miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 1, 2023 18:43:35 GMT
This is a timeline, possibly related to the Showboat vs. The Iron Chancellor. Start point (Actual history)Timeline alterations I propose. 1. The Spanish American War results in American seizure of the Caroline, Gilbert, Marshall and Marianas Islands groups from Spain as well as the Caribbean territories, the Canary Islands and La Ceuta in North Africa. 2. The Philippine Islands gain their independence, but in a situation similar to Cuba, the United States foists on the Aguinaldo government a treaty allowing for a lease of naval bases in Subic and Manila Bays and the construction of a largish American colonial presence at those bases. The theory here is that the Americans are a little smarter about how this colonial imperialism thing is supposed to work (Not really, as evidenced by Cuba, but one can dream. M.). 3. Because of a much better Spanish Armada in the Spanish American war and extensive Spanish commerce raiding; the American navy is a bit less battleship happy and becomes excited about trade protection at sea, both the attack and defense of. After all, the whole point of destroying Cervera’s squadron off Tenedos, when he put in for supply and Schley surprised him, was because it was snapping up American cross-Atlantic trade. So… fast long-ranged armored cruisers play a prominent role in American thinking, while the Germans and British, misreading Mahan, go into their battleship building frenzy. Congress goes along with the balanced fleet plan, because of the Spanish American War history lesson and via Teddy Roosevelt, who Bull Mooses that large navy into existence to serve the new American commercial interests in the Pacific. 4. WWI as scheduled, but without Wilson, happens with the results that the Americans do a little bit better than historically. They show up fewer, a bit earlier, (1916), but far more prepared and trained. One major help is that instead of the incompetent John Pershing, Frederick Funston leads the AEF with TR’s blessing . He quashes the incompetent Billy Mitchell and favors the Scofield Gang. And thus the navy gets its hands on all things; aeroplanes, it having had previous technical successes with Samuel Langley, Orville and Wilbur Wright, and Glenn Curtiss to steer them to their aerial future. 5. The lessons of WWI, especially of seaplanes versus U-boats are USN remembered. Also USN remembered; is just how fouled up Jutland was, with the Royal Navy falling for Speer’s ambush and Beatty losing all of the battle cruisers, which left Jellico functionally blind. Instrumental in Scheer’s escape / victory was the use of Zeppelins as the German fleet’s eyes. Those big lumbering, blundering gasbags, as vulnerable as they were, still had radios and shadowed the Grand Fleet virtually unmolested. The British answer to the problem, the aircraft carrying ship, was not ready in time, and so Scheer had the reconnaissance advantage in spite of the North Sea weather. The USN vowed it would not be so caught in any future naval war with any possible adversary. =========================================================== The Washington Disarmament Conference of 1922 takes place in that above background and with some minor technological differences at least for the Americans. a. The Americans, early during WWI, converted two colliers, the USS Jupiter (USS Langley) and the USS Neptune (USS Wright) into ocean going airplane carrying ships to shoot down Zeppelins. While very slow, these “aircraft carriers” had more or less proven aircraft reconnaissance from them was also viable by 1918, during the Battle of the Atlantic, while they protected American troop convoys, and thus the Lexington class was designed as “aircraft carriers” from the keel up. This was in keeping with the American navy’s thinking about aerial scouting for fleets being quite important after the Jutland (1916) and Rosyth Raid (1917) fiascos of WWI. b. The U-boat menace had impressed the Americans to no end. 1 in 5 US ship transits in 1916 and 1917 had resulted in a lost US-flagged ship. Although the Germans had to hand over their U-boats to the Allies as a result of the Versailles Truce (Late 1917), as Admiral Sims laughingly called it, there was no guarantee that U-boats or someone else’s submarines would not menace American commerce in the future. This would require attention in a practical application as well as an international legally binding treaty sense. c. Battleships, at least the American ones, had played negligible roles in the war at sea. However the role of cruisers had shown that the Americans had too few of them and of the wrong kind. d. So with all of the above in mind, not only were the Americans very keen to halt a battleship building arms race that might lead to another general war, but they were also eager to play in the chinks to hobble or at least limit the attack /offense options of their main naval rivals. ===================================================== So there was some trading to be had. What was the result in this alternate timeline? 1. The battleship tonnage limit of 535,000 long tons for Great Britain and 375,000 for Japan was capped. France and Italy were limited to 310,000 tons. Technical armament limitations for main armament limited gun bore size to 40.6 cm or 16 inches. Unit displacement limits were set at 35,000 long tons. Similar limitations for cruisers’ bore size armament at 20.3 cm or 8 inches followed. The unit displacement limit for cruisers was capped at 10,000 long tons. 2. Britain could keep her 6 flattops already built, with replacement aof them fter 20 years. The Americans got 2 new builds, Japan got 2 new builds and the Italians and French got 2 each of their own, if they could build them. Unit tonnage limit was pegged at the American limit for 27,000 tons (See 4.). 3. The capping tonnage for American battleships was ostensibly 535,000 tons, but a clause was inserted that allowed the Americans to redirect 115,000 tons into aircraft carrier construction if they reduced their battleship tonnage. 4. With the two aircraft carriers allowed by treaty, the Americans could build, if they chose, the other four Lexingtons as flattops. They just had to scrap 115,000 tons of more battleships to get there. Goodbye; Arkansas, New York, Texas, and possibly Nevada and Oklahoma, and definitely Utah. Nevada would be the artillery training ship allowed in the exceptions clause as long as she was demilitarized. 5. Whether or not the Americans could get the torpedo clause to limit diameter to 53.3 cm or 21 inches and caliber to no longer than 15 bore lengths (315 inches or 800 cm.), well: we assume that they do and Japan legally had to scrap its WWI 24 inch torpedoes and the British never got to equip their NELRODs with their 24.5 inch diameter fish. Both of them will cheat and of course that will prompt a response. 6. Fortifications clauses in the Pacific generally very much hold as in the real history, and so does the contemptible nine-power China trade and exploitation treaty. The differences are Chu'uk and Singapore and Taipei are exempted from the restrictions. The Philippine Republic, being an independent nation, as is Thailand, are not covered by the non-fortifications clauses. Interesting? 7. The British Japanese alliance was decoupled over Canada’s protest. (Thanks Canada, we DO remember that Dominions conference where you argued against ending the Japanese alliance. M.). 8. Submarines should have been outlawed, but America and France insisted on a tonnage limit of 50% of capital ship tonnage. That is a lot of U-boats (88 each for France and Italy, possibly 180 for Japan.). The Americans with their own ideas would settle for about 100. 9. Cruiser tonnage caps was set at total capital ship tonnage limits. 10. There was a set cap tonnage for destroyers of 75% of Capital ship tonnage, except that individual units could not exceed 1,600 tons for leaders and 1,200 tons for standard destroyers. Main armament could not exceed 5.25 inches bore size or 13.35 cm for guns or 21 inches diameter and 15 calibers for torpedoes. 11. An exception for destroyers was that you could build as many destroyers as you want as long as they were of 600 tons displacement or less. Italy insisted on that clause. One last note. With the Caroline Islands in America's hands and the Philippine Islands independent (sort of) the main American west Pacific naval base is Ch'uk. Guess where December 7th will happen? So where do we go from 1922? This is an open participation timeline.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 2, 2023 16:13:45 GMT
Since we have a different American navy, what did it look like post WWI and post WNT 2.0? in 1922
Battleships
Pennsylvania-class battleship: (2 units) Displacement: 34,400 tons Length: 650 feet overall Beam: 100 feet Draft: 29 feet Propulsion: 80,000 ISHP. Armament: 9 × 14 in (356 mm) (3 x 3), 16 × 5 in (127 mm) (8 x 2), 8 × 3 in (76 mm) (4 x 2), 2 × 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes Armor: 13.5in Belt / 3in Deck Speed: 25 knots Ships in class: 2: USS Pennsylvania and USS Arizona Commissioned: both in 1916
New Mexico class (3 units) Displacement: 34,700 tons Length: 655 feet overall Beam: 102 feet Draft: 28.5 feet Propulsion: 80,000 ISHP Armament: 9 × 14 in (356 mm) (3 x 3), 16 × 5 in (127 mm) (8 x 2), 4 x 4 in (102 mm_ (2 x 2) 2 × 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes Armor: 13.5in Belt / 3.5in Deck Speed: 24 knots Ships in class: 3: USS New Mexico, USS Mississippi, and USS Idaho Commissioned: all in 1917
Tennessee class (2 units) Displacement: 34,500 tons Length: 655 feet overall Beam: 102 feet Draft: 28.5 feet Propulsion: 80,000 ISHP Armament: 9 × 14 in (356 mm) (3 x 3), 16 × 5 in (127 mm) (8 x 2), 8 × 3 in (76 mm) (4 x 2), 2 × 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes Armor: 13.5in Belt / 3.5in Deck Speed: 24 knots Ships in class: 2: USS Tennessee, and USS California Commissioned: Both in 1920.
