miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on May 8, 2023 19:50:30 GMT
Nuts and bolts time. Let me begin by stating that I am Friedmanist.As a result, I have little or no use for Drachinifel, who is quite superficial and really does not understand what goes into naval technological and operational thinking. His comments on why the Standards were modified the way they were, ignores WHEN the Standards were modified into the seagoing monitors they became. The reasons he gives for the American modifications were: a. a desire to improve gun range for battle-line actions. b. a desire to improve AAA defense. c. a desire to improve underwater protection against torpedoes. Except that is wrong. a. deepening the slides and opening the face embrasures and re-caliber the guns was part of an overall program to improve the dispersion and fall of "ladders" at the expected and preferred North Atlantic battle ranges of 10,000 to 20,000 meters. There was no desire to "increase" the range as the American admirals were actually taught physics (ballistics), meteorology and optics, which Drachinifel apparently was not. You cannot hit much beyond 25,000 meters. To improve your odds; you have to drop patterns of shells about a minute to a minute and a half into the future; at where your tracking calculations predict an object roughly 200 meters long and 30 meters wide; which travels at 10 to 15 meters a second will be. If you do the time hacks, that is about 600 to 900 meters offset from where the target is at your present, as you solve its vector relative to you in ANY direction relative to you, to where it will be in that fuure. It is called predicted intended motion. So, as an American, as you perform shoot-exs with your brand-new Standards and discover a shell spread in a circle of about 1,500 meters across and 900 meters wide from near to far in the fall from you in the splashes, you have a BIG problem. The target can steam unmolested inside that kind of bracket with a 0.01 chance of any shell hitting him. How do you tighten the oval radii up and improve the hit odds? Decrease shot out muzzle velocity, increase the inclination of the trajectory, increase the mass of the shells for spin stability imparted by rifling and maintain point; adjust the propellant burn rate and introduce a center barrel ignition delay of 1 millisecond so that it, the center shell, is the follower in a two shots out of a three shot salvo per triple turret shots out. That was why the Americans elevated the limit of inclination of their main armament gun barrels to steepen the plunge. The result was now an oval of 300 meters wide and 200 meters near to far fall at most effective battle ranges. Your chances of a hit per salvo just went up 5x, using your same fire control system. That was for ALL of the Standards and for the new construction. When? 1931. b. The 5/38 did not become widely available until 1935. The 1.1 inch did not become available until 1939. So where was this huge increase in American AAA defense? The flak at Pearl Harbor was 1920s 5/25, 3/50 and .50 machine gun fire. We have the pictures of it. And yet the Japanese described it as the most appallingly effective AAA they ever encountered prior to 1943 when VT and the new AAA artillery finally reached the American fleet. What the Americans improved, which nobody else except the Italians did, was their AAA director control. That was worth more than numbers of barrels in an era of tight money and that was the choice they made, not guns. c. When did the big 5 get their blisters, which increased their cruising radius by 25% but did very little to improve their already astonishingly good underwater protection schemes? 1942. The other Standards which were damaged at Pearl Harbor received the same fix belatedly. All of them became slower by a knot. Let us discuss one last Drachinifel and other British naval commentators' myth: the superiority of British VC armor plate over its Midvale and Bethlehem Steel Class A. Expletive deleted. US armor plate class A until 1935 was deeply carburated, for one main reason. The Americans expected to have to use thinner plate on their new cruiser construction. They could make plate up to 12 inches thick with 40% face hardening that when mounted on special treatment steel hull metal backer could resist effectively predicted gunfire impacts by up to 15 inches Vickers Armstrong Greenboys at predicted battle ranges. We TESTED for it. In cruiser terms, that meant US 5 inch Class A armor with STS backer should have acceptable resistance to British 6 inch and most 8 inch shells expected. Going the other way, US superheavyweight Midvale shells were expected to punch through belts in thickness equivalent to their bore diameters. To get that shell body mass, some bursting charge mass had to be sacrificed; which is another meaningless claim of British naval technical superiority for the era that commentators trot out. US bursting charges were large enough to wreak havoc; when they exploded inside the enemy's citadel, as we have the enemy wrecks to prove it. How did that work out in practice? Ask the HIJMS Hiei what the USS San Francisco did to her. =============================================================================== Each navy makes its choices, based on what it expects and anticipates. The modern reluctance of the USN to indulge in "Hypersonic Missiles" as a fad, was / is based on cost of munitions and actual effector characteristics decisions as to how well the things actually work. The news reports about Chinese and Russian hypersonic missiles to the contrasry Americans have KNOWN what the limits were ever since we fielded the Pershing II which WAS a genuine maneuvering hypersonic guided missile. Until recently, it made no sense to buy and operate a HGV or HMV munition that cost 10x what a standard cruise missile costs. The USN needed 10,000 cruise missiles, not 1,000. we have a lot of targets to rearrange and teach the ways of peace, too. (SARCASM). Those missiles could not SEE to steer above Mach 8 or hit anything MOVING when they decelerated to see, before they were decoyed or shot down, as recently happened to a Zircon Russian HGV. You can guess with some alarm, if you are an American enemy, WHY the USN is now looking at "limited numbers" of maneuvering hypersonic guided missiles. ================================================================================ In this fiction. As originally described, the WWI era fictional American navy was built around a force of 3 x 3 battleships and armored cruisers not too dissimilar in layout from what the British looked at in their G-series post WWI battle cruiser designs. Or more properly an evolved, improved version of the Brandenburg class designs which was the fictional original inspiration. Now with that in mind and the fictional fleet as represented here IN 1930, because the means to modernize did not actually exist yet (^^^) DATE..........................................................7/1/30 BATTLESHIPS.....................................................10(2rc) CARRIERS, FLEET.................................................6 CARRIERS, ESCORT..............................................2 CRUISERS.........................................................13 (7rc) DESTROYERS...................................................100 FRIGATES..........................................................10 SUBMARINES......................................................81(10rc) MINE WARFARE...................................................36 PATROL..............................................................29 AUXILIARY..........................................................68(20rc) RIGID AIRSHIPS...................................................4 TOTAL ACTIVE...................................................359(39rc) SURFACE WARSHIPS...........................................141 What would I do? 1. Apply the historical modernization solutions to the Standards and the Nashvilles. Hopefully the better designed Omahas (3 x 3 six inch and 4 x 2 three inch will be the basis for a better class scout cruiser after 1935? 2. I can expect the historical AAA developments and failures. The 5/38 and the 1.1/70 arrive in service by 1935, and no earlier. In the meantime, I will have to improve my directors; as was historically done. When it comes time to change out the secondaries 5/51s and the 6/43s for the uniform 5/38s, it will be a scramble because of the split superstructure and the distributed main armament, but with the retained turbo-electric architecture of the power systems, the electrical supply of the Standards and the Nashvilles will not be a problem as much as it was on the later historical "fast battleships". 3. I have a choice to make between blistering and more fuel tankers. I lean toward fast tankers and accept the need to refuel at sea more often. I want to keep that fictional 25 knots for the battleships and 27 knots for the "heavy" cruisers as an absolute minimum. Losing a knot is contra-indicated. 4. I would want to suggest an earlier replacement of the Wickes and Clemsons; as destroyers. However,; I might remain historical for economic reasons. I need that money for submarines and effectors (torpedoes) and aircraft more than a new destroyer class. In the meantime, I can do some things, like trunk funnels and improve engine ventilation circuits. I can reduce top-weight by revising the deck and superstructure arrangements. I can rearrange the main armament. With these improvements on what is essentially a hull with modular building blocks piled upon it; I could improve the ships as ASW vessels, which is the only reason to hang onto these otherwise worthless pieces of junk. 5. A coastal defense submarine was never in the USN purview. Nevertheless, a coastal boat would have been useful as an export sale to the South American market as well as to possible US Pacific allies... I mean the putative Philippine Commonwealth and the DNEI. Nothing in the treaty covers foreign sales of a few submarines and aircraft to foreign states.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on May 9, 2023 8:16:27 GMT
