stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 25, 2024 23:46:26 GMT
I suspect the initial idea would be for whatever American state to form being a kingdom as well as whatever happens in Canada. In fact with the colonies staying loyal I suspect its more likely to become a kingdom than Canada. Similarly because British settlers are going to go overwhelmingly to the former so Canada could well stay majority French speaking Catholic. In which there might be hostility at some point or another to staying in any British imperial system. We had that discussion earlier, it more realistic that 13 colonies after failed revolution, will become a Dominion of Britain Its best compromise between Government in London and colonist. On the others France could become a constitutional monarchy or Louis or one of his successors really fouls things up. Or lacking the industrial base of some other counties - i.e. iron and coal France might get eclipsed and for some reason or another ending up with some totally system of government or at least a different dynasty. It sound paradox, but Louis XVI could become the People king, if he made the Estates General of 1789 into The National Constituent Assembly In order to deal with french Finance crisis. (more act of idiocy, as brilliant statesmanship) It could let to Revolte, but were the nobility goes against the King and People. But will this be game changer like French Revolution and rise of Napoleon ? Would be interesting if industrial revolution will happen in France or not, either as part of solution to finance crisis or delay ? Without the bloody revolution of 1789 and Napoleon rise to power, Europa will not get Reset and new kickstart, the Holy Roman Empire would still be there. Similarly with the other points a lot depends on what develops. Without the Napoleonic wars but with constitutional reform of some kind in France and Britain going to be massively changed by remaining in control - at least for a while - there are going to be some huge butterflies and especially possibly in Europe. What's going to happen with the partition of Poland not being changed fairly dramatically by the rise and fall of Napoleon and what happens with Russia growing to super-power status. Certainly Russia will rise to super power, but also there is Habsburger vs Prussia, France that recover from it crisis, Britain, Spain under new Management. I wonder how the french Enlightenment, will influence rest of Europe special that patchwork rug called the Holy Roman Empire...
Quite late here so will reply quickly. a) Ah if we're had this discussion before then go with it. I tend to forget too many details nowadays with all the TLs.
b) The industrial revolution is already under way, mainly in Britain but think some early stages in what's now Belgium. It might spread somewhat more speedily in some areas without the revolutionary and Napoleonic wars disrupting things across much of Europe.
c) The HRE will stay a mess until its either massively reformed or collapses. The problem for Austria, which is still the dominant power is that a reformed HRE is going to be centred largely around a Germanic state and its empire is already majority non-German, which was the vulture that was coming home to roost for in the century from ~1815-1914. Here things might even go a bit faster as without a drastic reaction to OTL events in France there's going to be less power behind reactionary ideas but many of those reactionary ideas in the HRE are likely to be associated with Vienna.
d) Its not going to be easy for Prussia either as if the 2nd and 3rd Polish partitions go as OTL, which is reasonably likely a significant proportion of the population of the kingdom of Prussia will be Polish, including the kingdom's largest city which will be Warsaw. Furthermore without the reforms triggered by the 1806 defeats by Napoleon Prussia is potentially as reactionary as Austria and Fritz the Great basically established an extremely autocratic system where the king had virtually all of the power. Which worked reasonably well while he was in charge and in hi prime but needed a hell of a lot of work by the man at the top.
e) Not sure how much Spain can reform without someone very determined and skilled able to get the throne as it was even more reactionary and fractured in its government than pre-revolution France, not to mention its mishandling of its empire.
f) The French enlightenment will receive something of a 2nd breath with reform in France itself and also there's a chance than reform will occur faster in Britain as well as there was a fair amount of pressure for it not to mention this could be aided by the changed circumstances in the American colonies.