Colorado class (4 units) Displacement: 35,600 tons Length: 660 feet overall Beam: 105 feet Draft: 29 feet Propulsion: 80,000 ISHP. Armament: 9 × 16 in (406 mm) (3 x 3), 16 × 5 in (127 mm) (8 x 2), 8 × 3 in (76 mm) (4 x 2 ), 2 × 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes Armor:13.5in Belt / 3.5in Deck Speed: 24 knots Ships in class: 4: USS Colorado, USS Maryland, USS Washington, and USS West Virginia Commissioned: Maryland in 1921, Colorado and West Virginia in 1922, Washington in this time line is commissioned with Colorado and West Virginia.
Two battleships are "decommissioned" or used for training;
Nevada class *(2 units) Displacement: 32,500 tons Length: 625 feet overall Beam: 95 feet Draft: 28.5 feet Propulsion: 75,000 ISHP Armament: 9 × 14 in (356 mm) (3 x 3), 14 × 5 in (127 mm) (14 x 1), 4 x 3 in (76 mm) (4 x 1) 4 × 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes Armor:13.5in Belt / 2.5in Deck Speed: 24 knots Ships in class: 2: USS Nevada and USS Oklahoma Commissioned: both in 1916 Notes: USS Oklahoma is the reserve battleship. As such she is derated to one working main turret (A) to make her treaty compliant under the tonnage cap. It would be about 3 months to install her stored X and Y turret assemblages and make her war worthy. Nevada has all of her A, Y and X main turrets derated, She is an artillery training ship with a working secondary battery. In war emergency, spare gun bartrels there are, but it would take two years to rebuild her barbettes and trucks to accept them.
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Armored cruisers
Pittsburgh-class armored cruiser: (6 units) Displacement: 11,400 tons Length: 650 feet overall Beam: 70 feet Draft: 25 feet Propulsion: 80,000 ISHP. Armament: 9 × 8 in (203 mm) (3 x 3), 8 × 5 in (127 mm) (8 x 1), 8 × 3 in (76 mm) (4 x 2), 4 × 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes Armor: 5.5in Belt / 1.5in Deck Speed: 28 knots Ships in class: 6: USS Pittsburgh, USS San Diego, USS Huntington, USS Pueblo, USS Frederick, USS Huron Commissioned: 1914-1918
Memphis Class armored cruiser (4 units) Displacement: 12,400 tons Length: 640 feet overall Beam: 70 feet Draft: 25 feet Propulsion: 80,000 ISHP. Armament: 9 × 8 in (203 mm) (3 x 3), 8 × 5 in (127 mm) (4 x 2), 8 × 3 in (76 mm) (4 x 2), 6 × 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes Armor: 6.0in Belt / 1.5in Deck Speed: 28 knots Ships in class: 4: USS Memphis, USS Seattle, USS Missoula, USS Charlotte Commissioned: 1914-1918
Notes: The Americans flat out lied about the tonnages to keep these c ruisers in service. They had nothing else to compare to the British Hawkins class, or the British battle cruisers.
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Aircraft carriers:
Langley Class (2 units) Displacement: 14,400 tons Length: 600 feet overall Beam: 70 feet Draft: 25 feet Propulsion: 15,000 ISHP. Armament: 8 × 3 in (76 mm) (4 x 2), Elevators: 1 fitted amidships. Catapults: None. Arrestors: Changes over time, but usually 4 wires and one mobile crash screen Aircraft: 24-36 Armor: 1.0in Belt / 1.5in flight deck Speed: 20 knots
Ships in class: 2: USS Langley, USS Wright Commissioned: 1917 and 1918
Notes, the Lexingtons are under construction and will not be in service until 1927 at the earliest. That is further up the timeline.
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Destroyers: In 1922, these were assembly yard made 1,000 tonners with 4 inch *(102 mm) gund (4 x 1) and 1 3 inch *(76 mm) AAA gun and either 3 or 4 21 inch torpedo tubes. They carried depth charge rails and with 25,000 indicated shaft horsepower and could make 35 knots. There were over 300 hundred of them, all barely able to cross the Atlantic one way, and all just about useless as they were badly designed to begin with. As soon as the 10 year rule kicked in the USN was going to ditch them all if it could.
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The submarines were also worthless being mostly 500 ton displacement coast defense boats.
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Oilers, floating docks, ammunition ships and transports. THe USN has 4 oilers of the Jupiter class, 2 floating drydocks able to take anything it has in commission and intended to use ships taken up from trade for ammunition support and troop transports. As a result of reparations, it does have access to four large and commodius German built cargo-passenger ships.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 3, 2023 14:24:41 GMT
Fallout from the Treaty: Years 1922-1930. The British: The Exchequer or Treasury as it now styled itself, was more or less tight with the monies allocated to the fleet. These post WWI realities of trying to pay down the national debt, rebuilding a shattered economy and massive demobilization of millions to be unemployed young men, hit the British admiralty like a pyramid dropped upon them. Their massive fleets of the glorious empire, with hundreds of ships scattered across the world ocean was an expensive luxury the bankrupt His majesty's government could not afford. THAT was why the British reluctantly agreed to the American treaty in the first place. The RN was about to be chopped in half, and it would have to accept naval parity with the upstart colonials. This did not sit well with the bigots in the admiralty. Politically and militarily the Royal Navy was dominated by the Beatty Crowd who did not like the treaty at all because it brought about that parity. As background, this cabal of cads and alibiers had rewritten / mangled WWI naval and army history to obscure David Beatty's absolute incompetence during the various battle cruiser actions he fought with Franz von Hipper, as well as the amateurishness of the British army command ashore. The two items were sort of intertwined, since the British upper classes had botched the war in two horese tamden. They, the clubbers, were deathly afraid that the Commons would find out the truth and turn them out, (As they did after WWII). That truth was remarkably dark. The British army had planned and fought the war with the well placed belief that the issue would be settled on land in France. This idiocy was straight out of Clauswitz. The expletive deleted of it, was that the Royal Navy should have known from the Napoleonic Wars; if not from Alfred Thayer Mahan, that the issue should have been settled at sea. The admiralty, however, plonked their chips on Julian Corbett and politically, until he expletive deleted the war at sea up, on the incompetent Winston Churchill. The RN did not prepare for the trade war, nor did it fight the trade war. It sought myopically to bring the German fleet to battle somehow, while also "blockading" the North Sea. Feints and grand sweeps and the Jutland battle and the botched battle cruiser battles, all looked good in the British post war naval annals, but the U-boat war came within a few hundred thousand tons of sunk shipping of doing the British in. THAT was what the Americans *(ADM William Sims) told Braindead Beatty and the Admiralty in 1917. They did not learn anything, the Royal Navy, at least not until Backhouse came in later and cleaned out the Beatty riff-raff. The RN, thus, went into the treaty to at least preserve some battle fleet "Paper Superiority". And in so doing, they missed the plot of what mattered. They were quite willing to argue battleships and cruisers with all the technical details. They did want to "outlaw" submarines, but they ignored such things as naval geography and fleet logistics in the treaty and thus cut their own naval throats when it came to their vital naval interests. Some of their junior officers (Andrew Cunningham), did argue that maybe the agreed cap ratios on destroyer tonnage was not too smart as it was too low, and meybe the submarine caps were too high for the treaty powers, but those junior officerss were ignored. The RN needed modernized battleships and battle cruisers and it needed trade protection cruisers. That was what mattered to the Beatty Crowd. The British especially wanted to finish the two G-3 plan battlecruisers that they had underweigh on the stocks and abuilding. These 40,000 ton 30 knot monsters along with the Hood, Repulse and Renown would restore the fast wing of the battle fleet and erase the memory of the battle cruiser slaughter at Jutland. That was the paramount Brtitish demand. With the R class and Q class battleships (10 ships with 80 barrels) and the battle cruisers (5 ships with 38 barrels) the Royal Navy would have their throw weight and speed advantages over the Americans and the Japanese. For trade protection, 53 and a half cruisers was not as many as 64, but the cap was on overall tonnage and did not specify how many cruisers had to fit into that tonnage. The competitors could not build anything equal to British ships anyway *(arrogance), so it was all right to live with 535,000 tons as the overalll cap and build a heavy cruiser class at 10,000 tons and make up the numbers with lots of light cruisers of 5,000 to 7,000 tons. 200,000 tons of heavies and 335,000 tons of lights yeilded 20 heavy cruisers and 47 light cruisers for 67, thank you. Aircraft carriers? Britain had 6, and everyone else who mattered had 2. Besides the Japanese could not fly according to Lord Sempill. It was not what Britain wanted ideally, but it was a better result than what anyone else got. Hah! ======================================================= The Japanese: WWI had not been kind to the Japanese. They had been loyal British allies and had expected to share in the spoils of conquest. For Japan this meant the German holdings in China was a given and their continued expansion along and into the Chinese coastal provinces would be accepted, if not actually welcomed (especially by the Americans. M.). The Japanese were also irritated that the British (and the Americans) hemmed in their trade and treated them as "racial inferiors". When the "racial equality" clause posed by the Italians first at the Versailles Treaty negotiations was squashed and then again at the contentious