575
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Post by 575 on Jun 14, 2024 12:40:08 GMT
The Japanese had the sense NOT to keep the US troops and citizens hostage - they had to get the oil flowing but now the clock is ticking. Found this on Japanese oil consumption during WWII.
The reason why I said what I did was because you said. That sounds to me like Japan is insisting on the embargo being lifted as a result which I would consider a hostage type situation.
Hmm - You are quite right. Had some trouble editing from the original post. Will have to rethink what to do. Guess Japan being too demanding here might tip the scales for a US entry in the war.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jun 14, 2024 12:43:49 GMT
The IJN lost three Fleet Aircraft Carriers and had one heavily damaged during the battle of Bungarun Islands the last two suffering light damage which is going to be repaired before new operations.
Read that the oil refineries and production sites had been readied for demolitions prior to Japanese attack OTL so assume this is also the case here.
ITTL there being no Thai-French War the Japanese are going to FIC to get closer to Thailand, Malaya and NEI as well as be able to close down Burma Road.
Thanks for the heads up on the Tiger Class BB - will have a look at those.
The Japanese certainly have to be wary of stepping on US toes!
Ouch that's worse than I thought. They have a number of CVL and merchant ships designed for quick conversion but will have lost a lot of their experienced carrier trained aircrew so they will be very difficult to replace, especially with oil shortages.
The class title was Lion not Tiger and the planned 6 ships, with differing designs in 38,42 and 44. Here you might have seen a delay with redesigns but what sort of I don't know. The 1st two laid down in 1938 were named Lion and Temeraire with Conqueror & Thunderer ordered in autumn 39. Construction was largely cancelled in Oct 39 but work continued on the 16" guns and their turrets but only at a minimal rate.
Depending on how things have gone in this conflict as to with what determination construction has been continued, what redesigns have occurred and whether the British government are still interested in building large new capital ships. I would say with Italy still present along with Japan the answer to the last point is yes and some level work will resume rapidly as soon as the war with Germany ends.
Thanks for the link - will have a look at it.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 14, 2024 13:23:20 GMT
The reason why I said what I did was because you said. That sounds to me like Japan is insisting on the embargo being lifted as a result which I would consider a hostage type situation.
Hmm - You are quite right. Had some trouble editing from the original post. Will have to rethink what to do. Guess Japan being too demanding here might tip the scales for a US entry in the war.
Well it could still take a couple of years unless someone important in Japan sees sense a lot early but that would be a clear game over for Japan. They might after some debate - and probably an hostile US diplomatic reaction - decide to release the prisoners anyway but it would still poison relations further with Washington and then I suspect the released prisoners will have some nasty tales to tell about what their seen and quite possibly suffered. It seems like Japan is on a suicide course.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jun 14, 2024 13:59:41 GMT
As the Italian DOW was presented to the Japanese Minister to Rome the Italian troops and civilians were removed from the internment camp where they had been placed along the US ones.
When these news reached President Roosevelt he decided to play hardball on the Japanse – the US Minister to Tokyo informed the Japanese Government that the US Congress was debating the US – Japanese relations in light of the Shanghai battle and failure by the Japanese to repatriate US citizens and troops would deteriorate relations to being very close to a situation of War. Admiral Yamamoto strongly argued the repatriation of the US troops and citizens as Japan had enough problems already and really didn't need any more active enemies – certainly not one that would off-set the slightly in Japanese favour Naval balance; which was actually as bad as could be.
IJA didn't need to factor in another 3 USN Fleet Carriers and a dozen older Battleships. Having to defeat the US in the Philippines would take time which at the moment was a luxury the Japanese didn't have. War would be possible for a year and then the lack of oil would doom Japan if not the now planned limited offensive against North Borneo could be pulled off successfully and followed up by another on NEI. Should that happen – and Admiral Yamamoto was confident this be the case – the door could be opened to more operations and IJN would then have another Fleet Carrier and 4 more Light Carriers to enter during 1942. The IJA ridiculed the IJA pussies but Yamamoto's asessment would carry much weight and the Army was also worried about Soviet intentions and slow in releasing troops for offensives in the South China Sea area preferring to keep a substantial reserve in Manchuria.