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Mar 26, 2024 19:44:24 GMT
b) The industrial revolution is already under way, mainly in Britain but think some early stages in what's now Belgium. It might spread somewhat more speedily in some areas without the revolutionary and Napoleonic wars disrupting things across much of Europe. yes, on Belgium some one borrow British hardware and smuggle them to Belgium, or Duchy of Burgund if Wittenbacher manage their exchange with Habsburg with blessing of France. c) The HRE will stay a mess until its either massively reformed or collapses. The problem for Austria, which is still the dominant power is that a reformed HRE is going to be centred largely around a Germanic state and its empire is already majority non-German, which was the vulture that was coming home to roost for in the century from ~1815-1914. Here things might even go a bit faster as without a drastic reaction to OTL events in France there's going to be less power behind reactionary ideas but many of those reactionary ideas in the HRE are likely to be associated with Vienna. Without the Bloody revolution and rise of Napoleon who terminated HRE, i guess that HRE will rot further, Were Prussia and Habsburg start another war over dominance of HRE. i guess in 1830 will happen revolutions in members states with demands for unified German nation, while Prussia and Habsburg intervene in there behalf... this could redrawn the political map of HRE like the Napoleon Wars. e) Not sure how much Spain can reform without someone very determined and skilled able to get the throne as it was even more reactionary and fractured in its government than pre-revolution France, not to mention its mishandling of its empire. The Spain got french as Kings in 1714, after Spanish Habsburg, eh died on side effects of inbreeding... now as Louis XVI had his problems, Spain Charles IV. had his "issues" He was more interest in Hunting as in ruling, what the Queen Maria Luise dit together with Manuel de Godoy (both were lovers) ! Manuel de Godoy was highly unpopular do this and his creative bookkeeping with Spain treasury... Charles IV. oldest son Ferdinand VII. was another caliber selfish, grasping, suspicious, and vengeful autocracy. who ruled with iron fist and with Inquisition & torture, after he replace his father it went so far that 1823 King Louis XVIII of France intervene military in Spain to get thing into order. and there was Don Carlos the younger Brother of Ferdinand VII. He was known for his firm belief in the divine right of kings to govern absolutely, the rigid orthodoxy of his religious opinions, and his personal piety. but he was will to respect the liberal Constitution of 1812. Now with or without Napoleon Ferdinand VII. would have putsch against Charles IV. to get Manuel de Godoy out way. he will become despotic until his Brother Don Carlos with french military aid take over the throne as Carlos V. |
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Apr 17, 2024 8:38:11 GMT
A Rough Chronology
1756–1763 The Seven Years War - France lost most of colonies and left with financial debt of roughly 10 billion in today euros.
1768 The Townshend Acts were enacted in the Thirteen Colonies, placing tariffs on a variety of common items that imported in the colonies.
1770 Incident on King Street (US: Boston Massacre)
1773 Boston Tea Party
1775
Begin of Revolutionary War against British rule
French King Louis 16th listen on his finance minister Jacques Turgot and Abandon the idea to support the 13 colonies
1776
The battle of Boston, General Washington make mistake to attack heavy fortify stronghold.
The Continental Army retreating after heavy losses, a serious blow for moral of that Army.
The New York campaign ended in disaster for The Continental Army, General Washington is capture by British Army.
Congress in Philadelphia appointed Horatio Gates as successor of George Washington.
The following battles ended in defeat for the Continental Army, in the 13 colonies the militias dissolve. the dollar become worthless.
Congress in Philadelphia start to negotiate with British Gouverneur to end the conflict.
1780s
The 13 colonies after failed revolution, become a Dominion of Britain, Declaration of Kingdom of Canada by British Government.
The forcibly resettle of British criminals to Dominion continue, Australian ignored.
Creation of The duchy of Burgundy under Bavarian Wittenbach, (the exchange Austrian Netherlands for Bavaria.)
1789
Louis 16th establish the Estates General of 1789 this transform by his blunder into The National Constituent Assembly.
The church and nobility oppose the Assembly, this let to civil war in France won by the Assembly and people.
Louis 16th becomes the People king and France a Constitutional monarchy.
1800s
The reforms by french National Constituent Assembly restore France finance and as National Power.
The Industrial Revolution happen almost 10 year earlier in Burgund, Netherlands and France.
Wittenbach consolidate there power in duchy of Burgundy making it very prosperous Nation.
1808 Putsch against King Charles 4th. of Spain by his Son.
as Ferdinand 7th. he rules ruled with iron fist and with Inquisition & torture.
This let too uprise in Spanish Imperium and declaration of independence of Spanish colonies in America.
1815 prince Don Carlos remove his brother Ferdinand 7th. from the throne with help of Louis 16th french army
He becomes King Carlos 5th under condition that He respect the new Spanish liberal Constitution of 1812.
1820s
King Louis 17th comes to power in France
in Spain happen age of enlightenment
rising tension between Prussia and Habsburg over who rules over Holy Roman Empire of Germany.
1830s the uprise and German Revolution in Holy Roman Empire of Germany.
were several Governments are overthrow and revolutionary council for united German nation is establish.