A lesson in effectors. By 1930, if you asked an unbiased "expert" ( Fletcher Pratt) how the Big 5 stacked against each other in the year 1930, he would have asked you a series of questions to determine your bias before he gave you the hard truths you did not want to hear. His opinion of the United States Navy in the real history was not at all that flattering. In the social circles in which Pratt moved, he had a good overview of the up and comers in that navy, most of whom he considered to be politicians, gladhanders and charlatans. He had some respect for the British Royal Navy which still had a cadre of hard bitten Great War veterans who were cynical realists and who tried through the 1920s to keep the Royal Navy up to scratch in a world which; unlike their civilian masters, they knew to be incredibly dangerous and becoming more so to Britain's interests. The one real navy that Pratt, as an American, feared; was the Imperial Japanese Navy. He knew that the Japanese, although they had not had as much total combat experience in the real history as the British, French and German navies, still had more experience than the Italian or American navies from the Great War, and far more experience in the previous fifty years from the 1880s forward than any navy anywhere. He set great store about what historical experience did to a navy, to its traditions, and to how it would decide to fight. I mean the methods, not the reasons or the quality, though that, too, played a role in what to expect from a navy. In Pratt's view, as a historian, the Japanese navy had established enough history that he could predict its characteristics and methods. What did he expect? 1. The Japanese would seek "decisive action" to remove an enemy fleet. The logic was simple. If the enemy had no fleet, then the Japanese could move upon the world ocean and do what they wanted, virtually unmolested, against that enemy. 2. "Decisive action" did not and should not mean "decisive battle" or Kantai Kassen. If means could be found to destroy the enemy fleet without decisive battle, either by statecraft or an alternate military method other than fleet versus fleet, then that was the preferred method. Such a method would not be quite Sun Tzu (MISDIRECTION), since the Japanese military tradition was "the first decisive cut" decides the battle between samurai, but Fletcher Pratt warned his contemporaries, that the Japanese would plan and use means to asymmetrically cripple an enemy as the opening "cut" in any war. 3. By the 1930s, Pratt saw that the means to carry out such asymmetric means was diplomacy and the surprise attack. In the real history we have already covered what the Japanese did at the real 1922 disarmament conference in the above cited article, and we have seen the correct analysis to that conference result published. By 1930 neither the British, nor the Americans were going to give the Japanese any further concessions on the fortifications and the fleet numbers issues, so that would lead to some squabbling internally among the Japanese about how to handle the possible future military confrontation coming since the diplomatic defanging option was gone. The Japanese would diplomatically choose poorly, but militarily they would rely on what had brought them to the position of second among equals upon the naval world stage. They would invest in the airplane and in the torpedo as their asymmetric means of kinetic choice for the decisive first cut. This was in keeping with their use of the torpedo boat as the first strike weapon ever since the Sino-Japanese War of 1894. And as in that war, where the Japanese had used hired French experts to teach them how to build and use torpedo boats, which they first observed the French use against the Chinese seven years prior, so by 1930, Pratt saw that the Japanese, in the real history, and in this fictional one, would use the British as tutors in the use of and technical assistance in building a naval air force based on aircraft carriers and land based anti-ship strike aircraft. ================================================================================ American navy: The American naval tradition was not that deep. There was the Battle of Lake Erie, the Battle of Memphis, a lot of riverine warfare from the American Civil War and more amphibious operations in that war than even the British pulled in 200 years of their own naval fighting, but general "fleet actions?" The Spanish American War had exactly two in the real history. Manila Bay had an anchored Spanish fleet treated to a shoot-ex after a bold Mobile Bay type intrusion. While there was a LOT of wild maneuvering and counter-maneuvering within that static exercise, it was not a Trafalgar or even a Battle of the Nile in format. It came down to direct gunnery effects. Dewey had it and Montojo had not. The Battle of Santiago de Cuba Bay was a bungled blockade, imitative of the Japanese debacle of Weihaiwei of the Sino-Japanese War. The American army landed, so the Spanish cruiser squadron which had been idiotically parked in that fjord, had to leave or be captured. The Spanish admiral cleverly picked a Sunday when the Americans would be at church. He tried for early in the morning. He calmly waited for the idiot American admiral to split his fleet and absent himself from command responsibilities as a bonus. The resulting chaotic chase and sink-ex by the junior American admiral present; showed the Americans were good ship handlers and improvisers, but it was still "we have artillery that works" and they do not" as far as Pratt was concerned. In other words; the American navy was gun-happy and not experienced at general fleet combat at all. World War I had done nothing to change this situation. As for the British Royal Navy, they had a tradition of fleet battles, so they knew that they had screwed up multiple times against the Germans in WWI fleet actions, so they were on the communications and night tactics tracks. Especially after they had bungled the destroyers' action at Jutland they were keen to fix those problems. This, coupled with a series of poor in-uniform politician admirals took them away from their hitherto good tradition of innate strategic seamanship thinking. They became tactically myopic and did not operational art the British naval problem. =============================================================================== Fictional timeline: The Japanese had not faced an enemy who went after their commerce in any of their naval wars. In the War of 1812, and the American Civil War, the Americans had seen their merchant trade annihilated. You would think the Spaniards of the Armada, would have looked at the Americans and thought; maybe that is the way to BEAT the Americans? It certainly was the nightmare scenario for the American high command who created the Flying Squadron as a partial answer to protect American shipping along the Atlantic coast and who ordered Dewey to wipe out the Spanish east Asian squadron to prevent Montojo from commerce raiding US to China merchant ship trade. But in the real history; the Spaniards did not think that way. Honor demanded that they send a fleet to protect Cuba. Honorably they sailed to their doom. The difference between honor and stupidity, in a war noted for stupidity, is debatable. Suppose the Spaniards had listened to their admirals, not the idiots like Bermejo, but the professionals like Cervera and Montojo and Camara? It would not have changed the final outcome, that much. I suppose that Dewey would have blockaded and Merritt would have landed and we would have had a duplicate of the Santiago de Cuba campaign with Montojo either self-scuttled or sunk at the mouth of Manila Bay in a fashion similar to Cervera in the real history. Dewey was too good an admiral to make Sampson's numerous mistakes. Back in the North Atlantic, the situation, presuming Cervera raids the shipping lanes, and Camara heads for the Philippine Islands as he historically did, would give the USN a much different war experience. Cruiser chasing would teach the need for speed, for global communications, for astute diplomacy, and finally lead to cross Atlantic expeditionary warfare and something very much in the American navy's sphere of expertise, island and coastal invasions. I presume an expedition to the Canary Islands replaces Cuba. This would teach the Americans the lesson that a navy can