The Japanese Government then informed the US Minister to Tokyo that the US troops and civilians from Shanghai would be repatriated by ship to Hawaii.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 15, 2024 11:41:33 GMT
As the Italian DOW was presented to the Japanese Minister to Rome the Italian troops and civilians were removed from the internment camp where they had been placed along the US ones. When these news reached President Roosevelt he decided to play hardball on the Japanse – the US Minister to Tokyo informed the Japanese Government that the US Congress was debating the US – Japanese relations in light of the Shanghai battle and failure by the Japanese to repatriate US citizens and troops would deteriorate relations to being very close to a situation of War. Admiral Yamamoto strongly argued the repatriation of the US troops and citizens as Japan had enough problems already and really didn't need any more active enemies – certainly not one that would off-set the slightly in Japanese favour Naval balance; which was actually as bad as could be. IJA didn't need to factor in another 3 USN Fleet Carriers and a dozen older Battleships. Having to defeat the US in the Philippines would take time which at the moment was a luxury the Japanese didn't have. War would be possible for a year and then the lack of oil would doom Japan if not the now planned limited offensive against North Borneo could be pulled off successfully and followed up by another on NEI. Should that happen – and Admiral Yamamoto was confident this be the case – the door could be opened to more operations and IJN would then have another Fleet Carrier and 4 more Light Carriers to enter during 1942. The IJA ridiculed the IJA pussies but Yamamoto's asessment would carry much weight and the Army was also worried about Soviet intentions and slow in releasing troops for offensives in the South China Sea area preferring to keep a substantial reserve in Manchuria. The Japanese Government then informed the US Minister to Tokyo that the US troops and civilians from Shanghai would be repatriated by ship to Hawaii.
Well at least their stopped digging that hole. Its just the other 5-6 of them that they keep digging deeper.
Sounds like the Italian prisoners are going to be in for a bad time.
I think Yamamoto is being massively optimistic in his opinion of the chances for the war with the western allies/China, but he is a rare case of rationality in the Japanese leadership.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jun 15, 2024 16:48:56 GMT
As the Italian DOW was presented to the Japanese Minister to Rome the Italian troops and civilians were removed from the internment camp where they had been placed along the US ones. When these news reached President Roosevelt he decided to play hardball on the Japanse – the US Minister to Tokyo informed the Japanese Government that the US Congress was debating the US – Japanese relations in light of the Shanghai battle and failure by the Japanese to repatriate US citizens and troops would deteriorate relations to being very close to a situation of War. Admiral Yamamoto strongly argued the repatriation of the US troops and citizens as Japan had enough problems already and really didn't need any more active enemies – certainly not one that would off-set the slightly in Japanese favour Naval balance; which was actually as bad as could be. IJA didn't need to factor in another 3 USN Fleet Carriers and a dozen older Battleships. Having to defeat the US in the Philippines would take time which at the moment was a luxury the Japanese didn't have. War would be possible for a year and then the lack of oil would doom Japan if not the now planned limited offensive against North Borneo could be pulled off successfully and followed up by another on NEI. Should that happen – and Admiral Yamamoto was confident this be the case – the door could be opened to more operations and IJN would then have another Fleet Carrier and 4 more Light Carriers to enter during 1942. The IJA ridiculed the IJA pussies but Yamamoto's asessment would carry much weight and the Army was also worried about Soviet intentions and slow in releasing troops for offensives in the South China Sea area preferring to keep a substantial reserve in Manchuria. The Japanese Government then informed the US Minister to Tokyo that the US troops and civilians from Shanghai would be repatriated by ship to Hawaii.
Well at least their stopped digging that hole. Its just the other 5-6 of them that they keep digging deeper.
Sounds like the Italian prisoners are going to be in for a bad time.
I think Yamamoto is being massively optimistic in his opinion of the chances for the war with the western allies/China, but he is a rare case of rationality in the Japanese leadership.
Well I wanted to postpone US entry just for change. Yamamoto seemed rational - mostly.
Italians - its 1941 you can't expect popular opinion to influence on politics!