Prussia and Habsburg intervene to protect their power in Holy Roman Empire of Germany.
While the Duchy of Burgundy united there Palatinate territory with mainland Burgund
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 17, 2024 9:19:05 GMT
Ten billion euros? Doesn't sound like much, compared to today's debt. Or did you mean long scale billions, e.g. millions of millions?
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Apr 17, 2024 10:15:07 GMT
Ten billion euros? Doesn't sound like much, compared to today's debt. Or did you mean long scale billions, e.g. millions of millions? That conversion of the Original 700 Millionen Livre, one enormous sum in 18th century... |
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Apr 18, 2024 8:23:27 GMT
Since Napoleon not rise to political power, (he can have great military career)
He change map of Europa like none other
we look into Holy Roman empire of Germany and Spain without Napoleon
How would Italy evolve ?
18th century Italy in patchwork rug of Nations, most in economic & financial decline, like Republic of Venice, because change of trade route toward America.
Now its depends on great European powers France and Habsburg what happen next
Habsburg could try to expand into republic of Venice and incorporate into Austrian empire or as State of Holy Roman empire of Germany.
While Bourbon France defence the interest of the Bourbon-Sicily and Bourbon-Parma agains Habsburg expansion.
This could let to new wars on Italian soil between France an Habsburg
would be ironic if certain Napoleon make his name in this conflict
Another issue is Habsburg with Bavaria
Here the Wittenbach exchange Bavaria with Habsburg Netherlands
This shifts power Balance not only in Holy Roman empire of Germany, but also inside Austria Empire
like Hungarian Revolution of 1848 is crush by Austrian-Bavarian forces
Also in upcoming conflict with Prussia over Holy Roman Empire
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Apr 24, 2024 15:49:31 GMT
I found interesting article about exchange Bavaria with Habsburg Netherlands de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tausch_Altbayerns_gegen_die_%C3%96sterreichischen_Niederlande(you need Google Translate for english) Because the childless Wittelsbach Maximilian III Joseph of Bavaria died in 1777, The Habsburg emperor Joseph II sought to acquire most of the Electorate of Bavaria and the Upper Palatinate, Basing his claim on his marriage with the late elector's sister, Maria Josepha, already in 1714 Maximilian II Emanuel of Bavaria try this exchange in Peace of Utrecht 1713-1715. follow 1779 with The Treaty of Teschen, almost happen the Exchange. in 1784 Joseph II resume talks with Karl Theodor, the distant cousin Count Palatine and Prince-Elector of Maximilian III. however since Karl Theodor had no legitimate heirs, next in line of succession was Duke Charles II August of Zweibrücken. Who opposed vehement the Exchange, irony his brother became king Maximilian I Joseph of Bavaria... So what would bring the Exchange for Joseph II and Karl Theodor ? Habsburg get rid of Belgium ! it was always problem zone that needed Austrian Military present, like the French at border or uprise by natives. with Exchange the Austrian border end at Bavaria so no need for expensive military present in Belgium Also with Bavaria they got a redevelop prosperous state. making Karl Theodor a King, would secure the loyalty Wittenbach toward Habsburg, very important for election of the Emperor of Holy Roman Empire of Germany The Wittenbach would gain prosperous land and have their estate closer together. King Karl Theodor could have redevelop the Kingdom of Burgundy, into the great power in west of Holy Roman Empire. if the natives play along... |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 24, 2024 16:03:54 GMT
I found interesting article about exchange Bavaria with Habsburg Netherlands de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tausch_Altbayerns_gegen_die_%C3%96sterreichischen_Niederlande(you need Google Translate for english) Because the childless Wittelsbach Maximilian III Joseph of Bavaria died in 1777, The Habsburg emperor Joseph II sought to acquire most of the Electorate of Bavaria and the Upper Palatinate, Basing his claim on his marriage with the late elector's sister, Maria Josepha, already in 1714 Maximilian II Emanuel of Bavaria try this exchange in Peace of Utrecht 1713-1715. follow 1779 with The Treaty of Teschen, almost happen the Exchange. in 1784 Joseph II resume talks with Karl Theodor, the distant cousin Count Palatine and Prince-Elector of Maximilian III. however since Karl Theodor had no legitimate heirs, next in line of succession was Duke Charles II August of Zweibrücken. Who opposed vehement the Exchange, irony his brother became king Maximilian I Joseph of Bavaria... So what would bring the Exchange for Joseph II and Karl Theodor ? Habsburg get rid of Belgium ! it was always problem zone that needed Austrian Military present, like the French at border or uprise by natives. with Exchange the Austrian border end at Bavaria so no need for expensive military present in Belgium Also with Bavaria they got a redevelop prosperous state. making Karl Theodor a King, would secure the loyalty Wittenbach toward Habsburg, very important for election of the Emperor of Holy Roman Empire of Germany The Wittenbach would gain prosperous land and have their estate closer together. King Karl Theodor could have redevelop the Kingdom of Burgundy, into the great power in west of Holy Roman Empire. if the natives play along...