Washington Naval Disarmament Conference, again by the Anglo-Americans the Japanese made it a point of national honor to insist on a 70% tonnage ratio. This was not so much a mathematical defense ratio as the Japanese publically argued as it was a way to impose a practical recognition that the Japanese were an equal naval power, who had a right to force some concession of recognition from the racist westerners. This viewpoint tended to color much of the Japanese naval calculations more than practical technical details like unit bcharactersitics or mixes and matches and unit parities. It resulted in the 375,000 ton cap for the Japanese that allowed them 1 additional "inferior" battleship. It resulted in the two new Mutsu class battleships to match the four Colorados in gun bore diameter size. It resulted in the two new aircraft carriers to add to the two small experimental ones they had, which were conveniently classified as auxilliaries, instead as actual aircraft carriers as the Langley class were for the Americans. The Japanese got recognition, but they had no military rationale for what they wanted and obtained. They would manufacture an after the fact rationale and plan in time for the London 1930 Conference, but the naval treaty for them really made (in real history and in this timeline) no logiclal military sense. ======================================================= France and Italy: Both nations were lock-mirrored into each other and for much the same reasons. They both had bankrupted themselves in WWI. They both abandoned any naval pretensions they had to fight ruinous and politcally national psyche shattering land wars. They both reagarded each other as the principle threats to their African colonial impoerialist empires and ambitions, and they were within ten hours steaming time/ distance of each other's bases at La Spezia and Toulon. NEITHER could build massive fleets of battleships and neither could afford a naval arms race in case the Germans became frisky again. The French were the main drivers. They quibbled over minuitia and argued legalities endlessly and whenever the French obtained a tonnage definition or a bore / caliber limitation or exception, the Italians would proclaim; "Chiediamo esattamente la stessa cosa." (We demand the exact same thing.) If the French Marine National wanted two aircraft carriers, then the Regia Marina wanted them, too. Neither nation might know how to build them; nor what to do with them when constructed, but if the British, Americans and Japanese had them, then France and Italy wanted a couple each of their own, because the French would not want Italy to have them and they did not and so vice versa. There is naval logic for you. What made a lot more sense, was the arguments over cruisers and destroyers and submarines. See MAP. Toulon is just east of the bulge on the Riviera. You see where La Spezia is? The French argued for 2,500 ton destroyers as leaders. They got 1600 ton destroyers. The French did get 5.25 inch bore diameter guns. The British wanted 4.7 inch bore diameter guns limitations. The French also joined the Americans on the torpedo question. The Italians sided with the Japanese in the one startling difference of lockstep Franco-Italian opinion. Go figure. Anyway, the Italians and the Japanese also pressed for the 600 ton destroyer tonnage cap exemption. THAT was an error that the others let slip through.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 6, 2023 19:36:09 GMT
Treaty fallout from the American point of view: 1922 to 1930. The Treaty in this alternate timeline started an argument between the battleship men and the new flattop faction. In 1922 there was still serious debate as to whether bombers could hit ships, much less sink them. In this alternate history, the USN had conducted weapon effector tests on the German reparations ship, Ostfreisland, as well as some obsolete and decommisioned American ships. These ships had been stationary and thus little different from a target X ashore as far as bomb aiming went. 21 July 1921. They mostly missed. It did not help the naval aviators' case that to materially affect the ships with the 5% hits they scored, that the bombs had to be so large that it took Keystone "strategic" bombers to carry the massive 2,000 pound bombs aloft to the paltry 3,000 feet from which those bombs were dropped. Yet the salient fact remained; that a German battleship, known to be well designed to resist sinking gunfire, had been sunk. The aircraft carrier clauses in the treaty, thus acquired perhaps undue public attention, as the "gun clubbers" argued fiercely that the American fleet keep its 535,000 tons all in battleships, and be satisfied with the 2 aircraft carriers allotted if the tonnage reallocation was not invoked. Moffett and the other air admirals went to Congress. Specifically they talked to Carl Vinson, an up and coming Unreconstructed Confederate congressman from Georgia, who needed an issue to make his name and win re-election in a rather tough race for his district against a fellow democrat, who was even more racist and bigotted than he was. Suffice it to say, that when Congress looked at the naval construction budget, while they cut funds for just about everything to the absolute minimum, "now that we don't study war no more", Vinson was instrumental in making sure the six Lexingtons^1 were finished as flattops. ^1 Lexington, Constellation, Ranger, Saratoga, Constitution and United States in the real history, but Lexington, Saratoga, Concord, Yorktown, Bunker Hill and Monmouth in this time line.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 7, 2023 17:02:44 GMT
Treaty fallout from the American point of view: 1922 to 1930. The problem with the destroyers. Where was there to begin? Try the effectors. 4"/50 (10.2 cm) Marks 7, 8, 9 and 10Bliss-Leavitt 21" (53.3 cm) Mark 8Immediately, it could be seen that there was a problem> The torpedo on book had a run out of 10,000 meters at 50 km/h or 27 knots at 10,900 yards. In function that meant an effective range of 5,000 meters and was useless in chase against any 55 km/h ship. How about the gun? It was 8 rounds a minute cyclic and the effective range was about 15,000 yards or 13,700 meters. Those were the "four stackers" teeth. Now look at what the Japanese did. Official Designation: 45 caliber 3rd Year Type 12 cmThis gun threw a heavier shell to about the same effective range as the US destroyer gun. But that was not the problem. 53.3 cm (21") Type 6 (1917)Essentially not too dissimilar from the Bliss Leavitt Mark 8 in function, if equpped with a bigger warhead and still not a problem. 61 cm (24") Type 8 No. 1 (1920)and 61 cm (24") Type 8 No. 2 (1920)There is your problem. That series of torpedoes could reach as far as the Japanese destroyer guns could. In the ATL WNT context, those torpedoes "would have been" outlawed, but as in the real history, it could be assumed that the Japanese would blandly claim that these were "21 inch" torpedoes and no-one outside of naval intelligence specialists would be aware of the difference. ==================================================================================== What will the Americans do with the 400,000 tons displacement cap on their destroyer force? Well the 4 stackers generally come in at 1,200 tons per unit so the Americans can keep 300 to 333 of them. In practice, half or them were laid up in ordinary. That still meant 150 or so bobbing around and the American Congress did not seee the need to replace them. As a corallory, the IJN had about 100 destroyers of their own, with an aggregate tonnage of a, b and c types of 100,000 tons. By the 75% rule their cap was somewhere around 280,000 tons, which left them a cushion of 180,000 tons of new construction. Nothing in the alternate time line treaty dictated how the units could be built except that fleet units were 1,200 tonners and leaders were 1,600 tonners. This made the alternate history destroyers, at least on paper, smaller than in the real history. Would the Japanese conform to the definitions? Surprisingly, at least through the 1920s, they did in the real history with only minor "cheating". They would build 41 such destroyers in the real history up to 1930. The Americans built NONE.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 8, 2023 18:43:51 GMT
Treaty fallout from the American point of view: 1922 to 1930. The problem with cruisers. What combat experience the Americans had with steel warships, showed them that as far as cruisers went, these were the most successful types. Further evolution of all big gun ship cruiser designs; was not so much based on the theories of Vittorio Cuniberti; as it was ascertained the practical experience of George Dewey and Winfield Scot Schley and the gunfire results surveys made of their work upon the Spanish wrecks fromn the 1898 1899 naval war. The rapid fire casemate mounted individual guns missed and the larger bore slower firing "chaser guns" now called main armament, hit with higher percentages. The 3% of the 5 inch bore and smaller guns, versus the 7% of the 8 inch guns might not have seemed like much of a difference, but the surveys took into account the number of shells expended versus effects as well as the probability of hits. Those Spanish armored cruisers were not damaged much by 5 inch bore guns. It was the 8 inch bore guns' shells that wrecked them. The added testimony of Spanish survivors interviewed by the Americans confirmed the statistical surveys findings.^1 ^1 All true: since we read in "Proceedings" beginning in 1900, articles that discuss the lessons learned from the actual Spanish American War. The lessons in the real history were applied to the battleships of the South Carolina class (Not Michigan as the Europeans are confused about American class naming conventions. First wet is first of class, not first laid down. M.) When it came time to build the replacement armored cruisers for the now obsolete Brooklyns, in this timeline, there was a push to repeat the Massena type battleship design in a repeat performance.
