it takes both aircraft carriers and battleships."

Matt Wiser said: I still get a kick out of what the Navy did to that Yemeni warlord, charging tolls for ships passing into and out of the Red Sea, until Salem's 8-inch guns and a carrier air strike from Nimitz convinced him otherwise. Then Marines landed and put him out of business for good. He was killed, but some of his lieutenants got caught. They were tried, convicted of piracy and extortion by a military tribunal, and shot.

Yes, our world has still got many stupid problem areas to clean up, though at least we're making a good start on that. Having dealt with Cuba, that's one more PITA dealt with, though Castro got away. Oh well, we'll get his ass one day.

Matt Wiser said: The Navy even had new shells produced for the cruisers: with rocket-assisted HE, along with submuntion rounds similar to CBUs, being produced.

All the BBs got those new shells too. Apparently the Navy even brought the Katies for the Iowas, 15-kiloton nuclear shells. Never got used though, to the best of my knowledge. (Keegan didn't find any evidence of them either, IIRC.)

Matt Wiser said: Well, Showtime just had a change of plan: instead of filming the scenes for Major Ray's pic in Florida, they're going to Puerto Rico. Seems PR has a Film Board that tries to get movies and TV shows to film there, and the offer was a good one, apparently. So Kelly Ann goes off to San Juan for three weeks (that's how long those scenes will be shot), before going to California for the interior shooting.

Rats. I was hoping Showtime would ask me to fly my A-7 in the filming, and I want to meet this Major Ray. Sounds like my sorta woman.

Matt Wiser said: trekchu: what does the DMV have to say about you driving a tank around? Even if the 120-mm has the breechblock welded shut and the machine guns being replicas? If they're anything like that FAA twerp was....

They probably don't say anything about it. Think about. Even without guns, what exactly can win a fight with an Abrams? DMV guy is being a dick, all ya gotta do is tell him what a 67-ton tank does to the sorta crapboxes all of these bureaucrats drive.
TheMann

The Navy just sent out a press release with the names of the 8 Samar's:

USS Samar (WWII, "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors")
USS Manila Bay (Spanish-American War, Dewey's Big Victory)
USS Cape Hatteras (WWIII, One destroyer and Two frigates on Patrol attacked and sank 4 full loaded Soviet transports)
USS Cape Esperance (WWII, First US night action victory against IJN)
USS Santa Barbra (WWIII, USN defeats Comm-Bloc task force meant to land in San Fransisco)
USS Bonhomme Richard (American Revolution, John Paul Jones's ship)
USS Sunda Strait (WWII, USS Houston and HMAS Perth's last stand against IJN Invasion convoy)
USS Pugent Sound (WWIII, USN annihilate Soviet Invasion Convoy trying to land in Seattle)

Good choices for the Names. Has the Navy released what the Samars have for armament yet? I'm curious to see what they come up with.

From page 49

Sigma7

You guys sound like the my bosses over at the NSA, always talking about the "old days" and stuff that I only heard bits and pieces of growing up in Capitulated New England.

I was a kid back then, but my folks were with the underground. Sometimes I wonder who had it worst, the folks in the warzone or those of us living in the "Peace States", as quaint a newspeak phrase as any for out and out right co-operation with Ivan.

I don't know. I've seen the pictures and video from the old occupied territories as part of my work. I've seen the work camps, Pacco and Ivan's depredations, the mass graves. Read more dossiers of red scum collaborators and Soviet/Sandanista personel accused of war crimes/ crimes against humanity than you can shake an Mike 19A1 at.

Comes with the job, I suppose.

There's something that gnaws at your gut though, so removed from it as we were up here, yet in some ways, closer to the front than anyone in uniform.

You folks in the warzone got the reds with the guns.

We got the reds with the power and "presitge"...and the collaboraters.

My dad was a software tech by trade, but got his start as an electronics tech in the navy (CVA 14 USS Ticonderoga, '63-'66).

Fire Control tech, specifically, but that training, appaently, covers a whole lot of ground and branches easily.

Quite the radio enthusiast too. Came in handy after the capitulation in all but name here in Connecticut.

During the day, we went about our lives, such as they were; Red-ucation for us kids. Placement-labor for our folks.

Dad kept the family together and sane though. We used to work on "projects" at night; remote radio triggers, homing devices, stuff like that in the little workshop dad kept in the basement.

Lotta laughs, lotta solder but most importantly, resistance in the only way you can under the circumstances: keeping the bombers and trigger men equipped for the kick hits on collaboraters and "visiting dignitaries" whose vists never seemed to end.

It was maintaining a sense of family as the central institution, as our core. It was resistance to submission to the state that sought to replace that institution that kept us together, kept his babies from losing a sense of hope or the values of a free people.

I remember my first "kick".

Towards the end there, when the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th IDs were making "The Big Push" through New York City, what my dad called "Our Berlin Offensive".

There were already 1st SFR, Rangers and elements of the 82nd and 101st opperating as far north as Fairfield and New Haven counties by then.

It was rough in the burbs. Curfews. Round-ups. Heard it was worse in the cities, like Hartford, New Haven, Bridgeport. I know now how much worse.

Comes with the job.

By then, no adult without a uniform or badging could get anywhere near a Party man or woman. They were all busy trying to either get the hell out or destroy the evidence.

Adults couldn't get near them.

Us kids could though.

Tough thing to ask a 13 year old to do. Mom was against it. Dad wasn't even sure he could sign off on it.

The party jerk in question had to get it though. You sign that many warrants against your own countrymen, people guilty of nothing more than their God given right to their own opinion...you've got to face a reckoning for that.

Simple device, 5 lbs. C-4, wired with a radio switch and homing device.

Had to be done quick. Word was good she was going out on the next plane for some parts unknown sanctuary state.

I had an in; I may have been a lowly prole, but her daughter liked me.

A lot.

Thing about their security apparatus at that point; unless they were depoted, their personal vehicles were pretty much naked.

Got myself an invite to their house. After-school affair, so a kid with a backpack doesn't draw much attention from the goons at the door. Not that it mattered at that point. Birthday/Going Away party for her and her family.

Wasn't difficult to slip away. Most of the adults were wasted by the time we got there. Bunch of adolecents and pre-adolecents running amok around the grounds, looking for someplace "quiet".

Told the girl I had to use the bathroom.

Somewhere along the way, I ended up in the garage.

Wired the package directly off the battery and mounted it directly under center, just like dad taught me to. Fast, just like dad taught me to.

Made nice with the girl, like my parents told me to. "If you act strange, they'll think something's up."

In truth, nobody there seemed to give a crap. It was like the last days in the bunker for Hitler; bunch of drunk, stoned adults, too busy grabbing a quickie before leaving the country, or facing the inevitablitiy of the "honor" of dying for the revolution.

Don't know why I even stuck around after I wired the car. She and her Papa Oscar Sierra mother and boy fondling dad were going to be vapor soon enough. Maybe I felt bad for her, in some way.

That was back when I still felt things.

After that, it was a simple matter of waiting for them to leave, and, as expected, they left before their guests.

Guess they got lucky in the air-lift lotto.

I left through a side gate. Borrowed a car parked outside from one of the party goers and waited.

They must have been in a hurry, because they didn't even wait for their security detail. Then again, it's possible their detail were passed out, or pounding some flesh in the upstairs bathroom for all I know.

I let them get to the end of the street before I pulled off the curb.

Kept the rangefinder on the seat next to me. If they were out of range, the grid went red. So long as I kept the grid green, they were in range.

Followed them at a safe distance, onto the highway. Stayed on them as close as I could without being conspicous.

Dad told me to wait until the road was as empty as possible when I lit 'em up. No sense in killing some poor bastards commuting home from his impressed service at the factory or power plant.

I was waiting for a clear stretch of highway when they suddenly flashed their blinkers. They were taking an exit. Not part of the plan.

Call it instinct taking over, personal initiative, whatever. I took the exit ramp too, except, unlike them, I floored it. Down the ramp, around the side of their car and blew through the stoplight, right back up the on-ramp across the road.

I glanced at the grid. It was solid green. I floored it up the on-ramp almost to the highway, eyes half on the road, half on the grid. The green was fading. I double tapped the button on the remote.

The flash lit up the interior of the car about a split second before the roar of the blast made my ears ring.

I slammed on the breaks at the top of the ramp. It was empty, and so was the intersection behind me.

I backed the car down slowly to the base of the ramp. Confirmation was needed. I was going to do my duty and confirm.

The Connie was blown in half. It's rear end, near as I could tell, was now lying in front of the front end, flipped on it's side. Whole thing was an inferno.

Nothing was moving inside. Nobody had gotten out.

All the confirmation I needed, and now I could hear sirens.

I floored it up the ramp and peeled out down the highway to an abandoned rest stop.

Torched the car and the gear inside it, just like I was told. Then headed into the woods to look for a safehouse.

Turns out, I hiked it ten miles through the woods, not that I noticed. I was clutching the snub nose .38 the honcho had given me tightly the whole way and my mind was kinda hazey.

A couple of guys in a pick up, throwing back beers and doing some night angling were the first people I ran into.

That was forunate.

"Hey kid, how many lamps in the steeple?" the one with the flashlight called out.

"Two." was my reply.

Noticed that the guy behind him had produced a 1911 from out of nowhere and at that point he stepped forward.

"Who are you with?" he asked softly.

"Hannon's group." was all I said. Just like I'd been instructed, if asked by anyone, even friendlies.

They stashed me in the back of the truck, under tarps and loose planks, lumber and tackle and we drove for what seemed like forever.

I couldn't make out the two men's conversation, over the engine and the radios and scanner, but I could hear the scanner. Lots of squawk on the police bands. "Car bombing off Rt. 9. Party Officer and family killed. Police dispatched for a sweep. Party guests unhelpful. Usual suspects to be picked up." etc...

The truck pulled over to a stop on the gravel access road we'd been traveling on.

The tarp came up and the guy with the .45 whispered "Hey, how'd you get out here?"

I froze for a second. I eased the .38 out of the pouch on my sweatshirt, beneath the tarp and slowly cocked the hammer.

"Hannon sent a fucking kid out for this!?!" the other guy asked incredulously.

.45 guy spoke again: "Mike, calm down."

He turned back to me and continued:

"Listen, we know you're on the level. I assure you, Mike and I are on the level."

"Who are YOU with?" I spit through a tightening throat.

.45 Guy was quiet for a minute. He glanced over at "Mike".

"Kid's scared Cap. If you tell him..."

.45 guy cut him off. He thought about it for a minute that seemed like an eternity. The hammer on my .38 was cocked now and it was out of the pouch pocket and at my side, pointing straight up beneath the tarp, pretty much a point blank shot of .45 guy's face. With .38 Special SJPs, at that range, I could have taken his face off.

Instead of speaking, he reached down the front of his shirt. A mettalic rattle was followed by the appearence of a set of dog tags.

U.S. Army dog tags.

"Captain Jeff Graves, 1st Special Forces Regiment, United States Army. That over there is Master Sergeant Tom Sykes."

First time since I dumped my backpack for "the package backpack" that afternoon that I actually felt safe.

Sometime before dawn, Sykes and a WO named Parker dropped me off in front of my house.

Funny thing about all of that. You tell a recruiting officer a story like that, they don't just give you a service battery and an appointment with the docs.

They send you to off to some federal building, to talk to some guy who doesn't really have an office there and isn't always who they say they are.

The tests aren't a stadard battery either; it's part SAT, part IQ and part psyche evaluation.

If all that checks out, THEN you see the docs.

I have a job in the post war world.

Officially, I work for the Department of Investigations and Reconcilliations of Occupation Era Criminal Activities; War Crimes and Civillian Abuse Division.

Unofficially, we're the Reprisal and Punative Actions Detachment; aka "The Scalphunters".

There were people who thought they were just going to disappear after the whole Red Blitz collapsed. That they could find a quite little place to hide in the post war world where they could live out the rest of their lives with some smug satisfaction that they had lost the war, but would never face trial for the "moral victories" they achieved during the revolution.

We see to it that one way or another, justice is ultimately served to those people.

By any means neccessary.
ASoIaF: Were We Different Men (Completed, contains revisions)
ASoIaF: Of Wolves and Lions, Secrets and Lies, Shadows and Light (NEW!)

Matt Wiser

Given that there's no Statute of Limitations on Collaboration with the Enemy, or Treason....you guys should be busy.

Ivan never got into New England (unless you're counting Spetsnatz), and three times, the ComBloc demanded the U.S. and Canada surrender. Three times, the answer (delivered jointly by the President and the Canadian Prime Minister) was "NO!" Ivan wound up either retreating into Mexico in that Summer and Fall of '89, surrendering at Brownsville, TX, in late September of that year, and doing the same up in Alaska and Canada that November. The Cubans didn't agree to the Armistice until March '90. Then you could say it was over. For the time being, anyway. Now that Fidel's who knows where, Raoul is in the hands of the U.S. Marshals' Service down in Florida-and other unfinished business with Cuba has been taken care of (see previous postings in the thread), all that's left is the Rump USSR, North Korea, the pseudo-Marxist government in Mexico City (which only controls the areas within range of their own rifles, I might add), and Venezuela (with a Fidel-wannabe howling mad now that Fidel may be fish food, and Fidel's brother in a Miami jail cell).

One other SAM system that we had to worry about: the SA-8B Gecko. A Search and Radar, EO backup in case the radar was jammed, and the ability to have two missiles in the air against the same target (first Soviet tactical SAM with this capability). The Wild Weasels got the better of these slime-lickers, and a lot of times, the operators got thrown off when they used their EO system when the radar was jammed-you'd have a flight come in at all points of the compass and overwhelm the battery. And if you weren't a Wild Weasel, then AGM-65 often did the job well enough. I almost got nailed by SA-8 several times, and lost wingmen twice (one before Kara Sackhoff got the job, and one after she became an element leader): One crew KIA, one MIA. God bless, guys. And Kara once came back with one F-4 with an unexploded SA-8 in the right fuselage! This one's also at the Clovis museum. Where and how they found an intact launch vehicle, I don't know. We preferred them (and any other SAM vehicle) flaming wrecks.



jacobus

I was a kid back then, but my folks were with the underground. Sometimes I wonder who had it worst, the folks in the warzone or those of us living in the "Peace States", as quaint a newspeak phrase as any for out and out right co-operation with Ivan.

The "Peace States"? Ha ha, what a great name! Are you adept at Paint? How about a map of North America too, to show us the extent of these "Peace States" where collaboration was the rule, the parts of the country where resistance to the occupation was so widespread and fierce that the ComBlock had to practically depopulate the entire territory, the irradiated zones, and the places in between.

Matt Wiser

The "Peace States" comprised all of Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas, plus New Mexico East of the Rio Grande and then the Rockies, Colorado and Wyoming East of the rockies (up to Casper), Nebraska south of I-80 from the Wyoming line to Lincoln, along with most of Kansas except for the NE corner near Fort Leavenworth, much of the Missouri Ozarks all the way to the suburbs of St. Louis, and then down the Mississippi all the way to Baton Rouge, Louisiana and the Mississippi River Delta. At least that's what the "Radio Liberated America" said on its radio shows (when we weren't either jamming them or outright blasting their transmitters-335th TFS hit more of their transmitters than anyone else in the Southwest-thanks to us having Pave Spike and a few Pave Tack pods to guide Laser-Guided Bombs. Believe me, you needed those LGBs if you wanted to take out a radio or TV transmitter-they're more of a precision target than you'd think otherwise. Guerillas then targeted their repair crews...Anyway, any Soviet or Cuban presence outside those states were usually Spetsnatz or Cuban SOF on recon/sabotage missions (like the Raven Rock op). There were some SOF in just about every state not occupied....Just be glad they never did cut the country in half. They came close in that Spring-Summer '86 Offensive.

Well, halfway through Keegan's naval chapter. The Battle of Kamchatka is pretty well described as the swan song of the Soviet Pacific Fleet. The raid on Petropavalosk brought out the carriers Minsk and Novosoryssk, along with the Kirov-class battle cruiser Freunze, to face the Carl Vinson and Enterprise battle groups. In a way, the amphibious force was a decoy, to draw the SOVPACFLT out to do battle. The sub force did its job, sinking the Freunze and getting the main anti-air warfare and anti-surface threat out of the way in the process. The Soviet commander wanted to turn back, was was turned down by his Fleet Command in Vladivostok, and it turned out to be a death-and-glory ride. In a nutshell, both carriers were sunk, along with an additional cruiser (Ochakov), three destroyers (one Kashin and two Sovremenny class ships), and one of their precious fleet replenishment ships. U.S. losses: one cruiser (Richmond K. Turner) sunk, two destroyers (Coontz and Hayler) also sunk, and the frigate Downes so badly damaged she had to be scuttled. Air losses: four A-7s, seven A-6s, three F/A-18s, and one S-3. Not a bad day's work, fellas. As a result, the Soviet Pacific Fleet never did venture out in force beyond the range of land-based air, and the supply line to Alaska was now even more tenuous. Sloreck-this was your op-the Raid on Petropavalosk. Keegan thinks well of you guys.

What were you guys' favorite wartime songs? We've mentioned Don't You (Forget About Me), and Wagner's Die Valkure, but what else did you guys listen to on AFN or on a local station? AFN's favorites included We Gotta Get Outa This Place-Katrina and the Waves redid the Animals' classic from the Vietnam days, Elton John's Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting, Nancy Sinatra did a more modern version of These Boots Are Made For Walkin'; Tears for Fears had a song a year before the war that summed up everything: Everybody Wants to Rule the World, and then there was The Boss, Bruce Springsteen, with Born in the U.S.A. What else was a favorite of those in the war zone?

trekchu

Queen. They were over here when the Brits got stabbed in the back and elected to stay here 'for the duration' as the brits like to say.

Matt Wiser

Anyone here up in Alaska, during the invasion there and occupation? We've had some experiences from Canada, but no one from Alaska itself. Ivan planned on making Alaska a new SSR, but never started on that, since there was so much resistance activity. Anyone here from the USAF at Elmendorf or Eielson AFBs, the BMEWS station, or the Army at Forts Richardson and Wainwright? You guys really never had a chance, but did the best you could, and the lucky ones were able to get out and live to fight another day, or if able, get into the wilderness of Alaska and start fighting as guerillas. Alaska and Canada were the only areas where there wasn't much of a counteroffensive: by the time the Mexicans quit and signed a separate peace (much to the disgust of the Soviets and Cubans, who wanted to fight on), and forces on the Mexican border could finally be redeployed, the Soviet Northern America TVD was seriously considering a surrender, and since the supply lines to Alaska were being cut by the Pacific Fleet, can anyone blame the Theater Commander?