Well at the time the Austrian Netherlands [i.e. modern Belgium] was one of the richest areas in Europe, albeit as you say its expensive to defend against the continuous French threat. The latter is reduced somewhat by the Bourbon-Hapsburg alliance reinforced by the marriage of Marie Antoinette to Louis XVI. On the other hand swapping that territory for Bavaria consolidates Austrian territory and removes a nearby threat as well as gaining the Bavarian electorate vote.
The other issue of course is the reaction of Britain, the Netherlands and possibly some other states in the NW German area as it weakens the defensive line against French eastwards expansion.
I can't really see any Burgundian revival as virtually all the medieval state of that name is in French hands with the exception of Belgium and the Netherlands.
One other factor to be aware of. There were restrictions on the use of Antwerp as the Dutch especially, who controlled access to it, didn't want it competing with their own ports.
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Apr 24, 2024 17:38:20 GMT
The other issue of course is the reaction of Britain, the Netherlands and possibly some other states in the NW German area as it weakens the defensive line against French eastwards expansion. One other factor to be aware of. There were restrictions on the use of Antwerp as the Dutch especially, who controlled access to it, didn't want it competing with their own ports. The Dutch Republic will not be happy, having the Wittelsbach in south, but consider new Kingdom of Burgundy as buffer state against France. Here they take the lesser evil and grant access to harbour of Antwerp also to make needed trade with new Kingdom of Burgundy. Because the Dutch Republic had Time of the Patriots (1780 to 1787) With political instability combined with Dutch economy entered a period of stagnation and decline. Between House of Orange that rule more and more autocratic and the Patriots reformist that wanted either Dutch Constitutional monarchy or pure Dutch Republic. in end it became creeping civil war, then the Prussians invade the Dutch Republic do diplomatic incident. Britain could welcome this evolution because the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War I wonder could marriage between House and Orange with House of Wittenbach, unite kingdom of Burgundy with Dutch nation ? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 24, 2024 22:22:04 GMT
The other issue of course is the reaction of Britain, the Netherlands and possibly some other states in the NW German area as it weakens the defensive line against French eastwards expansion. One other factor to be aware of. There were restrictions on the use of Antwerp as the Dutch especially, who controlled access to it, didn't want it competing with their own ports. The Dutch Republic will not be happy, having the Wittelsbach in south, but consider new Kingdom of Burgundy as buffer state against France. Here they take the lesser evil and grant access to harbour of Antwerp also to make needed trade with new Kingdom of Burgundy. Because the Dutch Republic had Time of the Patriots (1780 to 1787) With political instability combined with Dutch economy entered a period of stagnation and decline. Between House of Orange that rule more and more autocratic and the Patriots reformist that wanted either Dutch Constitutional monarchy or pure Dutch Republic. in end it became creeping civil war, then the Prussians invade the Dutch Republic do diplomatic incident. Britain could welcome this evolution because the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War I wonder could marriage between House and Orange with House of Wittenbach, unite kingdom of Burgundy with Dutch nation ?
I can't see a dynastic marriage because while less important than in the previous couple of centuries religion still mattered with the Dutch being strongly Calvinist and the House of Wittenbach being devoutly Catholic.
I'm not sure the 4th Dutch War would occur here as without the French supporting the American rebels its unlikely to be a major war in Europe and if it did it would be likely to go badly for the Dutch because as you say their already a fading power and also their main overseas supplies lines have the British Isles in the war.