This was rejected in favor of a more Brandenburg type layout for the Pittsburgh class, but with triple turrets instead of doubles as in the previous US classes. These ships were soon to prove to be mistakes as the Y or amidship gunhouse and barbette had severely restricted firing arcs, while the scattered secondary battery of anti-torpedo boat guns proved to be impractical to lay as unified salvo or broadside fire weapons. Yet the Pittsburghs and the Nashvilles, all ten of them, were to become the "heavy cruisers" the Americans had, and all that the Americans had, because the American Congress in its wisdom decided not to fund any new ones for the ten year battleship building holiday. The British and the Japanese did not have the benefits of an American Congress. Ther British built 15 heavy cruisers and the Japanese built 8 before 1930. How about the light cruiser category, where the Americanss built a reduced version of the Pittsburghs in the form of the 6 inch bore gun armed Omahas in 12 iterations? That was all Congress would fund since the USN supposedly 24 serviceable light cruisers. If it was not a Spanish American War or pre- WWI unit or an Omaha as authorized up until 1922, it would not exist. From 1922 to 1930 the Americans built nothing. Unusually the British built 4 units, since they had over 55 relatively modern WWI era veterans; some of which they would have to sell off or screp. The Japanese with over 30 of type of their own, built just 10 units. .
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 10, 2023 6:45:47 GMT
Treaty fallout from the American point of view: 1922 to 1930. The problem with capital ships. Yes, in the real history and in this alternate history, there was a major problem with the capital ships. Be one British, or French, or Italian or Japanese: the problem was war weariness of the existent hulls. Most of the permitted ships allowed by the treaty had been worked hard at sea and as the exigencies of war had overruled common sense and prudence, the ships had wasted their useful life hours on ridiculous patrol sweeps or fruitless steaming that wasted inbuilt boiler hours and years of hull life. MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR, which is a daily constant for ships then as now was deferred or postponed as unnecessary due to immediate wartime need. The ships of all these navies prematurely wore out and overaged at an accelerated rate, in extreme cases, such as the French Marine National, putting abourt ten years wear on a warship in just four years of war. In the ships of the day, that was half of a warship's useful life. The Americans were a little better off. Most of their capital ships had been maintained and repaired even during wartime, as they ought to have been. Their ships were usually newer and frankly better quality built; if not as technically advanced as the British and wartime German builds. Of course after examining the German reparartion ships and observing the British ships in action, the Americans know what to fix in their own hulls. Damage control features became a higher priority retrofit, as was boiler replacement and rebuilding of gun-pits and slides and upgrading to an Argo clock type fire control system (The famous Ford fire control system of 1925.). There was little that could be done about the faulty layout of the ship's themselves, except to suppress the casemate guns and replace with more seaworthy and workable weather deck turreted guns. The problem with the American modernization program carried out between 1922 and 1930 for their battleships and alleged "heavy cruisers" was that the rebuilding was forbidden by treaty, as the french claimed, because increasing the elevation of the main armament and the rearrangement of the secondary guns was in effect an American cover program to build "new ships" as had been the American navy practice to fool its own Congress by building Theseus ships since the 1870s. The French were not wrong. a. By moving the secondary armament out of casemates into secondary barbettes, the Americans artificially and artfully increased the anti-destroyer protection of their capital ships and cruisers by a factor of 2 and reinforced belt protection by removing the casemate vulnerabilities (holes) in that belt. The secondary armament in the new gunhouses could actually elevate high enough to be used as "dual purpose" guns against aircraft and surface targets. b. Under the guise of modernization, improved boilers and steam turbine sets allowed for more efficient fuel use. This did nothing about work throughput, but it did allow for longer periods of sustained 3/4 turns (cruise) and 4/4 turns (flank) which closed the gap with the British in overall fleet speed to near parity. c. The increase in main gun elevation doubled the effective engagement range from just under 11,000 yards at 15 degrees elevation to something more like 23,000 yards at 30 degrees elevation.^1 ^1 The real history of the Standards does not include a., until after Pearl Harbor. But for practical terms, the French griped about the rest of the American modernization program, which actually happened to the Standards.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 11, 2023 23:11:43 GMT
Treaty fallout from the American point of view: 1922 to 1930. How does one answer the question of the aircraft carrier clauses in this alternate treaty? You amswer it with what knowledge the people of the time knew or would have known with their experience, either real or as described in this timeline. Name ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.Lexington class Builders................................Fore River Shipyard' New York Shipbuilding Corporation Operators.............................United States Navy Preceded by......................... Langley class Succeeded by........................Ranger class Cost.....................................about $45,000,000 Built....................................1920–1927 In service.............................1927–1946 In commission.......................1927–1946 Planned................................6 Completed............................6 Lost.....................................3 Retired.................................3 General characteristics (as built) Type Aircraft.........................aircraft carrier Displacement........................32,000 tons claimed 36,000 long tons (37,000 t) (standard) actual Length.................................888 ft (270.7 m) (oa) Beam...................................106 ft (32.3 m) Draft....................................30 ft 5 in (9.3 m) (deep load) Installed power......................16 water-tube boilers; 180,000 shp (130,000 kW) Propulsion.............................4 shafts; 4 sets turbo-electric transmission Speed...................................34.5 knots (63.9 km/h; 39.7 mph) (actual) Range...................................10,000 nmi (19,000 km; 12,000 mi) at 10 knots (19 km/h; 12 mph) Complement,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2,791 (including aviation personnel), 1942 Armament.............................4 × twin 8 in (203 mm) guns ............................................12 × single 5 in (127 mm) / 25 AAA guns Armor....................................Belt: 5–7 in (127–178 mm) ............................................Deck: 0.75–2 in (19–51 mm) ............................................Gun turrets: 0.75 in (19 mm) ............................................Bulkheads: 5–7 in (127–178 mm) Aircraft carried.......................70-90 Aviation facilities....................1 × Aircraft catapult Installed in the rebuilds ...........................................2 × Elevators This is what they knew in 1922. Curtiss Wasp Operators United States United States Navy Specifications (T-1) Data from Curtiss Aircraft 1907–1947 General characteristics Crew: 2 Length: 23 ft 4 in (7.11 m) Wingspan: 32 ft 10 in (9.75 m) Height: 10 ft 2 in (3.09 m) Wing area: 288 sq ft (26.75 m2) Empty weight: 1,980 lb (898 kg) Loaded weight: 3,050 lb () Powerplant: 1 × Curtiss K-12 water-cooled 12-cylinder vee engine, 400 hp (298 kW) Performance Maximum speed: 163 mph (142 knots, 262 km/h) Endurance: 5.9 hr Service ceiling: 23,000 ft (7,010 m) Climb to 12,500 ft (3,800 m): 10 min Armament Guns: Primary: 2 × forward-firing synchronized .30 in (7.62 mm) Marlin guns Secondary: 2 × rear-cockpit .30 in Lewis guns on a Scarff ring, 1 × Lewis gun firing through aperture in aircraft's belly Note the lack of bombs and torpedo capacity? So why build it? It was supposed to down zeppelins and splash enemy scout planes that could observe fall of shot from an enemy battleline. Does that not make the giant Lexingtons a set of white elephants? At this break, in the real history, the Americans had planned on building a small purpose designed aircraft carrier, something along the lines of the Zeppelin-killer, HIJMS Hosho. (See photo). Imperial Japanese Navy aircraft carrier Hōshō conducts tests in Tokyo Bay in December 1922. Unknown author - Kure Maritime Museum, Japanese Naval Warship Photo Album: Aircraft carrier and Seaplane carrier, Supervisory editor: Kazushige Todaka, p. 12. In the real history, as a result of negotiations, the Americans and the Japanese were allowed to keep their "experiments" as training ships, while they could each take two capital ships building on the weighs and convert them into aircraft carriers, to "match" existent or planned British construction permitted by the actual Washington Treaty. Akagi and Amagi were the Japanese candidates. They were monsters, even by the Lexington class standards. The British would be stuck with Argus as their "experiment" and would have Eagle and Hermes and the three "Curiosities" ( Courageous Class) as their core naval aviation afloat strength. In the alternate timeline treaty, the Americans can either keep their first four battleships or opt to build their six "battle cruisers" as aircraft carriers. With the limitations and knowledge they had, they will in this timeline build all six Lexingtons, and through most of the 1930s, regret that decision as each flattop costs 4X the cost of a battleship to crew, logistically support, and maintain. It appears for most of that decade, that the trade in gun-line firepower for about 400 ineffective airplanes might have been a bad bargain, even if the 4 scrapped and or demoted battleships were pieces of junk. That was a short synopsis of the debate after 1930 down to the present.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 12, 2023 18:26:23 GMT
