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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 8:34:36 GMT
The circumstances of looking at downtime ship positions as of the PoD has had an interesting result:
- Queen Elizabeth gets transported to an empty drydock in Portsmouth
- Nelson goes from Greenock to somewhere in the Irish Sea
- Barham goes from Liverpool to the Solent
- Valiant and Repulse are placed off the east coast of Scotland
- Illustrious is working up off Portsmouth
- Furious and Devonshire were setting off with 18 million pounds in gold for Canada
- The downtime Home Fleet therefore comes to: 2 CV, 3 BC and 4 BB, plus QE not yet completed her refit
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 26, 2023 8:48:03 GMT
The circumstances of looking at downtime ship positions as of the PoD has had an interesting result: - Queen Elizabeth gets transported to an empty drydock in Portsmouth - Nelson goes from Greenock to somewhere in the Irish Sea - Barham goes from Liverpool to the Solent - Valiant and Repulse are placed off the east coast of Scotland - Illustrious is working up off Portsmouth - Furious and Devonshire were setting off with 18 million pounds in gold for Canada - The downtime Home Fleet therefore comes to: 2 CV, 3 BC and 4 BB, plus QE not yet completed her refit Is it worth for the DE Royal Navy to upgrade any Downtime Royal navy ship. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 9:06:22 GMT
Not the battleships, destroyers (too small), submarines or carriers. The large light cruisers are reasonable, but not necessary; same for the Counties. In the immediate term, they will be used, at least until the return of the Grand Fleet rebalances the relative strength of various fleets and commands. After the Italian situation is resolved quickly, there will be a movement of some ships back out to the Far East to replace the small matter of ten 18” battleships. Considering the lengths the IJN went to in order to conceal the nature of the Yamatos, it is probable that someone will blow a head gasket when the new reality sinks in.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 26, 2023 9:08:40 GMT
Considering the lengths the IJN went to in order to conceal the nature of the Yamatos, it is probable that someone will blow a head gasket when the new reality sinks in. So how big would the OTL Yamato be compared to the oldest DE Royal Navy battleship. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 9:30:11 GMT
Yamato: 65,000t, 862ft x 127ft x 36ft, 9 x 18.1”/45, 12 x 6.1”, 12 x 5”, 24 x 25mm, 4 x 13.2mm, 16.1” belt, 8-8.9” deck, 27kts
Queen Elizabeth: 54,000t, 850ft x 120ft x 34ft, 8 x 18”/50, 24 x 5.25”, 48 x 40mm, 64 x 25mm, 14” angled belt, 6.25” deck, 28kts
Yamato has better protection, but Queen Elizabeth have the advantage of speed, AAA, RDF and fire control and better shells. The other advantage of the British ship is that she has 4 sister ships at Singapore with her, along with 5 of the larger R class vessels.
The next jump up is present at Alexandria with the Nelson class battleships Anson and Howe.
They are 85,000t, 960ft x 132ft x 35ft, 8 x 20”/50, 24 x 5.25”, 24 x 3.75”, 64 x 40mm, 96 x 25mm, 18” angled belt, 8” deck, 30kts.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 26, 2023 11:21:17 GMT
Yamato: 65,000t, 862ft x 127ft x 36ft, 9 x 18.1”/45, 12 x 6.1”, 12 x 5”, 24 x 25mm, 4 x 13.2mm, 16.1” belt, 8-8.9” deck, 27kts Queen Elizabeth: 54,000t, 850ft x 120ft x 34ft, 8 x 18”/50, 24 x 5.25”, 48 x 40mm, 64 x 25mm, 14” angled belt, 6.25” deck, 28kts Yamato has better protection, but Queen Elizabeth have the advantage of speed, AAA, RDF and fire control and better shells. The other advantage of the British ship is that she has 4 sister ships at Singapore with her, along with 5 of the larger R class vessels. The next jump up is present at Alexandria with the Nelson class battleships Anson and Howe. They are 85,000t, 960ft x 132ft x 35ft, 8 x 20”/50, 24 x 5.25”, 24 x 3.75”, 64 x 40mm, 96 x 25mm, 18” angled belt, 8” deck, 30kts. Four Queen Elizabeths at Singapore, when the Japanese get their first photos of them, they think, these are not the Queen Elizabeths we now, they are 20,000 tons more, if i am correct. When the United States finds out that the DE Royal Navy battleships outgun and out weigh even their Iowa-class their building, i assume they think, we need to go bigger as well. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 11:45:41 GMT
5 QEs and 5 Rs. They will be obviously different and the British will be supplying the (edited) photographs in newspapers.