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575
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Post by 575 on Jun 19, 2024 10:54:49 GMT
December 1941 The loss of an Aircraft Carrier and near loss of a second as well as damage to Ark Royal made for RN sending the remaining two Illustrious class Carriers, the fourth improved aircraft carrying wise Indomitable now ready, and the old Glorious off for the Far East to make up for the losses sustained. The damaged ships would be going to India for repairs. The losses were heavier than expected and being the only power – besides the USA – with operational Aircraft Carriers Britain had to shoulder the struggle.
The older Carriers Argus, Hermes, Eagle and Furious was deemed too small for operations so far off and some force had to be kept in European waters until the ordered new larger Carriers would be available though that would still be some years into the future even if Shipyards being available. The Fairey Fulmar had been phased out of service as a Carrier Fighter being replaced with the Grumman F4F-4/Martlet II with folding wings which allowed a few more being operated from Carriers due to their being slightly shorter than the Fulmar. These had also been ferried out to India to replace the fighters of Ark Royal and with a reserve in place.
The French Navy would probably need at least another year for finishing the Joffré which was fitting out. Even the French seemed to not know if they were going to finish the Graf Zeppelin/Alsace though doing so would at least provide another Carrier untill the second Joffré/Painlevé would be finished and Churchill urged the French hurring the completion and fitting out of their building Carriers. The French promised prioritizing the Carrier building and would send a second pair of Battleships to FIC along a convoy carrying another Colonial Infantry Division and an Armoured Brigade to make for a full Armoured Division in place.
With an eye to French Air Operations over FIC RAF was directed to send more units as well as more radar to increase coverage and thus early warning. With the airattack on Singapore and invasion attempt of Brunei/Sarawak the airdefences of these were increased too. As the French had decided to increase their Air elements with Strategic Bombers so did RAF in order to have command of the South China Sea by Air and Naval units. The Japanese Fighter Aircraft had been able to inflict serious losses on the RN aircraft though this was ascribed to the larger numbers of aircraft carried by IJN Carriers. They did though have a very long range as the first wave fighters which had participated in the attack on Singapore had been able to escort the attack wave to Singapore and back and then go searching for the RN Force without refuelling. If they hadn't been able to return to their Carriers they had shown foolhardy aggression in their search for the RN Carriers.
The IJN would have 2 Aircraft Fleet Carriers and one light Carrier operational as well as their first old Carrier still in service though that only operated 15 Aircraft. Not known was the IJN building programme of converted hulls to 2 Fleet Carriers and 5 Light Carriers as well as a Super Carrier.
Intelligence was also worked on in area; the disclosed Air Liaison Officer was apprehended and interrogated while work was ongoing for detecting other such Japanese spies. A few was disclosed in Malaya and British Borneo though no others in British forces. Apparently the Japanese was too adept to inform their spies of other such. This being the case a Double-Cross operation was initiated against the Japanese using the Air Liaison Officer to keep contact with his Japanese operator to feed false information and trying to obtain Japanese information.
The French had suffered high losses too above Tonkin Bay mainly due to the older Fighter aircraft which had also been thrown into the fight that had been easy prey to the IJN fighters. However the low numbers of modern IJN fighters thrown into the battle had made the older French fighters able to pick off Japanese bombers as the Dewoitines fought the IJN fighters. Those IJN fighters had been difficult to get into the sights but once there they took less damage than expected to be downed.
Regarding the Italian forces both the British and the French were adverse to include them in fighting in either FIC or Malaya/North Borneo. Mussolini was informed of this decision and adviced to move his troops into China by the Burma Road as the Tonkin area was a little hot at the moment with occasional Japanese airraids and nightly shore bombardments. The Italians would have to make their own arrangements regarding the Navy component.
Chang Kai-Shek would welcome European allies fighting alongside him and the Italian airunits would be a tremendous boost to the Chinese Airforce. The Italian Naval contingent was somewhat more difficult to handle as nobody really wanted it at least not under Italian command! Even the Dutch were apprehensive of such aid as they feared the Italians would then move all of their troops to NEI instead of China.
While discussions were ongoing Emperor Haile Selassie once again took the seat at LoN appealing to the member states of the organization that Mussolini now had a time to redeem himself in the eyes of the World by pulling out of Ethiopia. Selassie would then return to his throne and send off an Expeditionary Force to the Far East. The French ever eager to pull a leg on the Italians seized the opportunity to agree with Selassie and voted for having all the minor nations in tow. Britain however..