Treaty fallout from the American point of view: 1922 to 1930. Let us discuss the problem with submarines in the United States contest. I will quote from an article which seems not to be concerned with naval matters whatsoever. =============================================================================== That was a problem. The American boats of the pre-1920 era were of the harbor defense and coastal "underwater fighter" type: predominanntly small, fast underwater for the era, not designed for patrols, but more as sortie boats, and equipped with unreliable propulsion systems and very few torpedoes as their primary armament with the deck gun being an afterthought. The boats were almost universally coast defense adjuncts by intent and characteristics. The German U-cruiser campaign was a revelation. Even though the USN had experience with convoy both for the real history and in this alternate time line in WWI, the evidence was in that the submarine could and probably should be used as an offensive sea denial system. The problem, as you can see, that the object to be sea denied, the Japanese Empire, was some 15,000 kilometers away from the United States. That meant the under 1,000 tons submerged displacement American "submarine fighters" would not do at all. So enter the V-boats. These first attempts at American U-cruisers were about to set the limits for what the Americans would accept from the naval disarmament treaties. Those behemoths massed 2,500 tons submerged displacement. So in this alternate Washington Naval Treaty, the cap on submarines might be equal to destroyer tonnage, but those Pacific crossing American boats would be larger than the allowed destroyers; in real or alternate history terms. The thing about gigantism culminated in the twin debacles of USS Argonaut and USS Nautilus, both of 4,000 tons submerged displacement about the time of the treaty when laid down. Slow, unwieldly and mechanically unreliable would be a good description of these last two mistakes. It was in nine attempts that the USN would try to fix those problems, named, between 1922 and 1930. It can be reliably written that they failed miserably. As far as submarines were concerned, the Americans functionally had none, so the treaty was for this class a non-issue, either in the real history or in this fake one.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 13, 2023 15:49:45 GMT
ARTICLEWhat has that article to do with this timeline? Well; in broad outline, the three main players in the hypothetical treaty are still stuck where they were in 1922. I changed the naval geography by suggesting a Philippine Islands in a Cuban type "protectorate" status and a Theodore Rooseveltian type America more aggressive and successful in the Spanishj American War and WWI, with a more nuanced Micronesian presence in the Pacific. That was a bit of cheek on my part, because I always thought that McKinley and Roosevelt handled the Philippine Revolution the wrong way. It was worse than what happwened to Cuba, but it could have been better. The pieces for a Philippine self governing and associative partner were there. All we had to do, was "cut a deal". Some might think that is funny. If it was possible, and it surely was, then it is not funny. But as to innovation and to treaty effects. In this alternate timeline, I incorporated a few London Naval Treaty clauses to spice up the 1922 alternate Washington treaty. I also added a guided weapon clause *(the torpedo limitation) to reflect a more modern mindset about limiting effectors as much as launch platform characteristics and assumed that both the British^1 and the Japanese^2 would CHEAT on both as they did. ^1 The British built their Town class heavy cruisers with mounting straps for applique belt armor to increase their cruiser side protection. Did not work at all, but the cheat was there, for WE noticed it and created superheavyweight shells to defeat it. ^2 The Japanese bored out their guns and enlarged them on their battleships. They supercharged their propellant charges and in their modernizations easily exceeded the 3,000 tons "pad" allowed to rearrange existent protection allowed in the London Naval treaty for battleships. The Kongos grew fat by 5000 tons and doubled their watts. The interesting thing to me is how would the Americans "cheat"? I supplied a real history example in the deepening of the gunpits on the real Standazrds and the replacement of the real defective engine sets with the better ones intended for the South Dakota (1923) class iintended and subsequently installed into the "Big 5". I also postulated that the Americans would complete all of their Lexingtons and accept a reduced battleline tonnage as a result of hypothetical WWI experience in the uselessness of battleships. My assessment of Jutland, by the way, in that context was absolutely historical and real. The RN would be Jutland fixated as would be the USN gunclubbers. This would blinker in this altered treaty environment as well, hence the failure to develope submarine technology or a defense against it.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 14, 2023 16:32:01 GMT
The British sure wanted to torpedo somebody between 1922 and 1930: Short Type 81........................................................1913 amphib proof of concept. Sopwith Special torpedo seaplane Type C..............................1914 second proof of concept, failed. Sopwith Type 860.....................................................1914 land based failed. Short Type 184.......................................................1915 amphib very successful. Wight Twin...........................................................1915 land based failed. AD Seaplane Type 1000................................................1916 amphib failed. Blackburn G.P........................................................1916 amphib failed. Short Type 166.......................................................1916 amphib failed. Short Type 310/320...................................................1916 amphib successful. Sopwith Cuckoo.......................................................1917 carrier based successful but pilot killer. Blackburn Kangaroo...................................................1918 land based failed. Vickers Vimy.........................................................1918 land based failed. Blackburn Dart.......................................................1921 carrier based succeeded. Blackburn Swift......................................................1921 carrier based failed. Handley Page Hanley..................................................1922 carrier based failed. Avro 557 Ava.........................................................1924 land based failed. Blackburn Cubaroo....................................................1924 land based failed. Handley Page Hendon..................................................1924 land based failed. Blackburn Velos......................................................1925 carrier based failed. Avro 571 Buffalo.....................................................1926 carrier based failed. Beardmore W.D. IV....................................................1926? carrier based failed. Blackburn Ripon......................................................1926 carrier based and very successful. Handley Page H.P.31 Harrow...........................................1926 carrier based failed. Hawker Horsley.......................................................1926 carrier based succeeded. Gloster Goring.......................................................1927 amphib failed. Hawker Harrier.......................................................1927 carrier based failed. Supermarine Nanok....................................................1927 land based failed. Blackburn Beagle.....................................................1928 carrier based failed. Handley Page Hare....................................................1928 land based failed. Vickers Vildebeest...................................................1928 land based succeeded. Westland Witch.......................................................1928 land based failed. By contrast: Curtiss R-3, R-6 & R-9...............................................1915 land based very successful. Aeromarine 700.......................................................1917 proof of concept. Martin MBT/MT........................................................1918 land based successful. Curtiss CT...........................................................1921 carrier based failed. Douglas DT...........................................................1921 carrier based successful. Stout ST.............................................................1922 land based failed. Curtiss CS...........................................................1923 carrier based successful. Martin T2M (SC)......................................................1923 carrier based successful. Boeing TB............................................................1927 carrier based failed. Douglas T2D..........................................................1927 carrier based successful. Martin T3M...........................................................1927 carrier based successful. Martin T4M...........................................................1928 carrier based successful. Martin BM............................................................1930 carrier borne successful. The Americans were not as anxious as the British or the French in the 1920s. They were more fighter oriented and interested in downing Zeppelins. The Japanese bought British stuff, usually right after the British were about to take an aircraft out of service. That indicates that the RN during the 1920s was very much interested in the airplane as an anti-ship weapon. So what happened? In the real history, the trends of experimentation and use indicated that the British with more time on the line in WWI conducted a lot of combat drops / war shots against U-boats raiding out of Belgian and German ports as the U-boats sortied. This was mainly with largish seaplanes. The natural inclination to try to conduct such operations from aircraft carriers continued postwar with a mixed results record. There was enough success that the British developed air dropped versions of the Mark VII and Mark VIII 18 inch Whitehead torpedo from 1914 forward. The Americans, for their part, despite the highly successful Martins and Curtiss torpedo bombers, did not have the war experience nopr did they devote the money. Their first purpose designed air dropped torpedo was the 18 inch Bliss Leavitt Mark 7, designed in 1920 and still in service throughout WWII. Bothe the Whiteheads and the Bliss Leavitts, despite radically different designs had similar swim characteristics and effects: 30-33 knots or ! 60 KPHand 3,500 4,000 yards or 3,300 to 3,700 meters run. The warhead was about 300 pounds 145 kg of TNT in either case. The British quickly developed a cable nose retarded water entry system to prevent water impact from throwing the torpedo out of stable water entry or breaking it up. The Americans stupidly did not do this, even though they had the same fall out of control and breakup incidents as the British experienced. In the alternate history Moffett does not die in the USS Akron disaster (1933) and this all gets fixed, for Admiral Moffett was a friend of FDR as in "drinking buddies" go to Warm Springs Georgia to get away from the hassles drinking buddies.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 15, 2023 16:26:09 GMT
