|
Post by diamondstorm on Mar 30, 2023 17:46:10 GMT
Okay. So I looked at the online version of Land Half Won and it appears that potential interest in New Zealand and the Norfolk Island for pine and flax dates to 1774. I will concede that part. However, that was merely interest and France also had interest in the area as they claimed the west coast of Australia in 1772. Perhaps without the American Revolution there would be a bigger French focus on building up a bigger navy to enforce those claims. Australia was not much of a priority for British colonization and settlement until 1779 after the Thirteen Colonies/United States banned convict importation from Britain and the British started looking at alternate locations to send them. Potential in crops like sugar, cotton, tobacco, hemp, and flax only became a large part of the equation in 1783. In the grand scheme of things, while I can see Australia being colonized in part or totally by the British, settlement would probably start later, possibly at the time they started settling New Zealand IOTL (circa 1840 or so).
|
|
|
Post by diamondstorm on Apr 9, 2023 17:44:33 GMT
The North American/American bias comes through strongly in that idea. Britain never focused solely on North America - what of India? It also ignores the China trade, which as I said was a significant point in the settlement of Australia. The Dutch? The freaking Dutch? They weren't in any condition for major expansion or colonisation at that point, being a declining minor power. If France somehow beats Britain to the bell with regard to Australia, and that is an extremely tenuous and fraught assumption, then it simply loses it in the next war. This was a prize that wasn't simply going to be given up because of somehow getting distracted looking for a lost handkerchief. The entire scenario is based on a false assumption - that the whole purpose of the colonisation of Australia was based on the convict issue. Cook's voyage took place before the American Revolution; the strategic utility of Port Jackson/Sydney Harbour was identified and known. See MAP. Comparison India Comparison North America During the age of colonial imperialist aggressions, Britain, France, the Netherlands, Portugal and Spain used the semi-rigged and full rigged sailing ships to explore spice routes to eastern Asia. They fought and squabbled on the world ocean and exported their local societal troubles onto the rest of the planet. Depending on how shrewd the aggressors were and how resistant the local inhabitants were or became, the colonial imperialist aggressors imposed rule or settled into discovered new lands. They used navigatable rivers to make inward encroachments on the local human inhabitants. In the case of India, the land was pre-settled and fractured into political subdivisions. It was possible for the British to nibble the region one piece at a time pitting one Indian state against another Indian state and thus establish an "empire" via technological superiority, political gamesmanship, and DUMB luck. This was seen previously in history. It was how Rome established her empire in the Mediterranean basin. The method only works when another polity is weak and disorganized and the distances and resources and means expended are not cost prohibitive and the climate is "friendly" to trekking on foot or afloat on the rivers. In the case of North America, the climate was friendly, the rivers plentiful, the local peoples were hunter gatherer proto-agriculture stage above the Rio Grande River and there were very few of the local inhabitants. YET the British stayed fairly close to the seacoasts in the east. It was left to Americans, after we threw the British out, to carry on the continental settlement across the midband latitudes. Gold in California and internal American politics shaped that drive. There was no British incentive and they did not endeavor. Notice that factor in how sparsely and unevenly and poorly Canada was settled, even though it remained a part of the "empire". Outside the Saint Lawrence River Valley, the internal communications by river and trek was hindered by harsh climate. The coasts, reachable by ship were settled; but down to the present, the interior might as well be considered "underpopulated". As an aside, the United States exhibits the same coastal population concentrations and an underpopulated interior; but we still have dense populations in our great plains compared to Canada. Rivers and trek friendly terrain plus WEATHER accounts for that outcome. Look at Australia. Climate indicates coastal settlements and the hunter gatherer stage local inhabitants indicates colonial settlement rather than imposed rule on a local polity by a foreign imperialist aggressor. The location of Australia that far south off the spice routes, its horrible interior climate, lack of easy rivers and gentle climate for trekking all combined to render it almost last by default for European aggressors to find and settle. The British took one look at it, at first, and decided it was a place "fit for convicts". The French actually looked at it and settled for strip mining New Caledonia instead. The "convicts" and later settlers built themselves a country anyway. Their settlement pattern followed the geophysical access and climate realities, which as a sidebar is WHY the Allies *(ANZACs Americans) in WWII battered their way through New Guinea and moved through the Philippines rather from India and the Malayan straits, or through the eastern half of Dutch held Indonesia. By ship, by railroad logistics and supplied local industry and agriculture and by climate, eastern Australia was the only way to go. You do know that a south to north railroad and paved road to DARWIN from Alice Springs was a postwar endeavor? That is how tough the interior of Australia was and is to cross. Only necessity compels lazy humans to do "difficult" things like that. The climate issue is a good point that I haven't considered. I personally think that if Britain didn't arrive to settle in Australia when it did, I think it's perhaps most plausible that the Spanish colonize the interior due to being more used to a desert-like climate (the Tabernas Desert in Spain) or an analogue to the Mormons who could've perhaps adapted to the desert and figure out a why to irrigate the land and grow crops. Perhaps along the northern coastline the Dutch would colonize it since the Dutch East Indies were right there and it could very well be considered an extension of that.
