lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2023 13:39:33 GMT
Having ask this question in the Danish AH by historians!!! i think i can open up a new thread, first the question i asked. Cheers Chief - I'm already planning a TL.. damn.  Now i wonder, i know Denmark would still have lost, but what if they fought harder and longer in 1940. - Denmark would be under full occupation from day 1. - we would have a Danish free forces operating in the United Kingdom. Now to expand, if the German invasion of Denmark (1940) lasted longer than 6 hours and the Germans responded by bombing Copenhagen, just to show they could, like OTL later on Rotterdam in May 1940, it would result in Denmark being fully occupied by the Germans and not the semi-occupation which lasted until OTL August 29th 1943, when Germany placed Denmark under direct military occupation. Could the some Danish ships flee to the United Kingdom and also some units, like escaping to Sweden and then traveling to the United Kingdom instead of staying in Sweden. Would we see a Danish-British force being used as garrison in Iceland. Could we see among others see Operation Carthage happening with Free Danish fighter aircraft together with the RAF. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Nov 24, 2023 15:04:41 GMT
Having ask this question in the Danish AH by historians!!! i think i can open up a new thread, first the question i asked. Now i wonder, i know Denmark would still have lost, but what if they fought harder and longer in 1940. - Denmark would be under full occupation from day 1. - we would have a Danish free forces operating in the United Kingdom. Now to expand, if the German invasion of Denmark (1940) lasted longer than 6 hours and the Germans responded by bombing Copenhagen, just to show they could, like OTL later on Rotterdam in May 1940, it would result in Denmark being fully occupied by the Germans and not the semi-occupation which lasted until OTL August 29th 1943, when Germany placed Denmark under direct military occupation. Could the some Danish ships flee to the United Kingdom and also some units, like escaping to Sweden and then traveling to the United Kingdom instead of staying in Sweden. Would we see a Danish-British force being used as garrison in Iceland. Could we see among others see Operation Carthage happening with Free Danish fighter aircraft together with the RAF. Did a TL years ago on this premise. Yes some Danish Navy ships possibly some Torpedoboats on station around North Jutland or on the East Coast - a ship list found here though You have to search each ship.
Other ships may go to Sweden - a few were on station to the south and east of Sjælland.
Bornholm was only occupied on 10 April 1940 as the same ship Hansestadt Danzig that brought the troops to Copenhagen was used for it.
Old Battleship Schleswig-Holstein had grounded south of west Sjælland but Inspectionship Ingolf and a group of Torpedoboats governed the Minebarrage in the south of Great Baelt that the Germans would have to force. Another group of Torpedoboats was in the north of the Great Baelt and Submarines at Samsø.
At least one Company of 5. Regiment went to Sweden being put in charge by the Swedes which had close to no troops in Scania - they were in the North guarding against the W Allies possibly landing at Narvik and trying for Kiruna ironore mines and Finland - of guarding the military Airfield there.
I'd expect more Danish troops trying to go to Sweden and Norway to fight on. Its a short dash across the Øresound but cold at this time. Bornholm is another place because of the late occupation. There was orders of moving the AA-Batteries in South Jutland/Esbjerg late on 8 April 1940 up around Vejle for the defending of the rivervalley there. I chose to assume that one was routed to Aalborg and with the Infantry Battalion at Brønderslev to the north of Aalborg to the Airfield and defend it. That would have wrecked the German timetable on Norway.
I'd expect the Danes to wanting to guard both Faeroe Is. and Iceland themselves though Churchill might well be against it. Greenland is another matter because of US. The Danes and Norwegians would have some trouble internally as the Norwegians wanted to guard all of North Atlantic..