The USN has 7 battleships building - North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota, Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama and Iowa. All are smaller than the RNs 21 18" third line battleships and battlecruisers, as well as their 10 20" second line battleships. The issue will be the 37 RN and Commonwealth first line battleships of over 120,000 tons and 24” guns.
The balance has been reset to the early 1900s pre-Dreadnought in some ways, or far, far worse:
RN: 68 (+ 14 downtime ships)
USN: 15 + 7
IJN: 10 + 2
MN: 8 (+ 2)
RM: 6 (+ 2)
USSR: 3 + 5
KM: 2
Spain: 2
Argentina: 2
Brazil: 2
Chile: 1
@ 1900 in comparison:
RN: 25 + 23
MN: 9 + 2
HSF: 6 + 8
USN: 6 + 6
IRN: 5 + 9
IJN: 4 + 1
RM: 2 + 2
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 26, 2023 13:31:05 GMT
Not the battleships, destroyers (too small), submarines or carriers. The large light cruisers are reasonable, but not necessary; same for the Counties. In the immediate term, they will be used, at least until the return of the Grand Fleet rebalances the relative strength of various fleets and commands. After the Italian situation is resolved quickly, there will be a movement of some ships back out to the Far East to replace the small matter of ten 18” battleships. Considering the lengths the IJN went to in order to conceal the nature of the Yamatos, it is probable that someone will blow a head gasket when the new reality sinks in.
Not only that but DE UK is unlikely to have many suitable replacement parts or munitions say for the much smaller and weaker OTL RN ships. Albeit that a destroyers might still be useful as given this is OTL Earth range isn't as big an issue. However unless the DE ships are massively more manpower heavy, which they could be because of their size, the OTL ones are likely to be retired or passed down to allies/friends fairly quickly once the initial crisis is over.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 26, 2023 13:36:33 GMT
5 QEs and 5 Rs. They will be obviously different and the British will be supplying the (edited) photographs in newspapers. The USN has 7 battleships building - North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota, Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama and Iowa. All are smaller than the RNs 21 18" third line battleships and battlecruisers, as well as their 10 20" second line battleships. The issue will be the 37 RN and Commonwealth first line battleships of over 120,000 tons and 24” guns. The balance has been reset to the early 1900s pre-Dreadnought in some ways, or far, far worse: RN: 68 (+ 14 downtime ships) USN: 15 + 7 IJN: 10 + 2 MN: 8 (+ 2) RM: 6 (+ 2) USSR: 3 + 5 KM: 2 Spain: 2 Argentina: 2 Brazil: 2 Chile: 1 @ 1900 in comparison: RN: 25 + 23 MN: 9 + 2 HSF: 6 + 8 USN: 6 + 6 IRN: 5 + 9 IJN: 4 + 1 RM: 2 + 2
Ouch! I'd forgotten how OTT the DE RN was compared to anything OTL. Could have some issues with the dominion/colonial operated units as I doubt any OTL equivalents will have the will and capacity to maintain them.
Also going to be a lot of issues with people who have lost their homes and families. 