force a decision if it shows up where the enemy has no choice but to come out and fight it. That is the naval operational art, which was very much a Mahan principle, but which was offensive and not defensive as the American national doctrine politically predicated and preached. To offer and refuse battle is the tactical component in the above paradigm shift. That kind of makes speed a technical platform consideration as well as makes mines and torpedoes as effectors very important to deny an enemy the means to escape a forced decision the Americans want. Another imperative of such cruiser warfare and in the presumed fleet battle that finally occurs between Tenerife and Grand Canaria in that channel (See MAP. M.), is that talk between ships, effective reconnaissance and the use of torpedo boats in a night battle will be driven home to the Americans. It was Spanish tactical naval doctrine on how they intended to fight under the lee of their coastal guns, and should have been what Cervera would have attempted at Bahia de Santiago if he had working torpedoes and a torpedo boat commander who actually knew what he was about. Vilamill was not that man. Presume that Santa Cruz de Tenerife had gone the way described above; and this was the fleet battle and not Manila Bay that set the formula for the way the Americans would fight in WWI as they protected their commerce in the North Atlantic and made war upon the Germans in the Pacific. Amphibious warfare, island invasions, raider chasing and commerce defense would be the USN WWI experience. Carry that fiction to this 1930 timeline. What do the Americans want their navy to do? a. Since they do not have a Philippine colony at risk, they are more interested in protecting their trade to China. b. Since they now have a Philippine Coomonwealth in their "sphere of influence" much like Britain has an "Australia as a dominion", there is a defense obligation, but not the odiious interference of overt oppression and direct rule. This opens options for both the Japanese to interfere and the Americans to counter-interfere in a sovereign Philippine nation. c. It is sensible that the Americans will carry power projection to its logical end not only operationally, but tactically. They will use the airplane and the submarine as these develop for their own methods from their fictional traditions, as the Japanese do from their real naval history. Hence: DATE..........................................................7/1/30 BATTLESHIPS.....................................................10(2rc) CARRIERS, FLEET.................................................6 CARRIERS, ESCORT..............................................2 CRUISERS.........................................................13 (7rc) DESTROYERS...................................................100 FRIGATES..........................................................10 SUBMARINES......................................................81(10rc) MINE WARFARE...................................................36 PATROL..............................................................29 AUXILIARY..........................................................68(20rc) RIGID AIRSHIPS...................................................4 TOTAL ACTIVE...................................................359(39rc) SURFACE WARSHIPS...........................................141 1. For reconnaissance in 1930, note the rigid airships, the zeppelins? These would be used for long patrols, much like we use long range maritime aircraft today. 2. The limited battleline and cruiser force has doubled, with modernization underway for the "heavies". There are by no means enough cruisers for global trade protection, as the British do, but the Americans are not thinking of surface raiders. They think of submarines instead, so the destroyers will be optimized for that role, as will be the slower non torpedo armed frigates. 3. With fewer battleships and heavy cruisers for the "battle fleet" and a decisive Jutlansd type gun battle, the Americans will be very interested in the destroyer as a primary ship killer and the submarine as a freighter sinker. The torpedo has to work. 4. And with the "long war" in view as to how they will fight (A three year naval campaign to establish a starvation blockade was the plan after the "Through Ticket to Manila was abandoned". M.), it was not too much of a stretch to surmise that submarine warfare and air bombardment would be the effectors. Once again; the torpedo has to work. The logic of the effector for the Americans in this fictional timeline is simple. Since they want to power project, destroy enemy commerce, and force the enemy to either fight and surrender after a pre-arranged defeat or submit to the blockade and then surrender; the torpedo has to work. After the submarine blockade settles in, and the island hopping marines finally bring airplanes within reach, then mine the enemy harbors and really clamp down a starvation blockade. That is the other naval effector. Mines.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
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Post by miletus12 on May 10, 2023 6:39:00 GMT
Bean counting: Japanese fleet in 1930 DATE..........................................................7/1/30 BATTLESHIPS......................................................8(2rc) CARRIERS, FLEET.................................................2(2rc) CARRIERS, ESCORT..............................................2 CRUISERS.........................................................21(10rc) DESTROYERS...................................................103 FRIGATES...........................................................0 SUBMARINES.....................................................21(9rc) MINE WARFARE..................................................10 PATROL...............................................................0 AUXILIARY.........................................................37(20rc) RIGID AIRSHIPS..................................................0 TOTAL ACTIVE..................................................204(43rc) SURFACE WARSHIPS.........................................136 If you are an American in this fictional (or real timeline) you become worried by the fleet that you see taking shape in opposition. The battle-line if you are a gun-clubber is too even a match for comfort. They have a 3 to 2 cruiser advantage in 1930 and for all practical purposes they will have destroyer parity; except that of your destroyers by this time, half are dedicated to convoy escort duty. You notice that the Japanese have not built that many submarines or supply and auxiliary sustenance ships. It truly does appear that they are adhering to their publicly stated national strategy of defense against either American or British aggression into Japanese territorial waters. That fleet is a defensive one, despite the largish aircraft carrier element to it. Prior to 1930, I am ashamed to admit, that was exactly the case. The Japanese were playing by the 19th Century rules of International Imperialism, as they thought the world still worked. Their fleet was designed to deny an intruder and exclude him from the Marianas Islands; north and west to Japanese home waters. It was a regional navy, although a powerful one. It was oriented for sortie and not sustained operations. It had no amphibious warfare element at all. NONE.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
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Post by miletus12 on May 10, 2023 15:47:04 GMT
2nd stage effector launch platforms. (Airplanes launching torpedoes and dropping bombs or shooting other aircraft out of the sky from 1920 to 1929. M.) British FAA (RAF) 1. Armstrong Whitworth Siskin Colonial imperialist fighter bomber intended for police work. 2. Avro Bison Carrier borne scout and artillery spotter aircraft. 3. Blackburn Dart Carrier borne torpedo bomber. 4. Blackburn Ripon Carrier borne torpedo bomber. 5. Bristol Bulldog Land based fighter. 6. Fairey Flycatcher Carrier borne fighter. 7. Handley Paige HP21 Land based fighter. 8. Hawker Duiker Land based recon colonialist imperialist police aircraft. 9. Hawker Woodcraft Land based night-fighter. Zeppelin killer. 10. Vickers Vespa Land based recon colonialist imperialist police aircraft. USNAF 1. Boeing F2B Carrier borne fighter. 2. Boeing F4B Carrier borne fighter. 3. Boeing PW-9 FB-5 Land based fighter bomber. 4. Curtiss F6C Hawk Carrier borne fighter. 5. Curtiss P-6 Land based fighter variant of the F6C. 6. Dayton Wright PS-1 Land based fighter. 7. Huff Darland LB-1 Land based bomber. 8. Martin MB-2/NBS-1 Land based bomber. 9. Vought FU-1 Ship-borne artillery spotter aircraft. Notice anything? Not a single Japanese designed or built land-based or ship-based plane existed! For the most part, the Japanese purchased or license built copies of British, French, German, or a few militarized copies of American civilian aircraft. The Japanese army and navy bought one offs or prototypes and imported hired experts to build these copies for their army and navy in their own factories until around 1933. They did the same with their pilot training programs. They used mainly British instructors / traitors. I wonder WHO is repeating that cycle today?