Some more real history; this goes to some crucial 1920s mistakes in how a navy went about its personnel management. I would draw particular attention to future ADM Harold Stark.Further: The points you should take away from this information, about Stark of the 1920s, are threefold. a. Stark was a careerist politician ladder climber who evaded the teaditonal USN ship-shore-ship-shore-career cycle to test out an officer's ability to lead as well as to manage. b. Stark never schooled through the Navy education system to learn "grand strategy" and the "operational art". c. Stark was ignorant of the technical tracks, that sea service would have driven home to him in day to day ship operations. And yet this utter fool was made Chief of the Bureau of Ordnanmce. When was that? Rear Admiral Claude C. Bloch, 1923–1927.......................not responsible for the mess, and proved competent. He started the new torpedo programs. Rear Admiral William D. Leahy, 1927–1931......................imbecile; failed to advance any of the urgent projects that Bu-Ord had in hand. Rear Admiral Edgar B. Larimer, 1931–1934......................knew what he was doing. Advanced the 1.1 inch AAA gun and the torpedoes program. Brought the 5 / 38 gun into service after exhaustive tests. Solved or at least pointed out the shell dispersion and duds problem with the main USN naval artillery. Rear Admiral Harold Rainsford Stark, 1934–1937..............expletive deleted. Why? He failed to TEST the ordnance or follow up Larimer's work. Hid the torpedo program failures from the USN operating forces, the Congress and the President. That goes beyond 1930. Why was it important in reference to the Washington Treaty? The Mark 14 Torpedo.Now how did the Japanese achieve under-keel detonations successfully? The Japanese had this curious custom. They assigned a line officer and a school trained technician to their weapon projects and made it clear that the price of failure would be significant as in "loss of face". Rear Admiral Kaneji Kishimoto and Captain Toshihide Asakuma.were the fortunate people assigned to make the Type 93 and Type 95 work in 1928. Since they both survived the experience, it could be assumed that they made sure the Japanese torpedo worked.^2 ^2 Remarkably, they sort of failed. In the many destroyer brawls the USN and IJN fought, the Japanese only sank 22 US ships and only 1 of those was a capital ship in surface combat. (USS Hornet after she was abandoned as a wreck. USS Wasp and USS Yorktown were I-boat kills due to post battle stupidity.) Going the other way, once the Mark 14 and Mark 15 was fixed, the tally was about 49 IJN ships with 3 battleships, 3 aircraft carriers and 4 cruisers being put down by US destroyer and submarine torpedoes. ============================================================= The peculiarities of either the real history or the alternate history of the WNT, plus the peculiarities of naval doctrines, within that treaty regime that each navy developed was bound to influence how each navy "looked" as it developed inside the treaty limitations. For the specific case of the British, they started with an early lead in naval aviation that they tried to maintain with a vigorous program of 1920s development, that surprisingly included an emphasis on anti-ship strike. They lost the plot with repeated aircraft program failures and with the political decision to roll the fleet air arm into their Royal Air Force going into the 1930s, but we are not that far yet. We just have the record of "mixed success" in which they still held a substantial lead. As for their technical development in the realm of torpedoes and guns? So much for that. The British understood their industrial plant limitations better in the real history and presumably in the alternate history, as well. They made several forays into modern gun development. Their cruiser gun armaments seemed to have been no worse than anyone elses'. Their new battleship guns were simply awful. As to the destroyer guns, the confusion engendered by the industrial base existent and the miscues as to how dangerous the air threat was, and size limitations inside the (alternate history) treaty, meant that manually loaded main armament was about the best the British could do for this class of ship. The British had 4 inch, 4.7 inch and 5 inch guns left over from the days when they were the principle designer and exporter of naval artillery to the world. None of these guns based on their heavy shells was capable of true dual purpose fire without powered assist. The British tried to get away with it anyway. They failed. They would relaize their mistake in the real history and try to design a power assisted ram 5.25 gun (1935) which they completely botched up as they had their 14 and 16 inch bore guns. Their second attempt would be a 4.5 inch bore gun which would be somewhat successful, but long after the crisis for which it was intended was over and had made the gun moot. (1950s.) There was the last question of AAA, or air defense. Ther British had a WWI solution in the scaled up 2 pounder, an oversized Maxim machine gun. It was what was had in 1922, if somewhat sporadically as a spray the sky and hope the enemy flies into it solution. It worked after a fashion. This would fail as planes improved. ====================================================== American torpedoes both in the real history and in this alternate history are a sad story which the treaty impacted. The Americans invented wake-homers and tested them in a crude form as soon as they realized the physical operating principles. Suffice it to say that the principles were available and understood from 1943 forward. Guns. The Americans did no worse than the British as to native designs which were original with the Fletcher and Seabury pattern guns of the 1890s. They had a dud shell problem when they migrated from 12 inch bore to 14 inch bore around 1912, that they did not solve until George Blandy urgently tested the shell designs in 1941-1942. Their gun salvo dispersion problem lasted into the middle of 1927 when it was noticed during a scout cruiser shoot-ex that the new treaty cruisers were dropping ladders a mile in radius in spot splashes apart. That is radius of the aim circle, NOT diameter. The problem resisted solution clear into the 1930s until RADM Larimer solved it with the Manila Bay shoot-exs. The 5 / 38 is the miracle gun. Nothing even comes close in the era for universality. It was a power-assisted ram manually fed piece that could operate at all angles with a riculously fast cyclic. That it wound up on anything American afloat attests to how useful it was. The 1.1 inch however was a dog. As with so mismanaged projects under the purview of the incompetent Harold Stark, this gun's development was politically as well as technically mishandled. ====================================================== Japan Torpedoes were not what the popular histories reported.Combine that failure with excessive nose wander because the Japanese botched the gyro control setup and you get the 3% probability of hit results for the IJN versus the 7% or so hit rates for the American Marks 14 and 15. Woe is us, depends on who writes the histories. As for guns, scratch a Japanese gun barrel and you can usually assume BRITISH *(Vickers) for anything larger than the Hotchkiss 25 mm. Like the Americans and the British, shell dispersion was a problem. The Japanese seemed to have escaped the dud fuses of the Americans and the faulty gun mounts of the British. .
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 16, 2023 16:03:17 GMT
What impact does the alternative treaty have on the naval operational art? This is hard to ascertain as the situation is a combination of means, resources, geographys and weathers. I can summarize by example. See MAP. France and Italy: As previously discussed, neither nation emerged from WWI in very good financial or political shape. Resources were limited. The French had theoretically twice the warship building capacity as Italy, but like so much of their industrial base, it was underfunded and tachnically backward compared to the latest German or American practices. France had the world's second largest colonial empire and access to resources that not even the British Empire could boast; so both her commitments and her nascent strength should have been enormous. Likewise her naval commitments required a prident investment in a globalist navy within the treaty limtis. However, that same treaty with its tonnage caps, plus the myopic concern with German and Italian threats limited the vision of the Marine National to short ranges both in terms of time and distance. The French "could have" built a true blue water fleet with a concommitant operational reach, but with naval eyes firmly pointed at the Ligurian and North Seas, thisn globalist potential with its applicable seapower advantages, went into the dustbin with the assumption that the British would be there to police the world ocean with the Marine National along for the ride. Italy, by contrast, was more sensibly positioned to be a regional or one ocean navy, so long as her ambition was confined to North Africa and the Balkans and the Mediterranean Sea. Her principle opponent was mistakenly assumed to be France. As a result, the Regia Marina dedicated itself to neutralizing the French in the western Mediterranean and neglected to address the other problem, which the lunatic Mussolini government created with its adventurisms; that being the British Royal Navy. It would be fair to suggest that the RM tried to belatedly address the problem within the treaty by modernizing its old battleships as much as italian means alklowed. The treaty did allow the Italians to build two aircraft carriers, which would have been of some use in power projection since land based aircraft were not capable of reaching the Suez canal, the MAJOR geographic feature the Italians had to neutralize to ensure the British could not operate in the Eastern mediterranean at all. But try explaining Mahan to a failed sergeant, a failed newspaper editor, a failed businessman and a successful street thug turned demagog and propagandist politician? He would not understand two stage operational art or why plugging up the Suez canal meant the death of the British Empire. In either case, both navies largely missed that boat. They were "Mediterranean" in mindset, ship building and in tactics and operational art. They would rely on "raids" as the methods and destroyer and cruiser forces as the means to fight each other. Both ignored RADAR as their eyes and the airplane as the instrument of decision. Both expected guns to be the decider with the torpedo as the ancillary. France's navy never got a chance to try the Italians out in the Ligurian Sea, a bathtub section of the Mediterranean known for good weather, and good gunnery, where French good gunnery tactics might have overcome Italian numerical parity and more modernity in ships. Weather in daylight favored the better trained and gun armed French navy, or it should have. They