|
|
|
Post by diamondstorm on Apr 14, 2023 20:45:32 GMT
So if British Empire focus on there American Colonies instead Australia Who will take it ? the Dutch ? nope their interested in trade Post and they got Indonesia, why to bother with that Australia ? France were interested in Colonise Australia but French Kingdom was edge of bankruptcy, The French Empire under Napoleon had similar plans but had issue with British Empire. So left the British who need resupply harbour in that part of World, Sydney bay would perfect. But that is all, a harbour with docks and small settlement. Although this here would be nightmare scenario: in 1830s Leopold I claim Australia as Belgium Colony... Well Belgium did try to purchase Cuba so anything is possible here and imagine if Leopold II got a hold of it during OTL's Scramble for Africa...that would be nightmarish indeed.
|
|
michelvan
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 488
Likes: 804
|
Post by michelvan on Apr 14, 2023 20:58:47 GMT
Well Belgium did try to purchase Cuba so anything is possible here and imagine if Leopold II got a hold of it during OTL's Scramble for Africa...that would be nightmarish indeed. The Belgium had several attempt Guatemala Texas Kingdom of Hawaii West Afrika at Ghana Tianjin Concession in china Leopold I was almost desperate to get Colony his son Leopold II was more deceitful and manage the great powers play off against each other, to get Congo as PRIVATE PROPERTY ! But with Australia not colonised by Britain or France, there is high chance that Leopold I & II try to get it there hands oh god what idea for TL Austalia Belgica
|
|
SinghSong
Petty Officer 2nd Class
Posts: 44
Likes: 51
|
Post by SinghSong on May 8, 2023 22:09:18 GMT
Of course, considering just how large Australia is geographically, and how much coastline it has, there's another distinct possibility that no-one's so much as entertained yet, but which represents one of the most plausible and likely outcomes IMHO. Namely, that without the British ever colonizing Australia, it remains uncolonized ITTL until the late 1800's, with its eventual colonization thus ultimately more closely resembling that of OTL's 'Scramble For Africa' (and OTL's colonizations of Melanesia and Polynesia, for that matter). In other words, with a whole myriad of European would-be Colonial Powers embarking on a race to claim various sections of Australia for themselves (predominantly for prestige purposes and bragging rights, with few if any of these Australian colonial territories actually turning a profit, and a bunch of them being bought and sold along the way), leading to an eventual treaty agreement to partition it between them along stipulated arbitrary lines, but with relatively little actual colonization taking place across much of it on account of its 'inhospitable climate'.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on May 9, 2023 14:23:37 GMT
Of course, considering just how large Australia is geographically, and how much coastline it has, there's another distinct possibility that no-one's so much as entertained yet, but which represents one of the most plausible and likely outcomes IMHO. Namely, that without the British ever colonizing Australia, it remains uncolonized ITTL until the late 1800's, with its eventual colonization thus ultimately more closely resembling that of OTL's 'Scramble For Africa' (and OTL's colonizations of Melanesia and Polynesia, for that matter). In other words, with a whole myriad of European would-be Colonial Powers embarking on a race to claim various sections of Australia for themselves (predominantly for prestige purposes and bragging rights, with few if any of these Australian colonial territories actually turning a profit, and a bunch of them being bought and sold along the way), leading to an eventual treaty agreement to partition it between them along stipulated arbitrary lines, but with relatively little actual colonization taking place across much of it on account of its 'inhospitable climate'.