In the 1920s, if you were an aviation expert, you understood that the three leading technological air-powers were FRANCE, Russia and Czechoslovakia. Britain and the United States were second-raters who were well behind the French who coasted along for a whole decade on their WWI laurels. This would change around 1930 when the French government made a series of catastrophic political decisions as they reorganized their air force and subordinated it to the army. The drop-off in aero-engine and air frame research that resulted from that year forward put the French aviation industry about 1 complete development cycle behind the re-emergent Germans and the now leading British, who would pace the Germans through the 1930s. The Americans would remain a second rater themselves until about 1935 when they would finally wake up and smell the watts. By then it was almost too late for them to catch up. They would not reach air-power technological preeminence over the British until about 1950. Until then; it was always a year or two behind the British. Except in airframes; there the Americans were equals by 1940 and definitely superior to the British by 1942. ==================================================== Notice anything II? The British developed an anti-ship torpedo capability and deployed it. Much of their aircraft development at sea was based on three areas of interest: a. artillery spotting. b. torpedoing ships. c. Zeppelin killing. On land, the RAF was interested in: a. terrorizing the colonial populations within the British Empire. b. the usual WWI recon, army cooperation, strafing, and light bombing. c. Zeppelin killing. The Americans were a bit different: Land or sea; the emphasis was on defense: a. fighters predominate. b. there are some light bombers. c. an extraordinary amount of interceptor work is involved in land and sea based aviation.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
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Post by miletus12 on May 11, 2023 11:32:44 GMT
The National Defense Act of 1920.That is a fairly good and superficial synopsis of what the Congress thought had been learned from the American catastrophe that had been WWI, which could be justly, in the real history, be considered a massive defeat for American geopolitical objectives as well as a demonstrable defeat for American arms, despite the alleged 'victory" that the incompetent John Pershing achieved with his policy of the "rifleman is the decisive arm" and the human wave assault tactics he used, based on that concept. If the British had "Butcher Haig", we had "Blackjack"; or to use his other nickname coined by our pacifists; "Plow every fourth son under" Pershing. (INTENSE SARCASM). Many of his "recommendations" went into the National Defense Act. These were mostly army centric and were at variance with actual combat experience at the tactical, operational and strategic level. Pershing seems to never have heard of "combined arms", terrain studies, or "logistics". Fortunately, we had a few Army War College ( *Elihu Root implemented it. M.) staff officers by that time who took the Woodrow Wilson engendered chaos produced by the incredibly incompetent replacement appointee, Newton Baker, who had all the practical political and military knowledge of a blob of wet cement and the tact of the cement mixer that had dumped it. He was the idiot who picked Pershing in spite of advice from better men like Peyton March. Seriously, Lindley Miller Garrison was the previous ninny, but at least he was a "preparedness freak" who wanted to reform, reform, reform. The reforms he proposed were a slightly watered down version of the Teddy Roosevelt program as originally proposed by Elihu Root, which in turn were Spanish American War lessons learned. What were those Elihu Root lessons? a. A national planning staff (civilian) that could coordinate economic and political means existent available to mobilize the nation in case of a surprise war. b. A national military staff that would oversee a small standing professional army and train up a large peacetime civilian reserve force for expansion of that army in case of a surprise war. c. A Technical Operations and Evaluation directorate d. A combined staff of military and civilian professionals who would draw up contingency plans. This could be for anything from natural disasters to actual planning for what to do in case of a surprise war on a foreseeable and predictable case by case basis. e. A war staff (military) for planning operations. g. Commands or headquarters (Army/ Navy) that were objectives oriented and tasked to those objectives with appointed commanders and TACTICAL staffs. h. Service schools to train officers and non commissioned officers for the regular army, navy, and the national guards. One set of schools for everybody where possible, but branch and specialty career tracks where necessary. No more "elected officers" who blundered their men into ambush after ambush because no-one had taught them how to patrol or recon or fight or lead. No more ADMIRALS who wrecked valuable scarce ships because they were ignorant of physics, weather, cartography, and the limits of the ship's physical plants placed in their care. i. DISCIPLINE from the top down and adherence to civilian authority and direction. No more Sampsons, no more Otises, no more Mileses exceeding their lawful authority and committing warcrimes and atrocities and other assorted stupidities, just because they felt like it. Yes, that meant you saddled commanders with lawyers, but no more war crimes. Notice the inclusion of the NAVY in these reforms? ====================================================== From a functional situation of organization and strictly with the navy, the reforms should have tasked fleets (headquarters) within the ocean areas within they operated. I really do not care if they were named after the ocean, the patch of coast adjacent to the ocean, given a "station name" or a number (I prefer numbers, it confused the enemy. M.). Those are the TEETH, but what about the rest of the animal behind the teeth? The shore establishment? It was an administrative mess: Bureau of Yards and Docks; Bureau of Provisions and Clothing; Bureau of Ordnance (BuOrd); Bureau of Equipment and Recruiting; Bureau of Construction and Repair (C&R); Bureau of Steam Engineering (later the Bureau of Engineering); Bureau of Navigation (BuNav); and Bureau of Medicine and Surgery Obviously this led to authority conflicts and fiefdom building, and there was no General Headquarters Navy. It should have been changed. The logical thing was to take the existent "General Board" and make that the naval general staff and attach it to the Office of the Secretary of the Navy. It should have had sections a=>f like the overall staff system that Elihu Root intended for the president to have attached to his office. Something like that system grew into existence under the Chief of Naval operations, but with that officer between the "staff" and the secretary, the navy secretary could be lied to as happened to Claude Swanson and Frank Knox when the expletive deleted, Harold Stark, muzzled the naval staff and voice piped a series of lies as Chief of Naval Operations to the navy secretaries and to FDR. The point is that the combined naval assistant secretaries would directly handle the various necessities of the fleet as to function; instead of individual "military chiefs" who could hide their malfeasance in office, as the bureau system encouraged politicians in uniform to do. The bureaus tended to obscure the chain of responsibility behind firewalls of jurisdictional silence. In a combined civilian headed staff system, everyone knows where and who the screwups are; and it is hard to hide mistakes. And that is the point. You want that clear flow chart path toward named person courts-martial and political career ending firings when things go wrong.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
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Post by miletus12 on May 11, 2023 18:21:03 GMT
Pivot year 1930. What can you expect in this fiction? The British government has its turn as treaty conference host in Geneva. British goals were to very much keep the current warship construction holiday in place and to try to impose new limits on submarines and non-capital ship surface combatants. Their goal was to somehow retain their practical 150% of numerical superiority on their nearest competitor and rival, the Americans. Considering that nobody had discovered just how useful and deadly naval aviation was/is in a fleet battle yet; the British wanted to close the 10,000 ton aircraft carrier loop-hole and do something about limiting destroyer sizes as well as reduce the cruiser limits to something like 6,000 tons standard displacement per unit. These were specifically anti-American measures; as the Japanese were perfectly happy with these new limits as long as they got the limits with a 7-10 ratio in all warship classes in overall tonnage and equality in unit to unit limits. The French and the Italians were not happy about submarines, cruiser or destroyer limits. They wanted numbers and larger sizes. The fictional Americans wanted to attain practical numerical and tonnage parity with the British. They had their own reasons to support the Italian and French positions on non-capital ship limitations, mainly the need for range and overall ship speed and durability, as it operated 10,000 nautical miles from home. They should have wanted effector limitations on torpedo calibers, and bomb dimensions and masses, but we will assume that nobody agrees to that series of proposals and the British get much of what they want, especially the 10,000 ton displacement limit on submarines, and the other stuff; except for the submarines, and destroyers and cruisers; which means the French and Italians actually achieve what they want, and nobody else comes away happy at all. LNT turns into a Big Manure Sandwich. Everybody goes home mad, especially the Japanese and the Americans. That is what actually historically happened. ======================================================= The Japanese militarists lobby/mutiny their actual historical point of view to their civilian government through the time honored political acts of terrorism and assassination. Meanwhile, as the Hoover Administration elsewhere mismanages the