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 19, 2024 16:26:02 GMT
I can't really see Mussolini being willing to give up the largest and most populous colony and given that Italy is being an ally - albeit a somewhat unwelcome one - and also the possible need of Italy as an ally against Stalin I couldn't see such an idea gaining much traction, other than probably in the US. However that country has a lot less influence than OTL and not even sure if its a member of the League of Nations here? Similarly this would set an example for decolonization which I can't see a Britain under Churchill welcoming, which could be why you end the post as you do.
An Italian expeditionary force in China could be interesting for all involved. A lot would depend on its leadership, which could well be weak in an Italian without experience of war to clear out party hacks and peace time political commanders. However it would probably have a significantly lighter logistic chain than British or French forces and if decently lead could cause the Japanese some probably, having better firepower and organization than most KMT armies. However the Japanese are very experienced here and could give the Italians some nasty shocks of the latter aren't very careful. Their probably not going to be large enough and well enough equipped to make a huge difference. However a friendly Italian presence could have a political and diplomatic impact on relations with China in the longer terms. Especially since Italy hasn't have as big an history of throwing its weight about and like the KMT is a fairly right wing government.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jun 19, 2024 19:02:05 GMT
I can't really see Mussolini being willing to give up the largest and most populous colony and given that Italy is being an ally - albeit a somewhat unwelcome one - and also the possible need of Italy as an ally against Stalin I couldn't see such an idea gaining much traction, other than probably in the US. However that country has a lot less influence than OTL and not even sure if its a member of the League of Nations here? Similarly this would set an example for decolonization which I can't see a Britain under Churchill welcoming, which could be why you end the post as you do.
An Italian expeditionary force in China could be interesting for all involved. A lot would depend on its leadership, which could well be weak in an Italian without experience of war to clear out party hacks and peace time political commanders. However it would probably have a significantly lighter logistic chain than British or French forces and if decently lead could cause the Japanese some probably, having better firepower and organization than most KMT armies. However the Japanese are very experienced here and could give the Italians some nasty shocks of the latter aren't very careful. Their probably not going to be large enough and well enough equipped to make a huge difference. However a friendly Italian presence could have a political and diplomatic impact on relations with China in the longer terms. Especially since Italy hasn't have as big an history of throwing its weight about and like the KMT is a fairly right wing government.
What have You done to the Internet? Wanted to search for the date of Italian withdrawal from LoN and only managed to type League of - first proposal "italy leagu of nations wihdrawal" stevep - the almighty! Italy withdrew from LoN 11 December 1937.
Of course Mussolini isn't one to let go - its just going to be a constant nuisance. Right guess on the British reaction.
I'm going to do a little part of post on the Italians in China. Definately not a nice place to be with Japanese trying to kill you. "decently led" - well that'll be part of it! Logistics will play a large part. Though its Air element will be a much wanted addition. It will however be a post or two - haven't the full picture yet - down the line.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 19, 2024 21:47:23 GMT
I can't really see Mussolini being willing to give up the largest and most populous colony and given that Italy is being an ally - albeit a somewhat unwelcome one - and also the possible need of Italy as an ally against Stalin I couldn't see such an idea gaining much traction, other than probably in the US. However that country has a lot less influence than OTL and not even sure if its a member of the League of Nations here? Similarly this would set an example for decolonization which I can't see a Britain under Churchill welcoming, which could be why you end the post as you do.
An Italian expeditionary force in China could be interesting for all involved. A lot would depend on its leadership, which could well be weak in an Italian without experience of war to clear out party hacks and peace time political commanders. However it would probably have a significantly lighter logistic chain than British or French forces and if decently lead could cause the Japanese some probably, having better firepower and organization than most KMT armies. However the Japanese are very experienced here and could give the Italians some nasty shocks of the latter aren't very careful. Their probably not going to be large enough and well enough equipped to make a huge difference. However a friendly Italian presence could have a political and diplomatic impact on relations with China in the longer terms. Especially since Italy hasn't have as big an history of throwing its weight about and like the KMT is a fairly right wing government.
What have You done to the Internet? Wanted to search for the date of Italian withdrawal from LoN and only managed to type League of - first proposal "italy leagu of nations wihdrawal" stevep - the almighty! Italy withdrew from LoN 11 December 1937.