Finally finished Keegan's naval war chapter (no flying today). His assessment is that the Soviet Navy failed in two major tasks: first, to support the Army by transporting supplies from Russia to both Cuban and Mexican ports in the south, and in the Northern Theater, to Alaska. While supplies did get through, it wasn't enough to fully supply the ComBloc forces in both theaters. The Russian Republic sources he has cite this as a primary reason the Soviet Summer Offensive in British Columbia (1986), whch led to the Battle of Vancouver, failed. Lack of supply more than anything else, though heavy resistance by U.S. Canadian, and other Allied forces (New Zealanders and Filipinos mainly) stalled the offensive, and the Navy's failure was compounded by the amphib attack on Seattle, which ended in a crushing Soviet defeat. In the southern theater, the failed Amphibious attack on New Orleans was another failure: both were blamed by Soviet Navy officers on the vanity of Admrial Gorshkov, the CINC-Soviet Navy. The Soviet Navy also failed to cut off the U.S. from foreign sources of supply: weapons, ammunition, strategic minerals, oil, and food. That alone, the Russian Republic's sources who were Soviet Army, meant that the war would drag on, and that the U.S. and its allies could win a war of attrition over that distance. The Soviets and their lackeys could not. The "administrative redeployment" of BAOR from internment in Germany and the Low Countries back to the UK, which resulted in the Quisling Occupation government's overthrow (and in many cases, their execution), is also cited as a Soviet Naval failure: the Soviet Baltic Fleet was informed of the impending move, but never deployed any of its sub or fast-attack forces to halt the deployment. COMSOVBALTFLT was later shot by the KGB for "dereliction of duty, gross incompetence, and of deliberately engineering with the enemy." A lot of that went around the Soviet military in 1987-88...

TheMann

Keegan pretty much got it right in terms of the naval war. The lone wolf strike off Cape Hatteras - a frigate, a diesel sub and patrol boats against a Soviet supply convoy - and the battles off Florida where the old BBs and land and carrier-based aircraft tended to make big messes of convoys headed for Cuba proved that they didn't have the naval strength to shut us down. Bet that came to be a rude awakening.

Anyways, I took my buddy out in my TA-7E for the first time yesterday. It was great, the thing flies really well, and my buddy was in heaven, even in the backseat. The thing accelerates fast for an attack aircraft, though not as fast as my Hornet and certainly not as fast as my Raptor.

I got a call on the radio about a parade in Little Havana in Miami, and they wanted to know whether I could do a flyby - its the anniversary since the last Cubans left America, and the Cubans in Miami were commemorating it. I did the flyby, at about four hundred knots about a hundred and fifty feet above the houses, to a big cheer from the crowd in the street. Miami air traffic control gave me a grilling for it, though. Party-poopers.

Matt, you guys get any beer or something for the anniversary? It was twenty years ago yesterday since the last of those red fuckers packed their shit and got the fuck out of our country.

Snowman23

Matt Wiser said: Well, halfway through Keegan's naval chapter. The Battle of Kamchatka is pretty well described as the swan song of the Soviet Pacific Fleet. The raid on Petropavalosk brought out the carriers Minsk and Novosoryssk, along with the Kirov-class battle cruiser Freunze, to face the Carl Vinson and Enterprise battle groups. In a way, the amphibious force was a decoy, to draw the SOVPACFLT out to do battle. The sub force did its job, sinking the Freunze and getting the main anti-air warfare and anti-surface threat out of the way in the process. The Soviet commander wanted to turn back, was was turned down by his Fleet Command in Vladivostok, and it turned out to be a death-and-glory ride. In a nutshell, both carriers were sunk, along with an additional cruiser (Ochakov), three destroyers (one Kashin and two Sovremenny class ships), and one of their precious fleet replenishment ships. U.S. losses: one cruiser (Richmond K. Turner) sunk, two destroyers (Coontz and Hayler) also sunk, and the frigate Downes so badly damaged she had to be scuttled. Air losses: four A-7s, seven A-6s, three F/A-18s, and one S-3. Not a bad day's work, fellas. As a result, the Soviet Pacific Fleet never did venture out in force beyond the range of land-based air, and the supply line to Alaska was now even more tenuous. Sloreck-this was your op-the Raid on Petropavalosk. Keegan thinks well of you guys.

What were you guys' favorite wartime songs? We've mentioned Don't You (Forget About Me), and Wagner's Die Valkure, but what else did you guys listen to on AFN or on a local station? AFN's favorites included We Gotta Get Outa This Place-Katrina and the Waves redid the Animals' classic from the Vietnam days, Elton John's Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting, Nancy Sinatra did a more modern version of These Boots Are Made For Walkin'; Tears for Fears had a song a year before the war that summed up everything: Everybody Wants to Rule the World, and then there was The Boss, Bruce Springsteen, with Born in the U.S.A. What else was a favorite of those in the war zone?
I was at the Petropavalosk raid too, commanded the gunnery of the USS Ticonderoga. That was a fun little vacation.

I loved when they would play the old Vietnam-era songs like Hendrix, Joplin, and Jefferson Airplane on AFN or the remakes some bands did. I still remember having Watchtower on while shelling Ivan positions in California.

Matt Wiser

Was that when you guys were blasting a Spetznatz team that was found near Vandenberg AFB? There wasn't much action in California, that Mexican brigade moving up from Mexicali and getting smashed by 1st Marine Division notwithstanding. I'm from California, and my family told me that not much was going on, though some "peace" group (yeah, right...) got caught trying to sneak into the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant and cause some mayhem. They were all convicted of wartime sabotage and given lengthy prison terms. And they're still there. The Vandenberg AFB Combat Security Police had a reputation for calling in whatever supporting assets were available: though using battleship or cruiser gunfire to dig out a 12-man Spetsnatz team is a bit too much.

The Mann: Yeah, we got a case of Sam Adams, via the movie company. Twenty years since the Brownsville surrender? Man, how time flies. A few days after that is when we got orders to go up to Fairchild AFB. And yes, the Marines we had flown with since the first week went with us. The Russians in Alaska and Canada didn't surrrender until October, remember? We had to wait until our ground convoy got to Fairchild before flying up there, and man, that base was packed! B-52s and KC-135s from SAC's 92nd Bomb Wing, Washington ANG's KC-135s and the Idaho Guard's RF-4Cs, plus the Marines and us AF "orphans" in the 335th. Everyone got some theater orientation rides up into B.C. and Alberta, and a few low-threat combat hops, but nothing serious until the Soviet surrender on 5 October. Flew cover up into Calgary and Edmonton for our guys and the Canadians, until they sent us back to Texas (Kelly AFB) in November. Did you ever have any trouble with SA-11? Those things were downright dangerous, period.

Major Kelly Ann Ray and the Showtime people are busy now: they start filming tomorrow. After filming here at Mountain Home and at Hill, it's off to Puerto Rico for three weeks, and then they go back to California for the prison scenes at one of the studios. We'll have some flying, some scenes shot on the ramp, and an "after the war" scene at Hill.
Last edited: Aug 25, 2009

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: ↑Was that when you guys were blasting a Spetznatz team that was found near Vandenberg AFB? There wasn't much action in California, that Mexican brigade moving up from Mexicali and getting smashed by 1st Marine Division notwithstanding. I'm from California, and my family told me that not much was going on, though some "peace" group (yeah, right...) got caught trying to sneak into the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant and cause some mayhem. They were all convicted of wartime sabotage and given lengthy prison terms. And they're still there. The Vandenberg AFB Combat Security Police had a reputation for calling in whatever supporting assets were available: though using battleship or cruiser gunfire to dig out a 12-man Spetsnatz team is a bit too much.

The Vandenberg guys weren't the only ones who called in big stuff on Spetznaz squads. I think the idea was to expend shells and bombs rather than expend people. Can't say I disagree, honestly. Though I think somebody might ask a few questions if you are using a battleship to blow up a Spetsnaz squad......

A buddy of mine told me about the dimwits who tried to get into Diablo Canyon, because he was working at Rancho Seco at the time and the word of it spread fast. Several of them were packing heat, so I kinda doubt they were much of a peace group. That said, they ran headon into the Plant's security guys, and because of the plant's location, it rated Marines for security. Those who didn't give up got shot up, of course.

Matt Wiser said: The Mann: Yeah, we got a case of Sam Adams, via the movie company.

Ohhhh. Sam Adams? All I got was some Rickards Honey Lager, damn it.

Matt Wiser said: Twenty years since the Brownsville surrender? Man, how time flies.

I know, it didn't seem that long ago, does it? Mind you I had just met my future wife at the time, and I now have a 16 year old son, so I suppose it has been that long, hasn't it?

Matt Wiser said: A few days after that is when we got orders to go up to Fairchild AFB.

I got assigned originally to NAS Bremerton after the surrender in Brownsville, and then my unit was one of the first to get moved to CFB Cold Lake once the Canucks got it back. We got it back only a week or so before Ivan finally gave in, so I didn't get many opportunities for action there. Mind you, I got my last kill of the war (Soviet MiG-29) a couple days before the surrender.

Matt Wiser said: We had to wait until our ground convoy got to Fairchild before flying up there, and man, that base was packed! B-52s and KC-135s from SAC's 92nd Bomb Wing, Washington ANG's KC-135s and the Idaho Guard's RF-4Cs, plus the Marines and us AF "orphans" in the 335th.

Whoa, that would be one crowded Air Base. Bremerton was very full, too, two wings of F-111Fs and the SAC's 84th Bomb Wing with its KC-10 Extenders and B-52Gs, plus two F/A-18 squads and a bunch of Wild Weasel F-4s.

Matt Wiser said: Did you ever have any trouble with SA-11? Those things were downright dangerous, period.
I lost a Hornet and a wingman to one of those fucking things over Houston. :mad: Those were the bane of everybody's existence during the siege in Houston, we even lost a B-1 to one of those goddamned systems. The best SAMs the Reds had.

Matt Wiser said: Major Kelly Ann Ray and the Showtime people are busy now: they start filming tomorrow. After filming here at Mountain Home and at Hill, it's off to Puerto Rico for three weeks, and then they go back to California for the prison scenes at one of the studios. We'll have some flying, some scenes shot on the ramp, and an "after the war" scene at Hill.

It sounds like it'll be a helluva movie. I can't wait to see it. If Major Ray is ever in Florida, let me know. I'd like to buy that woman a drink. Any mysogynist hasn't met a woman like that, or like my wife.

Panzerfaust 150

Well,
5 October found me processing EPWs up to my eyeballs, and sorting them for either a trip home, or a trip to a holding or transit camp. This was just before the Indians, Irish and Sweedes showed up to help us get these folks home as well as observe the cease fire. Brownsville had surrendered the week before. It was a mess. Booby traps, abandoned live ammo, burning POL dumps...Brownsville looked like the damn dark side of the moon. But that first night, it was the first night we didn't bother with light discipline since the war began. I remember thinking how we were all going to get killed with all this light around. It was also the day the BC told me I had orders for Reno and to be there by 1 November. So, I asked to stay on for a week or two to train up one of the casuals as my relief. BC cleared it, and by 10 October, I was in the back of a shithook wedged between two crates on a flight to Houston trying to beat Hurricane Fred in. We did...just, but I had to sleep in what was left of the terminal waiting for the storm to blow over. Didn't manage to get out of Houston for three days, then caught a C-130 to Reno.

As for now, we hold a unit picnic...it rotates homes and the host does the grilling..everybody brings food and beer. So, being a bunch of intell geeks, we have a real selection. The wife and I took the weekend and flew back for it this year. Next year, it's going to be at Maxwell at my house..it was tough this year. Wartime buddy of mine told me he's got cancer...Jesus. When the hell did we get old?

As for what I listened to? Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Van Halen (sensing a theme?) and Billy Joel. I feel for him. His Girlfriend (OOC: they didn't marry till 1985) Christie Brinkley, was in NYC when the bastards glassed it. He really has struggled with it. But, he's come out the other side. The song he did, Goodnight, Houston is very haunting. Triumphant, but haunting. I also liked Eric Clapton, it's a real shame he didn't survive the war, but I never found out what happened to him.

Snowman23

Panzerfaust 150 said: As for what I listened to? Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Van Halen (sensing a theme?) and Billy Joel. I feel for him. His Girlfriend (OOC: they didn't marry till 1985) Christie Brinkley, was in NYC when the bastards glassed it. He really has struggled with it. But, he's come out the other side. The song he did, Goodnight, Houston is very haunting. Triumphant, but haunting. I also liked Eric Clapton, it's a real shame he didn't survive the war, but I never found out what happened to him.

Think he got put against a wall in Communist Britain for "profiting off the worker's". No idea where they hell the pulled that out of....

Matt Wiser

Yeah, California had its share of "Peace" groups, and a lot of them crossed the FBI and the various Military CID branches the wrong way. In the prewar period, anyone who sat down in front of a train hauling Air Force or Navy munitions got a night in the slammer and a fine. They found out that once the balloon went up, TPTB were no longer so tolerant. And the fact that UC Berkeley had more...liberal to leftie faculty and students than any other college, made for some...interesting bits on the news, as I found out when I was home on leave after my E&E. I wonder how those who got tossed in the slammer liked it when the real cons found out that they'd been essentially giving aid and comfort to the enemy at the very least?

Expending ammo than people is generally a good thing, but still....using 16-inch or 8-inch shells (it's said one of the ships was Des Moines) to dig out a Spetsnatz team? The word "Overkill" does crop up. We did use CBUs to nail a sniper team making life exciting for the CSPs at Cannon after we retook the place during PRAIRIE FIRE, but that was when we had to abort the planned mission due to weather in the target area.

The Scott Brothers were most generous: besides the Sam Adams, they had a big spread catered in from Salt Lake for everyone on the base who was involved in the filming. From pilots and WSOs, to the maintenance folks, to the base security guys, we all got a big smorgasbord. It was their way of saying "Thanks" for not just what we did in the filming, but what we did in the war.

Where does time go? Lisa and I have a son and two daughters: and all three of 'em are either in the Air Force (our oldest is a Doolie-Freshman-at the AF Academy, our son is going to the AF Academy next year, and our youngest wants UCLA), or planning to be. Only our son is biological: remember the PR campaign about adopting kids orphaned by the war? We adopted a girl from Colorado and another from Oklahoma. Both lost their parents due to the occupation....

5 October '89. Fairchild AFB..One hell of a party on base and in Spokane. Waking up the next morning, even though you still have to fly, but realizing that nobody is going to get killed today. A week earlier, after Brownsville surrrendered, that ground convoy left for Fairchild, and we got there two days before the end. Two orientation rides, going air-to-mud on the 4th, and actually being in the air on the 5th, coming back from a strike, and AWACS tells you "Ivan just plain gave up. It's over, boys and girls." You wonder if you've heard right on the radio. And then when you land, the whole base is celebrating. Strangest day of the war, and it was the last day. At least nobody was caring any more about fraternization....because OSI and NCIS (remember, we had Marine Air with us) would've had to investigate the whole base.

sloreck


One really big mistake the Sov Navy made was not transferring enough assets to the Pacific Fleet. Their Fleet deployments were based on stopping trans-Atlantic traffic (US forces going to NATO, resupply etc) as well as keeping the US subs from getting in to SSBN safe havens and carrier battle groups from getting in to waters far enough north to hit the USSR in that area. The correlation of forces in the Pacific was way against them as they tried to get supplies to Alaska & also stop US resupply from the Pacific nations. Japanese, S. Korean & ROK navies did a good job of keeping the Sovs from interfering with convoys for a good distance offshore, before they handed them over to US forces (Aussies did the same, but few Sov subs when that far).

Trying to force convoys through to Cuba/Mexico in large numbers with Sov escorts was stupidity of the highest order. Our subs were way quieter, and putting their forces in range of land based air (forgetting any CV air) which happened towards the end of the trips no matter what route you sailed, when their own naval air assets (fighters off CV) were so limited was like the Brits with the Prince of Wales & Renown off Malaya in 1942 - with the same results.

Interfering with US/NATO control in the N.Atlantic & Med is not the same as cutting transpac routes and fighting on our side of the water. Gorshkov ended up sending a boy to do a mna's job, having said that they fought like crazy, and took a lot of our guys with them to Valhalla.

The Sandman

It's funny, really. Before the war, I'd never have thought I'd find reason to have any degree of sympathy for Petain and his crew back in the Second Big One. But it's amazing how two years of running Occupied San Antonio and then another year dragooned into running Occupied Texas can give you some perspective.

Of course, I never should have been Mayor of San Antonio in the first place. I was pretty much a low-level functionary when the invasion started, maybe with a bit more influence than usual because I was kind of a general-purpose staffer, but still nobody special. Then Ivan, Juan and Jose came north, and next thing I know pretty much everyone above me is either getting lined up at the Alamo and shot or disappearing into one of the camps in Chihuahua or Monterrey. The new Vice-Mayor was a decent guy, but in way over his head, and the Mayor the Russkies put in... he made the stereotypical collaborator look like Nathan goddamn Hale patriotism-wise.

So I did what I had to do. You guys remember the refugee convoy that the Vice-Mayor got out in? I was the one who set that up, with the help of what loyal staff wasn't dead or already in the bits of Texas we still held then. When we got wind of what the new management intended to do to the local Hispanic population, we knew we had to do something. So we got the Mayor to authorize a refugee convoy, one that was going to be loaded with as many fellow travelers as possible and then sent across the lines to provide a fifth column.

And then on the night it was supposed to go out, we just rearranged the passenger manifests a bit, and gave you folks back nearly 15,000 loyal Texans who were scheduled to be murdered because openly patriotic Hispanic-Americans didn't fit the Fraternal Socialist image, plus another 5,000 Mexicans and assorted Central Americans who were still on the death lists from when the Reds took their countries. Plus, we managed to set everything up to make it look like that fucking quisling weasel had been the real brains behind the scheme, along with as many of the other known True Believers in the Soviet bullshit in the city government as possible. So he and his buddies got to see what the Alamo charnel house looked like from the other side, and my group got put in charge.

We got the Vice out before this because, as I said, he was a decent man. And we knew that if we wanted to try to find some way to keep Ivan from smashing us all, decency was going to be a luxury that we could rarely afford.

Am I proud of the things I did back then? No, not really. I did what I had to do to ensure that when we finally retook Texas, there'd still be a San Antonio left to liberate. And then, when the Governor finally fucked up one too many times, that there'd still be a Texas. That last year, when Ivan just stopped pretending and put in direct military rule, that was the worst by far; I had to personally execute my chief of staff to keep Ivan from simply purging all of us and putting in somebody like that Fred Phelps shitfucker they had running Arkansas for them to be the official "Civilian Affairs Liaison for the Texas Military District".

...do you know what it's like to have to put a gun against your co-conspirator's head and pull the trigger? And to do it while she's thanking you for giving her a quick and clean death, instead of what Ivan would have done to her in the "officer's club" before they finally got bored with her and threw what was left into a labor camp? And then to have to play along with the bastards that told you to do it when they start cracking jokes about her afterwards?

But anyway, as I said, doing what I had to do doesn't excuse it. And I know that. I didn't leave with the Reds because I was afraid of what would happen if I stayed, I left because I thought that if I could find some way of changing post-war Russia for the better then I could at least start to make amends for some of the things I did when I was Governor. And I feel like I'm making some real progress there at last, after two decades of trying to rebuild from the war while simultaneously leading the Russians to the society, economy and government they should have had if 70 years of Revolution hadn't sent them spiraling into the abyss.

But now that Cuba's gone, I have to come back. Because I know that you caught at least two of my people in Havana, maybe more, and they don't deserve what you plan for them because of what I told them to do. And because I'm old, and sick, and tired, and this is the last service I can give them and all the others.

And because after a quarter-century of having to live as an exile in body and spirit, I at least want to die at home.