economy, Charles Francis Adams III and his army counterpart, Patrick J. Hurley, another guy who knows what he is doing; get together to fix what they perceive as the defects of the National Defense Act of 1920. Saving money is a powerful excuse to get rid of the deadwood in the officer corps, rearrange the command structure for tighter administrative (Read civilian supervision. M.), and eliminate wasteful duplication, split responsibilities, fiefdoms and just plain inefficiencies in the "bloated American military". The air corps (part of the navy) and the tank corps (renamed cavalry) are sorted out based upon reality, the Pershing WWI gang is fired, and the leftovers, officers from the Schley Sampson controversy get the boot. It is not what Congress wanted, but it is what the country gets, as the armed forces are "downsized". It is merely paper work, but as reformers know, it is in the flow charts that the details are hidden. Those long delayed Elihu Root reforms become fictionally implemented. Practical results? The armed forces consolidate their service schools above their officer colleges and create new service schools to professionalize and career track their enlisted personnel. In the force structure; task orientation for the army and navy becomes the norm, as "commands" take the place of the traditional army and navy "districts". Areas of responsibility for systems become integrated as the systems are, for example; a ship is treated as a system, so anything that goes into the ship as an artifact part of it, falls under Sea Systems. Just as with human resources, the responsibility for career management, training, education, personal equipage and outfitting, and assignment goes to Personnel. Aircraft get their own staffing with Air Systems. Marines get Marines and their own slot in Personnel, and weapons gets Ordnance. One big unhappy navy should be the result. As for administering these "offices", that is what Plans and Operations is for. Plans and Operations is Secretary of the Navy for the navy, and there should be an equivalent for the army. Did I mention the national guards are navy and army, and they are folded in under and distributed among the staffs as part of the overall force? Army and navy staffing and administration should pass through the secretaries and into a presidential office of war. (Call it by its name. We do not make defense, we make war. M.). Let us see the Congress meddle in that. ===================================================== One last reform, something which the Germans found useful, even though they corrupted it and did not make it independent as it ought to have been, instead fragmenting into many little subbureaus. You need an Inspectorate charged with coming in as an independent auditor to check functions and plans, and administrative honesty. And do not forget your Judge Advocate General. You need those lawyers to prosecute what the inspectors find. What about the fighting hardware for the Americans as part of these reforms? We get to that bit next.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 14, 2023 18:31:23 GMT
From Battlecruiser to Aircraft Carrier. The obvious defects in the real history was the inadequate thought given to lifts / elevators and the fire fighting and damage control features required in such huge ships. One notable defect which the Japanese addressed with the Akagi and the Kaga, and the Americans did not with the Lexingtons, was the need to subdivide the hanger into more than two compartments by sliding fire curtains. This design debacle was not corrected until after the loss of the USS Lexington in war. The other major defect was the huge funnel assemblage that acted as a huge wind sail that would cause the flattops to heel into the direction away from the incoming crosswind. This combined with a permanent 3 degree list to starboard made land-ons to these bird farms "exciting" in an unnecessary and unsafe way that Japanese and British pilots did not experience on their own bollixed aircraft carriers. It could be remarked further, than the coke bottle shaped flight deck was a bit of an idiocy. The hard stand spots tended to make the flight deck yo-yo, a difficult evolution for a centerline axis flight deck. The problem is that during land on, planes parked on the take-off ramp block any attempt to make a go around on a too fast land-on that misses the catch on the arrestor wires. The inevitable result is a crash by the landed on plane into the forward parked planes if the crash barrier fails to halt it. The purpose of the crash barrier, therefore, is to be a crash barrier. The plane that crashes into it, is expected to be a write-off and the pilot in this era is also a write-off. Burial at sea is fairly quick and easy in that case. Once the fire is put out, the wrecked planes, there will be more than one and the dead pilot, and flight deck personnel are pushed over the side and flight deck damage is patched by the survivors up as quickly as possible, because other planes are aloft running out of fuel. Naval aviation in the year 1930 is a GRIM business. One out of two pilots, and two out of three planes, will be killed due to pilot error and human miscalculation. Practice will improve the procedures, and the odds, but not by much. ================================================= It was obvious that the Bureau of Construction and Repair should not have had the final say on the outfitting of the Lexington Class as to ship-borne armament. It was foolish to expect such a huge, vulnerable target to fight as a heavy cruiser. The British got that one right from the start. The added weight to starboard created by those 8 inch anti-suface ship guns contributed to the permanent list induced by the faulty distribution of the reserve fuel tanks and the incompetent funnel arrangement. The suitable fixes was: the ventilation circuit should be vented either to the sides or in aft funnels merged into the island. And those 8 i9nch guns should have been replaced by 5 inch AAA and supplemental bathtub mounted light AAA guns sponsoned just below the edge of the flight deck. And of course the elevators needed to be rebuilt into 15 ton capacity 30 x 40 deck lifts. ============================================================ The proposed changes, above, would have come about if in this alternate history, the WWI fictional experience with the USS Langley and the USS Wright, limited as it was, had come to the fore. Of course, that presumes Technical Operations and Evaluation becomes existent before the Lexington Conversions. Post conversions, after 1930, there is a much to fix in the flawed ships, especially after the USS Lexington (historically 1932), catches fire and almost blows up. See some of the built-in defects in the description that would require remedial action. What about the principle weapons of the new scouting force, the aircraft? The Americans do have the 1. Boeing F2B Carrier borne fighter. 2. Boeing F4B Carrier borne fighter. 3. Curtiss F6C Hawk Carrier borne fighter. 4. Curtiss F8C Helldiver* 4. Martin TM Carrier borne torpedo bomber.** 5. Martin T2M Carrier borne torpedo bomber. 6. Martin T3M Carrier borne torpedo bomber. 7. Martin T4M Carrier borne torpedo bomber. * Technically, it was a scout dive bomber. These planes fought King Kong and won in the famous 1933 movie. ** Refer to the casualty rate mentioned above? Each Martin torpedo bomber was an incremental improvement on the basic design to replace crashes, fall into the seas and other assorted "pilot errors" and landing mishaps. For the aircraft carriers. If given the sole monopoly of aircraft procurement, use and implementation, it could be easily presumed that the tactical aircraft for land and ship would be as similar to each other as possible. It would historically be a small naval air corps. Nothing in this fiction would change this fact. The money is not there for delusions of adequacy. But we can think about what an air corps would procure for the forces aland? Huff-Daland LB-1 A rather underpowered land based night light bomber.l Martin MB-2 / NBS-1 Thoroughly mediocre land based light bomber and a pilot killer. That is it?
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 16, 2023 12:45:46 GMT
HMS Vanguard: a truly strange warship. This is interesting. See MAP> THAT (^^^) is Pomerania, shaded in red. Now ask me why I have such utter contempt for the so-called strategists of the Royal Navy of WWI? And that includes Julian Corbett. The British were allowed to convert battle cruisers into aircraft carriers, THREE of them, plus the Eagle and the Hermes, from battleships by the Washington Naval Treaty. They chose the Fisher-ordered and shallow draft designed to go through the Danish Great Channel fast-monitors instead. You might ask; why not scrap the monitors and convert the three Admiral class hulls that were the sisters to the Hood? Lack of vision and common sense? I leave that speculation to other alternate historians. I will say that the British admiralty decided the Admirals were too dated and obsolete, so they canceled them in 1919 in the hopes of better battlecruisers, intending to build G-3 battlecruisers, which they presumed to be superior designs to the Hood and expected to arrive in 1924. The Washington Naval Treaty killed that plan. The RNophiles have blamed the Americans for it, but the real decision here was in the hands of Whitehall and Admiralty House. And thus we look at what the RN could have done fictionally differently. Maybe the admiralty (1919) could have held onto the three hulls they had in the hand rather than gamble on the G-3 hulls never? From such false economies and bad timing and lack of vision; can such results fall out.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 17, 2023 5:13:53 GMT
Victory Through Lighter Than Air PowerIt still comes under the heading of: What were they thinking? Just to show you, reader, that it was not just the Royal Navy, who were chock full of nuts. Miletus
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 17, 2023 17:05:31 GMT