That's definitely a possibility. Although I think its likely to be before then, However if that late you might also see US attempts to establish colonies in the region.
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on May 9, 2023 16:07:52 GMT
It is a possibility, but so very distant from anything reasonable or historically based as to be dismissed. It is more likely that China and Japan gets invaded successfully by Spanish conquistadors - no real chance.
The same era saw exploration of the South Pacific and increasing contacts with the Maori in New Zealand, leading to settlement there.
A Scramble for Australia? There isn't the same level of resources, available land or attractive territory and, not to put too fine a point on it, the continent had been claimed through Cook's action in 1770.
Coastline length means not much at all. The available realistic colony sites are Port Philip Bay, Sydney Harbour, Adelaide, Brisbane/Moreton Bay and the Swan River/Perth. The first four are on the eastern seaboard 'curve' and aren't suited to multiple occupants. Perth and WA are the outliers (as they are today), but aren't really sustainable in the long term in their own right until after the epoch of colonisation. It is more than just looking at a general map, but rather digging deeper and seeing why certain areas were settled, at what pace and with what obstacles.
There needs to be a reason, a logical reason, as to why Britain abandons its long established interests in the region, which have previously been outlined, and just goes off elsewhere for a few decades. If we are just piling multiple PoDs atop each other, then we create a Jenga Tower wrought of blocks of unset jelly - no basis for an in depth examination.
|
|
SinghSong
Petty Officer 2nd Class
Posts: 44
Likes: 51
|
Post by SinghSong on May 9, 2023 23:44:47 GMT
It is a possibility, but so very distant from anything reasonable or historically based as to be dismissed. It is more likely that China and Japan gets invaded successfully by Spanish conquistadors - no real chance. The same era saw exploration of the South Pacific and increasing contacts with the Maori in New Zealand, leading to settlement there. A Scramble for Australia? There isn't the same level of resources, available land or attractive territory and, not to put too fine a point on it, the continent had been claimed through Cook's action in 1770. Coastline length means not much at all. The available realistic colony sites are Port Philip Bay, Sydney Harbour, Adelaide, Brisbane/Moreton Bay and the Swan River/Perth. The first four are on the eastern seaboard 'curve' and aren't suited to multiple occupants. Perth and WA are the outliers (as they are today), but aren't really sustainable in the long term in their own right until after the epoch of colonisation. It is more than just looking at a general map, but rather digging deeper and seeing why certain areas were settled, at what pace and with what obstacles. There needs to be a reason, a logical reason, as to why Britain abandons its long established interests in the region, which have previously been outlined, and just goes off elsewhere for a few decades. If we are just piling multiple PoDs atop each other, then we create a Jenga Tower wrought of blocks of unset jelly - no basis for an in depth examination. The Scramble For Africa wasn't motivated by any of those things, though; not by Africa's level of resources, available land or attractive territory. It was simply motivated by wealthy people in the colonial powers looking at the world map, looking at the parts of it which no other Colonial 'Great Powers'/'Empires' had claimed for themselves yet, and proclaiming that "yes, we should claim this land for ourselves, for the greater glory of our empire and to expand its borders!" Coastline length means plenty, since there are a bunch of other realistic colony sites in the north, east and west which never really got developed IOTL, since they were attempted multiple times early on only to fail, mostly to malaria outbreaks and suchlike. But if Australia's only being colonized a century or so later on, when anti-malarial agents like quinine are well-known and widely utilized, then why shouldn't these colony sites in regions like the Tiwi Islands, Trinity Bay, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnhem_Land and the en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Country have marginally better chances of successfully enduring (at least, in a manner akin to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madang)?And how exactly is it that you can say "A Scramble for Australia? There isn't the same level of resources, available land or attractive territory"- going on and on about how worthless it is and how no-one could possibly be interested- whilst still demanding that "There needs to be a reason, a logical reason, as to why Britain abandons its long established interests in the region, which have previously been outlined, and just goes off elsewhere for a few decades". Rather than IOTL, where "not to put too fine a point on it, the continent had been claimed through Cook's action in 1770", is it really so inconceivable that an ATL could exist in which said action by Cook had never taken place, and thus said British interests in the region had never been established to begin with?