Of course Mussolini isn't one to let go - its just going to be a constant nuisance. Right guess on the British reaction.
I'm going to do a little part of post on the Italians in China. Definately not a nice place to be with Japanese trying to kill you. "decently led" - well that'll be part of it! Logistics will play a large part. Though its Air element will be a much wanted addition. It will however be a post or two - haven't the full picture yet - down the line.
Never underestimate my power - [evil laugh]
I just checked wiki and it says: I didn't think of Italy but expect that was in the aftermath of criticism resulting from their invasion of Ethiopia. Wasn't sure whether the US had ever been a member - knew once upon a time - but they never were.
Be interested to see what you come up with on the IEF [Italian Expeditionary Force]. As you say leadership in facing the experienced and very tough Japanese along with logistics and also probably managing with the shambolic state of China and high level of corruption at the time.
As I did mention I think China would be the best theatre for the allied ground forces in terms of defeating Japan as they can, at least in theory be capable of combining with the larger KMT forces in making the Japanese position in China unviable. Which would force the Japanese back from a position able to threaten the western colonies, regain lost territories such as Hong Kong, and undermine the entire basis of the Japanese government's expansionist aims.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jun 20, 2024 12:55:42 GMT
The RAF had been allowed increasing its presence at Cam Rahn Bay airbase with more long range Short Stirling AEW aircraft operating out of it to try assure the whereabouts of IJN ships and aircraft. Cooperating to this was the RAF in North Borneo flying like aircraft and the Dutch flying their Dornier Do 24 Flying boats out of a temporal station at Bungaran Island. The WAllies were agreed that the importance of FIC shouldn't be overlooked as it would be a blocking area to Japanese operations thus RAF got its way into Cam Rahn Bay airbase.
The French had by now 1 Armoured Division and 7 Infantry Divisions: 2 Colonial, 1 Foreign Legion, 1 Senegalese Tirailleurs and 3 Locally Raised in FIC. Half the Armoured Division and the Colonial Infantry Divisions had combat experience from the War in Europe. The Foreign Legion commanded respect and the Senegalese were well reputed and trained.
French Airforce had also moved in on an ever increasing part of Cam Rahn Bay airbase that was being enlarged to accomodate the various units. French Strategic Bombers were flying sorties from the base meeting up with their Dewoitine fighter escorts north of Hué then crossing the sea to Hainan Island to bomb Japanese airfields and ports or other targets were such reported by Chinese Partisans. Other French Bombers flew from Tonkin into China to attack Japanese targets in Kwangsi and Kwangtung Provinces under fighter escort.
The British had kept 1 Australian Infantry Division in Malaya and another sent to New Guinea. The New Zealand Division was in Borneo along 2 British. 2 Indian Divisions were in Malaya and another Australian Division had been shipped to Dutch Borneo to build a reserve for British Borneo and aid the Dutch in defending their oilfields. One British Division had been shipped to Sumatra to reinforce the sparse Dutch troops there especially to guard the oilfields.