Here is a speculation for Italy.It appears the projected statistics in the cite are a bit off: I needed better numbers for the fictional speculation. These specifications are collected from here: They cite Conway's 1985. I have that. It checks. Fraccaroli, Aldo (1985). "Italy". In Gray, Randal (ed.). Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1906–1921. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press. pp. 252–290. Remember the old saw? Meglio un uovo oggi che una gallina domani. Literal translation: Better an egg today than a hen tomorrow. English equivalent: A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Italy has a floating hull. Further along than any of the six Lexingtons. When was the Carracciolo scapped? She was sold off in October 1921; but was still floating unfinished as a hull during the Washington Naval Conference. It was still there. By accident, the Regia Marina still had a hull that they could convert into a flattop. What would it have looked like? The botched up HMS Argus gives us an idea. Based on HMS Argus statistics but in a roughly 100% larger hull by volume capacity, we can make an educated guess as to flight deck area and hanger capacity: Roughly: the flight deck would be 650 x 100 feet with one elevator. Plane capacity could be 35 to 45 aircraft. That makes her rather expensive, but still useful as a "learning ship" Certainly in the class of an HMS Furious which she would closely resemble. It would have been better than the Bearn. Miletus
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 18, 2023 12:21:33 GMT
How about France?The answers, to that rambling and confused question, are puzzling. And then we get this mishmash. And those solid reasons for violating the treaty, for they did violate the treaty until 1932. a. Anglo German Naval Agreement could not be an excuse because that was in 1935. b. The Italian defacto violation of the Agreement as of 1929 with the ovwerweight Zaras. This was a valid excuse. That is mighty THIN reed upon which to build a coffee table. =========================================================== Let us indulge in some fan fiction, shall we? As selected, it was obvious even to the French naval aviation amateurs of 1922, that the MNS Bearn conversion was too slow and too short to be a competent basis for an aircraft carrier. For all that MNS Bearn was a committee design and resembled more than superficially coincidentally the clown show that was HMS Eagle; it carried a three lift New York type elevator system, had a double hanger and a better fire fighting and damage control layout than thw British base model flattop. The French tried, really tried to make something out of her, but by 1931, the Marine National knew they had a complete turkey. If they only had the money to fix her? The MN wanted to replace the WWI dual triple expansion and turbine engines with an all steam turbine geared plant, replace the slow clamshell lifts with something more akin to American fast elevators, update the poor AAA directors and artillery and do something about the overheating in the hanger caused by following the British custom of boxing the hanger up and putting the engine ventilation circuit INTO rather than insulated away from that hanger by a void wall. It could be that the French, who were building in modular hull sections anyway before the Americans ever "invented it" for Liberty ships could have done an Italian job on the Bearn in 1922 and inserted a hull plug about where the original crane and mid hull expansion joint was. Just 40 feet would add a knot and improve the internals enough to make her a near Eagle. Better than the nothing gobbler that resulted in the original build conversion? M.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 19, 2023 10:26:22 GMT
I have utter contempt for that author and that article. You know that historians who have no practical military background or geopolitical understanding tend to simplify what they read, to dumb it down to "social movement" or "big central ideas". Want an example? The ultimate tool of naval victory in the 20th century was the submarine, the airplane and the freighter. The ability to use the sea and the ability to deny the sea rested in those three platforms. If the aircraft carrier had any role, it was to enable the submarine blockade line forward and the emplacement of land based aircraft to within range of the enemy homeland. It comes down to the tools and the selected mix of those tools to use the world ocean and deny the world ocean to the enemy. And further it comes down to the choice of which sections of the world ocean are important to use and deny against which specific enemies? Notice the heart of the anti-submarine hunter killer group hunting Russian submarines? and and The Mark 24 antisubmarine torpedo. For a navy that supposedly did not get it, it sure looks like the USN remembered the Battle of the Atlantic 2.0; since it INVENTED the ASW HK group, sonobuoys, the ASW torpedo and pioneered hunting down enemy submarines with her own submarines in WWII. The present priority for the USN is not the aircraft carrier, which the tacticians think will be a missile magnet. They are beggging congress for more submarines. Given that the Americans suppressed the Russian navy's huge submarine fleet, I would suggest that the author was "wrong". That is not what the American navy is currently doing either. If the inept author would look at where the USN positions and what it positions and what tools it emphasizes, the author will see that far from striking the Chinese mainlanders directly, the American navy appears to have reverted to the indirect use / denial core of Mahanic theory. If battle comes, it will be along those lines with the effectors chosen to deny a specific enemy in a specific ocean the use of the sea. The USN will conduct trade and economic warfare, not strategic central war, unless that is the order of the national leadership, which is also its primary mission and which would be done through strategic launch systems. ========================================================= So let us turn back the clock and figure out what the fictional American admiralty who think / thought the way I describe and not the ridiculous way the author missumes, and ask ourselves what they were or should have been about? See MAP. It was obvious from the real history that the American admirals were thinking along lines far differently from the way the author implied. If there was a core mistake the Americans made in 1920 to 1930, it was not in defining the specific cases and the specific ocean to be covered or how to use and deny the sea, or the means to procedurally do it: it was a series of technical and tactical practical failures, which were the mirror opposites (apparently) to those errors commited by the British navy. The Americans had a grasp of the identified threat, the area and the taskings. Where they flubbed the dub was in effectors launched from platforms and in how to use those launch platforms IN BATTLE. Even at that aspect, it now has been borne out, that the opponents, the Japanese, who became mythical naval supermen during the dark years of 1941-1944, both officers and rates, turned out to be not up to scratch, once the Americans started climbing that steep hill of experience. It turned out that the China War had given the IJN a three year lead in air operations, surface warfare experience and fleet handling. Once the Americans managed a few operations of their own, the IJN folded up like tin-foil in actual battle. That the tendency to run from a losing fight, quite unexpected by the way by the Americans, should have been predictable from a Japanese navy that taught that preservation of resources for the decisive battle was a paramount virtue. But that is in advance of where we should be in this timeline at the moment. As historically, the Americans should have invested in aircraft and submarines, two weapons not hindered by the actual or fictional Washington Naval Treaties. What they should have changed, and do in this fictional timeline is practical training for fighting and for the operational testing and evaluation of their launch platforms and effectors. For it is quite true that the USN failed to test their means or to train how to use those means for submarine commerce warfare and for anti-submarine warfare or for small scale surface fleet battles, though their war planners called for all of it and predicted its necessity. The British paid more attention to the "tactical aspects of naval warfare" and were a bit better at the 1920s technology. They were just lousy at strategic naval thought and the operational art. But that is tomorrow's look-see.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 20, 2023 9:09:35 GMT
Why did I write: The British paid more attention to the "tactical aspects of naval warfare" and were a bit better at the 1920s technology. They were just lousy at strategic naval thought and the operational art. Were the British that incompetent? Not really. The point of the article is well grounded. But the problem is that Mahan was out to educate the public as well as his navy as to why you needed to be a presence and a user of the world ocean in both the commercial and military sense. Most of his work was aimed at that public. Corbett was out to teach a professional officer class, who he assumed knew how navies worked and thus he was more focused on inapplicable and rather foolish Clauswitzean principles of land warfare applied to naval matters. Here is what I mean: The point is that Julian Corbett missed the fusion of economic activity and the flow of commerce as the principle that Mahan, the American, recognized as the basis of seapower, as its bedrock. Three quarters of Mahan's arguments to the American public for an effective navy as an instrument of national policy was based on the flow of oceanic commerce, which in a naval war, had to be the ultimate naval pbjective irrespective of any current state policy on the geopolitical stage. A navy was not doing its job if the use of the sea was not the primary and main focus of its activity. Corbett did not get it. And since he taught the wrong lessons to the British navy, they did not get it either.The navy was sent to die for a stupid national political policy goal that had nothing to do with seapower and of course it failed because Corbett was an amateur who had no experience with naval geography, while Mahan's peacetime and wartime experience drove geography home to him harshly, hence: And for someone who was supposed to be the apostle of British seapower, what did Corbett muff completely? As much as British historians try to deny it, it was the same mistake they would