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on May 10, 2023 1:41:44 GMT
Working from the bottom up:
1.) That is a completely different topic and proposal to this thread.
2.) Britain had pre-existing interests in the area, including but not limited to the China trade, preventing French expansion, securing one of the best natural harbours in the world and grabbing specifically attractive strategic materials. The non Anglo-French parties to the Scramble for Africa were either not yet countries (Germany, Belgium and Italy), or not in the colonial expansion phase (Spain and Portugal). There is a stark difference.
3.) Here is where your ignorance of the facts on the ground betrays you. Even with anti malarial drugs, there are no realistic grounds for settler colonies in the likes of Arnhem Land and the Tiwi Islands. Their problems include weather, climate, potable water supply, soils, unsuitability for cropping, wildlife and terrain. As said, there is more to it than just looking at a map, or even looking at the location of modern cities such as Cairns. Australia is not replete with friendly, open areas for colonisation outside of the SE seaboard.
4.) That is a gross oversimplification and inaccurate rendering of the facts.
|
|
|
Post by Max Sinister on May 10, 2023 16:41:58 GMT
Western Australia might be a viable colony, as long as they have the bit in the South where it's possible to grow wheat.
|
|
|
Post by diamondstorm on May 11, 2023 4:07:01 GMT
Western Australia might be a viable colony, as long as they have the bit in the South where it's possible to grow wheat. I think the Swan River Valley was where the Swedish were planning their colony before plans for cancelled. I can imagine it actually being somewhat viable due to the ability to grow wheat and grapes for wine.
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on May 11, 2023 10:59:53 GMT
|
|
|
Post by diamondstorm on May 18, 2023 0:06:39 GMT
You make a good point about the Swedish here. That said, I still think Australia could've been a free for all among the European powers had Australia not settled there on schedule. Not to say Britain still couldn't have a stake in it, just delayed and allowing other European powers to partition parts of it for themselves.
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on May 18, 2023 1:04:49 GMT
I don’t, on the basis of real colonisation patterns, national wealth and other preoccupations in the first half of the 19th century. Getting out to Australia pre-steamship takes a bloody long time.
Just because something *could* happen (ie it is not physically impossible) doesn’t alter its probability.
What other 'European powers' were around and 'in the business'?
The Netherlands Portugal Spain France
Who wasn't in the colonial business?
Prussia Sweden Denmark
What were the Dutch doing 1792-1815? Being occupied and puppeted by the French, so that period is out. 1815-1830? Internal tensions that lead to the Belgian Revolution. Did they ever engage in settler colonialism? No.
What about Portugal? Similarly, they were a bit too busy with the Napoleonic Wars and their King having to flee to Brazil to fund new expeditions to the South Seas pre 1815. In 1820 they have their own revolution, leading to the loss/independence of Brazil and simmering trouble that erupted in, yes, another civil war in the late 1820s-mid 1830s. Did Portugal ever engage in settler colonialism? Not really post Brazil, with the 19th/20th century moves to Africa being a bit of a different case to the classical kind.
What was Spain doing in the 1780s-1815? Being an ally then victim of France. After that point, they are losing South America, going bankrupt, having a liberal revolution crushed by French intervention and generally entering into a decline due to the ravages of the Peninsular War. Did they ever engage in settler colonialism? Not after the 16th century.
France. I think we can rule out 1789-1815 for obvious reasons. After that, during the Bourbon Restoration, their focus was on North Africa. They had the economy to support it, but crucially, never engaged in settler colonialism on anywhere near the British level pre 1800 and nowhere near post. You might, might be able to put together a possible case for some sort of French settlement of Western Australia, but they don't have the combined *weight* to make it last. Their focus was on North Africa during this period.
|
|
|
Post by diamondstorm on May 18, 2023 2:11:10 GMT
Keep in mind the Napoleonic wars are likely butterflied with a POD that America loses its revolutionary war (which is what I had in mind) so all those European powers might be up to something else ITTL.
|
|