There was also Naval cooperation – the Dutch kept their units mostly in NEI waters though this way they also observed the waters north of NEI south of US Philippines and south of the Japanese Carolina's. The RAN and RNZN operated north of New Guinea and east into the Pacific to patrol south of Japanese Carolina and Marshall Islands. The RN had kept its large Submarines in Singapore and as during the initial IJN attack on Singapore kept aggressive patrolling in the South China Sea to establish the whereabouts and operations of IJN and hit Japanese shipping when possible though this usually only happened along Hainan Island, Taiwan and the Chinese coast.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 20, 2024 18:37:22 GMT
The RAF had been allowed increasing its presence at Cam Rahn Bay airbase with more long range Short Stirling AEW aircraft operating out of it to try assure the whereabouts of IJN ships and aircraft. Cooperating to this was the RAF in North Borneo flying like aircraft and the Dutch flying their Dornier Do 24 Flying boats out of a temporal station at Bungaran Island. The WAllies were agreed that the importance of FIC shouldn't be overlooked as it would be a blocking area to Japanese operations thus RAF got its way into Cam Rahn Bay airbase. The French had by now 1 Armoured Division and 7 Infantry Divisions: 2 Colonial, 1 Foreign Legion, 1 Senegalese Tirailleurs and 3 Locally Raised in FIC. Half the Armoured Division and the Colonial Infantry Divisions had combat experience from the War in Europe. The Foreign Legion commanded respect and the Senegalese were well reputed and trained. French Airforce had also moved in on an ever increasing part of Cam Rahn Bay airbase that was being enlarged to accomodate the various units. French Strategic Bombers were flying sorties from the base meeting up with their Dewoitine fighter escorts north of Hué then crossing the sea to Hainan Island to bomb Japanese airfields and ports or other targets were such reported by Chinese Partisans. Other French Bombers flew from Tonkin into China to attack Japanese targets in Kwangsi and Kwangtung Provinces under fighter escort. The British had kept 1 Australian Infantry Division in Malaya and another sent to New Guinea. The New Zealand Division was in Borneo along 2 British. 2 Indian Divisions were in Malaya and another Australian Division had been shipped to Dutch Borneo to build a reserve for British Borneo and aid the Dutch in defending their oilfields. One British Division had been shipped to Sumatra to reinforce the sparse Dutch troops there especially to guard the oilfields. There was also Naval cooperation – the Dutch kept their units mostly in NEI waters though this way they also observed the waters north of NEI south of US Philippines and south of the Japanese Carolina's. The RAN and RNZN operated north of New Guinea and east into the Pacific to patrol south of Japanese Carolina and Marshall Islands. The RN had kept its large Submarines in Singapore and as during the initial IJN attack on Singapore kept aggressive patrolling in the South China Sea to establish the whereabouts and operations of IJN and hit Japanese shipping when possible though this usually only happened along Hainan Island, Taiwan and the Chinese coast.
Did write a reply but seem to have some access problems about 2-3 hours ago and then was watching the game so only just getting access again.
That is a decent force in FIC and with air support should make an invasion very difficult, especially one involving an amphibious invasion. The only question might be the reliability of the local forces and population as at this stage a lot of them might be fooled by the Japanese propaganda about their so called 'Co-prosperity sphere'. This could cause problems, both in terms of espionage and also perhaps the reliability of some units.
Given that Japan now has a war with three western powers, two of which are great powers, arguably more powerful than Japan as well as having concerns with the Soviets and the bulk of their forces tied down in China its a dire prospect for the army. This is only going to get worse with more allied forces arriving in the theater, plus the situation in China very likely deteriorating as more and more aid reaches the KMT, let alone the Italian forces and possibly other western air and ground forces. Also the nature of the Japanese military are likely to make any defeats very bloody for the IJA as its likely to make ruinous attacks even when the odds are hopeless and given the firepower that is going to be available in many cases to the allies that is going to be murderous. As such while elements in the army will feel glee at the serious setbacks for their great enemy [i.e. the IJN] the more rational ones are likely to be seriously worried.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jun 21, 2024 8:13:40 GMT
Japanese attack on North Borneo January 1942 The IJN had assembled the 5 Aircraft Carriers at Taiwan to be able to deploy a serious fighter and divebomber force against British Borneo indcluding Brunei to be able to overrun these and capture the oilfields and refinery at Seria in Brunei and Miri in Sarawak. An eleborate plan was drawn up for cooperating of land based IJN Bombers at Hainan Island that was to fly across the South China Sea to hit the British troops under a Carrier fighters umbrella. The plan required lots of communications by radio in ciphers which made for alerting the Allies that something was brewing – though not what. Advance on NEI part blocked by Aus and British infantry along Dutch.
This time the IJN was able to hit hard. The Zero fighter aircraft pilots knew where they were going and already had some experience of fighting the WAllied airforces. The British Spitfire was a fine aircraft but not as agile as their's though with the identical armament. Due to the distance the RAF hadn't expected Japanese landbased bombers to attack under fighter cover. With the short range of the Spitfire it had to take off as late as possible to be given as much time as possible in the air. Drop tank hadn't been supplied to the Spitfires as they were to be defending the oilfields and refinery. Which prevented them from a more aggressive defence.