never got the chance. To the Italians naval credit, at least some of their admirals by 1930 had figured out that maybe they should pay attention to the "British problem". If Mussolini was not going to give them aircraft carriers, then maybe the RM could use asymmetric means to befuddle the Royal Navy? The Italian frogmen were a gimmick and a poor substitute by 1930 for a true comprehensive plan for dealing with the British. But then we will come to the British in a moment. ====================================================== The Japanese. The Japanese during the 1920s transitioned in the real history from a local defensive navy, mainly confined to the Sea of Japan and the East China Sea, their traditional operating areas to a more "regional" North Pacific environment. Unless you have studied the IJN, you may not realize that materially as far as their navy was concerned, it was a mostly foreign built, polyglot force of French and British type ships, leavened with captured Chinese and Russian leftovers from the First Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese Wars. To a staggering astonishing extent, the Japanese relied on British suppliers to design, build and maintain their fleet until about 1918. It was during the years immediately following the First World War (1914 forward) that the Japanese began to design their own ships and build their own systems according to their own design philosophy. Whether with artillery or torpedoes, the effectors the Japanese used prior to the real or alternate history washington treaties. It is significant to me, that this was the state of affairs in effectors until the end of the period when the Washington treaty was supplanted by the London Treaty of 1930. It was still essentially a smallish "British" type navy with a seasoning of captured or built foreign ships. The artillery was British, the torpedoes were GERMAN and the doctrine was decisive battle as taken from a mistranslation and misunsderstanding of MAHAN. So what was the reality here? Whether real or alternate history Treaty, the IJN was constrained by an economy about the size of France matched with a British style ambition as well as by the treaty caps. They, the Japanese admirals, were both efficient and clever in matching their limited means to their inordinate imperialist ambitions. You can see how geography and weather and technology aided and abetted their imperialist plans? First, they were far away from anybody who mattered. 10,000 kilometers is a tough supply obstacle to overcome, even if the world ocean makes it easier for the Americans than that lousy railroad made it for the Russians in the Russo Japanese War. Second, the homeland for Japan was shielded by Typhoon Alley. What navy in its right mind would FIGHT in those waters? The Japanese got that one wrong, too. I guess they had never heard of the CARIBBEAN or the Spanish American War? Anyhow, the Japanese until 1930 sort of puttered along using British means, Russo Japanese War methods and misapplied American doctrine to create the "Rengō Kantai" with its subset of the Kidō Butai, their aircraft carrier force *(British trained and British aircraft equipped in 1927). They dreamed of a Pacific Tsushima and expected to sink the Americans in a glorious battle somewhere in the Mariannas orf Caroline Islands. They expected that their "superior torpedoes" and their "victory spirit" would overcome numbers inferiority and the inability to protect their merchant fleet. They also counted on the weather as to its severity and the wind advantage to give them the initiative. Of course they understood sailing times and distances and the advantage of supply along short interior lines as Japan was the hub of a wheel of supply lines. See MAP. They got that one wrong, too. ==================================================== The British. By 1922 the British achieved at ruinous cost, the singular distinction of being the sole "global presence" upon the world ocean or so their admiralty thought. Their fleets had "supposedly" chased their chief European rivals out of the Indian and western Pacific Oceans and defeated the main German enemy challenge to their sea power in the North Sea. They controlled the three most important choke points of sea traffic at the Straits of Gibraltat, the Suez Canal and the Malacca Straits. They controlled 80% of the undersea cable network that was the intercontinental communications system of the Earth and they had a dozen fortified naval bases where they stockpiled or controlled half the fuel used by everyone's commercial shipping. Their very navy was twice the size of their nearest surviving rival, the United States, by tonnage. There was no existent submarine force to endanger their merchant marine anymore. There certainly was no cruiser force that could prey upon it either for the Americans had not built one. It should have been "easy" to squeeze that advantage into a permanent situation (real history); so why did they not? I guess that the first chink in the British position was that very U-boat war. It was not the British who won it. Consider that the issue was not decided in the Battle of the Atlantic. *See CHART. It was decided by the Allied (Mainly French) armies fighting on the western front and with activity by another navy. It was indeed British merchant shipping that carried about half the American troops to France in the brutal year of 1917, but it was not convoyed by the British navy. Those were American warships that covered those troop convoys. That paltry force of 22 cruisers and 60 some destroyers was thrown immediately into the U-boat fight. They did not sink many U-boats, (Who did?), but that was not the purpose of their presence. They convoyed successfully enough that 95% of the troops sent arrived in France. After that, it was a race between Ludendorf's spring offensives and whether the Americans could take up enough frontage and hold enough Germsns in place for the French to kick their teeth in elsewhere. Then came the North Sea mine barrages and the actions along the Belgian coasts to mine the channel and suddenly the U-boat sortie rate went down. The British never got a handle on the problem. The British admiralty had those lessons in front of them. It should have been obvious what the Royal Navy should have done. a. Make anti-submarine warfare the highest technical priority. b. Hang onto that Japanese alliance, because it was actually the Japanese who chased Britain's enemies out of the western Pacific. c. Don't torque off the Americans. How did they do with those three objectives? a. The Anti-submarine Division had done some work to create effectors (depth charges) and it certainly had spent a lot of money on the problem, but by the victory in the real history, they had failed to develop much in the way of detectors or useful tactics. The work postwar on detectors was continnued and resulted in SONAR which is falsely credited as a British innovation and invention when it was actually a combined Franco-American effort. The British latched onto this work about 1916 and produced a rather limited active echo sound detector just in time for testing after the war. To their credit they proliferated this basic device into every ship class they had existent by the time it was needed, but in the interim they failed to develop it much further or mass produce it in the quantities they needed. So they get a 2.0 out of a possible 4.0. b. The Americans wanted to decouple the Anglo-Japanese combine for good practical reasons. One of them the USN could handle. Not Both of THEM. See 3. The British scored a 0.0 on this one. Should have listened to the Canadians. c. Not torque off the Americans. Well that did not happen during the treaty talks. though the Foreign Office tried to be accommodating. See 2. The Americans eavesdropped on everybody and the British were not too circumspect in their private conversations. 0.0 here, too. All in all, the British did not heed their own lessons. There were other treaty influenced mistakes the British made: d. the British did not create a fleet train to supplement or replace isolated bases that were bound to be picked off by their rivals in time of war. e. the British did not exploit the curious loophole that allowed them to build ships of up to 2,000 tons displacement that could be armed with guns up to 6 inch bore, as long as those ships carried no torpedo tubes and did not exceed 21 knots in speed. That was stupid. f. the British did not retain their ships taken up from trade (STUFT) program that they had so laborously financed and created in WWI. So there went port control and convoy routing capability that took them two very expensive WWII years to reconstitute. g. The British threw away their fleet air arm. The treaty gave them twice as many aircraft carriers and a whole decade jump on everybody, but they squandered it. The treaty gave them that MONOPOLY and they wasted it. It was not that they did not spend the money. They made their conversions and they tried to develop the aircraft. They just wasted it all. h. The British spent the 1920s working on the Lessons of Jutland, which were valuable to be sure, as they exercised solutions, and then their traitors passed those lessons on to the Japanese for free, while rebuffing innocuous US inquiries. Meanwhile, did they do any intelligent naval planning for another worst case situation as they had faced with the Germans in WWI? Nope. Their war plans, if you can call those amateur efforts of the Beatty Gang warplans; assumed they would show up in the South China Sea and with the Americans, either as neutrals and onlookers or as junior ensign participants, there the RN would trounce those fellows from Tokyo in a proper Jutland somwhat to the south of Hainan Island. And for that effort at about the same cost as of the future French Maginot Line, the RN would build Singapore up as its future operating base. More money squandered. i. Nobody British did a weather, terrain, or technology study of the expected battlespace. NOBODY. The Japanese did. j. At least in the Mediterranean someone intelligent did think worst case and came up with an idea to handle the Italian problem. It was a clever gimmick. Bomb the Regia Marina in port. It worked for exactly three months. After that, the whole Mediterranean thing turned into a manure sandwich with the RN unable to seal the deal ever on the Italians. Incredible! That should have never happened. The Italians were hobbled by the treaty, and Mussolini so much that the British had a naval cakewalk handed to them. Refer to g. and h. for why the Italians hung on for three years. k. Then the British torqued off the FRENCH. ===================================================== The treaty and the Americans. The major thing about the Washington Naval Treaty is that it was an American treaty. You cannot understand what the treaty was or how it affected the American military. Notice that term “military” as it was the entire war machine? This actual treaty was not so much a disarmament treaty as it was an