miletus12
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To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on May 6, 2023 11:34:15 GMT
It was neither. It was far more brutal. You may apply other negative value-laden descriptors to the Stalin regime where it exceeded the Tsars' regime. Corruption and incompetence were not such characteristics. I agree that the brutality is the main thing we should care about, but why do you think that way re: corruption and incompetence? I actually have the same exact questions... Ever hear of a chap by the name of Grigory Kulik? He was a Stalin favorite just before the Winter War. He made Kuropatkin look like a military genius! And then you have Stalin, himself. He makes Nicholas II look like a rational actor. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 7, 2023 15:21:35 GMT
So with no British involvement, there is no need for the British to seize the Ottoman dreadnought battleship Sultan Osman-ı Evvel wich could keep the Ottman Empire neutral, until the see the total collapse of Russia and decide to join in. |
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on May 7, 2023 15:54:43 GMT
So with no British involvement, there is no need for the British to seize the Ottoman dreadnought battleship Sultan Osman-ı Evvel wich could keep the Ottman Empire neutral, until the see the total collapse of Russia and decide to join in. Depends on actually WHEN you set up the PoD and the decision of the Asquith goverment to 'definitly' staying out of the threatening/comming war.
IOTL the decision to 'seizes' these ships or at least not let them go anywhere the RN doesn't order them was made on 29th/30th July.
However ... the question of what might motivate the ottoman rulers at last to NOT join the frail and esp. not on the CP side is very different kettle fish. It seems often forgotten that the ottoman decision was quite a 'package' including security/benevolence/alliance with some Great Power guaranteering no further diminishing of the empire, investments, ...'plain' money, end of the 'capitulations', patronage and support against or for - agreements - regarding other esp. Balkan Powers.
The battleships were only one and by far not the biggist issue for the ottoman leadership. ... though a conveniant propaganda tool.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 7, 2023 18:12:05 GMT
So with no British involvement, there is no need for the British to seize the Ottoman dreadnought battleship Sultan Osman-ı Evvel wich could keep the Ottman Empire neutral, until the see the total collapse of Russia and decide to join in. Depends on actually WHEN you set up the PoD and the decision of the Asquith goverment to 'definitly' staying out of the threatening/comming war. IOTL the decision to 'seizes' these ships or at least not let them go anywhere the RN doesn't order them was made on 29th/30th July. However ... the question of what might motivate the ottoman rulers at last to NOT join the frail and esp. not on the CP side is very different kettle fish. It seems often forgotten that the ottoman decision was quite a 'package' including security/benevolence/alliance with some Great Power guaranteering no further diminishing of the empire, investments, ...'plain' money, end of the 'capitulations', patronage and support against or for - agreements - regarding other esp. Balkan Powers. The battleships were only one and by far not the biggist issue for the ottoman leadership. ... though a conveniant propaganda tool.
Well the Germans still could offer them SMS Goeben and SMS Breslau among other things for landing troops (if the Ottomans can do it) in the Crimea. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 8, 2023 12:10:59 GMT
Depends on actually WHEN you set up the PoD and the decision of the Asquith goverment to 'definitly' staying out of the threatening/comming war. IOTL the decision to 'seizes' these ships or at least not let them go anywhere the RN doesn't order them was made on 29th/30th July. However ... the question of what might motivate the ottoman rulers at last to NOT join the frail and esp. not on the CP side is very different kettle fish. It seems often forgotten that the ottoman decision was quite a 'package' including security/benevolence/alliance with some Great Power guaranteering no further diminishing of the empire, investments, ...'plain' money, end of the 'capitulations', patronage and support against or for - agreements - regarding other esp. Balkan Powers. The battleships were only one and by far not the biggist issue for the ottoman leadership. ... though a conveniant propaganda tool.
Well the Germans still could offer them SMS Goeben and SMS Breslau among other things for landing troops (if the Ottomans can do it) in the Crimea.
They could offer the Goeben and Breslau if those still go east and end up in Constantinople. Might well be the case or they might go somewhere different without the RN chasing them with a deadline looming. Would agree with nomommsen, that its unlikely the two ships Britain were building for the Turks being seized were instrumental in the decision of the latter to go to war. Although there is a chance at least that if their not seized Greece might try a preventive war before they were delivered.
Can't see a Turkish landing in Crimea. The Russian fleet in the Black Sea is still centred around a number of pre-dreadnoughts but their strong enough to fight the Goeben if it can't run - for instance trying to defend an invasion force - let alone concerns from torpedoes from subs or destroyers or mines, both of which historically caused serious problems. Also an isolated Turkish force landed in Crimea would quickly be overwhelmed. Its not like the 1850's when Russian supplies for their forces there had to be dragged by sledge from hundreds of miles away. OTL after some close encounters even the use of Goeben to escort much needed coal shipments from the Sinople region were abandon as too much chance of further damage to her.
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Post by Max Sinister on May 10, 2023 16:48:06 GMT
Quoted from "Virtual History: Alternatives and Counterfactuals": "Lloyd George, Harcourt, Beauchamp, Simon, Runciman and Pease agreed that they could contemplate war only in the event of 'the invasion wholesale of Belgium'. Charles Trevelyan took the same view." - "Wholesale" as in "not just the small SE corner of it".