Matt Wiser

That was what the Navy lecturer at the Air War College basically said. The Soviets had the navy they wanted to fight a NATO-Warsaw Pact war, but not a war mostly on this side of the world. And it wasn't easy to transfer ships from Northern, Baltic, or Black Sea to the Pacific: you have to go through Suez (and the Naval Attache at the embassy in Cairo just sat down in a deck chair alongside the canal, counted ships, and made a phone call to Raven Rock. It wasn't that hard to arrange a reception committee in the Indian Ocean (subs mainly, but if a carrier was escorting a tanker convoy....). Getting subs to the Pacific was easier from Northern Fleet, especially if they were nuclear boats: just go under the icepack into the Bering Strait. Ivan tried fighting a blue-water war on our terms, and paid the price. And so did we. Getting convoys to Cuba and Mexico seems the height of stupidity, and it was, but they got enough ships and stuff across to satisfy the Army. And sending part of Northern Fleet on decoy ops to draw Strike Fleet Atlantic away from the convoys (as they did on several occasions) did help.

The Aussie convoy route was the safest, they say. Only one convoy was ever attacked, but they still had to escort convoys from the West Coast via Hawaii and Samoa before the Aussies took over. If they hit one convoy, they can try for more.

Remember that the Navy did a good job in getting the supply ships headed to and from Alaska: 50% was the average attrition for a convoy. And it's a big reason the Soviets never tried moving south to the U.S.-Canada Border and into the lower 48 in that Spring-Summer '86 offensive. If they had....But that road led to Vancouver instead, and we all know what happened there.

jacobus

OOC:mad: The Sandman: What a post. I think this thread just keeps getting better. Keep it up.

trekchu

Well, The Sandman, you can die at home if you want, but two things: Never, EVER cross my path and tell me who you are, and secondly, better get a new identity while you are at it.

OOC: I second the above statement. It's time we got that perspective in here.

The Sandman

trekchu said: Well, The Sandman, you can die at home if you want, but two things: Never, EVER cross my path and tell me who you are, and secondly, better get a new identity while you are at it.

OOC: I second the above statement. It's time we got that perspective in here.

OOC: Thanks. Although I'm definitely going for more of a Mannerheim-vibe here, I think, although Vichy is also okay; that there would have been some collaborators who chose to do so because they felt that the alternative for their people would be even worse, and that in the worst-case scenario they could try to change things from the inside.

IC: Oh, no need for a new identity. As I said, I'm coming home to die. It's the price for getting my people who ended up in Cuba free. And it's also the only way I can hand over the list of people who I know tried to minimize the Communist atrocities, both in the US and in many other regimes around the world, without it simply looking like some sort of plea for my own absolution.

Besides, the ones who it was most critical to hide the identities of are all dead now. Most were executed by their own people, a few were taken down by your retribution squads, a few more were quietly "retired" by the Reds, and one or two actually managed to die of natural causes. Well, I think they did, at least.

So far as I know, now that Cuba has fallen, Russia is about to inaugurate its first truly democratically and fairly elected President, and China is disintegrating into civil war, I'm the last one left of my Black Orchestra whose position might be affected by the revelation.

Sigma7

jacobus said: I was a kid back then, but my folks were with the underground. Sometimes I wonder who had it worst, the folks in the warzone or those of us living in the "Peace States", as quaint a newspeak phrase as any for out and out right co-operation with Ivan.

The "Peace States"? Ha ha, what a great name! Are you adept at Paint? How about a map of North America too, to show us the extent of these "Peace States" where collaboration was the rule, the parts of the country where resistance to the occupation was so widespread and fierce that the ComBlock had to practically depopulate the entire territory, the irradiated zones, and the places in between.

"Peace States"...in the northeast, Pennsylvania west of the Alleghenys, west New York, once you get out of the city and the suburbs, New Hampshire and the Maine backwoods being the exception, were states that, if I remember the old cannard correctly:

"Sought peace and reconcilliation and a swift cessation of hostilities between the U.S. and the Soviet Union."

Of course, it was all a bunch of bullshit, but with DC gone, in those dark early days after Ivan dumped his bombs and put a lot of panic into an awful lot of people, opprotunists and Soviet appologists, "in the name of peace", of course, elected to try and "negotiate" with Ivan.

Some of those people had been elected, at least at the time they decided they were in charge, a lot of them, no one really recalled ever having voted for, but there were some rough times then; food shortages, medical shortages, riots and such, and someone needed to restore some sense of order.

At first, it seemed like the individual state governments were doing the job, but the political set, the local talkers and gadflys, accademics, campus politicos somehow seemed to take over the process at some point. They said they wanted peace and "dialogue" with Ivan.

That's when the "envoys" started showing up, for "talks". Thing most people noticed was that these "envoys" were so often accompanied by soldiers, small units, but soldiers none the less. "For security purposes" they said. Set up their own little "embassies" in the cities.

Embassies...damn things looked like the old U.S. Embassy in Saigon, except on steroids, with machine gun emplacements and barbed wire atop those high, thick concrete walls. Housed company sized units of Ivan soldiers, amongst other personel...

They were here "to talk" and "negotiate for peace", so we were told.

Seemed like they did a lot more than talk though. They had their black cars, shifty looking characters. Over time, we found out who those soldiers weren't just some random Ukranian farm boys, they were GRU and Spetsnaz, a means to an end.

The end? Keeping their "New American Commrades" in power, or place, depending on your point of view.

When the state National Guard and police forces; both municipal and state, became increasingly "uncooperative", the new political set, that kept invoking "emergency powers" to put off elections, began to rely heavily on the "Gruels" and "Spetters", as they were called, to "maintain order".

Seemed like they spent a lot of time training local thugs for the Bureau of Public Saftey as they called it.

They could call it whatever they wanted, still didn't change what they were.

At that point, you had only a few choices: "cooperate" (submit), resist openly, in which case you either disappeared of your own volition, into the backwoods and foot hills, with The Guard and the cops who refused to become apparatchik or sometime in the middle of the night, in the company of the BPS, or the Ivan alphabet soup; GRU, KGB, etc... or option number three, about the only thing guys like my father, guys with families who feared reprisal on their wives and kids if they don't show up for their work details for long periods of time.

The underground.

Underground life was rough; you lived amongst the stink of the collaboraters and Ivan's "emissaries of peace", did whatever job they needed done that your given skills were applicable to and kept your head down, trying to avoid contact with Beeps and Ivans.

That was your public life.

In basements, abandoned warehouses, safe houses and make-shift forward opperating bases, you had one goal: bring the fuckers down from within and live to do as much damage as possible.

It was like a strange mixture of the old Viet Cong cave systems and Belfast; a network of basements, sub-basements and root cellars, where workshops and communications centers, makeshift field hospitals and stash houses were set up, arms and infiltrators were stashed, bombs and triggers were stashed, stolen medical supplies were cached and the last remaining portal to our old lives, the radios, HAMs, short-waves, CBs, would be turned on for short periods of time, sending coded intel to the outside, at times with no certainty it would ever reach anyone and recieving information from the outside; Radio Free America, Radio Ressistance ("...with your voice of freedom, The Duke") and sometimes some words of encouragement from our men and women in the field.

If you were a kid, generally, you went to "school" or "Red-ucation" as we called it, where you were "taught" that the dictatorship of the proletariat was at hand and that the global revolution for a classless society and total equality would ultimately triumph over the decadent failures of western society.

That was school. After school, you were expected to report to your local "Youth Volunteer League" assemblies, where some dicksmoker college kid would tell you how great the "New World" was going to be, it was going to be the end of racisim and sexism and homophobia and social class structures.

One of the things I always noticed about those assemblies, the only people who did the talking were white and fairly well to do. More often than not, they were men too.

When not on YVL "community service detail" (which seemed to me to be little more than making signs with Party slogans, or greetings for more "envoys", or singing "patriotic" songs for some fucked up Ivans in ICUs and recovery wards at the local hospitals) you did what you could to resist with your mind, if your folks were doing their duty.

Like I said, my sister and I helped my dad build electronic radio bomb triggers and homing devices and repair "prohibited" radios. Stuff like that.

Learned a little bit about computers too.

Dad had an "unauthorized unit" in the workshop.

While dad never built a trigger that failed or homing device that went dead, that computer was where he did his finest and perhaps his most valuable work.

He had a tricked out 286, with custom modules and a "hot-line" modem.

Hacks that shut down sections of the power grid as the prelude to an attack or killed transmission of State TV, Radio, and Telephone services and maybe a couple that might have provided itineraries of "visiting dignitaries" or the daily schedules of certain apperatchiks. Viruses that turned State (and often times "envoy") computers into useless hunks of fdisk scrap. He wasn't alone, and maybe he wasn't even the best.

But he was damn good at it.

As fortunes changed and Ivan and his stooges started to get backed into the corner, things got more dangerous. You stayed off the street, not to avoid the Beeps, but to avoid getting hit by friendly fire in ambushes on Beep patrols or hits on apps, "envoys" and "officials".

At the bitter end, when the collective Guard units that had managed to withdraw to the safe zones in upstate New York made their big push against the "State's Guard Corps" and the SOCOM guys started opperation in our neck of the woods, the underground had surfaced and reprisals against collaborators increased proportionately to the decrease of Beep and SGC protection they had to hide behind. A lot of them fled. The ones who didn't...

Makes no difference now whether they got it then or got out on the last flights and subs out.

So long as their names are still "on The Board", they'll never get a good night's sleep or a second to let their guard down. They and people like them, inevitably, will have their day of reckoning.

It's our job to see to it they do.

From page 51

Snowman23

Matt Wiser said: For Snowman: you obviously must've been in the Russian Republic in St. Petersburg. The Rump USSR still controls Moscow and much of the Russian heartland (and most of their ICBM force). China got nuked big time, and Taiwan is what most people think of as "China" today. Unless some warlord is super-nasty and his atrocities make the news networks on a slow news day. I won't shed much tears, though: collaboration is still collaboration. Given what we saw as our squadron moved back into New Mexico and Texas, anyone who collaborated with the Reds, unless it was under extreme duress, earns a trip to Federal Prison at the very least. Some of the ones who got to Havana, earned a death sentence (leaders of "auxiliary units" for example), and given how many mass graves we found on RF-4C or SR-71 imagery...those people involved fully deserve whatever comes to them. At least you're coming back to face the music. Get a good lawyer, son; you'll need all the help you can get.

don't ya mean Sandman?

Pepper13

What happened.

I remember quitting school and rushing over to the Midwest to help out on the American Front. I was recuruted into my Uncle's makeshift group, The Wanderers. We were sent out all over the Mid West, finding any others trapped in the abandoned towns and small Soviet patrols. I totaled over a hundred Russians in the Battle for Omaha and were the heroes of that battle when we hijacked a Soviet Tank and smashed though the perimeter of the Soviet Base and command center. One of our last battles in the upper Northwest was to take over Eppley Airfield. After the Soviets decided to launch thier escape flight out of the city, my Uncle shot it down with an RPG. The Wanderers are now deployed into any Soviet occupied area that is known as a Red Zone. Though the group has changed drasticly, Dax and I are the only remainin members of the original Wanderers.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: I don't think there's anyone who didn't lose someone in the war. Friends, close relatives, immediate family, you name it.

Yep. My brother's best friend died on USS America, and his first girlfriend was a doctor who died when some Russian sub commander asshole sank USNS Mercy. (Whoever did that, you better hope we don't find you, you worthless piece of shit.) One of my buddies bit it in the cockpit of a F-16 over Colorado, and my best friend is a paraplegic after getting shot down in an A-7 over Western Canada. Yeah, I doubt there is anybody who didn't lose somebody. But if anything, it just made all of us more determined to kill these Red bastards.

Matt Wiser said: Prewar, if we lost a plane and crew, you went to a pair of funerals a few days later. During, you had a memorial service with the Chaplain, and five minutes after that, you're back in the cockpit.

Yep, and I do remember a couple cases back when I was flying the F-4s. But then again, losses among fighter pilots does tend to happen. The thrills do come with risks, and when you are flying at six hundred miles an hour a hundred feet off the water, it doesn't take much to crash into something.

Matt Wiser said: I had relatives living outside of Dallas, and most of them made it through the occupation. One died of a heart attack that the local "people's medical corps" wouldn't treat, and another was a random selection for a reprisal. One Soviet soldier's UAZ jeep ran over a homemade mine, and they just picked 20 people on the street, lined them up, and hosed them with AK-74s. No "summary proceedings", as Ivan was fond of, just grabbed 20 people at random, and that was that. That cousin was only 16.

Being that my family is mostly in the Pacific NW I never had to deal with that, but I know many, many people who did have to deal with that sorta crap. Did the commie morons not think that random reprisals had absolutely no effect on people's morale, and if it did it was to piss them off and cause even more problems then they already had?

Matt Wiser said: The Mann: Major Ray will be stopping over in Miami. The movie gear's on a charter, but the actors and others are going commercial to San Juan. Look for a near-lookalike of Demi Moore in AF blues in the transit lounge and that'll be her. Just ignore the scars on the arms from numerous rope torture sessions. Talk to her for a few minutes and you'll see why she wants certain Cubans now in the slammer to die slowly. Like I said earlier, if she'd stayed on active duty postwar, she'd be a bird colonel by now, with her own wing. Given what happened to her in captivity, I don't blame her a bit for getting out for a while.

I don't blame her, either, for wanting to get out. I'll be there. Maybe if she's got a little time, I'll take her up in the A-7. :cool: I have a big scar up the right side of my head from when my first hornet got shot down by a flak cannon, so scars if anything are to me just proof of what sort of person I am dealing with. And if she really does look like Demi Moore, I doubt I'll even notice the scars on her arms. I hope she knows that this is the "Superbird" from Keegan's books and from the movie that she's talking to.

Matt Wiser said: Anyone who dealt with that bastard Khvostov, "The Butcher of Clear Lake City", has a lot of explaining to do. Don't know if Snowman saw the earlier threads about that SOB, but he took his ire out on a whole town just because the NASA people had evac'd Johnson Space Center lock, stock, and barrel, leaving empty buildings, empty homes, and a note pinned to the JSC Visitor's Center on NASA letterhead saying "Catch us if you can." By that time, they were well across the Mississippi. I met a few of the folks who flew the air evac side: the C-130, C-141, even C-5 and commandeered 747 freighters. Those people earned their pay, and got a lot of people and NASA's equipment to safety. What couldn't be flown, was trucked out, and who couldn't fly, was bused out. Everyone met up at Marshall Space Center in Alabama (Huntsville), and in a few weeks, they were ready to support the first wartime shuttle flight (a still classified payload...).

I know one of the guys who evaced the Johnson Space Center, and you are right - they sent anything that could carry anything that way. I know some of the NASA boys got ferried out to USS Oriskany on a Chinook from the Space Center, and a Greyhound took 'em from Oriskany to Pensacola. They even sent up C-119s and C-123s to Johnson, to make sure EVERYTHING was packed up and moved out. No point in leaving anything the Red pigs could use, right?

Matt Wiser

The Mann: sinking a hospital ship really puts you on the wanted list, but we'd be court-martialing a corpse, as the K-386 (a Victor-III) was the guilty sub, and she was sunk on the way to Cienfuegos in Cuba (Ivan had an advanced sub base there), by U.S.S. Indianapolis. So the guilty captain paid, and fed the fish on the bottom of the Caribbean. The Caribbean, btw, was a shooting gallery for everyone involved, and neutrals stayed away for very good reason.

I've told her about you, and she should enjoy the meet during the layover. I don't blame her a bit for getting out for a while, either. But given her experience....one thing she says is that when she was at the March AFB hosptial a few days after coming home, they ran an experiment. She went to bed, and after she fell asleep, an orderly walked the hallway and jangled some keys. She woke up at once in a sweat, the feeling "Not again...", then she remembered where she was.

The ComBloc must've been following what the Germans did in Russia from 1941-44. The more reprisals against civilians, the more the civilians turn against you.

JSC was stripped clean, and I mean clean. From what one of the C-130 guys said (he was at the Air War College with me), they got everything out. All that bastard Khvoshtov found were empty buildings at JSC, and the homes of NASA employees empty. One of the assault carriers had finished up an overhaul at the shipyard in Mississippi at Pascagoula, and they sent Belleau Wood over to help with the evac. She carried people not only in the troop compartments, but on the hangar deck. And she carried the disassembled Saturn V that had been on display outside JSC, along with some of the other Rocket Park exhibits.

TheMann

I knew of Cienfuegos - I bombed it a couple times when I was in the F-4s - but I didn't know that somebody got that bastard. Good on the crew of USS Indianapolis. I think it's one of the Los Angeles class subs which survived the war, too. I know a bunch didn't make it.

I'm looking forward to meeting Major Ray. As for the experiment, I hope somebody smacked whoever thought that was a good idea. I was lucky enough to never have been a POW, and I thank God every day for it. I would hope that people ate a hospital would know better, too. As for reprisals, as I understand the smarter Soviet commanders avoided such things and actually tried to make like somewhat comfortable for the people in occupied zones. I doubt it made much of a damn, but at least these guys used their heads, and probably lived long enough to be tried for war crimes instead of beaten to death by an angry mob.

The Sandman

TheMann said: I'm looking forward to meeting Major Ray. As for the experiment, I hope somebody smacked whoever thought that was a good idea. I was lucky enough to never have been a POW, and I thank God every day for it. I would hope that people ate a hospital would know better, too. As for reprisals, as I understand the smarter Soviet commanders avoided such things and actually tried to make like somewhat comfortable for the people in occupied zones. I doubt it made much of a damn, but at least these guys used their heads, and probably lived long enough to be tried for war crimes instead of beaten to death by an angry mob.

If it had only been that pleasant for them. Most of the Soviet commanders who still had a core of honor and decency were either purged by Khvostov and his KGB buddies when Khvostov was made a Marshal and given command of the entire American theater in early '88 or committed suicide when they just couldn't take what the war had turned them into anymore.

The rest... as far as I know, the only decent Soviet commanders who made it out were the handful who had been sent to the labor camps back home instead of being shot out of hand during the purges. The rest stayed behind with their men and were either lynched or captured and tried.

You want to know what was really funny, in a twisted sort of way? The GRU was actually one of my best allies on the "try to restrain the atrocities" front, albeit more from practical concerns. Looking back on it, I don't think it was coincidence that Khvostov's promotion and the wide-scale adoption of his methods happened a week or so after all of the GRU operatives in the occupation force were replaced by KGB agents.

Matt Wiser

Khvoshtov was the KGB chief in Texas, which by that time was just about 2/3 of Texas, after PRAIRIE FIRE I and II. I've read that there were several attempts on his life, and not just from resistance people. Panzerfaust mentioned his superior, found dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, mentioning in his diary that Khvoshtov and his methods had fueled more resistance activity than he'd managed to suppress. I'll bet the GRU tried to kill him, and given KGB/GRU rivalries, that'd be no surprise. The guerillas tried at least once, and the sick bastard burned a whole town to the ground in retaliation. Panzerfaust also mentioned the...creature's trial, and the sicko basically defended himself right into a noose. They say both Goering and Juilus Streicher did the same at Nuremberg, so no surprise that some of these scum-suckers would do the same here.