The Japanese aircraft did get through and the IJN Amphibious troops got ashore but the refinery at Seria and the oilfields at Seria and Miri had been demolished prior to British and New Zealand troops would retreat. The Japanese divebombers had been as effective as the German Stuka's.
The Japanese seemed to have guessed the Short Stirlings were very special reconnaisance aircraft so went after these at any occasion they were spotted. It had given away the IJN moving on North Borneo but it had also prevented too much information being collected on the actual composition of the Fleet. The RN Submarines had been able to tail the IJN part of its moving though regularly airpatrols had been active at day preventing the Submarines closing in even if the IJN still being shoddy on ASW.
Following the Japanese capture of the oilfields and refinery the British and New Zealnd Divisions were fighting a withdrawal south where the Australians had been buse building fieldworks and move up supplies and ammunition to be able to check the Japanese advance.
In the wake of the attack one British Submarine managed by night to move close to the IJN Force and torpedo a Fleet Carrier and sink it.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 21, 2024 12:44:39 GMT
Japanese attack on North Borneo January 1942 The IJN had assembled the 5 Aircraft Carriers at Taiwan to be able to deploy a serious fighter and divebomber force against British Borneo indcluding Brunei to be able to overrun these and capture the oilfields and refinery at Seria in Brunei and Miri in Sarawak. An eleborate plan was drawn up for cooperating of land based IJN Bombers at Hainan Island that was to fly across the South China Sea to hit the British troops under a Carrier fighters umbrella. The plan required lots of communications by radio in ciphers which made for alerting the Allies that something was brewing – though not what. Advance on NEI part blocked by Aus and British infantry along Dutch. This time the IJN was able to hit hard. The Zero fighter aircraft pilots knew where they were going and already had some experience of fighting the WAllied airforces. The British Spitfire was a fine aircraft but not as agile as their's though with the identical armament. Due to the distance the RAF hadn't expected Japanese landbased bombers to attack under fighter cover. With the short range of the Spitfire it had to take off as late as possible to be given as much time as possible in the air. Drop tank hadn't been supplied to the Spitfires as they were to be defending the oilfields and refinery. Which prevented them from a more aggressive defence. The Japanese aircraft did get through and the IJN Amphibious troops got ashore but the refinery at Seria and the oilfields at Seria and Miri had been demolished prior to British and New Zealand troops would retreat. The Japanese divebombers had been as effective as the German Stuka's. The Japanese seemed to have guessed the Short Stirlings were very special reconnaisance aircraft so went after these at any occasion they were spotted. It had given away the IJN moving on North Borneo but it had also prevented too much information being collected on the actual composition of the Fleet. The RN Submarines had been able to tail the IJN part of its moving though regularly airpatrols had been active at day preventing the Submarines closing in even if the IJN still being shoddy on ASW. Following the Japanese capture of the oilfields and refinery the British and New Zealnd Divisions were fighting a withdrawal south where the Australians had been buse building fieldworks and move up supplies and ammunition to be able to check the Japanese advance. In the wake of the attack one British Submarine managed by night to move close to the IJN Force and torpedo a Fleet Carrier and sink it.
Well that has complications for both sides. A base in N Borneo puts Japan closer to a lot of other targets and also means given time they could possibly repair the oilfields and refineries. Also the allies who have a heavier logistic structure could have more problems supplying their forces, especially if Japan can maintain some air control over the region. Other than the ports I think its relatively undeveloped at this period.
On the other hand Japan will have to maintain supply lines to their positions and those lines along with their bases are likely to be under continued threat from allied subs, mines, air and naval attack. Furthermore the loss of another fleet carrier, which I think is their 4th means they only have 2 full sized and designed fleet carriers left. They have a number of merchant conversions which were planned pre-war for quick conversion and those can carry a decent number of aircraft but are rather fragile. Also I think the British are pretty popular in their part of N Borneo so they could have support from the local tribes, which will help in fighting in the hinterland.