make in WWII, too. Why? ===================================================================== Well, look at the situation as the British admiralty saw it structurally in 1920. Who were they going to fight? The Germans? The German fleet was scuttled at Scapa Flow. The Russians? They had no navy worth mentioning. The French? Their fleet was obsolete and besides the French were "allies". The Americans? The in-crowd at Admiralty House hated the USN's stinking upstart guts, but a brief perusal of any half way credible American newspaper showed them the civil government in Washington was isolationist and the diplomatic signs present were that the Americans were going to neuter their own navy in a hope to stop an arms race, so that left... The Japanese. See MAP. That was what the British admiralty saw. Something like the WWI North Sea problem. Like the Americans they were targeted fixated to a certain extent. Their plan was for some kind of fleet battle in the South China Sea against the IJN at some nebulous future date. The British admirals were well aware the battle could be as indecisive as Jutland had been; but that would be okay as long as the Japanese fleet was neutered before they reached the British forward base of Singapore. If the Japanese were banged up so that they could not reach Singapoe, then India and Burma were safe. That was the planning assumption. And besides, if things got iffy, then the Americans and Japanese could be egged on into a "Let's you and them fight war" which would leave the RN to stab the loser (Presumably Japan.), in the naval back. It had worked against Napoleon after all. There was very little danger of a submarine war. The Japanese were too far away and too incompetent to mount a submarine campaign to starve out the British Isles. Besides the twenty five or so Japanese submarines were not too good. The Japanese threat was their IJN battleline and the ancillary ships that supported it. Hence the Royal Navy should emphasize remedial action in those areas where the Royal Navy had shown itself deficient at Jutland, namely night fighting, fleet communications and tactical leadership initiative; because the British suspected that the Japanese might be good at that stuff and the British at the time were not. So the British admiralty were not exactly stupid, if you bought those planning assumptions. but you know how things change? -- --The Japanese began to modernize their battleline. --They developed a fleet submarine that COULD have fought a North Atlantic campaign and a better one than the Germans' equipment by 1925; "if" the Japanese had not bought into the interwar purported American and British doctrines of how submarines were to be allegedly used. I suppose the British Mediterranean submarine campaign was a kind of commerce warfare, but not really. It was rather lucky that the Japanese 6th fleet had brilliant submarine operators, but stupid naval strategists, almost as stupid as the Japanese admirals who handled their surface fleet and naval air forces. --Not that when it came to the operational art, that the British knew what they were doing, either. ==================================================================================== After Force Z was destroyed and the British land army was isolated in Malaya; it became obvious to the Americans that navally, the British did not understand how the worldocean actually worked. THIS is what the Americasns really feared. And this is why Coral Sea was the decisive naval battle of WWII. The Americans and the Australians did not have to win Coral Sea, Kokoda Track, which they did at very high costs. What they had to do, was draw off the IJN and the Japanese Army west onto the USN and the Australians in New Guinea so as to give the British a breather in the Indian Ocean and Burma after the Japanese trounced the Royal Navy and British army so badly. ================================================================================= That is the real history. So what should the British have done if they followed Mahan and NOT Corbett? They should have planned a RAINBOW Warplan SUMMARY: The Americans worked on case studies that reflected the situation over time as it evolved. Note the DATE? 1934. It was late and it was often based on nebulous assumptions that could not be proven at the time of the case study or verified, but American army and navy officers expected a Germany, Italy and Japan, all at the same time, nightmare. They did not foresee Russian complicity into the Axis conspiracy, nor did they predict French collapse, but all four of the tyrannies operating together? This they planned against. Yeah, that happened. The naval components, Orange, Green and Black of Rainbow, rather much happened exactly as expected. So if you look at WWII after 1942, you see it fought the American way, not the British way or the Russian way. The Americans were the only one with a grand strategy... the only ones. And the operational art part of it? Mahan in the Pacific, Winfield Scott in the Atlantic. Blockade Japan and head for Mexico City er Berlin. There were "slight" adjustments. =================================================================== What could the British fictionally have done? Well they could have adjusted their hardware as new means and methods appeared or evolved. Better submarines and aircraft were going to be tools that the British could have used to make their South China Sea plan actually work. It was not that some British naval officers had not thought about the Italy / Japan / Germany naval combination, but Operation Judgment and the Anglo German Naval Treaty were not enough. If the British chose to sucker punch the Italians whilst preparing for a Jutland off Hainan Island, then the British should have evolved their aircraft carrier doctrine and left a submarine force in place to give the Backhouse plan for the Japanese contingency a reasonable chance. And they most certainly should have gotten Churchill drunk between inspirational speeches and kept him that way 1920 forward, because the man was a disaster when it came to actual operational planning. His timing for strategic operations was impeccably bad. His concepts for power projection were insane, and his estimates for what the British or even the Americans could do or would do were usually a magnitude order off.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 21, 2023 8:57:13 GMT
What about my favorite candidates for the worst naval operational artists and strategists of WWII, the Japanese? Were they as stupid as they appeared to be, or did they have any reason for why they made the insane decisions they did in the 1920s? CHART. Naval ranking just prior to WWI: How did "tiny little Japan" wind up as one of the three mightiest naval powers after WWI, and was thus able to sit down with Britain and the United States as a near peer? There were a combination of factors, but that long story can be boiled down to the Japanese piggybacking themselves first onto the French, then onto the British in the 1880s, and 1890s respectively. When the Japanese, like the Chinese could not produce modern steel ships of their own, they sent purchase missions to out into Europe and the United States and bought what they needed as export copies of European and American originals, then they turned around and used this hardware to beat up on Korea and China and made themselves "indispensable" as a counterweight to Russian ambition in the western Pacific to ... Great Britain. The deal was; "we'll supply the sailors and look out for your interests in Western Pacific waters as well as our own, so you can deal with the Germans." all we need is a fleet. The British BUILT that fleet. I did mention that the British were poor strategists? By the eve of WWI the Imperial Japanese Navy was a strange mélange of antiques from their 1880s and 1890s shopping sprees including captured or stolen Chinese navy ships, a lot of acquired Czarist navy junk from 1905 that they reflated or captured and "modernized" and the British supplied pre-dreadnought and British-assisted (Boy; were they British-assisted) dreadnought construction. They were only beginning to "roll their own" by around 1914. Every Japanese battleship and battlecruiser that made it through the Washington Naval Treaty was a direct product of the 1912 Eight Eight program. Much like the American Standards, the Japanese battle-line was a product of WWI construction without the added pressure of imminent naval battle and the need to conduct major naval operations that tended to both wear out ships and break human beings and equipment. Nor did the Japanese unlike the Americans have to commit to an enormous, essentially fruitless and wasteful ground war that achieved for them... nothing. The Japanese, while they enthusiastically participated as a British ally, paid little for an enormously strengthened geostrategic naval position in the real history as a result of WWI. They came to the 1922 talks with the eminent self belief that they had earned equality with the Anglo-Americans and should be treated to equivalence as an assumed right. Except, you have to put yourself in the mindsets of the diplomats and their naval advisors among the Anglo-Americans, or maybe I should restrict that just to the Americans, though I will comment on British thought where appropriate. The question of equivalence was a big issue for the Japanese, not only as a matter of "face" but as a matter of domestic political necessity. RACISM had been a problem for the Japanese ever since Mathew Perry humiliated them in 1853. They had been opened up like a can of sardines, not by a great power like Great Britain or France, but had been intimidated by rinky-dink third raters. To keep from suffering the century of shame as their next door neighbors, the Chinese Mainlanders suffered, the Japanese had to figure out how to out-foreign-devil the foreign-devils. (Literally, that was how they thought of the Euro-American outsiders. M.). They had to fight among themselves for a solution. By the time they figured it out, they lost a couple of critical decades. Thus they rounded up their best and brightest and they (Their government) decided, we cannot invent our way to parity internally, currently, so we will buy knowledge, tools, and expertise until we can make duplicate and or invent at home. For that we need money and so whatever it takes to