Keegan has a chapter on the Winter of '87-88, where both sides were building up for what even his Russian Republic sources say was the expectation that, unless the U.S. screwed up big time, would be similar to the Vistula-Oder offensive in 1945, with the ComBloc in the Germans' place. Several convoys, despite the USN's best efforts, arrived in Mexican ports and delivered enough stocks of fuel, ammo, and replacement vehicles to get the ComBloc defense organized. But the U.S. and its allies were building up as well, though we were hampered by a lot of torn up railroads and roads, and supplies were slow to build up at first. In addition, Schwartzkopf and Powell met in OKC with the JCS and hammered out the plan for LONG RIFLE: the return to the I-10 line, and even did some preliminary work for BORDER FURY: the return to the Rio Grande. The ComBloc commanders knew that come spring, a large U.S. and Allied offensive (ROKs, Aussies, etc), was coming, and there wasn't much that they could do to stop it, after the failure of Midland-Odessa, which had burned up nearly all of their reserves. Raids, skirmishes, and other activity were the norm along a 700-mile front, from El Paso in the West to the I-45 corridor in the East. All the Soviets could do was wait for what was coming, and try some spoiling attacks in the meantime.

The Mann: how'd the meeting go? I did tell her about you, and she was looking forward to the meeting. Chances are, when you flew over Cuba, she may have seen your F-4 from one of the POW prisons.

TheMann

It went quite well, thank you. You got the part about her being a Demi Moore lookalike right, they do look alike. Though I must admit to the fact that seeing a woman like that being treated so badly by those Cuban pigs makes my blood boil that much more. Call that masculinity, hormones or whatever the hell ya like.

I didn't get a chance to take her up in the Corsair, but I did tell her all about my exploits in my F-4s and F/A-18s. She knew my name and a fair bit about my efforts (I think I know where she got the info from, Matt ), but I must admit I didn't know as much about her as I wish I did. I said right up front that if I asked a question she didn't want to answer, I'd drop the subject right there. That never came up, though. She's got quite a bit of willpower, that woman. I think anybody who says that women cannot fight as well as men needs to meet this woman. Seriously.

Matt Wiser

Find her book, it's on Amazon. The paperback for the movie tie-in should be out soon, though. She dedicates the book to her WSO, who didn't come back from Cuba. Kelly Ann was the pilot, and responsible for her backseater. Call it survivor's guilt. She came home in March '90. He didn't. That explains some of her not staying in for a while after homecoming. Then she got that job as a Deputy Sheriff in Pocatello, and then joined the 419th-she was there before I was-but we've gotten along fine. In fact, when she returns from this TDY for the movie, she'll be the new ops officer for the 419th-the previous one got transferred by Delta from SLC to Chicago, so he has to pack up and leave the 419. There's an F-16 unit in the Illinois ANG at Springfield, so he's joining the Guard His loss is Kelly Ann's gain (and hopefully a promotion to Lt. Col., if I have anything to say about it). And she's likely going to be on Court TV anyway, if the trials are going to be televised like the Tier I and II ones were, or the Grim Reaper's.
You still run across some of those Neanderthals every once in a while, unfortunately. After four years of war, the Cuban blockade post-Armistice until Fidel cried uncle, and all the postwar skirmishes, expeditions (Salem's bombardment in Yemen, for example), and the like, women have proved themselves time and again (ask the Cobra Chicks, my wife, that female Cav Squadron CO in 3rd ACR, or Lori Sheppard-the former guerilla now Sheriff, to name a few examples). Major Ray gave a talk at Utah State last year, and there were a few who wanted to go back to the prewar days as far as women in the military go, but they were a distinct minority.

What were you doing that winter of '87-88 while getting ready for LONG RIFLE? We were helping clean up the D/FW mess, so flying 3-4 times a day as weather allowed, and wondering why the Army was taking so long to clear out the D/FW Metroplex. Schwartzkopf went through one Corps Commander and two division commanders before he got the performance that "The Bear" was demanding. Quiet winter, as some of the books say? Not in that part of Texas. And it was a long winter and Spring rainy season-LONG RIFLE didn't kick off until mid-May.

Matt Wiser

Guys, has anyone read a book by a Brit author-Beevor I think is the guy's name-which goes into the war from PRAIRIE FIRE to BORDER FURY? If anyone's got any positive (or negative) reviews on it, put 'em out there, because I haven't seen it yet, but it's been advertised in the Borders in Ogden, and at the one in Pocatello as well. Bowden's got his book on the Cobra Chicks coming out by Christmas, and that's one I'm looking forward to reading.

Also, any news on the FOX series on the Wolverines? IIRC Senator Mason was going to be a technical advisor to the show, but her campaign for Governor of Colorado might get in the way.

One precondition to LONG RIFLE was the wrap-up of the Dallas-Fort Worth campaign, and it wasn't until 10 March 88 that the last of the ComBloc forces in the Dallas-Fort Worth area were rooted out. Schwartzkopf could finally concentrate on LONG RIFLE prep, and get Fifth Army ready to move south. Sixth Army-now commanded by former III Corps Commander Gen. Fred Franks after Gen. Michael Brandon died of a heart attack-also had took until March to wrap up what was left of Midland-Odessa and get set for the next round. And of course, Third Army (Powell) was set and ready to break out to the north out of Houston to push up the I-45 corridor to meet up with Fifth Army, somewhere between Houston and Dallas.

trekchu

I haven't read the book, but several blogs on the internet have good to very good reviews. Some moan about how they concentrate on the Commonwealth contributions, but that's only to be expected.

Chuck Mandus

Matt,

I just talked to the man with the Sopwith Camel, he will be willing to exhibit his plane, just give him a call and it will be arranged. He will even fly it at any airshows you might schedule too.

Matt Wiser

Chuck, I've gotten in touch with him: he'll be going to Scott AFB for the National Victory Day Air Show-the Scott AFB folks will be handling the details. And yes, he gets a C-20 ride with his family, his Camel rides in a C-17, and they get put up in VIP Quarters on the base. Hope he enjoys it.

The Air War College had a study on the non-Soviet ComBloc contribution when I was there in 1991-92. It's been declassified for about ten years, and I got a copy via AFHC. They rated the Cubans, East Germans, and North Koreans as most willing to do any mission. The Poles and Czechs were loyal as long as the ComBloc was winning, but when PRAIRIE FIRE started, they began to have other ideas: at Cannon AFB after it was retaken, we had a number of Czech AF people in the EPW compound, and they wanted to work on the base. You'd have 40-50 Czech EPWs, with only one or two guards, and none of them escaped or caused trouble. One day, as we were going out to the flight line to mount our aircraft, we found that every AF and Marine F-4, Marine A-4, and Marine A-6 had been washed until it was spotless, along with the Army and Marine Medevac choppers-inside and out. I've heard the Poles were just as cooperative once they were captured. Libyans and Angolans were more...unreliable-and one Soviet officer called both of them "absolutely useless, with Mexicans not far behind." The Nicaraguans were the same as the Czechs and Poles. But there was one interesting thing: as BORDER FURY pushed down to the Rio Grande, the Mexicans often fought like lions. They had been told that if they lost north of the river, the U.S. would grab several Mexican states on the border as "compensation" for Mexico's involvement in the war. III Corps in San Antonio was the first to find this out, along with X Corps in El Paso. I'll bet that II MEF in Corpus Christi did the same.

Getting the NASA stuff out took a lot of doing, but it was done. C-5s, C-141s, C-130s, requesitioned 747 freighters, you name it, by air. Several freighters, along with the assault carrier Belleau Wood, hauled what couldn't be flown out or trucked out, and several long convoys of trucks and buses hauled everything from people to the JSC Visitor's Center exhibits, to moon rocks, shuttle simulators, you name it, they hauled it away to Marshall Spaceflight Center in Huntsville, AL. One of the naval history magazines a few years ago had an article on the Belleau Wood's participation in the Houston evac-seeing the dissassembled Saturn V, in pieces on the flight deck, in photos was something. All three stages were next to each other on the flight deck, and one of the Little Joe boosters used for abort flight tests right behind that! That flight deck was crowded with rockets and other outdoor exhibits.

Trekchu: thanks for the update: I'll check those online reviews.

Matt Wiser

Trekchu: I did find some reviews, and yeah, he covers the Commonwealth a little more than the U.S., but hey, they helped us out big time, and one can say the favors owed from the two previous world wars were repaid. You can tell, one of the bloggers says, when the first picture in the photo section is of a British Cheftain and a Canadian M-113 "somewhere on the Alberta-Sasketchewan border, June, 1986." what he's emphasizing. He also treats the Aussies and Kiwis a lot, and one blogger gives credit where it's due, as there hasn't been a book (in North America anyway), dealing with the Aussie 1st Division's contribution, serving with III Corps.

One thing NASA learned since the war is to have a backup mission control ready just in case something happens in, or to, Houston. Ever since the end of the war, NASA has a fully operational mission control on standby at Marshall Space Center (their wartime home), just in case. A couple of times in the '90s, they had to activate the backup when hurricanes threatened the Houston area and a shuttle was in orbit. Glad to see wartime lessons still being heeded.

The Mann: you were in Corpus Christi after it was retaken, right? Were the Mexicans as tough there, like they were in El Paso and San Antonio? The Air War College study says they were, but I've read other accounts that present a mixed picture: some did fight like lions, but others were more like Italians in WW II: fire a few rounds, then surrender and they'd thank you for not killing them. Given that a lot of 'em had not much of a choice to join the Mexican Army, the latter doesn't surprise me at all. But others, though....San Antonio, Laredo, Eagle Pass/Del Rio, and El Paso, were quite the opposite.

And here's the best way to encounter a T-72: this one was a victim of PRAIRIE FIRE in Central New Mexico. One of our former ALOs had all of his wartime photos scanned and put on a CD, and he sent me this pic.

T-72_spalony.jpg

Dathi THorfinnsson

Matt Wiser said: Trekchu: I did find some reviews, and yeah, he covers the Commonwealth a little more than the U.S., but hey, they helped us out big time, and one can say the favors owed from the two previous world wars were repaid. You can tell, one of the bloggers says, when the first picture in the photo section is of a British Cheftain and a Canadian M-113 "somewhere on the Alberta-Manitoba border, June, 1986." what he's emphasizing. He also treats the Aussies and Kiwis a lot, and one blogger gives credit where it's due, as there hasn't been a book (in North America anyway), dealing with the Aussie 1st Division's contribution, serving with III Corps.

OOC: Alberta-Manitoba border!?:confused: Talk about a dystopia!

Matt Wiser

OOC: Sorry about that, I'll edit it to be Alberta-Sasketchewan. That's what happens when you're typing and the allergy meds are kicking in....

sloreck

Grad school first classes are tomorrow - quite a summer - finish classes, back on active duty & down to Cuba with the Marines - now back to school. Be interesting to see if I run into any types here who bemoan the demise of "Socialist-Progressive Cuba". All 3 ROTC branches got together for a seminar on the lessons of Cuba & I'll be talking about amphib warfare & military medicine. Also first 2 weeks of January, before Christmas break is over I'll be giving a series of lectures to the officers at Marine Corps University on the development of medical doctrine for amphibious warfare, and medical planning input for major OPLANS. On a less salubrious note was informed either deposition or prescence may be needed for the new war crimes trials as I was senior medical officer when we found the Gitmo graves.

My experience with the Mexican POWs I either treated or had to clear medically (before i went to the Tarawa ) was that most of them were campesinos drafted & indoctrinated that they were going to liberate their oppressed brethren in el Norte, and inciddentally liberate the wealth of el Norte as reparations for Gringo misdeeds. Hispanics in the US military freaked them out, and they wer genuinely shocked that "los Marinos" did not torture them as a matter of course. Of course a few were hard cases.

Matt Wiser

Let us know, Sloreck, if you run into such people. Some college campuses haven't caught up with the times, it seems. Kinda galls you, doesn't it? You put your life on the line defending this country against the worst foreign invasion it's ever seen, we've had millions dead, millions more homeless, a good chunk of the country was torn to hell, and you still have people bemoaning the fact that we won. And now they wail about us settling old scores with the Cubans? You might ask around and see if there's any fellow vets on campus. Maybe you can dig up some old secrets on those people. Hidden service in an "auxiliary" unit, perhaps? Or serving on one of those "Soviet-American Friendship Committees" in occupied territory. Do some digging, put an ad in the Campus newspaper, then sit back and watch the fireworks.

If I were you, I'd get ready for testifying at whatever tribunal is being established. Hell, one of the Tier II trials had some of our CSPs and the squadron flight surgeon testify about a mass grave they found in New Mexico, and since the doc was the first medical officer there, he got called in to testify. Doc Curtis never did say what he'd seen, not even at squadron reunions. The CSPs, though, did tell us that there "about a hundred" bodies in the grave, and they looked like they'd been dead for a year or so. This was west of Fort Sumner, btw. Quite a few locals came from Fort Sumner to see if missing loved ones were there, and some of them were, unfortunately. One more score to settle....

From page 53

Matt Wiser

Hey trekchu, where were you for LONG RIFLE? V or VII Corps? You may have seen our F-4s over Central Texas (we didn't just support III Corps, you know) on more than one occasion.

trekchu

We were wit VII for LONG RIFLE. Unfortunately we spent most of the early stages refitting.

Matt Wiser

Which means you missed the fun at Bryan-College Station. Be glad you did, because that one was a knock-down, fangs out, full-fledged brawl. Both cities changed hands at least twice, before College Station was taken by VII Corps, and Ivan pulled out of Bryan because he'd been outflanked. I've read that was the first time the U.S. Army ran into the ALA punks, any truth to that? III Corps did run into some in San Antonio-some just threw their AKs down and raised their hands-you know, the ones who joined just to get three meals a day and some extra ration cards for their families, and you did feel sorry for them, and the ones who'd been press-ganged into joining. The more...dedicated ones had to be rooted out, and these ones had a habit of not making it to the EPW compound, if you know what I mean.....

Hey Mann, did you ever hear the call sign "Starbuck" on the radio in Texas? That was then-1st Lt., now Lt. Col., Kara Sackhoff. She drove her F-4 like she'd stolen it, and did a few things in the air that made me, as squadron CO, question her sanity. Even now, I can't believe some of the stuff she did, but the three DFCs she got prove it. Like taking on eight MiG-21s with only two Phantoms-Herself and her wingie? She got three, the wingie got two, and the rest headed back south in wild disorder. By rights, one of those F-4s should've gone down, but both made it back to Bergstrom (this was after Austin had been liberated) without a scratch, but the maintenance guys had to check her plane-she'd tripped the G-Meter and had potentially overstressed the airframe. Her crew chief lost count of how many times he had to do that-Kara was that wild in the air. She runs the 390th TFS at Mountain Home, but if she gets promoted (as is somewhat likely) she'll go down to George AFB at Victorville as XO in the 35th TFW, or to La Paz AB in Baja to help run the composite wing there. (one squadron each of F-15Cs, one of -Es, and one F-16C squadron) If she gets Baja, I told her during the movie filming to "Pack your bikini."

Whatever happened to Ralph Nader since the war ended? He was pretty liberal, or "progressive" as they used to say amongst themselves, but since the immediate postwar years, he's kept a low profile. He wasn't in occupied territory as far as I know, but has anybody heard what exactly he did, or was he keeping his head low (and on his shoulders) for the duration? At least he's kept his mouth shut about the new muscle cars coming out of Detroit-the retro looking Mercury Cougar/Dodge Challenger and the '60's looking Camaro. This fighter jock wants one of the former.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Which means you missed the fun at Bryan-College Station. Be glad you did, because that one was a knock-down, fangs out, full-fledged brawl. Both cities changed hands at least twice, before College Station was taken by VII Corps, and Ivan pulled out of Bryan because he'd been outflanked. I've read that was the first time the U.S. Army ran into the ALA punks, any truth to that? III Corps did run into some in San Antonio-some just threw their AKs down and raised their hands-you know, the ones who joined just to get three meals a day and some extra ration cards for their families, and you did feel sorry for them, and the ones who'd been press-ganged into joining. The more...dedicated ones had to be rooted out, and these ones had a habit of not making it to the EPW compound, if you know what I mean.....

As one who flew air support several times during the Bryan-College Station slugging match, you aren't joking. I could see the guys on the ground, and if I was flying low level it often got hard to aim, because I REALLY didn't want to misplace my bomb and hit a M1 with it. That got easier once we started getting Mavericks in number, then we just went straight over their heads and fired once we were over the front lines, and the Mavericks always hit something.

Matt Wiser said: Hey Mann, did you ever hear the call sign "Starbuck" on the radio in Texas?

More than once. That was a couple nutcases in a F-4 who just about got themselves killed a bunch of times. I got told more than once to move out of the way for them, and they came blasting through, burners on, a hundred feet (if that) off the ground. Lunatics.

Matt Wiser said: That was then-1st Lt., now Lt. Col., Kara Sackhoff.

That was her? You shittin' me? :eek:

Matt Wiser said: She drove her F-4 like she'd stolen it, and did a few things in the air that made me, as squadron CO, question her sanity.

No question to me. Anybody blasting in at better than the speed of sound in a heavily loaded Phantom at a hundred feet off the deck is either awesomely brave or completely, totally insane.

Matt Wiser said: Even now, I can't believe some of the stuff she did, but the three DFCs she got prove it. Like taking on eight MiG-21s with only two Phantoms-Herself and her wingie? She got three, the wingie got two, and the rest headed back south in wild disorder. By rights, one of those F-4s should've gone down, but both made it back to Bergstrom (this was after Austin had been liberated) without a scratch, but the maintenance guys had to check her plane-she'd tripped the G-Meter and had potentially overstressed the airframe. Her crew chief lost count of how many times he had to do that-Kara was that wild in the air.

I tripped the G-meter a few times in the Phantoms over the Carribbean, usually when a Cuban AF plane of some sort showed up, but what I saw of this woman and what I've heard tells me she is either totally nuts or awesomely brave.

And yes, against eight MiG-21s, both Phantoms shoulda gone down, but then again, the quality of Russian pilots was horribly unequal even at the best of times, and we all got kinda good at kicking the Flying Brick into doing what we wanted them to.

Matt Wiser said: She runs the 390th TFS at Mountain Home, but if she gets promoted (as is somewhat likely) she'll go down to George AFB at Victorville as XO in the 35th TFW, or to La Paz AB in Baja to help run the composite wing there. (one squadron each of F-15Cs, one of -Es, and one F-16C squadron) If she gets Baja, I told her during the movie filming to "Pack your bikini."

I haven't been to Baja, but from what I've heard calling it a 'hardship station' is pretty idiotic, the locals love us down there. I know the huge Hispanic community in Miami makes sure I am always practically drowning in free drinks. I bring my Air Force ID along with me, and that's usually enough to get into anywhere I wish. If I get lucky, somebody recognizes the callsign, in which case my food and drink is often on the house. When I was a younger man, lots of the ladies would want me, too. Of course, being married by then to a former special forces soldier means I don't go for any of those women, her finding out could be a rather big problem if I did dabble around, and I'm not so stupid I think I could hide it from a woman who made a living tracking down Spetsnaz.

Matt Wiser said: Whatever happened to Ralph Nader since the war ended? He was pretty liberal, or "progressive" as they used to say amongst themselves, but since the immediate postwar years, he's kept a low profile. He wasn't in occupied territory as far as I know, but has anybody heard what exactly he did, or was he keeping his head low (and on his shoulders) for the duration? At least he's kept his mouth shut about the new muscle cars coming out of Detroit-the retro looking Mercury Cougar/Dodge Challenger and the '60's looking Camaro. This fighter jock wants one of the former.