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 26, 2023 13:42:43 GMT
How exactly do they blockade the Suez Canal? Do consider that there is still the downtime RN Mediterranean Fleet at Alexandria, as outlined at the beginning of the thread, plus the British Army and RAF, plus the DE Mediterranean Fleet. DE September 1943 Mediterranean Fleet: 1 CV, 4 CVL, 5 BB, 7 CA, 16 CL, 56 DD... 1 CV: Glorious 4 CVL Colossus, Sans Pareil, Hawkins, Raleigh 5 BB: Anson, Howe, HMSAS South Africa, HMSAS Good Hope, HMIS India 7 CA 16 CL 56 DD 40 FF (24 RN) 39 CR 32 SL (20 RN, 4 RCN, 4 RSAN, 4 RIN) Downtime Mediterranean Fleet: 1 CV, 4 BB, 9 CL, 24 DD, 8 SS Warspite BB, Malaya BB, Ramillies BB, Royal Sovereign BB, Eagle CV, Liverpool CL, Gloucester CL, Neptune CL, Caledon CL, Capetown CL, Calypso CL, Mohawk DD, Hasty DD, Ilex DD, Janus DD, Juno DD, Nubian DD, Diamond DD, Havock DD, Hyperion DD, Hero DD, Hereward DD, Hostile DD, Imperial DD Hobart CL, Leander CL, Carlisle CLAA at Aden Kandahar DD, Khartoum DD, Kimberley DD, Kingston DD in Red Sea Sydney CL, Orion CL sweeping off Benghazi Voyager DD, Stuart DD, Vampire DD, Waterhen DD, Decoy DD, Dainty DD ASW off Alexandria Vendetta DD, Otus SS, Olympus SS in Malta Rorqual SS, Orpheus SS, Oswald SS, Grampus SS, Parthian SS, Pandora SS, Proteus SS
Even with only the OTL RN forces an Italian blockade attempt would be impossible. Their nearest base is Rhodes which is some distance away and they will have no real air support so any attempt at such an operation will to whittled down pretty quickly even if not simply crushed.
Mussolini might be desperate enough to send the fleet out to 'defend the homeland' for a clash somewhere SE of Sicily but if the Italian navy has gained enough information to realise how suicidal such an operation would be they might be less than willing to die for the great leader. Or on top of everything else that will have happened by that time it could be the final straw that leads Mussolini to be called in for a meeting with the monarch and finding out he's being redeployed to a dungeon somewhere.
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 13:44:52 GMT
Not the battleships, destroyers (too small), submarines or carriers. The large light cruisers are reasonable, but not necessary; same for the Counties. In the immediate term, they will be used, at least until the return of the Grand Fleet rebalances the relative strength of various fleets and commands. After the Italian situation is resolved quickly, there will be a movement of some ships back out to the Far East to replace the small matter of ten 18” battleships. Considering the lengths the IJN went to in order to conceal the nature of the Yamatos, it is probable that someone will blow a head gasket when the new reality sinks in. Not only that but DE UK is unlikely to have many suitable replacement parts or munitions say for the much smaller and weaker OTL RN ships.
Albeit that a destroyers might still be useful as given this is OTL Earth range isn't as big an issue.
However unless the DE ships are massively more manpower heavy, which they could be because of their size,the OTL ones are likely to be retired or passed down to allies/friends fairly quickly once the initial crisis is over.
Steve, 1.) Correct. No need to maintain 15" ships or even the few 7.5" when there are a lot of better ones. 2.) The destroyers will stick around longer, comparatively, but are still outmatched by new construction. 3.) They are not greatly so, but there is an appreciable difference. 4.) The OTL cruisers and destroyers will certainly get sold off to friendly nations. The battleships? They are a bit old, with the exception of Nelrod and Rodnol; there is going to be a curious incident of certain vessels under construction popping up for a few days. South America will have some different fleets postwar. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 13:48:00 GMT
5 QEs and 5 Rs. They will be obviously different and the British will be supplying the (edited) photographs in newspapers. The USN has 7 battleships building - North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota, Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama and Iowa. All are smaller than the RNs 21 18" third line battleships and battlecruisers, as well as their 10 20" second line battleships. The issue will be the 37 RN and Commonwealth first line battleships of over 120,000 tons and 24” guns. The balance has been reset to the early 1900s pre-Dreadnought in some ways, or far, far worse: RN: 68 (+ 14 downtime ships) USN: 15 + 7 IJN: 10 + 2 MN: 8 (+ 2) RM: 6 (+ 2) USSR: 3 + 5 KM: 2 Spain: 2 Argentina: 2 Brazil: 2 Chile: 1 @ 1900 in comparison: RN: 25 + 23 MN: 9 + 2 HSF: 6 + 8 USN: 6 + 6 IRN: 5 + 9 IJN: 4 + 1 RM: 2 + 2
Ouch! I'd forgotten how OTT the DE RN was compared to anything OTL. Could have some issues with the dominion/colonial operated units as I doubt any OTL equivalents will have the will and capacity to maintain them.
Also going to be a lot of issues with people who have lost their homes and families.