buy, we pay out of the national budget. DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR? It is what the People's Republic of China does now. The Japanese navy was originally purchased, built abroad, to shield Japan from another Mathew C. Perry. It took one of every two yen the Japanese government could raise or float as loans for over a decade to build the Navy they used on the Chinese. The Japanese made the Chinese pay reparations after that war. Hey? Breakeven? The Chinese were clearly to Japan a source of soft revenue, sort of like India was for the British, a huge cash cow, that allowed a ridiculously mid-sized power to rule the world ocean and 1/4 of the world's arable land. In this belated discovery of how imperialism supposedly worked, the Japanese sidled up to the British as previously mentioned and allied themselves. The British accepted the "friendly offer" and the Japanese went into business inside China and started imperializing with the best of them. Except there was Russia. Now whatever contempt I have for Czarist Russia, it must be pointed out in 1898, that if there was a state that could overtake and overthrow the British Empire, it was not France, who had reluctantly decided to play permanent second fiddle in the game of empires, nor was it Germany who did not have the overall naval geography to be a serious global threat, yet. It was Russia. The idiot, Nicholas II, had cast his greedy autocrat eyes on the same slice of prime Chinese real estate, where Japan set up housekeeping. Manchuria and by Extension KOREA. The Japanese were in panic mode, especially after the Russians bought themselves a navy five times their own in size and parked enough of it in the SEA OF JAPAN to make it clear that after northeast China, Japan was on the Bear's menu. The British allies were asked for a navy. The British looked at the situation, and thought about it. Russia in Manchuria was not a good thing, and war is expensive, and based on recent past history, ""Lets you and him fight; and we will sell you the means and make profits." seemed to work out well for the UK, since the British got all the money-money and the warring parties got smashed up. So the British built and sold the Japanese a navy that DOUBLED the Japanese military power, and the Russians went ahead and behaved like Russians. The Japanese fought against 2 to 1 (odds) at sea and 3 to 2 odds on land, but these were Russians, and the Japanese REAMED them. It was a near run and near ruin thing. 2 out of every 3 taxed yen went to pay for the Japanese navy. Japan was BROKE. Russia was not in a position to pay much reparations, but they had been kicked out of Manchuria. The Japanese put the squeeze on that part of China. Breakeven? Barely. But there was national survival, and national pride. The Japanese had beaten one of the European Foreign Devils. They were EQUAL. And then comes WWI and the Japanese do their dutiful Entente thing and the Italians float the racial equality clause for the League of Nations and the JAPANESE sign on, because well you know, the Japanese had just beaten their share of Germans like a base drum in the Pacific, and they were practically equal right? Fair is imperialist fair, British and Americans. We played the game just like you did. I suppose the Japanese knew what to expect from Woodrow Wilson. They were not disabused nor ignorant as to what just kind of scum he was, or how racist American society as a whole was to people of color. But they expected better from the "cosmopolitan British" who had talked to them and treated with them like a fellow nation state during WWI, or so the Japanese thought. How did that work out? The British behaved just like the Americans. EXACTLY like the Americans at Versailles. So come the Washington Naval Treaty talks. The Japanese went in, not expecting tonnage or numerical parity with the Anglo-Americans, but they sure intended to be first among the seconds, not equals with France and Italy, who were 1 step down in the hierarchy of racism as believed by the reprehensible Social Darwinist Americans and British who called that a science in those days. No way were the Japanese going to be naval equals to those "second raters". There was once a "3/5th" of a human being clause in the United States Constitution for purposes of electoral representation by population. In the Washington Naval Treaty, the Japanese fought tooth and diplomatic nail for a 7/10th clause. They got 6.6 or thereabouts. It was not just a matter of "military defensive necessity" for them. It was a matter of "face". Self-respect. They were willing to compromise that much without too much argument. They fought hard at the diplomatic table for that. It was a DEMOCRATIC government in Tokyo that negotiated their part of the 1922 treaty, or at least as democratic as the British and American governments of the era. Their negotiators went back with 6.6 overall, and it started a political firestorm that did not die out until MacArthur stepped ashore in 1945 into Japan. The Japanese government, democratic mind you, might have taken that 7/10 clause and said to the hard pressed Japanese taxpayer, we have 7/10, but for budget reasons and as good international neighbors we will allow ourselves 5.75/10. This was proposed as a part of the domestic agenda by the liberals if the negotiators had gotten the treaty they wanted. They did not. So instead of 30% of the national budget going to the navy, it shot up to 55% and stayed there. Modernization and testing and training, research and technical innovation to the limit, plus whatever help the Japanese could beg borrow or scrounge from the British and secretly from the Germans; they poured out their national wealth to build implement and acquire. They had done this before and humiliated a European power. They had faced long odds then and beaten the Russians. They thought the Americans and the British were no different. That was the reasoning in the real history and in this fictional one.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
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Post by miletus12 on May 22, 2023 9:07:50 GMT
Italy... Sometimes you have to feel sorry for poor Italy. They went into WWI with a small, but technically good navy oriented toward their two principle national threats, France and Austria-Hungary> Now that was a weird manure sandwich. When Italy unified, her politicians had to do a Cossack saber dance with France to get them to help her throw out the Austro-Hungarians. It was a curious period in which Italian regionalism hampered their army on land and their so-called navy, as they tried to stand up as a nation state. That is not how you want to start your naval tradition, folks. In summary, Tegethoff knew his adversary's fatal flaw. They were in a recently purchased largely foreign built rent-a-fleet, commanded by two jealous idiots who hated each other more than they hated the Austrians (Italian regionalisms.). He waited for the two Italian admirals to refuse to cooperate with each other in the pre-battle set-up, and then he beat the numerically and technically superior Italian ships, a piece / ship at a time. It was EASY. The rest of the world looked at this fiasco and concluded the Italians were clowns. It is hard to shake a first impression. But if you look closely, you see the Italians do have some things that should have gone well for them. They had some fine engineers, shipwrights and scientists. Heck, they invented radio, the torpedo and the theory and practice of air power. But you know something?
If your politicians are stupid and your military high command is riven by jealousies and incompetence and you, as a nation, supposedly the home of Machiavelli, operate as naively as Italy did in WWI, you wind up with this: The only nations that made bigger obvious sets of immediate post WWI mistakes were Germany, Russia and the United States. Incidentally, the Number 1 on the hat stands for Number 1 ... idiot. ===================================================== For all that the rest of WWI did not go well for Italy, their navy had a good war. The Austrians mounted a few coastal raids, but the Italians sorted themselves out and put an end to that nonsense in the most expeditious and efficient manner they could devise. So, the Regia Marina learned asymmetry and how to employ it against a tradition minded adversary. Things were looking up?The Italians even had good negotiators at Washington who kept it simple and direct and did not budge off instructions. "Whatever the French get, we want equal." They were the only ones who did not cave in and compromise. ====================================================== What went wrong? Politics. First, while Douhet was Italian, and he espoused strategic bombing, the seaplane crowd in the Regia Marina who should have yelled, "whoa there, son, we have combat experience about how air power works", did not have a Moffett to make their naval aviation case. Second; the Escercito called the military shots, not the Regia Marina. Otherwise, some saner admirals in the Supreme Council would have educated Idiot Number One about the little problem called the British Navy. Third: as would be proved on land and in the air, bad timing, politically motivated crony favoritism decisions, combined with the lack of an industrial base and manufacturing expertise in key technologies would negate EXCELLENT Italian engineering concepts and theories. The second best torpedoes on earth do not mean a thing if the riveted leaky submarines do not have snorts, and are about as noisy as a German U-boat in a sea where noise carries twice as efficiently as it does in the North Atlantic. Add to that debacle that right on miss-schedule, Benny the Moose decrees all war material will be modernized exactly when WWII starts and then when his admirals and generals tell him TO SIT OUT THE WAR, he plunges Italy in war right in the middle of the re-equipment that started in 1938 and was not slated to be completed until 1943. Shakes head. The 1922 Italians made a national leadership change that neutered all the good work their negotiators at the 1922 WNT did. Maybe they should have stuck with Facta or maybe Facta should have manned up, put Victor Emanuell on a temporary vacation for deniability, while he sent the Esercito to Isonzo Idiot Number One?
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