The mainly Norwegian and Danish 132 Fighter Wing soaked up the majority of Danes flying with the RAF. Perhaps a full Danish Squadron could be raised. Might cover during Op. Carthage and at least help build the model and figure out the best approach. Video with footage from aircraft |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2023 15:10:29 GMT
Having ask this question in the Danish AH by historians!!! i think i can open up a new thread, first the question i asked. Now i wonder, i know Denmark would still have lost, but what if they fought harder and longer in 1940. - Denmark would be under full occupation from day 1. - we would have a Danish free forces operating in the United Kingdom. Now to expand, if the German invasion of Denmark (1940) lasted longer than 6 hours and the Germans responded by bombing Copenhagen, just to show they could, like OTL later on Rotterdam in May 1940, it would result in Denmark being fully occupied by the Germans and not the semi-occupation which lasted until OTL August 29th 1943, when Germany placed Denmark under direct military occupation. Could the some Danish ships flee to the United Kingdom and also some units, like escaping to Sweden and then traveling to the United Kingdom instead of staying in Sweden. Would we see a Danish-British force being used as garrison in Iceland. Could we see among others see Operation Carthage happening with Free Danish fighter aircraft together with the RAF. Are you talking about something like OTL Denmark or Denmark as part of a wider Scandinavian state as being discussed in 575's thread? In the former then we're likely to see a government in exile and probably a Danish official presence in Iceland. Not sure how pro-independence Iceland was in 1940 OTL. It could be there was already a significant movement or that the Danish decisions not to fight and then as a result British and then American occupation had a big incentive for this? As such whether Iceland still becomes independent in 1944 as OTL or stays with Denmark longer I don't know. Not seeing a massive amount of difference in the wider WWII simply because Denmark can't put up much opposition so the big issue is what elements of the Danish government and military manage to escape and play a role in the rest of the war. If Denmark is part of a wider Scandinavian state then your likely to see WWII butterflied as I said elsewhere. However if somehow things still stay largely the same then you might have a militarily more powerful Denmark and more importantly Sweden and Norway are part of the same state so are immediately in the conflict. This may or may not have a big impact on the different Norway that will be here but with Swedish belligerence from the start the northern war is vastly different. Germany would have to commit markedly larger forces to the northern campaigns which could delay the invasion of the low countries and France. Plus of course they would immediately lose access to Swedish iron ore supplies. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Nov 24, 2023 15:14:17 GMT
My first post was made with the assumption of Denmark being on itw own not part of a Scandinavian Union. As posted in the other thread I am not even there in my internal brainstorm yet!  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2023 15:16:51 GMT
Having ask this question in the Danish AH by historians!!! i think i can open up a new thread, first the question i asked. Now to expand, if the German invasion of Denmark (1940) lasted longer than 6 hours and the Germans responded by bombing Copenhagen, just to show they could, like OTL later on Rotterdam in May 1940, it would result in Denmark being fully occupied by the Germans and not the semi-occupation which lasted until OTL August 29th 1943, when Germany placed Denmark under direct military occupation. Could the some Danish ships flee to the United Kingdom and also some units, like escaping to Sweden and then traveling to the United Kingdom instead of staying in Sweden. Would we see a Danish-British force being used as garrison in Iceland. Could we see among others see Operation Carthage happening with Free Danish fighter aircraft together with the RAF. Did a TL years ago on this premise. Yes some Danish Navy ships possibly some Torpedoboats on station around North Jutland or on the East Coast - a ship list found here though You have to search each ship. Other ships may go to Sweden - a few were on station to the south and east of Sjælland. Bornholm was only occupied on 10 April 1940 as the same ship Hansestadt Danzig that brought the troops to Copenhagen was used for it. Old Battleship Schleswig-Holstein had grounded south of west Sjælland but Inspectionship Ingolf and a group of Torpedoboats governed the Minebarrage in the south of Great Baelt that the Germans would have to force. Another group of Torpedoboats was in the north of the Great Baelt and Submarines at Samsø. At least one Company of 5. Regiment went to Sweden being put in charge by the Swedes which had close to no troops in Scania - they were in the North guarding against the W Allies possibly landing at Narvik and trying for Kiruna ironore mines and Finland - of guarding the military Airfield there. I'd expect more Danish troops trying to go to Sweden and Norway to fight on. Its a short dash across the Øresound but cold at this time. Bornholm is another place because of the late occupation. There was orders of moving the AA-Batteries in South Jutland/Esbjerg late on 8 April 1940 up around Vejle for the defending of the rivervalley there. I chose to assume that one was routed to Aalborg and with the Infantry Battalion at Brønderslev to the north of Aalborg