attempt to make the very conservative American political version of a Woodrow Wilson confidence game diplomatic sand bagging. In the real history, what was Secretary of State Charles Hughes after? a. Halt the battleship building race. Done. b. Save money. For the Americans; done. c. Achieve parity with the British navy. Done. d. Decouple the Anglo-Japanese alliance. Done. e. Restrict the Japanese navy to a defensive only posture. Failed. f. Ensure access to the Chinese market. Failed. g. Keep the British out of the Pacific. Done. h. Throw the British out of American home waters. Done. i. Make Plan Orange executable. Done. j. Keep the peace. Well, for as long as it could be expected after Wilson, Clemenceau and George botched Versailles up. Done. ===================================================== The alternate history treaty kind of modifies that real history result. The alternate treaty as constructed was and is subtle. I added the London Treaty clauses to the WNT earlier that allow the British to horse-trade a bit better on the non-battleship classes than they did in the real treaty. But they were so awful in the negotiations in the real history that they need the help in this timeline which probably will showcase even more starkly how the British negotiators failed their nation. a. Submarines the British allow; which helps the American cause, since the Americans fully intende to ignore the cruiser prize rules embedded within the treaty and fight a German style commerce destruction campaign against their enemies, presumably because the other fellows shoot first. b. The aircraft carrier monopoly is gone with that substitution clause. This makes the 1920s fritter away of the British lead much worse. True the Americans only have four flattops by 1927 in ther alternate history, but then they start running multi aircraft carrier exercises a half decade earlier than in the real history. c. The aircraft picture does not change markedly before 1936 with this alternate treaty, or does it? With more time, and more practice, do the Americans pay more attention to the torpedo as the weapon effector of decision? Do the Americans realize in the alternate history much sooner that their effectors do not work? Those blank years of 1930 to 1935, hurt in the Mark 13 testing and validation programs. It was not until 1939 that the torpedoes were supposedly actually ready.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 17, 2023 15:17:42 GMT
Continuing with the alternate treaty effects with respect to the Americans. It has been my conjecture, that the General Board of the United States, which included senior military officers and had a small secretariat that served as a sort of general staff for the American navy, took a wrong turn with the Spanish American War. This has a lot to do with the Schley Sampson Controversy which politically poisoned the USN and led to a schism within the officer corps. This set a horrible precedent which afflicts the United States Navy to the present. Briefly, the guru of the United States Navy, RADM Mahan took the side of orthodoxy and unity of and respect of the chain of command. He supported Sampson for those reasons of cohesion with the reasoning that if Sampson planned the setup, then he deserved the credit for the outcome of the same. That torqued off the fighting line officers who knew full well in operations that Sampson through his gross negligence and incompetence, had wrecked the engines of the USS Indiana in his joy jaunt to San Juan, Puerto Rico when she, the USS Indiana towed the USS Puritan on that glory hunt ride. In a further act of criminal stupidity, because the idiot refused the request of the CAPT Charles A. Train, to rotate the battleship USS Massachusetts out of service for much delayed and long overdue maintenance and CLEANING, there was a turret fire and explosion that wrecked that battleship and took her off the line for the duration of the blockade of Santiago de Cuba as she underwent emergency repairs. That was two American battleships own goaled through Sampson's criminal negligence and incompetence. Then the idiot engendered a pointless fight with the United States Army with an imagined personal feud with Fatso General William Rufus Schafter. It was to settle scores with Fatso that ADM Sampson, during a period when the Cuban revolutionaries warned him that ADM Cervera was raising steam and appeared to be ready to sortie, decided to meet with Schafter and have it out, instead of using the existent cable-phone rigged for ship to shore talk. Now to be sure, Schafter had told ADM Sampson to get bent the last time they yakked via phone, so maybe a face to face might have been necessary, but then ADM Sampson could have motored to Daiquari via admiral's barge. Instead, fully aware that Cervera was about to come out, that idiot took the armored cruiser USS New York City and the battleship USS Iowa with him as a bodyguard to go meet Schafter. It has never been officially admitted, but from what I read in the unofficial correspondence among themselbes, a lot of the USN oifficers present thought Sampson was a coward who flinched in the face of direct responsibility. As for Schley, he was stuck out on the western limb of the blockade arc, and had not been told of Sampson's plan of maneuver should Cervera come out. Heck, he was frozen out of the arrangements for command in Sampson's absence in that no signal designating an acting commander in Sampson's absence had been issued or arranged in standing orders. Insofar as Schley had to handle a Cervera breakout which involved avoiding ram attempts by the Infants Maria Teresa and an immediate gunnery duel with the Oquendo, while avoiding collisions among USS Brooklyn, Uss Taxas and USS Oregon, which when he sorted that confusion out, turned into a pell mell stern chase of Cervera's fleet; Schley conducted himself remarkably well. It was a captain's battle in the chase, but it was that admiral's immediate improvisation at the initial merge that prevented what could have been an embarrassing Spanish victory. From the Spanish point of view, but the essential facts of the case were that Schley was well aware after the battle, that but for the lack of scraping of bottoms of barnacles off the bottoms of Spanish ships and the lack of good fuel (coal) the American line would have lost that chase and or been outmaneuvered by the faster and more maneuverable Spanish ships. The only ships that had the speed and the firepower to stay with Cervera's ships were the USS Oregon, whose engineers had sabotaged the engine plant so she would give 110% rated power so as to pretend she was a cruiser, and the USS Brooklyn which had the speed, but which had taken one of her engines offline to conserve coal. Vizcaya, Oquendo and Colon were a handfui. USS Indiana and USS Gloucester handled the Spanish destroyers with the tardy assistance of the USS Iowa, but the point was that the Americans present learned that speed was an esssential tactical necessity. These were the same Americans who were doghoused when they took Schley's side in the controversy. They became the "cruiser faction". Sampson's side, except for the officers of the USS Oregon, became the "battleship men". Since Sampson's faction wrote the false histories and ran the navy after the Schley court martial, it was a "battleship centric navy" mindset and it stayed a slow battleship centric navy mindset right until WWII. And that monumental error was why the Americans fell off the innovation and adaptation wagon in the real history, ladies and gentlemen. The doctrine of "don't rock the boat and protect your career, took hold."
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 18, 2023 15:22:26 GMT
So what if the Schley faction prevails as a result of the Spanish American War, and the USN follows its experience instead of its politics? I suppose the emphasis would be more on a more French approach to naval warfare than the misunderstood Mahan lesson extenuente: To be honest, Raoul Castex's main work falls more outside the immediate 1922 to 1830 era covered here, but it must be remarked that he was / is the third of the naval theorists who affected the treaty era, insofar as some people (The Dutch, the Germans, the Italians, and the Russians) latched onto his early writings as an antidote to Anglo-American navalisms. As a consequence, he was the penultimate fusist of the Mahanic and Corbettan approaches of how navies work in that he proposed an antidote. Insofar as the Americans of the era were concerned, if his ideas could be said to have any germinal comparison, it would be to those American naval officers who were not Clauseitz infected with the devious notion of looking at the enemy battle fleet's destruction as the center of gravity and center of decision fixed points in naval warfare. Those would be the naval Jominists, who would be obsessed with the characteristics of communications and with the para-limits of the battlespace boundaries. In other words the naval officers who did not believe Mahan was about "command of the sea" and "decisive battle" as so many read him, but more in tune with the use and denial of the sea as a main means to the end. Thus in spite of what you read above about Castex, those Americans owuld have been more attuned with those parts of Castex's work, that saw the sea as a tool to national grand strategy than as an adjunct to the army or as a seeker of decisive battle. How do I know this? Because it is what I learned. We do not like Corbett, who forgot that when it comes to seapower, the navy is not subordinmate to the army, or to an immediater local tactical objective. The navy is the means in and of itself and unique to the environment in which it works and fights. If that tool is not so understood, then it will be frittered and squandered in ways and in operations that do not add or enable a nation to use the world ocean to its national ends and purposes. Insofar as Castex and Mahan shaped the "fictional" American attitude for the Washington treaty, the theory behind what the treaty had to achieve for the Americans, was to shape material limits and means so that the United States Navy could project the national will upon the world ocean while the competitor states of the most obstructive nature to that national will would be hobbled. To reiterate: a. Halt the battleship building race. Done. b. Save money. For the Americans; done. c. Achieve parity with the British navy. Done. d. Decouple the Anglo-Japanese alliance. Done. e. Restrict the Japanese navy to a defensive only posture. Failed.f. Ensure access to the Chinese market. Failed.g. Keep the British out of the Pacific. Done, h. Throw the British out of American home waters. Done. i. Make Plan Orange executable. Done. j. Keep the peace. Well, for as long as it could be expected after Wilson, Clemenceau and George botched Versailles up. Done. Raoul Castex would have given the Americans a 3.5 out of 4.0. Corbett would have passed them. Mahan? He would have flunked us.
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