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Apr 25, 2024 2:34:10 GMT
I can't see a dynastic marriage because while less important than in the previous couple of centuries religion still mattered with the Dutch being strongly Calvinist and the House of Wittenbach being devoutly Catholic. I'm not sure the 4th Dutch War would occur here as without the French supporting the American rebels its unlikely to be a major war in Europe and if it did it would be likely to go badly for the Dutch because as you say their already a fading power and also their main overseas supplies lines have the British Isles in the war. Details, always is the little details, were AH authors fails... |
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Apr 26, 2024 11:16:55 GMT
some Thoughts on this TL Slower Industrial Revolution ? Since here is not Napoleon War in Europe, the Industrial Revolution, would not get it kickstart by the armament industry needed in this War I mean France and Burgund could introduce machines much earlier in TL, but could have slower development of modern industry. i realised if at Wittlebacher noting change in marriage politic (bit unrealistic seen deviance in TL) They could have King Ludwig II. (1845-1886) on thorn of Burgund ! Hard to imagine that Neuschwanstein could stand in Belgium Ardennes, instead of Bavarian alps....  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 26, 2024 15:34:26 GMT
some Thoughts on this TL Slower Industrial Revolution ? Since here is not Napoleon War in Europe, the Industrial Revolution, would not get it kickstart by the armament industry needed in this War I mean France and Burgund could introduce machines much earlier in TL, but could have slower development of modern industry. i realised if at Wittlebacher noting change in marriage politic (bit unrealistic seen deviance in TL) They could have King Ludwig II. (1845-1886) on thorn of Burgund ! Hard to imagine that Neuschwanstein could stand in Belgium Ardennes, instead of Bavarian alps....
It might be slower, it might be faster in some ways. The OTL wars [Revolutionary and Napoleonic] did prompt investments in military areas and demands for items like iron were boosted. However at the same time the mutual blockades and disruption of trade also seems to have delayed the spread of the industrial revolution in much of the continent.
Other factors of course is how government especially in France will compare to the revolutionary and Napoleonic ones of OTL Without considerable reforms, especially possibly in areas such as the levee forced labour and the provincial tariffs as well as the privileges for the 1st and 2nd estates those will still act as a millstone for development in France. East of Belgium/Burgundy things are likely to go more slowly, at least for a generation or two as without the wars forcing changes culture and ideas will tend to be a lot more conservative and also the HRE will still be there with all its complications.
Without those wars what happens in Europe and elsewhere? Presumably Poland is still partitioned fully and there might be more wars by Austria and/or Russia against the Ottomans? Will Prussia still stagnate after the death of Frederick the Great and if so for how long without the OTL defeats in 1806/07 to shake them out of it. Outside Europe does France still try and challenge the growing British domination in India or possibly make a move for Australia? It could be that France and Britain are rivals or end up co-operating in opening up China to world trade?
What happens with metrication? Does anything still occur and how much later might it be? That would be an addition drag in later generations as scientific and technological developments will be handicapped by a wide range of weights and measures, possibly also having an impact on trade.
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Apr 26, 2024 19:02:43 GMT
What happens with metrication? I guess with TL Civil war in France (nobility & cleric vs the King & national Assembly with common people) would bring allot changes. Also new french Government could usher new era with introduction of metric system similar to OTL french revolution. it is needed because, the old french system of measuring units was total mess. |
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on May 17, 2024 18:42:42 GMT
i look on expansion of Kingdom of Burgund
Even with exchange with Bavaria, their territory is still fragmented by bishopric diocese.
The Principality of Liege, archbishopric archdiocese of Cologne and Trier
Liege is easy part, the prince-bishop of Liège in 1789 was César-Constantin-François de Hoensbroeck, (1724 – 1792)
nicknamed by locals "tyrant of Seraing" and 1791 the "red executioner", do his authoritarian rule and disregard the misery of the inhabitant.
A famine in 1789 let to uprise, were de Hoensbroeck flee, only to return with Austrian Army in 1791, to restore bloody Catholic law and order.
Now in this TL, it Kingdom of Burgund who send troops to deal with situation on order of Emperor.
While the King Maximilian I. Joseph use opportunity to occupy Principality of Liege, blame de Hoensbroeck for the entire mess and Arrest him.
Install new prince-bishop of Liège from Wittlebacher family, with blessing of Vatikan after generous "donation" by Burgund.
This would unite Burgund (dived by Principality of Liege) also with duchy of Jülich.
how ever duchy of Berg and Electoral Palatinate are separate by archbishopric archdiocese of Cologne and Trier.
i have no idea how Wittlebacher can get those under controle and unifed Burgund with rest
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