Nader showed up in Florida last year, speaking to Florida's Hispanics. His best quote got a lot of attention here - "America isn't perfect, but it sure as hell beats most of the alternatives, and at least we here can change our fates." He was NOT a fan of the guys who sided with the Reds, calling them "a disgrace to American liberals." He's still pretty critical of comporations and the US Government, but he's still quite obviously pro-American and anti-Soviet. Glenn Beck called him a Red last year on CNN and Ralph punched him out for it.

As for the cars, I'm a proud owner of a 2000 Chevrolet Corvette with a lift-off roof. 5.7 liter V8, six-speed stick shift and a raft of upgrades. I bought it after it had been in an accident, and one of my old squadron mates' son owns a body shop in Miami Beach, and he fixed it for me for peanuts.

The upgrades came from a Cuban refugee, a local Pioneer distributor, who was a Mariel boatlift survivor who got to go see his old home after we kicked over Castro. He read about my unit in the papers (one newspaper did a story on me being an ace in WWIII who 20+ years later added three more kills to my sheet), and called me and my squadron up, wanting to thank us for the work we had done and the sacrifices we made, and whether we wanted any work on our cars done. Eight of us said yes, and he made a few calls to his buddies. My car got, and I'm conservatively guessing here, at least $20,000 in work done - new stereo, bodywork modifications, wheels, seats, exhaust system, GPS unit, paint, window tint, the whole works. It went from Red to being color-changing blue to green. I love it, and I demanded the guy who did it sign his name on the dash as a thank you for doing it.

I gotta agree on the new Camaro, though. I like the Challenger better myself, but both look very nice indeed. :cool:

Matt Wiser

The Cobra Chicks were pretty active there as well. If you heard the call sign "Angel" from a female voice, that was them. Only these were the Angels of Death. Popping tanks with TOWs from treetop level, or killing Shilkas (ZSU-23-4s) and SA-9s or SA-13s to make it easier for the fast movers were their specialties. Those gals never had a problem buying their own drinks, from either the armor or infantry people, or from us fixed-wing types-anyone making air-defense assets go away is always a friend.

Yeah, Kara was (and still is) pretty wild. Only now, Kara is Lisa's problem. At least my wife only sticks her nose into Kara's squadron when she has to, which isn't often. Kara often flew as my No. 3 when I led four-ships, and she listened to me until I called "Fight's on", and she and her wingie did their stuff their way, not mine. The previous CO (rest his soul) she nearly drove crazy, but there was no arguing with results. There was a time at Sheppard when we had problems with low-flying MiG-21Rs doing recon runs, and never could get in the right place at the right time to intercept. Kara went up on a "maintenance check flight" with her wingie, listened to AWACS report the -21Rs inbound, and she pounces like a mountain lion jumping on a goat. Kara took the lead Fishbed and nailed him with AIM-9, saw the other one break right, and killed him with AIM-7. All within 45 seconds. She landed back at Sheppard, and the then-CO just shook his head. (I had just become XO) For a squadron that mostly did air-to-ground stuff, we had our share of aces, and quite a few with two or three kills, but not enough to get the magic number of 5. Kara has 10 kills confirmed, plus four or five more unconfirmed. And we never had any problems with the recon MiGs again. They got the message to stay away. Air-to-ground? I'll go with incredibly brave. Her WSO was offered a new pilot if she wanted one, but said no, so you had either two incredibly brave people in that plane, or just two crazy ones. Or both.

Baja's the cushiest "Hardship Station" there is, but as long as the Mexicans keep squawking about retaking it (not likely)..... so enjoy the 20% hardship-duty bonus in your pay. At least the resorts still plan on offering military discounts after statehood goes through. Ever notice that every year, the Mexicans demand the UN do something about Baja, and the UN either votes it down or just plain ignores it? Guess the fact that the statehood referendum passed with what, 75% of the vote, and the status quo (protectorate) had 21% has a lot to do with it. (the remainder were either for reuniting with Mexico, or outright independence)

I've got a '69 Mercury Cougar convertible along with the Jeep Grand Cherokee-which still has a couple of bullet holes, while Lisa is a Mustang fan-she has a '72 Mach 1 Mustang. But I do want that new Cougar coming out.

trekchu

I'm still driving the 1977 V8 Vantage Coupe I got my hands on after we liberated a small town in Texas. Some Ivan had appropriated it somewhere, so it was in a sorry state when I got it, but now it's in prime condition again.

Chuck Mandus

Matt Wiser said: This one's for Chuck and The Mann: One thing that the Raven Rock mess involved were some PA ANG A-7s; they had been prepping to deploy to Chanute AFB in Illinois when the Spetsnatz made the botched drop, and the A-7s were called in to do some strafing runs as the 42nd ID and Marines cleaned the Spetsnatz troopers up. This pic was posted online, but was originally in the Osprey Book USAF A-7D Corsair Units of World War III. It's of one of the PA ANG birds heading out to Raven Rock, taken from a wingmate's aircraft. And The Mann: if you haven't gotten a copy yet for your friend, that'd make a great gift for his birthday or Xmas, whichever is first.

BTW, it is ironic you mention the PANG A-7's since the 112th was based here in Pittsburgh. My neighbor was in charge of their maintenance shop until they closed up in 1993 OTL. He just passed away too, but I do remember some of his stories. I was going to do an ATL on his obit, with name changed of course as well as the events for this ATL. He was in PANG since we had P-51's stationed there.

Matt Wiser

OOC: That'd be nice to see, Chuck.

IC: Hey, Mann, it wasn't just Kara, but her wingies, too. I asked her wingies (she had three total-two crews shot down, with one KIA, two MIA, and one POW) if they wanted to go to another flight, and they declined. They all did stuff that made you shake your head. They had a sign in their corner of the squadron office that said "You don't have to be crazy to fly with us, but it helps!" If you weren't a lunatic to begin with when you joined Kara's flight, you soon became one. We all were good at coming in low and fast, popping up to deliver your ordnance, and getting the hell away, but she was a master at it. She still is-Kara's a frequent visitor to the Wendover Range whenever live drops are permitted. How she managed to stay in the peacetime AF and get this far, I don't know. But Lisa's glad to have Kara running one of her squadrons, and not many of us with combat experience from the 1980s are still on duty, active or reserve.

One MiG driver who "dropped in" at D/FW had this to say when LONG RIFLE got started. It kinda sums it up from the ComBloc perspective, wouldn't you agree? "This war has been lost since July of 1986. Only the old men in the Kremlin won't admit it. All these exhortations for 'The final victory of Socialism' mean nothing, and everyone who fought and died for that slogan has died in vain." This was an SAF Colonel, mind you, who "dropped in" on D/FW Airport after an I-HAWK nailed his MiG-27 attack bird just before LONG RIFLE kicked off. Many Soviet (but not many Cuban) field-grade officers and above had such feelings, but kept them to themselves, naturally. He gave the minimum required under Geneva, but when an AF intelligence officer gave the man a cup of real coffee, he opened up and kept talking as long as the coffee kept coming. This fellow had been a Senior Lt. when the war began, got promoted as guys above him got themselves killed or captured, and was running a Regiment (three squadrons) when he was shot down. He also mentioned that the KGB was constantly on the lookout for "Defeatists and Traitors" as things got worse for the ComBloc from '87 to '89. "Non-belief in our Victory" was a frequent charge for those who were arrested, he said, and that penal battalions, rather than execution, were the preferred means to get rid of those arrested.

Anyone hear this: seems Hollywood's finally getting in on the Cobra Chicks. CNN's Showbiz Weekend reported that a deal is in the works for a movie based on the soon-to-be released book by Mark Bowden on the all-female chopper unit. No word on casting, but the deal's being finalized.

sloreck

Anyone else in on the liberation of Guam? I was MEF surgeon attached Tarawa on Victory Day, it was right after that I found out about my family and got some leave time to go back to where I had been when I was called up out of my fellowship with 4/14 when the war started - I mentioned all that went down in an earlier post so won't go over it again. When I got back to the ship told the MEF CO I was going to stay in & asked to stay with the mef for a while as there were the family I had left. We were part of the force that took Guam back a few months later.

It was really ugly. Reading the history books it was like the worst WW2 assaults against Japanese held islands, plus the battle of Manila where the Japanese used the civilians for cover. The NKs did all that and more. We had to go over the island inch by inch took zero EPWs, nada, zilch. There were no US POWS on the island, all killed or disappeared back to the DPRK or who knows where, and the local Gumanians were not treated much better. Some locals from the NG unit there managed to hide out in the jungle and keep in radio contact with US - we sent some SEALS and Marine Recon folks in to join them before the actual invasion. Just like the Japanese after WW2 a few NKs managed to hide out & last a year or two, however unlike Japanese stragglers they did not get to surrender when caught or finally gave up - the locals would just bring heads & any papers they had on the island constabulary posts.

sloreck

oh - on a brighter note thanks for the tip about the discount for military in Baja. Over Christmas break my (second) family & I will be headed down there for some R&R away from the books & Wisconsin winter.

Matt Wiser

Anytime, Sloreck. Lisa and I have been down there a few times, once before tying the knot (the squadron knew what we'd been doing most of the time when Doc Curtis, our trusty flight surgeon, saw that both of us were sunburned all over), and a couple of times since. Last time I was there was when I was XO of the 419th and our two week reserve stint took us to La Paz AB. All the street signs are bilingual now, with one change: they've taken kilometers off and changed to miles. All the TV networks have affiliates in both La Paz and Ensenada, there's talk of building I-5 further south to La Paz, and the list goes on. About the only sign of the war in La Paz that we saw was the abandoned SA-2 site outside the airport, which is also the AF base. Keep an eye on the news: their statehood petition goes before Congress pretty soon, and chances are pretty good they'll get it.

TheMann

trekchu said: I'm still driving the 1977 V8 Vantage Coupe I got my hands on after we liberated a small town in Texas. Some Ivan had appropriated it somewhere, so it was in a sorry state when I got it, but now it's in prime condition again.
An Aston Martin? Nice. I know a few Astons, TVRs, Jaguars, Caterhams, Jensens and the like came over here during or after the war, in a bunch of cases by British service guys who felt their cars would stand a better chance here than there, and lots of ships carried service guys and their stuff over.

One of my old wingmen from the war has a BMW M1 that (apparently) he salvaged, busted to all hell, from a former KGB forward base west of San Antonio. A KGB chickenshit was using it as his personal wheels. Now, getting parts for the thing post-war was difficult at best, so it got a bunch of ad-hoc modifications - Ford V8 engine and automatic gearbox, Corvette seats, mostly American bits and pieces. After the war, once BMW USA foiund out about it, they couldn't believe the state it was in, and they decided to fix it for him at no charge, as long as he promised to keep it a BMW. He made that promise, and he got it rebuilt for him. He's still got it, and he still loves it.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: IC: Hey, Mann, it wasn't just Kara, but her wingies, too. I asked her wingies (she had three total-two crews shot down, with one KIA, two MIA, and one POW) if they wanted to go to another flight, and they declined. They all did stuff that made you shake your head. They had a sign in their corner of the squadron office that said "You don't have to be crazy to fly with us, but it helps!" If you weren't a lunatic to begin with when you joined Kara's flight, you soon became one. We all were good at coming in low and fast, popping up to deliver your ordnance, and getting the hell away, but she was a master at it. She still is-Kara's a frequent visitor to the Wendover Range whenever live drops are permitted. How she managed to stay in the peacetime AF and get this far, I don't know. But Lisa's glad to have Kara running one of her squadrons, and not many of us with combat experience from the 1980s are still on duty, active or reserve.

Not many of us are left because we're all getting old, ya know? We're all getting towards the downchecks and age is catching up with all of us. That said, we're all still doing it, and most of us can still teach these young bucks a thing or two. I sometimes get a cocky young flier who has his godlike I-can-kick-anybody's-ass attitude, who then asks himself why his CO is an old guy who has been flying fighters for 25 years. Then we go up, I school his ass in how to make a Raptor move, and that arrogance goes away. I don't have to do that very often though, but my guys now often talk about when the FNG is gonna show up.

Matt Wiser said: One MiG driver who "dropped in" at D/FW had this to say when LONG RIFLE got started. It kinda sums it up from the ComBloc perspective, wouldn't you agree? "This war has been lost since July of 1986. Only the old men in the Kremlin won't admit it. All these exhortations for 'The final victory of Socialism' mean nothing, and everyone who fought and died for that slogan has died in vain." This was an SAF Colonel, mind you, who "dropped in" on D/FW Airport after an I-HAWK nailed his MiG-27 attack bird just before LONG RIFLE kicked off.

I'm sure he wasn't the first to say that. I know a Soviet Major said the same to the intel guys after his shot-up MiG-25RB landed on one engine at my base during the Siege of Houston. The war was definitely lost by then, just the dimwits in Moscow didn't have the balls to admit it or were too blind to see the truth. I'm guessing its the latter, if I'm honest. They got kinda delusional over there.

Matt Wiser said: Anyone hear this: seems Hollywood's finally getting in on the Cobra Chicks. CNN's Showbiz Weekend reported that a deal is in the works for a movie based on the soon-to-be released book by Mark Bowden on the all-female chopper unit. No word on casting, but the deal's being finalized.

I did know about that, because my cousin Sarah and my niece Julia are out in LA right now, trying to get parts. Apparently Rihanna and Anglina Jolie are among those who want in on that movie. A great start, if you ask me. A bunch of the top male actors are also fighting to get in it, according to my family members.
Last edited: Sep 8, 2009

Matt Wiser

Picking up Ivan's ill-gotten gains and putting them to good use, hmm? No problem with that, since it's likely the previous owner either disappeared into a camp or just plain disappeared, period. One thing I think Panzerfaust, if he's still around, would probably highlight was Ivan's list to loot, and not just from factories. Lots of senior officers driving around in Cadillacs or other luxury cars, appropriating million-dollar houses, things like that. They also gave each Combloc soldier a 10 kilo package a month to ship goodies back home, and when we started pushing them back, you'd be surprised at the amount of looting and pilliage that went on. And at what they took. You had Soviets from remote villages in Central Asia or Siberia shipping electronics back home, even though their homes had no electricity, for example. Some thought a VCR could work without the TV, etc, etc. Speaking of cars, Lisa found the Mach 1 Mustang in Wichita Falls, just sitting in a garage. All it needed was a new battery and some gas in the tank. Nobody came forward postwar to claim the car, and she's had it ever since. There's an Intermountain West Mustang Show in Salt Lake every year, and we take the Mustang there if duty permits.

Hey Mann, how'd you like the sign Kara had over her part of the squadron office? Given the way she flew and the company she kept, it doesn't surprise me at all. Some pipsqueak of an inspector tried complaining to General Tanner (think of this guy as Lt. Fuzz in Beetle Bailey-only worse) about the sign and how I was running the squadron generally, but this was an idiot who read the book only, and didn't know when to throw away the book. Tanner came by D/FW (this was about a month after I got the squadron) and brought the inspector with him. Everything went fine: I got confirmed as CO and promoted to Major, the squadron was reccommended for an AF Unit Commendation, and some supply requests that had been delayed were fixed-right then and there, thanks to the General getting on the phone and telling the supply people to send us what we were asking for. Oh, and the pipsqueak? Tanner had him reassigned-to some Air-Defense radar in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. General Tanner doing things like that is what made 10th Air Force do anything for him. He took care of everyone under his command; including the land-based Navy and Marine squadrons. Not to mention his flying around in a C-130 when he could've had a C-20 Gulfstream or that DC-10 flying hotel I mentioned earlier. We were his "kids." And heaven help anyone who got in the way of his "kids" doing their jobs.

The Sandman

Location:A twisty maze of passages, all alike
One person in particular that I still wonder about is Rafael Guillén. He was an interesting character; leftist views, but with a unique spin on them, what seemed to be actual concern for the situation of the poor and the indigenous peoples in Mexico and Central America, and a definite sense of... "realism", I suppose you might call it, after seeing what the Communists were doing to said poor and indigenous peoples. I met him back in, oh, 1990 or '91, when the Russian Republic was working on getting some of the inherited Soviet assets out of Mexico before the expected US invasion; he was teaching at UAM in Mexico City at the time, and he and his students were already being watched by the regime.

I tried to convince him to get out of Mexico while he still could and come to the Russian Republic, where we could have used his viewpoint, but he wasn't willing to abandon his people like that. Since I was pretty sure that he was going to say that anyway, I didn't begrudge him that, but I did try to stay in contact with him via letters and reports by the handful of friends I'd placed in Mexico after the war. Last I heard, about a year or two back, he was somewhere in Chiapas province, but I don't know what he's been up to since, and was hoping one of you folks might have access to some sources I don't.

OOC: You may know this guy better as Subcomandante Marcos of the Zapatistas in OTL. I figure that he's had a similar political trajectory in this world, except that he would have gained a strong dislike for Communism after getting an up close and personal view of it in practice. I'm thinking that he'd be some sort of nonviolent anarcho-liberal, and have taken to heart the Soviet joke that "the difference between capitalism and communism is that in capitalism man oppresses man; in communism it's the other way around."

trekchu

TheMann said: An Aston Martin? Nice. I know a few Astons, TVRs, Jaguars, Caterhams, Jensens and the like came over here during or after the war, in a bunch of cases by British service guys who felt their cars would stand a better chance here than there, and lots of ships carried service guys and their stuff over.

One of my old wingmen from the war has a BMW M1 that (apparently) he salvaged, busted to all hell, from a former KGB forward base west of San Antonio. A KGB chickenshit was using it as his personal wheels. Now, getting parts for the thing post-war was difficult at best, so it got a bunch of ad-hoc modifications - Ford V8 engine and automatic gearbox, Corvette seats, mostly American bits and pieces. After the war, once BMW USA foiund out about it, they couldn't believe the state it was in, and they decided to fix it for him at no charge, as long as he promised to keep it a BMW. He made that promise, and he got it rebuilt for him. He's still got it, and he still loves it.

My Aston barely ran until after the war, but when the company began to operate in the US again, I managed to have it fixed at a symbolic charge ( $1 ) by them, they even painted it in British Racing Green, provided I lent it to them for a few photographs after it was done. The wife was not happy that I kept this almost wreck in the garage for almost five years.
Last edited: Sep 7, 2009

Matt Wiser

Well, since we haven't invaded Mexico yet (Give us time, it took twenty years to settle old scores with Cuba...), he's probably still in Chiapas. Remember, though, there's at least half dozen rebel groups down there, and some militantly anti-Communist, some demanding Mexico resume the war (even though Mexico's in no shape to do so-hell, they can't fight a real COIN campaign, let alone pick another fight with the U.S.), you get the idea. Why we didn't grab the oil fields along the Gulf Coast when we had the chance, I don't know. If we'd rejected the Mexican call for an armistice on the border and pushed south....then said "OK, you want out of the war, here's what you have to do." The lefties who still broadcast from Mexico City into the U.S. are good for laughs if nothing else. All the hard-core ones went to Havana (and some are now in jail awaiting trial), Pyongyang, Caracas, or Moscow.