to the Airfield and defend it. That would have wrecked the German timetable on Norway. I'd expect the Danes to wanting to guard both Faeroe Is. and Iceland themselves though Churchill might well be against it. Greenland is another matter because of US. The Danes and Norwegians would have some trouble internally as the Norwegians wanted to guard all of North Atlantic.. The mainly Norwegian and Danish 132 Fighter Wing soaked up the majority of Danes flying with the RAF. Perhaps a full Danish Squadron could be raised. Might cover during Op. Carthage and at least help build the model and figure out the best approach. Video with footage from aircraft Thanks for the responds 575. Interesting points here, would we still see the Danish Brigade in Sweden ore would Sweden allow them to move to the United Kingdom where they could form a Danish Brigade in the United Kingdom and like their Dutch and Belgium counterparts fight from the beaches of Normandy to the liberation of Denmark. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Nov 24, 2023 15:56:59 GMT
Did a TL years ago on this premise. Yes some Danish Navy ships possibly some Torpedoboats on station around North Jutland or on the East Coast - a ship list found here though You have to search each ship. Other ships may go to Sweden - a few were on station to the south and east of Sjælland. Bornholm was only occupied on 10 April 1940 as the same ship Hansestadt Danzig that brought the troops to Copenhagen was used for it. Old Battleship Schleswig-Holstein had grounded south of west Sjælland but Inspectionship Ingolf and a group of Torpedoboats governed the Minebarrage in the south of Great Baelt that the Germans would have to force. Another group of Torpedoboats was in the north of the Great Baelt and Submarines at Samsø. At least one Company of 5. Regiment went to Sweden being put in charge by the Swedes which had close to no troops in Scania - they were in the North guarding against the W Allies possibly landing at Narvik and trying for Kiruna ironore mines and Finland - of guarding the military Airfield there. I'd expect more Danish troops trying to go to Sweden and Norway to fight on. Its a short dash across the Øresound but cold at this time. Bornholm is another place because of the late occupation. There was orders of moving the AA-Batteries in South Jutland/Esbjerg late on 8 April 1940 up around Vejle for the defending of the rivervalley there. I chose to assume that one was routed to Aalborg and with the Infantry Battalion at Brønderslev to the north of Aalborg to the Airfield and defend it. That would have wrecked the German timetable on Norway. I'd expect the Danes to wanting to guard both Faeroe Is. and Iceland themselves though Churchill might well be against it. Greenland is another matter because of US. The Danes and Norwegians would have some trouble internally as the Norwegians wanted to guard all of North Atlantic.. The mainly Norwegian and Danish 132 Fighter Wing soaked up the majority of Danes flying with the RAF. Perhaps a full Danish Squadron could be raised. Might cover during Op. Carthage and at least help build the model and figure out the best approach. Video with footage from aircraft Thanks for the responds 575 . Interesting points here, would we still see the Danish Brigade in Sweden ore would Sweden allow them to move to the United Kingdom where they could form a Danish Brigade in the United Kingdom and like their Dutch and Belgium counterparts fight from the beaches of Normandy to the liberation of Denmark. I would expect still to see a Danish Brigade in Sweden like the Norwegian Police Brigades. Actually the Danish Brigade was also termed a Police Brigade to shroud the real intend.
One thing I did find was that there as we well know had been a large migration of Danes to the US - and Canada. Regarding the US a lot of the migrants still held Danish citizenship and as such were elegible for being called up for service. I had a call-up made to fit out a Danish Infantry Division in Iceland.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2023 16:02:55 GMT
Thanks for the responds 575 . Interesting points here, would we still see the Danish Brigade in Sweden ore would Sweden allow them to move to the United Kingdom where they could form a Danish Brigade in the United Kingdom and like their Dutch and Belgium counterparts fight from the beaches of Normandy to the liberation of Denmark. I would expect still to see a Danish Brigade in Sweden like the Norwegian Police Brigades. Actually the Danish Brigade was also termed a Police Brigade to shroud the real intend. One thing I did find was that there as we well know had been a large migration of Danes to the US - and Canada. Regarding the US a lot of the migrants still held Danish citizenship and as such were elegible for being called up for service. I had a call-up made to fit out a Danish Infantry Division in Iceland.
So there is enough to fill out a Danish Brigade in the United Kingdom who most likely from 1940 to D-day in 1944 will be used among others for garrison duties in Iceland, Greenland and Faroe Islands. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Nov 24, 2023 16:48:25 GMT
I would expect still to see a Danish Brigade in Sweden like the Norwegian Police Brigades. Actually the Danish Brigade was also termed a Police Brigade to shroud the real intend. One thing I did find was that there as we well know had been a large migration of Danes to the US - and Canada. Regarding the US a lot of the migrants still held Danish citizenship and as such were elegible for being called up for service. I had a call-up made to fit out a Danish Infantry Division in Iceland.