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 10, 2023 16:50:07 GMT
Quoted from "Virtual History: Alternatives and Counterfactuals": "Lloyd George, Harcourt, Beauchamp, Simon, Runciman and Pease agreed that they could contemplate war only in the event of 'the invasion wholesale of Belgium'. Charles Trevelyan took the same view." - "Wholesale" as in "not just the small SE corner of it".
Well that was what happened once Germany invaded and Belgium decided to fight?
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Post by Max Sinister on May 10, 2023 17:12:27 GMT
Quoted from "Virtual History: Alternatives and Counterfactuals": "Lloyd George, Harcourt, Beauchamp, Simon, Runciman and Pease agreed that they could contemplate war only in the event of 'the invasion wholesale of Belgium'. Charles Trevelyan took the same view." - "Wholesale" as in "not just the small SE corner of it".
Well that was what happened once Germany invaded and Belgium decided to fight?
Obviously, they thought that way in the early days of the war (and before it). The Luxembourg invasion weakened their position already, and then...
Haffner expressed it that way: Initially they hoped that there might be no war; or between A-H and Serbia only; if not that, Germany wouldn't join; if they did, they wouldn't invade France; if they did, not through Belgium; if they did, with Belgium's approval... pretty many Ifs, but at the end of the day irrelevant because of what happened.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 10, 2023 17:22:37 GMT
Well that was what happened once Germany invaded and Belgium decided to fight?
Obviously, they thought that way in the early days of the war (and before it). The Luxembourg invasion weakened their position already, and then... Haffner expressed it that way: Initially they hoped that there might be no war; or between A-H and Serbia only; if not that, Germany wouldn't join; if they did, they wouldn't invade France; if they did, not through Belgium; if they did, with Belgium's approval... pretty many Ifs, but at the end of the day irrelevant because of what happened. So would Germany invading Luxembourg only get a British responds, what would Belgium do, and would France react by requesting to be allowed into Belgium in order to move into Luxembourg. |
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Post by Max Sinister on May 10, 2023 18:19:28 GMT
Obviously, they thought that way in the early days of the war (and before it). The Luxembourg invasion weakened their position already, and then... Haffner expressed it that way: Initially they hoped that there might be no war; or between A-H and Serbia only; if not that, Germany wouldn't join; if they did, they wouldn't invade France; if they did, not through Belgium; if they did, with Belgium's approval... pretty many Ifs, but at the end of the day irrelevant because of what happened. So would Germany invading Luxembourg only get a British responds, what would Belgium do, and would France react by requesting to be allowed into Belgium in order to move into Luxembourg. 1. Seems like it. The war hawks (Grey, Churchill) wouldn't like it, but if they have the majority against them... 2. No idea. 3. Quite probable.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 10, 2023 18:29:46 GMT
So would Germany invading Luxembourg only get a British responds, what would Belgium do, and would France react by requesting to be allowed into Belgium in order to move into Luxembourg. 1. Seems like it. The war hawks (Grey, Churchill) wouldn't like it, but if they have the majority against them... 2. No idea. 3. Quite probable.
Would the British agree to France moving true Belgium if this means the French Army being able to bypass German defense line at the border. |
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Post by Max Sinister on May 10, 2023 19:20:05 GMT
1. Seems like it. The war hawks (Grey, Churchill) wouldn't like it, but if they have the majority against them... 2. No idea. 3. Quite probable.
Would the British agree to France moving true Belgium if this means the French Army being able to bypass German defense line at the border. Guess so... they do have the entente cordiale, don't they?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 10, 2023 19:34:03 GMT
Would the British agree to France moving true Belgium if this means the French Army being able to bypass German defense line at the border. Guess so... they do have the entente cordiale, don't they? Even if Belgium does not like it, Belgium might end up in Germany side. |
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on May 11, 2023 5:11:10 GMT
Obviously, they thought that way in the early days of the war (and before it). The Luxembourg invasion weakened their position already, and then... Haffner expressed it that way: Initially they hoped that there might be no war; or between A-H and Serbia only; if not that, Germany wouldn't join; if they did, they wouldn't invade France; if they did, not through Belgium; if they did, with Belgium's approval... pretty many Ifs, but at the end of the day irrelevant because of what happened. So would Germany invading Luxembourg only get a British responds, what would Belgium do, and would France react by requesting to be allowed into Belgium in order to move into Luxembourg. ... actually ... the french ambassador to HMGoverment Cambon asked Sir Edward Grey about Luxembourg and its occupation by the germnas on 2nd August. Greys answer :"... I told him the doctrine on that point laid down by Lord Derby and Lord Clarendon in 1867. ..." (Brirish documents, vol. XI. document No. 487 pp. 274-275)
Her's some note about said 'doctrine'
In short:
HM Goverment doesn't care about Luxembourg.
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on May 11, 2023 5:19:18 GMT
Would the British agree to France moving true Belgium if this means the French Army being able to bypass German defense line at the border. Guess so... they do have the entente cordiale, don't they?
That ... unfortunatly ... didn't cover any military matters or specific 'situations' that might become a cause for some considerations on possible actions to be prepared for ... Grey diplomacy 
So ... the case of a violation of belgian neutrality and integrity (crossing any borders with military personnel) would have to be renegotiated within Cabinet first. Such assistance during military conflict - esp. deciding about the fate of another country - was far from natural for said 'entente cordiale'.
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