Hey Mann, as long as I can pass a flight physical, and the AF will let me, I'll keep flying F-15Es. Same for Lisa, too. And our kids are all going to be AF-two to the Academy, one to UCLA and AFROTC. (she got a Volleyball scholarship) There's still vets from the 1982 Lebanon War and from here still flying for the Israelis, and I guess DOD doesn't want to lose the combat vets until we all hit retirement age. Here in 419 we've still got over a dozen pilots and ten WSOs with combat time from the 1980s, and there's a lot of Reserve and Guard squadrons with the same thing. Active duty, though... Lisa, Kara, and maybe a dozen total in the whole 366th. Same thing elsewhere.

Entertainment Tonight also had the Cobra Chicks movie story: Kelly Preston is also trying for a role, as is Lucy Liu. The Army is being very cooperative, they say.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: picking up Ivan's ill-gotten gains and putting them to good use, hmm? No problem with that, since it's likely the previous owner either disappeared into a camp or just plain disappeared, period.

Ain't that the truth. Though once the war was over, damn near anything that people wanted that the Commies left behind got salvaged, and we got osme in return, though sometimes I wish we hadn't gotten some of it. They have real problems in Texas and some of the Plains States with criminals packing AK-47s and other Russian weapons, left behind by the bastards. (Though apparently, lots of stuff got appropriated by local police forces after the war. Let's not forget how the Texas Rangers solved that compound standoff near San Angelo a couple years back, knocking down the gates and driving the Rangers into the coumpound with a handful of ex-Russian BMP-2s.

Matt Wiser said: One thing I think Panzerfaust, if he's still around, would probably highlight was Ivan's list to loot, and not just from factories. Lots of senior officers driving around in Cadillacs or other luxury cars, appropriating million-dollar houses, things like that.

I seem to recall that the Governor's mansion in Oklahoma City for a while was owned by some Russian bigshot at his personal home. I know a helluva lot of people fled out of the way of the Russians during the war, too, which meant that plenty of stuff did get away from those vultures.

Matt Wiser said: they also gave each Combloc soldier a 10 kilo package a month to ship goodies back home, and when we started pushing them back, you'd be surprised at the amount of looting and pilliage that went on. And at what they took. You had Soviets from remote villages in Central Asia or Siberia shipping electronics back home, even though their homes had no electricity, for example. Some thought a VCR could work without the TV, etc, etc.

I knew of that too. We found a base that we took over that the Russians had stripped clean, along with most nearby towns. They didn't bother with any cars, just took pickups and four wheel drive vehicles. I didn't take us long to figure out why, either. We had it confirmed when one USS Barbel sank a Russian ro-ro trying to get away from Houston. When it was raised, it had no military vehicles on it, it was all vehicles from the USA headed to the USSR. A few Cadillac and Lincoln luxury sedans, but mostly pickups and SUVs. (Though they did find a Lamborghini Countach on it. I hope somebody killed that bastard.)

Also, with regards to looting, I wasn't in it, but I know some of the A-10 guys shot the hell out of a convoy of retreating Russians heading south on Texas Route 77 from Corpus Christi, and they didn't have the military vehicles to get away, so they ran with whatever wheels they could get, from trucks to motorcycles. They picked up hundreds of bodies from that one, and the A-10 drivers were all hoping to hell they hadn't strafed the hell out of a convoy of civilians. They were real nervous for a while.

Matt Wiser said: Speaking of cars, Lisa found the Mach 1 Mustang in Wichita Falls, just sitting in a garage. All it needed was a new battery and some gas in the tank. Nobody came forward postwar to claim the car, and she's had it ever since. There's an Intermountain West Mustang Show in Salt Lake every year, and we take the Mustang there if duty permits.

Nice. My brother similarly found a Maserati Bora at a ComBloc base they had abandoned. It apparently was the base commander's wheels, and he'd been killed by an air strike, and he'd scared the air crews so bad that nobody even touched it after he was gone. Bro won it off his fellow fliers in a poker game, and he's still got it.

Matt Wiser said: Hey Mann, how'd you like the sign Kara had over her part of the squadron office? Given the way she flew and the company she kept, it doesn't surprise me at all.

It didn't surprise me either. Though I imagine that a few guys in the AF probably didn't like it much.

Matt Wiser said: Some pipsqueak of an inspector tried complaining to General Tanner (think of this guy as Lt. Fuzz in Beetle Bailey-only worse) about the sign and how I was running the squadron generally, but this was an idiot who read the book only, and didn't know when to throw away the book. Tanner came by D/FW (this was about a month after I got the squadron) and brought the inspector with him. Everything went fine: I got confirmed as CO and promoted to Major, the squadron was recommended for an AF Unit Commendation, and some supply requests that had been delayed were fixed-right then and there, thanks to the General getting on the phone and telling the supply people to send us what we were asking for. Oh, and the pipsqueak? Tanner had him reassigned-to some Air-Defense radar in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. General Tanner doing things like that is what made 10th Air Force do anything for him. He took care of everyone under his command; including the land-based Navy and Marine squadrons. Not to mention his flying around in a C-130 when he could've had a C-20 Gulfstream or that DC-10 flying hotel I mentioned earlier. We were his "kids." And heaven help anyone who got in the way of his "kids" doing their jobs.

Tanner was yours, and when I was in the Midwest, Brigadier General Hayman was our man. He died of a heart attack last year, sadly, but during the war, we were his boys, and he took that seriously. It was always good to have a boss who knew what you were fighting for, and knew when to say "look, son, the book rules aren't helping here, so don't try to enforce them too hard, alright?" I have the similar story of the bozo who didn't want to send me a chopper, who Hayman over-ruled. The Generals on our side, by a year or so in, knew exactly what they were oding, who they were fighting for, and they knew that it was our job to shoot at people, it was their job to lead and make sure we got what we needed to do the jobs we had been given. They all took that seriously, as I'm sure we can all attest to.

Matt Wiser

Didn't some reporter call Hwy. 77 "The Highway of Death?", or some other such nonsense? It had to be the same schmuck who called U.S. 177 south of Stillwater the same thing after we hit the retreating ComBloc REMF types with CBUs and napalm. Yeah, there were some civilian vehicles there too, but they'd had a coat of green paint slapped on and a red star, so they were being used by the bad guys. One thing about Ivan: he could improvise when he had to: one of the AA mounts we saw often in both Oklahoma and Texas were open-bed trucks: Fords, Chevys, etc. with either ZU-23s or Quad 14.5s in the back. Nobody got nailed by them in 335, but you had to be careful-all it'd take was one lucky gunner. And they paired those gun trucks with grunts packing SA-7s or SA-14s. But they could be deadly to choppers, though, and often were.

We heard about Hayman, too. He's the kind of guy we would've served under if we didn't have General Tanner. Too bad we had some deadwood last nearly the whole war. How high did Hayman get? Tanner retired as a four-star and Vice Chief of Staff of the AF. He runs a defense think-tank in the L.A. area last I heard.

Osprey's got another book coming that is going to raise some eyebrows: they've gotten some Russian Republic and Cuban sources now, and soon to hit the bookstores is a work on the MiG-29 in World War III. Now that the Cuban records are available, another chapter in the air war can get told. (without the propaganda spin Fidel used to put out)

It's official now: Col. Cindy Moreau's husband Rich is now CO of the 320th Bomb Wing at Mather AFB, outside Sacramento. SAC now has its first pair of Wing COs who are husband and wife. Makes you wonder what LeMay would've thought if he was still around. But I remember what he said to me at the first Victory Day air show at Scott AFB: "Times change, Major, and the Air Force has to change with the times. Congratuations on your marriage, and many happy landings." This was after he decorated then-Major Cindy Moreau for one of her Eastern Siberia runs.

The Sandman

Matt Wiser said: Picking up Ivan's ill-gotten gains and putting them to good use, hmm? No problem with that, since it's likely the previous owner either disappeared into a camp or just plain disappeared, period. One thing I think Panzerfaust, if he's still around, would probably highlight was Ivan's list to loot, and not just from factories. Lots of senior officers driving around in Cadillacs or other luxury cars, appropriating million-dollar houses, things like that. They also gave each Combloc soldier a 10 kilo package a month to ship goodies back home, and when we started pushing them back, you'd be surprised at the amount of looting and pilliage that went on. And at what they took. You had Soviets from remote villages in Central Asia or Siberia shipping electronics back home, even though their homes had no electricity, for example. Some thought a VCR could work without the TV, etc, etc.

Heh, I remember those types. One of the things that helped keep their depredations a bit lower in Texas, at least the bits where I had any semblance of authority, was that they were oh so very ignorant about what exactly constituted the latest and greatest in technology. My personal favorite was seeing an entire truck filled with Atari 2600 cartridges on its way towards Corpus Christi. Hope they enjoyed E.T. as much as we did.

Of course, the other thing that helped was that after Houston and Laredo, not to mention all of the other usual day-to-day executions and people getting shipped south to Mexico, there were a lot of people who weren't going to be needing their stuff anymore. Encouraging grave robbing is better than having to watch the living stripped of everything they own at gunpoint, but I can tell you that keeping that in your head helps less than you might think.

TheMann said: I seem to recall that the Governor's mansion in Oklahoma City for a while was owned by some Russian bigshot at his personal home. I know a helluva lot of people fled out of the way of the Russians during the war, too, which meant that plenty of stuff did get away from those vultures.

Unless my memory is completely failing me, that would have been Khvostov. Although frankly, I'd be surprised if he really made use of the place. Given what I saw of the bastard's living habits the couple of times he was in Austin while I was Governor, he was one of the true believers. Felt that "bourgeois comforts" were beneath him, and had his rooms stripped of anything he felt was not befitting the New Soviet Man.

He was also the one that made me shoot my Chief of Staff. That, I remember quite clearly. Especially the way that his Mexican and East German counterparts were practically salivating as he described what he was going to have them do to her if I didn't denounce and shoot her right there, but Khvostov himself never so much as changed inflection. Just... a vague tone of disinterest in the whole proceeding, and a clinical detachment that I still hear in my nightmares.

I hope he finally broke when he was about to die, so that he finally got the chance to see how things looked from the other side of the torture chamber. But given the way the world seems to be most days, I doubt it.

I knew of that too. We found a base that we took over that the Russians had stripped clean, along with most nearby towns. They didn't bother with any cars, just took pickups and four wheel drive vehicles. I didn't take us long to figure out why, either. We had it confirmed when one USS Barbel sank a Russian ro-ro trying to get away from Houston. When it was raised, it had no military vehicles on it, it was all vehicles from the USA headed to the USSR. A few Cadillac and Lincoln luxury sedans, but mostly pickups and SUVs. (Though they did find a Lamborghini Countach on it. I hope somebody killed that bastard.)

Wait, was that Lamborghini black with white and gold stripes? If it was, I think I know the man who used to own it. Legally purchased for real money and full value, plus a bit extra for custom paint job. Russian general named Pavel Andreyevich, he was one of the good guys. Of course, the Imperial Russian decor didn't sit very well with the chekist minders, or his habit of actually leaving receipts for what he requisitioned for his men, or the way his troops tended to "discipline" Cubans or Mexicans who didn't at least try to behave with some basic decency to the civilians.

Khvostov had Andreyevich and the rest of his command staff lined up at the Alamo and shot after Midland-Odessa, of course. I heard rumors that he'd actually considered decimating the rest of the division before the new commander told him that there just weren't enough men left in it to make the punishment effective. I'd always thought he'd had the car destroyed afterwards as a final gesture, but I guess even he couldn't do that to a Lamborghini. Or more likely somebody close to the Politburo wanted it and overruled his demolition order.

From page 55

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: So the Cubans and Mexicans were the defenders there. How'd you guys find that out? Either the SR-71 or RF-4C imagery told you, or it was found out the hard way....Did any of the Cuban or Mexican EPWs repeat that story the Soviets told 'em, about the U.S. slicing off parts of Mexico if they lost? One thing that was talked about a lot at the Air War College when I was there as a student was why didn't we do just that? Grab the oil and gas fields on the Gulf Coast and keep 'em until the reparations were paid out of the proceeds? Mexico City still owes about half of what was assessed postwar.

We found out (we being our Intell btn) when the line doggies got us EPWs to speak to...though there weren't that many. The nature of the fighting in both places made prisoners a bit scarce on the ground. I will say this much...were EPWs shot out of hand...yes. Especially at this point with guys dying with the end in sight. Pissed a lot of line doggies off, hell, pissed all of us off. I saw a few instances. Professionally, it pissed me off..personally, I understood. Hell, there was some guys in some of the line units...you just didn't leave EPWs in their care.

Matt Wiser

Panzerfaust, were you guys happy with the overheads that came your way? The SR-71 guys didn't have a problem the entire war, but the RF-4Cs and the Navy's RF-8s and the F-14s with TARPS pods took their share of lumps. Too bad the RA-5C had been retired in '79....some got reactivated from AMARC, and did good work. And there were some Vietnam vets with Vigilante time in their logbooks who came back to the cockpit. We always bought a case or two of "whatever they drank" to the recon guys for getting us the pre- and post-strike imagery.

Killing EPWs out of hand is something nobody wants to talk about, but it did happen. Not just this time, but in every war. It seems that KGB or DGI guys and some members of "auxiliary" units had a hard time making it back to the EPW compounds. When there was a big one outside Cannon AFB, the MPs said that those two categories were least represented among the EPW population. And anyone who was a sniper almost never made it back, the MPs said.

The Army kept the Cobra Chicks active postwar: They were reflagged, and they're now known as 5-229 Avn (Attack), part of XVIII Airborne Corps' Aviation Brigade, with AH-64s and a few Blackhawks. One thing the Army learned from the war was to have a Ranger company or a Ranger-qualified infantry company attached to attack helo units to provide muscle in Search-and-Rescue missons. So the Cobra Chicks now have a company of air-assault troopers who are all Ranger qualified to go with 'em on Combat SAR.

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: Panzerfaust, were you guys happy with the overheads that came your way? The SR-71 guys didn't have a problem the entire war, but the RF-4Cs and the Navy's RF-8s and the F-14s with TARPS pods took their share of lumps. Too bad the RA-5C had been retired in '79....some got reactivated from AMARC, and did good work. And there were some Vietnam vets with Vigilante time in their logbooks who came back to the cockpit. We always bought a case or two of "whatever they drank" to the recon guys for getting us the pre- and post-strike imagery.

Killing EPWs out of hand is something nobody wants to talk about, but it did happen. Not just this time, but in every war. It seems that KGB or DGI guys and some members of "auxiliary" units had a hard time making it back to the EPW compounds. When there was a big one outside Cannon AFB, the MPs said that those two categories were least represented among the EPW population. And anyone who was a sniper almost never made it back, the MPs said.
Yeah, having helped run a few of those EPW cages, I can attest to the validity of those statements. Hell, the worst time we had was when a bunch of returning locals in some small town in Southeast Texas found out we were using their city square (what was left of it) as a temporary EPW enclosure. I'm there, with about oh, 4 MPs and 2 other interrogators and a half-dozen casuals. So, 10 folks watching about 500-600 EPWs, many of them Soviet and Cuban line doggies (we'd already processed and sent on the officers and KGB/Auxiliaries). There wasn't much intell value to most of the prisoners, so, we were babysitting them till a transpo company showed up with some duce and a halfs for them in the morning. Well, a caravan of cars and trucks show up...it seems the local populace was coming back..and they were none too happy with us...or the Commies about what had been done to their town. And there was about 3-400 of them...and they had everything from clubs to AKs and they wanted to start lynching EPWs.

Well, happily, the two HMMWVs we had were both armed...and after an object lesson with a .50 cal and someone's Volvo....the townspeople decided to leave us alone...I'll be damned if all of us...EPWs included weren't happy to leave at 0520 the next morning.

As for imagery, I dealt with human collection, so I didn't deal with imagery much. But, from what I saw, we got good takes from you all. Post-war with the releases of information, the takes are nothing short of startling. Though, NRO and SAC are being tight-lipped about their IMIGINT and ELINT take during the war.

Matt Wiser

Well, speaking as one of the users of the imagery, the recon people did a great job. Even if the Tac Recon guys and gals took their lumps: some units had 50% attrition in the early days. You know the saying the recon folks have: "Alone, Unarmed, and Unafraid." Or the other verison: "Alone, Unarmed, and Very Much Afraid." Either one applies. Then there's their other motto: "In God We Trust: All Others We Monitor."

Seeing locals want revenge on EPWs was pretty common during PRAIRIE FIRE, LONG RIFLE, and BORDER FURY. When the squadron was moving from D/FW Airport to Bergstrom (wish they'd sent us to Waco Regional Airport instead), the fellas running the squadron's ground convoy said that locals living near I-35 would throw whatever was available at passing columns of EPWs. And those guarding the prisoners reminded them that if anyone escaped, it was more than likely that they'd be lynched by the locals, so they'd best not try. There were some that did try, however, and the corpses hanging from trees and telephone poles served as an adequate deterrent to anyone else trying to escape.

You guys also deal with escaped POWs-meaning ours? That happened with us on several occasions in both New Mexico and in Texas. It just made you not only feel sorry for those guys and gals, but when you heard them tell their stories....not only did it make you glad you weren't captured, but it just got your blood boiling. Given that we had squadron mates and other friends who were POWs, it just made you that more determined to win.

sloreck

Before I used the GI bill (first time) to go to med school I was a navy intel type for 5 years at the end of Vietnam. worked with RA-5C imagery then. Those birds used to drag race F-4s & win every time, but were restricted to 2nd tour pilots cause their landing characteristics were really rugged & they were known as ensign killers. The TFs that hit Petropavlosk during the war, and Guam to take it back from the NKs had a few Viggies on the carriers. Beautiful in the air but got nervous every time one landed in marginal conditions. You fly guys ever see a "Viggie-Zippo". They'd do a low pass through the TF dumping fuel, then hit the afterburner - wow during the day unreal at night.

Never got to have much of a wild time on R&R, left a wife & 2 kids when got called up 1st 24hrs of the war - they ended up behind enemy lines & I spent most of the war thinking of them, did not find out they were dead until after the surrender. Ol doc bear could drink Marines under the table however, my secret was a special vitamin mix I downed before partying.

Grad school is going well, gave my first lecture to the ROTC guys last week. Not much squawking about Cuba here, but there are a few, and one particularly obnoxious type never watched cop shows I guess, because a glass he put down at a department party somehow ended up getting dusted & we are awaiting the results.

I won't admit I saw any EPWs shot out of hand, but there were some mighty quick applications of the UCMJ with immediate execution of sentence.

Matt Wiser

Hey Panzerfaust, did you guys have any...similar incidents? Or did word get around the locals not to mess with you guys re: EPWs? And did you guys debrief any of our escaped POWs? Our squadron intel shop and the Marine Air Group's had that duty a few times. Not pleasant reading, those debriefs-we got briefed on them.....

One thing that we had a laugh about was when one of New Mexico's Senators (he'd been out of D.C. at his ranch near Santa Fe on Invasion Day) came by Cannon to thank us during Phase I of PRAIRIE FIRE. Our then-CO (rest his soul) was explaining some recon imagery, and the guy was wondering what "occupied" and "unoccupied" meant on the photos. Remembering that JFK had asked the same question during the Cuban Missile Crisis, the CO showed the Senator some RF-4C pics of a ComBloc bivouac, with a field latrine: there was a guy sitting on the commode and that was labled "occupied", the latrine next to him was labeled "unoccupied." The Senator understood perfectly.