So there is enough to fill out a Danish Brigade in the United Kingdom who most likely from 1940 to D-day in 1944 will be used among others for garrison duties in Iceland, Greenland and Faroe Islands. Indeed - yes. Just remember the British might not be all agreeable to having the Danish solely guard their lands! The Faeroe Is peoples would surely like to get the Danish shackles off. The US would surely like Denmark as sole guardian in Greenland possibly reinforces by US troops around the Kryolite Mine in the South and at Sondre Strom and Narssarssuaq Airfields once determined built. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2023 16:59:48 GMT
So there is enough to fill out a Danish Brigade in the United Kingdom who most likely from 1940 to D-day in 1944 will be used among others for garrison duties in Iceland, Greenland and Faroe Islands. Indeed - yes. Just remember the British might not be all agreeable to having the Danish solely guard their lands! The Faeroe Is peoples would surely like to get the Danish shackles off. The US would surely like Denmark as sole guardian in Greenland possibly reinforces by US troops around the Kryolite Mine in the South and at Sondre Strom and Narssarssuaq Airfields once determined built. Well i do not think the Danish government in exile is going to send the Free Danish army to fight in places like Africa ore Italy, they would lose surly man and i do not know if they can replace them. |
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2023 23:05:48 GMT
My first post was made with the assumption of Denmark being on itw own not part of a Scandinavian Union. As posted in the other thread I am not even there in my internal brainstorm yet!
I know but Lordroel's OP was making reference to the link with the idea of a Scandinavian Union of some sort so I thought it best to get clarification on what he intended.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2023 23:10:55 GMT
So there is enough to fill out a Danish Brigade in the United Kingdom who most likely from 1940 to D-day in 1944 will be used among others for garrison duties in Iceland, Greenland and Faroe Islands. Indeed - yes. Just remember the British might not be all agreeable to having the Danish solely guard their lands! The Faeroe Is peoples would surely like to get the Danish shackles off. The US would surely like Denmark as sole guardian in Greenland possibly reinforces by US troops around the Kryolite Mine in the South and at Sondre Strom and Narssarssuaq Airfields once determined built.
I would agree that britain would want to 'stiffen' any Danish garrison in Iceland or the Faeroe Is in case there was the danger of it surrendering if attacked and also the small Danish forces involved might not be big enough to include things like armoured, AT, AA and supporting Air units necessary to defend those regions on their own. Also they would like to use both as air bases [at least] themselves for the Battle of the Atlantic.
Was there significant discontent about the Danish rule in the Faeroe's? I had assumed otherwise as its still part of Denmark up to the present day.
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575
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Post by 575 on Nov 24, 2023 23:19:07 GMT
Indeed - yes. Just remember the British might not be all agreeable to having the Danish solely guard their lands! The Faeroe Is peoples would surely like to get the Danish shackles off. The US would surely like Denmark as sole guardian in Greenland possibly reinforces by US troops around the Kryolite Mine in the South and at Sondre Strom and Narssarssuaq Airfields once determined built.
I would agree that britain would want to 'stiffen' any Danish garrison in Iceland or the Faeroe Is in case there was the danger of it surrendering if attacked and also the small Danish forces involved might not be big enough to include things like armoured, AT, AA and supporting Air units necessary to defend those regions on their own. Also they would like to use both as air bases [at least] themselves for the Battle of the Atlantic.
Was there significant discontent about the Danish rule in the Faeroe's? I had assumed otherwise as its still part of Denmark up to the present day.
It was more than "want" on the part of Churchills as I've read. He didn't want the Danish officials to remain in Faeroe Is. I don't see that attitude just vanish - sorry. The Faeroe population was generally happy to be rid of Danish rule for the time being. It also allowed them to fly their own flag as they weren't allowed to fly the Dannebrog - they very much want to get rid of us. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 25, 2023 7:14:56 GMT
My first post was made with the assumption of Denmark being on itw own not part of a Scandinavian Union. As posted in the other thread I am not even there in my internal brainstorm yet! I know but Lordroel's OP was making reference to the link with the idea of a Scandinavian Union of some sort so I thought it best to get clarification on what he intended.
My fault, seems i dragged another What If into this thread. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 25, 2023 11:05:27 GMT
Iceland requires a garrison of a division plus at least a wing of aircraft. That being beyond the scope for Denmark to get out in time, it will likely not feature more than a token Danish element.
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Post by stevep on Nov 25, 2023 13:22:44 GMT
I know but Lordroel's OP was making reference to the link with the idea of a Scandinavian Union of some sort so I thought it best to get clarification on what he intended.
My fault, seems i dragged another What If into this thread.
Lordroel
So are you assuming that we have the OTL situation, i.e. no Scandinavian state but that Denmark continues to fight on despite the overwhelming odds? Just the side mention of the Scandinavia union in another thread inspired the idea. If you could clarify please that avoids us going down dead ends.
Steve
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