Not so much over the top as based on much larger opponents as well as coming from a larger starting base. We are very accustomed to the post WNT "15 capital ships cap" put in place in @, when even as late as 1932, there were over 20, not to mention active plans for building up to a fleet of ~25. Absolutely right on the smaller Dominion navies (and those whose nations no longer exist!), but the likes of Australia, Canada and India are going to grow up fast. South Africa will be an interesting case. The human element always matters. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 13:49:19 GMT
How exactly do they blockade the Suez Canal? Do consider that there is still the downtime RN Mediterranean Fleet at Alexandria, as outlined at the beginning of the thread, plus the British Army and RAF, plus the DE Mediterranean Fleet. DE September 1943 Mediterranean Fleet: 1 CV, 4 CVL, 5 BB, 7 CA, 16 CL, 56 DD... 1 CV: Glorious 4 CVL Colossus, Sans Pareil, Hawkins, Raleigh 5 BB: Anson, Howe, HMSAS South Africa, HMSAS Good Hope, HMIS India 7 CA 16 CL 56 DD 40 FF (24 RN) 39 CR 32 SL (20 RN, 4 RCN, 4 RSAN, 4 RIN) Downtime Mediterranean Fleet: 1 CV, 4 BB, 9 CL, 24 DD, 8 SS Warspite BB, Malaya BB, Ramillies BB, Royal Sovereign BB, Eagle CV, Liverpool CL, Gloucester CL, Neptune CL, Caledon CL, Capetown CL, Calypso CL, Mohawk DD, Hasty DD, Ilex DD, Janus DD, Juno DD, Nubian DD, Diamond DD, Havock DD, Hyperion DD, Hero DD, Hereward DD, Hostile DD, Imperial DD Hobart CL, Leander CL, Carlisle CLAA at Aden Kandahar DD, Khartoum DD, Kimberley DD, Kingston DD in Red Sea Sydney CL, Orion CL sweeping off Benghazi Voyager DD, Stuart DD, Vampire DD, Waterhen DD, Decoy DD, Dainty DD ASW off Alexandria Vendetta DD, Otus SS, Olympus SS in Malta Rorqual SS, Orpheus SS, Oswald SS, Grampus SS, Parthian SS, Pandora SS, Proteus SS
Even with only the OTL RN forces an Italian blockade attempt would be impossible. Their nearest base is Rhodes which is some distance away and they will have no real air support so any attempt at such an operation will to whittled down pretty quickly even if not simply crushed.
Mussolini might be desperate enough to send the fleet out to 'defend the homeland' for a clash somewhere SE of Sicily but if the Italian navy has gained enough information to realise how suicidal such an operation would be they might be less than willing to die for the great leader. Or on top of everything else that will have happened by that time it could be the final straw that leads Mussolini to be called in for a meeting with the monarch and finding out he's being redeployed to a dungeon somewhere.
1.) An eminently correct summary. 2.) Entirely possible, but I won't pre-empt future developments or give the game away... |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 26, 2023 14:02:09 GMT
Ouch! I'd forgotten how OTT the DE RN was compared to anything OTL. Could have some issues with the dominion/colonial operated units as I doubt any OTL equivalents will have the will and capacity to maintain them.
Also going to be a lot of issues with people who have lost their homes and families.
Not so much over the top as based on much larger opponents as well as coming from a larger starting base. We are very accustomed to the post WNT "15 capital ships cap" put in place in @, when even as late as 1932, there were over 20, not to mention active plans for building up to a fleet of ~25. Absolutely right on the smaller Dominion navies (and those whose nations no longer exist!), but the likes of Australia, Canada and India are going to grow up fast. South Africa will be an interesting case. The human element always matters.
Simon
I did say compared to OTL Earth. Even if say WWI had ended earlier and no WNT had occurred I doubt that ships would get to the size of the 120,000 ton and 20"+ guns simply from practical physical limits, let alone economical and human ones.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 15:05:22 GMT
Steve,
A reasonable supposition. You may have seen the graph pointing towards battleship displacement over time that extrapolated/indicated that without Washington, ships around the size of Yamato were nominally on the cards by the mid 1930s. To get bigger than that, we need to add high speed to armour and gun power, which gives us the very big versions of the Lions and Montana. The heavier guns is a Dark Earth touch, but one discussed before.
Simon
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