Well, I got a call from AFHC at home yesterday; the final paperwork's in the mail to confirm the three kills I had as probables. The record has been amended to list the three kills previously reported as probables to confirmed, so the bureaucrat said. Once the paperwork's on my desk, then I can have the crew chief paint those three extra red stars on the Wing CO's bird.

Matt Wiser

OK, guys, the next chapter of Keegan's book deals with events between September '87 and May of '88, which both sides feel was the calm before the final storm in North America. The Soviets tried to resupply and reequip their remaining forces in Texas as best they could, and the same was said for their efforts in getting supplies to Alaska. At best, only 40% of what was needed got through the USN's anti-shipping efforts in the Atlantic and Caribbean to Mexican ports such as Vera Cruz and Tampico. In Alaska, it was somewhat better, but only half of what was shipped made it. And what was the Kremlin's response? Both the Commanders of the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet were "retired." (the latter post was filled three times during the war....) The other problem in supplying Alaska and Canada was SAC: their Eastern Siberia runs causing delay after delay in shipping supplies to ports on the Soviet Pacific Coast.

In Europe, the neutralist governments in the Low Countries, Norway, Denmark, and Italy were either being turned out of office via the ballot box, or in Italy's case, the threat of a coup forced the Communist-dominated government to resign. West Germany had a similar turnover in Government, after revelations in the popular magazine Der Spiegel revealed that a number of ministers in the Green-dominated government were either Soviet agents or otherwise on the Soviet payroll. A number of Bundeswehr general officers, together with their Luftwaffe counterparts, decided that matters could not wait, and openly denounced the pro-Soviet attitude of the now-shaky Green Government. When it was finally revealed that the Green Chancellor was a paid KGB asset (via a BND file that suddenly found its way to the TV Network ZDF), and had been for several years before and during the war, that was enough. The government fell, and many of those listed as KGB agents, fellow travelers, or "useful idiots" fled to the Soviet Union. And the new government renounced the neutrality declaration of its now-discredited and disgraced predecessor, and openly called on the East German Army and People to rise up against the Soviets. The French called on the Soviets to either accept the latest U.S. offer of a cease-fire and Soviet withdrawal, or she too, would openly support the U.S. war effort "by whatever means are available." When the Kremlin refused to reply, the French openly began shipping war materiel and food to the U.S. East Coast, the former including Milan ATGMs, Roland SAMs, and NATO-standard artillery, mortar, and small arms ammunition, in convoys escorted by U.S. and French warships.

Unlike the previous winter, the winter of 1987-88 was a quiet one in Texas, as this time, the ComBloc was biding its time, waiting for the axe to fall come spring, and they would need every soldier, tank, and piece of equipment they had. However, in Alberta and British Columbia, a limited Soviet offensive did take place, to try and "pinch out" some bulges in their lines. While the attack in British Columbia failed, as one of the two Soviet divisions involved was cut to pieces and routed by very determined Canadian and U.S. defenders, the Alberta phase did pinch out two small salients, both fifty miles from the Montana border. Both attacks were division-sized, as the Soviet supply situation (not to mention deteriorating weather) ruled out a major Army-level operation. And one raid by a tank brigade towards the Montana border resulted in demands from the Montana Governor for additional troops in the state, resulting in the transfer of the newly-arrived 96th ID from the Mexican border in Arizona to Montana (trading heat, scorpions, dust, and spiders for frightful cold, blowing snow, and ice-hard ground- "shudder").

Pyro

The winter of 87-88 in Lethbridge was pretty bad to my recollection. Food and heating was pretty scarce because the Soviets took pretty much everything. Unfortunately it wasn't uncommon to hear that a kid my age died from starvation, or the cold.

Matt Wiser

Hey Pyro, from what you've read, did Trudeau ever say or do anything to atone for his military cuts? Some of the Congresscritters here who'd been anti-military in the '70s and early '80s paid at the polls in '86 and '88 (even in wartime, we still had elections, like in the Civil War), those who weren't in D.C. that is. A few were unapologetic, but most realized that they wouldn't get reelected, and didn't run. Those who were unrepentant about their anti-military attitudes lost-every one of 'em. And some were targets of death theats, harassment, etc.

Typical Ivan: take everything not nailed down for himself, and leave the civilians to fend for themselves.

trekchu

What I find the strangest thing about the Germans during these years was that they still put a Social-Democrat into Office as Chancellor. But that's maybe because he had been one of the most vocal opponents of the neutrality before... That was what cost him the election before the war, but now they all knew that he had been right all along.

OOC: "Der Spiegel" as saviour of German Democracy... Awesome!

Pyro

Matt Wiser said: Hey Pyro, from what you've read, did Trudeau ever say or do anything to atone for his military cuts?

Not to my knowledge. He was adamant in his belief that he never could have foreseen the invasion and never apologized for it, so there were not a lot people that mourned his passing nine years ago. While WWIII united the country is some ways, there is some lingering bitterness between Western and Central Canada because British Columbia and Alberta took the brunt of the invasion while Ontario was barely even touched. There are even a few fringe parties that favor the West's secession from Canada and annexation to the United States.

Matt Wiser

Well, none of the anti-military congresscritters here did the same. Same excuses and all the rest. The Democrats were actually glad to see those people gone, as they've had a hard time getting over their anti-military image they had ever since McGovern in '72, and more recently, Mondale in '84.

Fringers asking for U.S. annexation of B.C. and Alberta? They want to be like Baja, I take it? Even though they were allied and not enemy territory.

When's that airshow you talked about earlier? Tell those in charge about the husband-and-wife wing COs down here and we'll gladly fly up. I won't be in the F-4, as it's not ready yet (i.e. fully demilitarized-I still have to deactivate the gun and the fire-control system). But his-and-hers F-15Es will be there if we get the invite.

Pyro

Reconstruction in Western Canada has been slower than was in the former occupied states, despite the fact our economy is recovering at the same pace. (To this day people are still wondering why more money was put into upgrading Lethbridge's airport than repairing Calgary and Edmonton International). So there are few people who think Alberta and B.C. would rather deal with Washington than they would Ottawa. I'd also chalk up to the fact that we Westerners feel a certain kinship with the United States. I remember how there was I went on "billet exchange" in Scouts when I was thirteen, some scouts from Colorado came up to Alberta for a Jamboree one weekend, and we went south around two months later. Had the time of my life, if I remember right.

As for the Lethbridge International Airshow, they're holding it on the second weekend of August. I sent them a message about a month back, and they're quite interested in inviting the two of you (and anyone else who's willing) over.

Matt Wiser

As soon as we get the formal invite, we're going. And we'll have plenty of patches, some 366th and 419th T-Shirts, caps, etc. And a DVD player showing wartime and current gun-camera footage. Nothing like seeing a Beagle flown by "weekend warriors" embarassing some hotshot F-16 driver from the other side of the ramp.....Actually, there'll be four Beagles: Lisa's (flown by her pilot-she's a WSO-the only one currently a Wing CO), her wingie's, mine, and Major Kelly Ann Ray's.

Hey Mann: The crew from Dogfights will be at Mountain Home next week. Seems they want some F-4 stories, and they'll get quite a few. And they weren't just interested in air-to-air, either. They want some air-to-ground as well. Kara Sackhoff is one of those who'll be interviewed, along with Lisa and me. There's a half-dozen of us with stories for the show.

What was that sicko Khovshtov doing during PRAIRE FIRE and LONG RIFLE? Was he busy purging the Army of "The defeatist mood", or was he still trying to "pacify" Texas? That slime-licker probably did more to fuel the insurgents than any other ComBloc officer.

Panzerfaust 150

Sorry, classes got busy..

No, we really didn't have that much in the way of incidents with civilians before or after the incident I mentioned. Yeah, there was a lot of escaped EPWs who got hung, or worse. I remember hearing a story, don't know if it's true...about a serial killer who found victims amongst escaped EPWs and downed Combloc pilots. I don't remember a name, but sadly, he kept right on killing once the war ended, and the Texas Rangers finally caught up with him about 3-4 years ago. It all came out at his trial.

As for what Khvostov was doing? Hard to say, as I said, he was nabbed not long after the Brownsville surrender, I can't say where, but you can safely assume it wasn't Brownsville. We had a real hell of a time reconstructing his movements post-Houston when we grabbed his offices and a good chunk of his staff. I really didn't get involved with him till after the war, so I honestly could not say where he was at all, as any attempts to ask him anything usually ended up in a rant about "making the whole world sing" again by that point, I think he went steadily mad the closer he got to his trial.

trekchu

Well, we did once liberate some sort of labour camp ( not the usual ones, bad as they were.... ) where they had been doing... god knows what with them. Anyway, we had the guards under lock and key, with some grunts guarding them until our MPs arrived. The townspeople knocked our guards on the head and hosed the EPWs. Never found out what they did at that camp...

RalofTyr

So when I heard the Soviets were coming, I high tailed it out of Peoria and to my mountain cabin. My cabin has a nice few of Peoria and the river valley. Luckily for me, the front like is about 10 miles the river Yuma. With a good telescope I can check out the front lines. Not much action. I'll hear and see some explosions, the flashes especially at night. I've yet to see a dead body. All I see, even with my telescope, is a burning vehicle, usually one of theirs. Then I see red cross trucks; ours, heading towards the mountains. Their's, heading towards Peoria.

I went to Norraton, in the mountains to get supplies once. A soldier told me a Cuban unit occupied Peoria and they are the worst soldiers he's seen. He said drunk National Guardsmen would fight better. Every time they clash, we win. The only reason they don't advance is because they were ordered to hold the line.

Another trip to Norraton, I saw why. They had all these new tanks, M1 Abrams they called them. They said they got better armor than the only Pattons.

So, a few days later, I was back in my cabin when I see all these tanks lined up on our side. They didn't look like the old Pattons, but like the new Abrams. I guess they were getting into position.

So at around before dawn. I can't tell what time it was because there's no electricity for my clock. I was awoken by massive amounts of explosions. I could see the a section of the Yuma River was being attacked. I could even hear jets dropping bombs on the Cubans. So, I to put the coffee on the fire and get my telescope. As I was just about to remove the lens, the whole sky let up brighter than any dawn. I hit the deck. A few moments later, a blast of wind hit my cabin. The cabin shock and the windows were blown out. I got up to look after the light went away. I couldn't see anything down on the River, except smoke, dust and a massive mushroom cloud forming.

I couldn't hear the explosions anymore. My hears were ringing. About an hour after, there was still a lot of dust and a lot of fires. So much it was filling the area was smoke and soon, I wouldn't be able to see from my telescope. I did see tanks coming out of the dust about 6 miles away. There were Soviet Tanks. I grabbed most of what I could, my camping gear, food, my rifle etc. and get in my truck and headed to Norraton as fast as I could.

I was stopped by the military on the main highway to Norraton. Both lines, left and right, had tanks and trucks heading towards the valley floor. I was only allowed to travel to Norraton an hour later after the convoy passed and I was joined by many trucks with wounded heading towards Norraton.

Well, I got to Norraton, which is all fine. My truck is almost out of gas and there's no gas here. It's all being used by the military. So, I guess that's the end of the line for me. I guess worst case, I can go live in the mountains and be an Indian. Afterall, I'm half and I still look the part. I suppose the Soviets won't have much to fear from a 61 year old Indian.

Matt Wiser

How many times did someone try to kill that slime-licker? His own superior wanted him dead, the NASA refugees in Alabama, when they found out, felt the same way (word has it that some of the astronauts offered to put up a reward for Khovstov's capture-dead or alive, but preferably dead), and the guerillas in Texas were only too happy to take shots at him-too bad they missed... At least the...creature defended himself right into the noose at his trial. Talk about a jammed O-Club watching that one.

Panzerfaust, did you ever run into the Rag-Tag Circus? The guys and gals in the 83rd ID who had more captured ComBloc vehicles and gear than our own stuff? They were what, 250% of authorized vehicle strength, and all of the excess was, shall we say, "acquired" on the battlefield. They even did a few Trojan Horse tricks on occasion. (Having a few GIs who were of Russian descent and spoke fluent Russian helped..) Another division that's been retained in the postwar Army's force structure: they are based along the Arizona-Sonora border.

The FAA is pleased so far with the F-4: the new inspector is much more understanding, and some of the restrictions the previous one imposed got loosened. About the only one I still have a problem with is no radar use in urban areas. It's not the big jets I'm worried about: it's the private pilots in their Cessnas or Beechcrafts that the radar could come in handy in tracking.

Matt Wiser

Hey Mann: remember Steve Ritchie, the only AF ace in Southeast Asia? He came back on active duty within a month of the invasion, and he added to his score. He had 5 in SEA, and added 17 more during the first two years of the war. Then the AF decided he'd be doing better teaching new guys and gals. Btw, he was Kara Sackhoff's combat flight instructor. Retired a Maj. Gen. and in charge of Nellis AFB and the huge range complex. I told the Dogfights people about you: expect a phone call from 'em shortly. They are doing at least three episodes about air combat during the war.
But one more episode will be about the air-to-ground stuff (A-7s, A-10s, A-6s, F-111s, etc.)

While Bob Ballard's waiting out Hurricane Season, he was on CNN today: he went into detail on the Forrestal wreck, and on two others: one was an escort, the cruiser Wainwright, the other was the attacking sub. The sub was an Oscar-I, hull number unknown. The reactor compartment is intact, but the torpedo room isn't; she took a torpedo right aft of the sonar dome, and apparently set off some of the weapons inside the torpedo room. Ballard thinks one of the 688-class subs escorting the carrier group got the kill, as the Mark-46 that ASW aircraft, helos, and shipboard torpedo tubes couldn't have done the damage, but a Mark-48 from a sub certainly could.

From page 57

TheMann

This is me posting from an Officer's Quarters at RAF Fairford. Nice place, this is. The flight over went fine, though I had to wait for a tanker near Iceland. The SAC guys messed up and thought it was a slower-cruising plane, and I was supercruising to make up time since I got away late. Two other F-22s from my squadron came across, too. The AF boys also got word to the Brits that I am in line to get a star on my shoulder. I can see how good the treatment is.

Trekchu - sorry mate, the RAF decided they need at least a few dedicated interceptors. Britain's Ministry of Defense has announced they are ordering 44 F-22s for two interceptor squadrons.

I got told that I am gonna get my star, and I'm going to take command of the 354th TFW, which has a squadron of F-22A, two squadrons of F-16C, one squadron of F-111F and two A-10Cs, based in North Carolina. I'm gonna be so happy when I get the wing, thought I must admit its going back to what I did twenty years ago, and I'm not the best paperwork person. But then again, even the most gung-ho officers end up spending a fair bit of time commanding desks. It is what it is, but to me, being a general has been my goal for fifteen years, and now I'm there. I'm on cloud nine right now, and I haven't needed the Raptor to get there. [​IMG]

I'll bet Iron Ass would like to have BUFFs flying from his base, but I doubt he cares, honestly. I wouldn't. If I ever have a base named after me, I don't care if they are flying helicopters from it. It's an AF base named after a guy who deserves far more than that. The Navy ought to name a ship after him, and a good one

Matt Wiser

Hope you're having a good time over there. Lisa and I are headed up to that Canadian show next weekend. Four F-15Es-two from Mountain Home, two from Hill. At least the Brits are making Lockheed very happy: 44 Raptors for the initial order...any options for more if the Eurofighter runs into trouble?

I talked to Col. Cindy Moreau tonight: she thanked me for the heads-up on the reporter. SAC has been calling or otherwise informing those who flew the Siberian Express missions that the BDA and other info on the strikes may be declassified, but until the FOIA case is resolved, those missions that are still classified, well, don't talk about them. One of those strikes is that Moscow one, flown after the Raven Rock business. Remember that the target and the ordnance used are still classified, even after all this time. Panzerfaust, is this snoop digging for the Moscow area mission?

Never flew in Brownsville, but that was a target-rich environment. Guys I went to the Air War College, served with at TAC HQ or in the 347th TFW at Moody (after "flying a desk" at TAC HQ), or at Mountain Home, say that you always came back with empty bomb racks and expended ammo. Always. We were going down into Mexico-twice a day. At least it wasn't the old 7-8 strikes a day at D/FW, San Antonio, or Laredo. And when Brownsville did fall, we had a day to celebrate, then went up to Fairchild. The ground crews took a week for the drive, but we didn't fly until the day they got there. Not only were both Fairchild AFB and Spokane IAP packed, but fall was definitely in the air up in Washington State. Actually putting on layer upon layer of cold-weather gear-first time in the whole war we'd done that as a squadron. (of course, I'd done some on the E&E...picking up ComBloc gear out of a supply truck the guerillas had ambushed) But like I said earlier, we'd barely gotten our theater orientation, and flown a few easy missions before Ivan threw in the towel in the Northern Theater. Lotta celebratin' that day, into the night, and the next morning.

Matt Wiser

How's the RIAT going, Mann? I gather the Fairford O-Club is as lively as it was prewar? Lisa's DO for Maintenance used to be stationed there before the war, and he says things could get lively, especially on Friday and Saturday nights. Mountain Home's base commander is another old-timer (he's a one-star) and frequented Fairford when he flew B-52s from the late '70s up until the balloon went up. He would kill to get in the cockpit of one of the new Juliet models-glass cockpits, new engines, etc, and have some stick time.

I got a letter from a World War III veterans' association in the Russian Republic today; seems they're interested in finding out on some Soviet Air Force MIAs who went down in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah. They have chapters in Russia and most of the former Soviet Republics (Ukraine, Beylorussia, the Baltic States, and the Caucausus region, along with some of the 'Stans", and it seems they want to start by finding crash sites. I imagine some of the books that deal with the air war have found their way over there, and my name's mentioned in a few of 'em. Don't be surprised if other vets get such letters asking for info on battles, grave locations, or wrecked vehicles (lots of times, nobody bothered to check a burned-out tank or BMP to see if there were remains inside).

Kara Sackhoff showed me some things she's been keeping all these years. One of them was a mission proposal that she never presented because she thought I'd reject it out of hand. It was for a squadron strike on Benito Juraez IAP in Mexico City. She proposed a detour: hitting the tankers west of the Big Bend National Park (but still across the border, going in at medium level through gaps in the air-defense radar coverage, then going in low (350-550 ft AGL) once within range of the target, and a single pass to drop, with egress also at low level, going to medium once clear of Mexico City, and meeting up with the tankers. Her proposal had eight birds for MiGCAP, eight with Rockeye CBUs for flak suppression, and eight with a dozen Mark-82 500-pounders or M-117 750-pounders. Kara's right: I would've rejected it. It was too thin on fuel for the return trip, and the tankers would've had to go further south. Even if I had gone along, General Tanner would've rejected it. Even though we were his "Kids", even he had his limits on what we could do operationally.

DD951

Hmm, this brings back some old memories. I had just gotten an invitation to the keel-laying ceremony for the new cruiser Puget Sound, the one that was sent out to all the veterans of the Battle of Seattle , and thought it'd be a good opportunity to arrange a crew reunion, and came across this in the process.

Anyways, I'd better start at the beginning. When things hit the fan in '85, I was just about to start my senior year at the University of Washington, and as an NROTC cadet, got called to active duty. All of us NROTC juniors and seniors got commissioned as ensigns, while the sophomores became petty officers, and the whole lot of us were sent to Bremerton to help man the ships being recommissioned from mothballs. I was one of a half-dozen newly minted ensigns sent to the Turner Joy, and I spent the entire war aboard her.