It might be interesting what happens to the Brooke's dynasty in Sarawak here. It appear they were very popular with the locals so depending on what the current rajah, Sir Vyner Brooke does in this circumstances. There's not a lot about him in his wiki entry. OTL he did leave for Australia but whether things would be different here with significant forces he might stay. On the other hand he is 67 so it could be that he decides to leave. He has three daughter but no sons. He has a slightly younger brother Bertram who possibly might stay but he's in his 60's as well. - However this is probably not important so don't go down this rabbit hole unless you find it of interest.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Jun 21, 2024 17:26:39 GMT
Japanese attack on North Borneo January 1942 The IJN had assembled the 5 Aircraft Carriers at Taiwan to be able to deploy a serious fighter and divebomber force against British Borneo indcluding Brunei to be able to overrun these and capture the oilfields and refinery at Seria in Brunei and Miri in Sarawak. An eleborate plan was drawn up for cooperating of land based IJN Bombers at Hainan Island that was to fly across the South China Sea to hit the British troops under a Carrier fighters umbrella. The plan required lots of communications by radio in ciphers which made for alerting the Allies that something was brewing – though not what. Advance on NEI part blocked by Aus and British infantry along Dutch. This time the IJN was able to hit hard. The Zero fighter aircraft pilots knew where they were going and already had some experience of fighting the WAllied airforces. The British Spitfire was a fine aircraft but not as agile as their's though with the identical armament. Due to the distance the RAF hadn't expected Japanese landbased bombers to attack under fighter cover. With the short range of the Spitfire it had to take off as late as possible to be given as much time as possible in the air. Drop tank hadn't been supplied to the Spitfires as they were to be defending the oilfields and refinery. Which prevented them from a more aggressive defence. The Japanese aircraft did get through and the IJN Amphibious troops got ashore but the refinery at Seria and the oilfields at Seria and Miri had been demolished prior to British and New Zealand troops would retreat. The Japanese divebombers had been as effective as the German Stuka's. The Japanese seemed to have guessed the Short Stirlings were very special reconnaisance aircraft so went after these at any occasion they were spotted. It had given away the IJN moving on North Borneo but it had also prevented too much information being collected on the actual composition of the Fleet. The RN Submarines had been able to tail the IJN part of its moving though regularly airpatrols had been active at day preventing the Submarines closing in even if the IJN still being shoddy on ASW. Following the Japanese capture of the oilfields and refinery the British and New Zealnd Divisions were fighting a withdrawal south where the Australians had been buse building fieldworks and move up supplies and ammunition to be able to check the Japanese advance. In the wake of the attack one British Submarine managed by night to move close to the IJN Force and torpedo a Fleet Carrier and sink it.
Well that has complications for both sides. A base in N Borneo puts Japan closer to a lot of other targets and also means given time they could possibly repair the oilfields and refineries. Also the allies who have a heavier logistic structure could have more problems supplying their forces, especially if Japan can maintain some air control over the region. Other than the ports I think its relatively undeveloped at this period.
On the other hand Japan will have to maintain supply lines to their positions and those lines along with their bases are likely to be under continued threat from allied subs, mines, air and naval attack. Furthermore the loss of another fleet carrier, which I think is their 4th means they only have 2 full sized and designed fleet carriers left. They have a number of merchant conversions which were planned pre-war for quick conversion and those can carry a decent number of aircraft but are rather fragile. Also I think the British are pretty popular in their part of N Borneo so they could have support from the local tribes, which will help in fighting in the hinterland.
It might be interesting what happens to the Brooke's dynasty in Sarawak here. It appear they were very popular with the locals so depending on what the current rajah, Sir Vyner Brooke does in this circumstances. There's not a lot about him in his wiki entry. OTL he did leave for Australia but whether things would be different here with significant forces he might stay. On the other hand he is 67 so it could be that he decides to leave. He has three daughter but no sons. He has a slightly younger brother Bertram who possibly might stay but he's in his 60's as well. - However this is probably not important so don't go down this rabbit hole unless you find it of interest. Well I didn't intend it to be an Allied walkover so both sides have to have some losses - important ones. Read that the US Submarines made for the IJN in area to be based close to Brunei to benefit from the oil at all! One thing to control it another to move it around. This also impede the IJN more than the Allies as its offensive capability is more limited. Without FIC it just can't leapfrog from area to area a rather serious blow to logistics.
Something about SAS in the Borneo jungle was about it making friends with the tribes.
I won't be going down said rabbithole but let the White Rajah get out in time. With oil installations prepared for demolition early on - prior to PH even with a possibility of holding on you would always prepare for the unthinkable.
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