It was pretty hectic trying to get her back into service with everything that was going on, and having to struggle with her worn engines, but we finally got the ship working and completed her shakedown cruise about a week before the Soviets tried that little amphibious stunt. We hadn't really had the time to properly drill the crew, but we did have some incredible chiefs and Captain Richardson was truly inspired- they're the ones who made the pounding we gave the Soviets that day possible. I didn't get to see the fireworks- I was stationed in CIC and was too busy with the displays to look outside.

Afterwards, when we went back to Bremerton for new gun barrels, we got some upgrades- somehow the people at the yard figured out how to cram a Sea Sparrow launcher on the fantail and some Harpoon launchers amidships, plus some more modern sonar and electronics gear. It was a strange jury-rigged lash-up, but surprisingly, it worked, more or less. The next year or so was spent up in the San Juans, supporting operations around Vancouver and the BC/WA border, bombarding Soviet positions, playing tag with fast gun, torpedo, and missile boats, interdicting supply runs and Spetznaz infiltrators (the Soviets often used commandeered fishing boats and small craft for those purposes- had to destroy a couple very nice vintage Chris-Craft cabin cruisers being used to infiltrate Spetznaz teams, a bit of a shame, really), and even picked off a couple Soviet subs (a Whiskey and a Foxtrot). Besides the subs, ended up taking out a couple dozen assorted surface craft, a half-dozen helicopters, and a really dumb Fishbed driver.

Once the Soviets had been driven back, we spent most of the war on escort duty, mostly the Australia convoys, but did make a couple Alaska runs, and we were damn lucky to survive those. We were also part of the screen for the Petropavlosk raid and the Battle of Kamchatka, mostly because losses among more modern units was so bad. In those operations, we added a couple more subs (a November and a second Foxtrot), a Bear-F, a Grisha, and a stray AGI to our tally. As things came to an end, we were assigned to shore bombardment for the recapture of Guam, and nearly shot out the gun barrels a second time blasting away at the North Koreans.

After the liberation of Guam, we were sent to Manila for a port call then represent the US at the surrender of the Vietnamese garrison that had occupied the Spratlys, and ended up having to rescue a passenger ferry repatriating western civilian detainees from a couple Vietnamese PT boats manned by some sort of fanatic die-hards, which we took out. Turns out that one of those PT boats had mixed it up with the Turner Joy and the Maddox back in 1964, something that amused the crew to no end. Finally, we returned home and decommissioned early in 1991.

By that time, I was a senior lieutenant and the combat systems officer, and in line to be promoted to being the the XO in a couple months, but I elected to be released from active duty and get on with my life, although I maintained a reserve commission. The Turner Joy, after the missiles had been removed, was turned into a memorial next to the ferry dock in Bremerton.

TheMann

RIAT is a blast, so far. Fairford's O-Club is crazy, and boy the Brits are bloody good hosts. The beer is excellent (British beer, when cold, usually is), there are reat stories from just about everybody in the club (90% of them are WWIII veterans) and I get to check out some of the stuff that other countries brought. The Brits have a updated Avro Vulcan with new RR engines, a new attack chopper and of course the EF-2000 Eurofighter (which looks promising, I must say, though it ain't a stealth fighter like the Raptor is), which I got into a mock dogfight with on the way in. They are good, boy.

As for the show itself, the facility is great, it's well organized and the crowd is MASSIVE. There are more then 600 aircraft here, and the US contingent is pretty big. A B-52J from Barksfield is here, as is the Blue Angels. The RAF's aerobatic team was on yesterday, and they are really, really good. I did a show for the crowd yesterday, which was great fun. This was the first time some of the ex-USSR eastern bloc guys came to play, and they were quite eager to let bygones be bygones. One offered to do a mock dogfight for the crowd. He's got a Sukhoi Su-30, an updated Flanker. I don't think we'll have time, but I told him that the last time I had seen a Flanker, it was trying to kill me and a pair of RAF Tornados had shot it down.

That B-52J is really neat inside, all glass cockpit, and it has serious modifications to the engines, too - longer nacelles for extra stages, and apparently it gives it something like 25% extra thrust, and it has big new wing edges too. Apparently, the thing flies just as fast, but is able to carry up 135,000lbs of ordinance. :eek:

The F-111H is even neater - it's a carrier-designed bomber, which apparently is gonna be deployed a long-arm for the fleet. I pointed out to its commanding officer that the F-111B was a debacle that worked badly, and his repsonse was that its meant as a strike fighter. They have Tomcats for interceptions, they say. The newest A-6F is neat, too. It seems like the navy boys are improving what they've already got rather than go stealth like the AF has, though I imagine that'll change. Though the F-111 guys were asking me whether I figured an F-22 could get thrown off a carrier alright, if that's any food for thought.

To DD951 - one of the boys from Turner Joy, huh? You guys were the heroes in Seattle, you guys and the guys on USS Chicago. Didn't the Turner Joy get a Presidential Unit Commendation for that? That also reminds me of one of the wildest stunts we had to pull when I was back in Florida in the F-4s.

The Soviet Convoys were getting their asses kicked trying to Havana (Lexington, Oriskany and the battleships had much to do with that, as well as us), so somebody finally had the idea to sail 'em well off the coast, out of range. One got through one day, and we got a intercept call on a convoy, but we got out there and we couldn't see any friendlies, which scared us half to death. We still blasted that convoy - somebody put a Mk-84 into an ammo ship, big kaboom - but we had no idea who had sent us the call. I didn't find out until later that it was USS Triton (SSN-586) which had called in the strike. The Russians didn't have any SSNs in the area, so Triton went out hunting, and found a convoy. She dropped a Krivak, but couldn't handle the convoy herself. So they called us in. I had figured that Triton had been scrapped by then, but apparently she hadn't.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: I got a letter from a World War III veterans' association in the Russian Republic today; seems they're interested in finding out on some Soviet Air Force MIAs who went down in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah. They have chapters in Russia and most of the former Soviet Republics (Ukraine, Beylorussia, the Baltic States, and the Caucausus region, along with some of the 'Stans", and it seems they want to start by finding crash sites. I imagine some of the books that deal with the air war have found their way over there, and my name's mentioned in a few of 'em. Don't be surprised if other vets get such letters asking for info on battles, grave locations, or wrecked vehicles (lots of times, nobody bothered to check a burned-out tank or BMP to see if there were remains inside).

I've gotten a couple letters, too. One is from a 24 year old Ukrainian girl, Sascha Yelchenko, whose father was a Soviet Air Force officer, a Flanker driver, who wondered if I had any idea what happened to her father. He left for war before she was born, and never came home. She was real polite about it, too. I did look into it, but the records are a mess, and all she could give me was the squadron. The last records one of the AF's researchers found was a letter that posted his squadron to Dyess AFB in Abilene, and that was in August '87. I'd like to write this young woman back to tell her more, but right now, I can't. If anybody can find a few records on that front, I'd really appreciate it.

Matt Wiser said: Kara Sackhoff showed me some things she's been keeping all these years. One of them was a mission proposal that she never presented because she thought I'd reject it out of hand. It was for a squadron strike on Benito Juraez IAP in Mexico City. She proposed a detour: hitting the tankers west of the Big Bend National Park (but still across the border, going in at medium level through gaps in the air-defense radar coverage, then going in low (350-550 ft AGL) once within range of the target, and a single pass to drop, with egress also at low level, going to medium once clear of Mexico City, and meeting up with the tankers. Her proposal had eight birds for MiGCAP, eight with Rockeye CBUs for flak suppression, and eight with a dozen Mark-82 500-pounders or M-117 750-pounders. Kara's right: I would've rejected it. It was too thin on fuel for the return trip, and the tankers would've had to go further south. Even if I had gone along, General Tanner would've rejected it. Even though we were his "Kids", even he had his limits on what we could do operationally.

Yeah, I'd have vetoed that one, too, because I wouldn't want to risk the tankers and the fuel limits. If it was an F-111 unit I'd consider it, though. I'd have loved to make a Mexico City delivery, but the Bones did enough damage there, and I figure that our services were needed closer to home. I'm not gonna take risks like that. I rejected a few runs on Havana by my F-111 crews when I was commanding the 474th, because I figured they'd get shot down - Havana surely would have MiGs coming out the ass, and I needed the Varks closer to home.

Panzerfaust 150

TheMann said: I've gotten a couple letters, too. One is from a 24 year old Ukrainian girl, Sascha Yelchenko, whose father was a Soviet Air Force officer, a Flanker driver, who wondered if I had any idea what happened to her father. He left for war before she was born, and never came home. She was real polite about it, too. I did look into it, but the records are a mess, and all she could give me was the squadron. The last records one of the AF's researchers found was a letter that posted his squadron to Dyess AFB in Abilene, and that was in August '87. I'd like to write this young woman back to tell her more, but right now, I can't. If anybody can find a few records on that front, I'd really appreciate it.

Mann, send me this guy's info..We have the captured records here...and I'm going to that symposium next month, so I think I can ask the Russians if they know anything. Does she know the markings of her father's a/c? Somebody at AFHC can go through the pictoral records and see if anything matches? There are quite a few unidentified combloc a/c bodies that are in the cemeteries...I know the National Cemetery Admin took tissue samples from all the bodies they could...and DNA's ID'd more than a few. I can get her contact info for them too.

TheMann

Panzerfaust 150 said: Mann, send me this guy's info..We have the captured records here...and I'm going to that symposium next month, so I think I can ask the Russians if they know anything. Does she know the markings of her father's a/c? Somebody at AFHC can go through the pictoral records and see if anything matches? There are quite a few unidentified combloc a/c bodies that are in the cemeteries...I know the National Cemetery Admin took tissue samples from all the bodies they could...and DNA's ID'd more than a few. I can get her contact info for them too.

I'll send ya the info. She doesn't know the father's a/c markings, I thought about that. She does know the squadron - 374th Guards Air Defense Squadron, originally based near Lviv in Western Ukraine - and that he was a Flanker driver. The name is Major Viktor Yelchenko, but I didn't find anything on him.

Panzerfaust 150

Crap all,
Remember that reporter? I just got word from the folks at AFHC...SAC's not objecting to the FOIA request so long as they can redact certain things. Seems the new commander over there took the opinion of "time to do the dirty laundry". So, come next Monday, a five part series on "SAC and the Third World War" in the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

TheMann said: I'll send ya the info. She doesn't know the father's a/c markings, I thought about that. She does know the squadron - 374th Guards Air Defense Squadron, originally based near Lviv in Western Ukraine - and that he was a Flanker driver. The name is Major Viktor Yelchenko, but I didn't find anything on him.

Ok, I can find that out...and considering I'm on that symposium team going to Russia next month, AFHC will probably expedite my request..Seems DoS wants to have some MIAs ready to hand over before we go.

TheMann

Panzerfaust 150 said: Crap all,
Remember that reporter? I just got word from the folks at AFHC...SAC's not objecting to the FOIA request so long as they can redact certain things. Seems the new commander over there took the opinion of "time to do the dirty laundry". So, come next Monday, a five part series on "SAC and the Third World War" in the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Well, I guess it all had to come out one day. I was never SAC, but it'll probably still look bad for all of us.

sloreck

DD951: Good to see another squid. I was the MAGTF surgeon on the Tarawa for both the Petropavlosk raid & taking Guam back. Thanks to you and the other tin can guys for helping keep us on the topside of the water. I know that after the carriers, the big amphibs like the Tarawa were the #1 target for Sov sub drivers and SNA jocks. Especially going to Petro, the North Pacific is damn cold & we had over 3,000 Marines plus us medical types with the MAGTF on board, not counting ships company. I was doing a hand & microsurgery fellowship when it hit the fan & recalled to active duty - stayed in after the war.

Matt Wiser

Guys, I think I know who was flying around Dyess when this lady's dad went down: the New Mexico ANG's 150th TFG had reequipped from A-7Ds (too many losses) to F-20s from the Taiwan assembly line (with AIM-7 capability, I might add). They flew a lot of MiGSWEEPs during PRAIRIE FIRE, and hardly did any air-to-ground work. I should know: they covered us quite a few times while we went out and did our mud moving. And the New Mexico guys often went hunting for MiGs when they weren't flying escort. They usually had the call sign TACO when in the air. Those guys were all over Eastern New Mexico and West Texas during PRAIRIE FIRE. I'd check the 150th's records to see if they're the shooters. The only others I can think of would be the 49th TFW and their F-15As (they flew out of Davis-Monthan after Holloman was evac'd in the invasion) and they also did a lot over New Mexico and West Texas.

Speaking of letters, I got another one from Russia today, postmarked Veliyki Luki (SE of St. Petersburg). A retired SAF Colonel was asking for info on an Il-20 shootdown over New Mexico in March of '87. There was only one during that time-and that was the one Lisa and I nailed BVR: no visual, radar only, and we never saw the missile impact or the fireball, just the blip going off the scope. His eldest son was the navigator on the aircraft. He holds no grudges, saying that "you were doing your duty to your homeland, just as my son did for ours", but wants to know if the crash was really not survivable: We'll send him copies of the RF-4C pics of the crash site to show him where his son died. The crash site's pretty inaccessable terrain wise. Btw, Panzerfaust, how far is that town from the Russia-USSR Border? I imagine that border's as wild as ours with Mexico: you can't have a week go by without some shooting from the other side, and the Army tosses a bunch of 155-mm in response. And the Mexicans and their leftie friends ask why the U.S. supports what, half a dozen different rebel groups?

First time I've felt comfortable relaying scuttlebutt, but when I was at the Air War College, some of the students who were in SAC mentioned "Bigeye." I didn't know what they were talking about, until I was at HQ TAC. The Bigeye was a binary chemical bomb, and a lot of those meant to be sent to USAFE in Germany wound up going to SAC bases during the war. That bomb disperses VX nerve agent, so if we were dropping this stuff....that explains the secrecy behind a lot of those missions. Though Col. Moreau isn't proud of one that's still classified: it involved a dam. And she hinted that it wasn't just the hydro plant they targeted.

DD951

TheMann said: To DD951 - one of the boys from Turner Joy, huh? You guys were the heroes in Seattle, you guys and the guys on USS Chicago. Didn't the Turner Joy get a Presidential Unit Commendation for that? That also reminds me of one of the wildest stunts we had to pull when I was back in Florida in the F-4s.

The Soviet Convoys were getting their asses kicked trying to Havana (Lexington, Oriskany and the battleships had much to do with that, as well as us), so somebody finally had the idea to sail 'em well off the coast, out of range. One got through one day, and we got a intercept call on a convoy, but we got out there and we couldn't see any friendlies, which scared us half to death. We still blasted that convoy - somebody put a Mk-84 into an ammo ship, big kaboom - but we had no idea who had sent us the call. I didn't find out until later that it was USS Triton (SSN-586) which had called in the strike. The Russians didn't have any SSNs in the area, so Triton went out hunting, and found a convoy. She dropped a Krivak, but couldn't handle the convoy herself. So they called us in. I had figured that Triton had been scrapped by then, but apparently she hadn't.

Yeah, we got a PUC for Seattle. Any sailor wearing a Turner Joy ball-cap or patch couldn't buy their own drinks in any bar in town for a couple years after that, although there were a few incidents where sailors from other ships would try wearing them to get free booze, and guys from the crew, would, ah, object strongly, but the SP & Seattle Police often turned a blind eye if no one got hurt, and there wasn't any property damage.

Surprised that they were even able to get the Triton back in service- she'd been decommissioned in 1969 because she was too big, un-manuverable, and noisy to be useful as an attack or special projects boat, let alone survive contact with Soviet ASW forces

DD951

sloreck said: DD951: Good to see another squid. I was the MAGTF surgeon on the Tarawa for both the Petropavlosk raid & taking Guam back. Thanks to you and the other tin can guys for helping keep us on the topside of the water. I know that after the carriers, the big amphibs like the Tarawa were the #1 target for Sov sub drivers and SNA jocks. Especially going to Petro, the North Pacific is damn cold & we had over 3,000 Marines plus us medical types with the MAGTF on board, not counting ships company. I was doing a hand & microsurgery fellowship when it hit the fan & recalled to active duty - stayed in after the war.

You're welcome-we were just doing our job. Petropavlosk got pretty exciting- ended up playing with a November with a damn good skipper, who had just taken out the Hayler. Suprised we won that one, with our near-obsolete sonar equipment, supplemented by a helo's dipping sonar used as an extemporized towed array, and only some Mk. 32 tubes firing Mk. 46s and some old hedgehog launchers someone found in a warehouse for ASW weapons, but good thing we did, because otherwise, it would have had a straight shot at the 'phibs. Fortunately, the Soviets didnt think we were worth any ASMs, because our AAW & EW capability sucked.

Matt Wiser

Hey 951, did you hear while you were in CIC during that Seattle amphib business the call signs SHOWTIME and MUSTANG? If you did, those were the last eight F-105Ds in service anywhere. They were my current outfit, the 419th TFW at Hill AFB in Utah. They were in Seattle (McChord AFB to be exact) to transition to F-4Es that came via the Mitsubushi production line in Japan. Their transition was...slightly delayed. If you want some gun-camera that the Thuds shot during their runs, let me know at Hill (I'm Wing CO of 419-we're AFRES, btw) and I can get you a DVD with all their Seattle film on it. If you're still in the reserves, get a hold of us thru channels and I can send ya the DVD. A shame about shooting up those commandeered yachts....but the Thuds strafed some as well with 20-mm that day, so I guess we can't complain too much. A couple of those Thud drivers still live near SLC, and one has a ranch just across the Idaho-UT state line, so if you want to share stories, let the Wing Historian know. I know the guy pretty well: he's a grad student at Utah State when he's not in the Wing Office.

Panzerfaust 150

Veliyki Luki (SE of St. Petersburg), that's about 70-80 klicks west of the border...the border, as it stands now, runs from Archangelesk in the North, down to Tula (it's a no man's land right now) to Volgagrad in the South. The Ukraine holds everything it had traditionally as part of the Ukrainian SSR, though they've had some border shoving matches with the Poles. Belorussia joined the Republic, oh, about three years ago.

Oh. yeah, I heard those rumors too...along with other darker rumors...things I can't mention at all. Wait, I just got an email...it's all the way from SECDEF level...I can talk about it now...as long as I don't mention tactics...which I don't know as much...but Bigeye was used...along with incendiaries on the closed cities, the ones involved in secret projects...and we used cruise missiles..with biological weapons...crop smut. Some bright boy figured out part of the cause of the war was the Soviet Crop failure in 1983...so we loaded up about 30-40 ALCMs with various forms of fungal blight..and fired them into various parts of the Soviet breadbasket...Whole thing was a crash program in cooperation with USDA of all folks...called NIMBLE CAP. That's going to be in the first issue on Monday.

Don't know about the Kazakhs. I'll ask though. As for the border, it's very wild and wooly..but fluid...patrols penetrate on both sides as much as 25-50km in either direction. Artillery duels and occasional airstikes are common. The peace we heard about a month or two back, sadly, was Soviet wishful thinking. The Republic isn't in the mood to make peace with folks who ruined their country, but on the other hand, they can't push the issue...as both sides have nuclear arsenals.

I don't know what else this snoop found out, but I found out his reason in the first place..seems his brother was an EWO on one of the BUFFs in these raids..and he didn't come back. I think he wants answers.