SinghSong
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Post by SinghSong on Mar 29, 2023 22:16:46 GMT
The North American/American bias comes through strongly in that idea. Britain never focused solely on North America - what of India? It also ignores the China trade, which as I said was a significant point in the settlement of Australia. The Dutch? The freaking Dutch? They weren't in any condition for major expansion or colonisation at that point, being a declining minor power. If France somehow beats Britain to the bell with regard to Australia, and that is an extremely tenuous and fraught assumption, then it simply loses it in the next war. This was a prize that wasn't simply going to be given up because of somehow getting distracted looking for a lost handkerchief. The entire scenario is based on a false assumption - that the whole purpose of the colonisation of Australia was based on the convict issue. Cook's voyage took place before the American Revolution; the strategic utility of Port Jackson/Sydney Harbour was identified and known. Do you believe in predestination? I don't. And why not the Dutch colonizing Australia instead- what about in a TL where, let's say, the British secure the far more valuable and lucrative prize of the Dutch East Indies for themselves, and let the Dutch colonize Australia for themselves as a 'consolation prize'?
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 29, 2023 23:21:25 GMT
The first question is irrelevant.
The main thrust of your contribution is to insert a completely different scenario into this one, requiring a PoD back in the 16th century. Further, given that the Dutch interest was ever in trade (and the lucrative spice trade to boot), one might suggest that the barren and spiceless Western Australian coast is a rather poor substitute. I might also observe that nations never really gave out consolation prizes; the past isn’t the same as the uncompetitive modern school playing field.
In any event, the OP is clearly talking about events that flow from the American Revolution as being the change here, or the PoD. My argument was and is that the roots of British interest in Australia stretch back further than this and aren’t tied directly to it as in the American-centric interpretation.
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SinghSong
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Post by SinghSong on Mar 30, 2023 0:36:49 GMT
The first question is irrelevant. The main thrust of your contribution is to insert a completely different scenario into this one, requiring a PoD back in the 16th century. Further, given that the Dutch interest was ever in trade (and the lucrative spice trade to boot), one might suggest that the barren and spiceless Western Australian coast is a rather poor substitute. I might also observe that nations never really gave out consolation prizes; the past isn’t the same as the uncompetitive modern school playing field. In any event, the OP is clearly talking about events that flow from the American Revolution as being the change here, or the PoD. My argument was and is that the roots of British interest in Australia stretch back further than this and aren’t tied directly to it as in the American-centric interpretation. Requiring a PoD back in the 16th century? How so? Initially, the British East India Company had plenty of interest in the region, but little impact IOTL, effectively getting expelled and having to write it off as a loss following the Siam–England war (1687); with Britain then turning their attention to the Bay of Bengal following the Peace with France and Spain (1783). But they then came back to temporarily take all these Dutch territories into their possession during the Napoleonic Wars; with the terms of the Anglo-Dutch Treaty of 1814 then agreeing to restore most of the colonial territories of the Dutch as they were at 1 January 1803, focusing on the Moluccas and Java; but with the exceptions of the Cape of Good Hope (South Africa) and the South American settlements of Demerara, Essequibo and Berbice, where the Dutch would be permitted to retain trading rights but these would be permanently annexed by the British. In addition, the British ceded the island of Banca off the island of Sumatra in exchange for the settlement of Cochin in India and its dependencies on the coast of Malabar, with the Dutch also ceding the district of Bernagore, situated close to Calcutta, in exchange for an annual fee; effectively, agreeing to withdraw from the East Indies in return for permanently forcing the Dutch out of India and South Africa. But there'd be plenty of time between 1788, when the British first colonized Australia IOTL (and presumably wouldn't ITTL), and 1803-14, for things to potentially play out very differently in an alternate scenario. If the British never colonized Australia, the Dutch and/or French almost certainly would've already attempted to establish a colony or two there themselves in that 15-25yr window, either prior to or during the Napoleonic Wars' outbreak. And if they have, there's A) no way the British'd let the French keep it, or B), anyone else besides the Dutch (or possibly Swedish or Germans, but they'd be a way longer stretch for plausibility) who the British would agree to leave Australia in the hands of (besides themselves- which with the title and premise of this thread being that the British never colonize Australia, isn't a possibility ITTL). When it came to dividing upon the colonial holdings of the First French Empire during and after the Napoleonic Wars, it can be observed that the British certainly did give out the equivalent of consolation prizes; since the balance of naval power was similarly uncompetitive to the modern school playing field, Britain's allies were only permitted to claim 'prizes' that the British were prepared to permit them to keep- most often only after hefty concessions and the annexation those of its allies' occupied colonies it wanted, in exchange for the 'consolations' of those of its own colonies it was willing to offload. And if the Brits decide to permanently take over the Dutch colonial settlements not only in India and South Africa, but in the Moluccas and Java too, Australia's the sort of 'consolation prize' they'd be happy to let the Dutch keep, and demand that they be grateful for it, just like they did with Bangka Island (and with it, suzerainty over the Palembang Sultanate and all the territory it controlled, effectively representing the British awarding Sumatra to the Dutch as their 'consolation prize' IOTL)...
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 30, 2023 11:03:23 GMT
The reference to the 16th century is what would be needed to preempt the Dutch for the DEI.
Evoking the Anglo-Siamese War of 1687 as somehow ending English and then British interests in the area until after the end of the American Revolutionary War is a bit of a long bow to draw, but an entirely different topic. The rest of the first paragraph is simply what happened historically.
In the second, you go off into territory that doesn’t make sense and involves multiple points of departure: PoD 1.) Britain, whose interests predate 1788, simply decides not to do anything about them PoD 2.) The Batavian Republic, whilst a French client State prior to 1806 and a Napoleonic puppet kingdom thereafter, manages to send out a colonisation fleet or two through the British blockade, settle on a completely different side of Australia than they have ever shown any interest in.
The window isn’t 15-25 years, it is a whole lot narrower: 1788-1794. After that point, there is no opening for the Dutch to pony up and establish colonies anywhere.
On the third paragraph, the British didn’t hand out consolation prizes to the Dutch, but returned those possessions they did not see as vital to keep. Control of the Cape was a vital strategic asset, whilst removing others from India was simply par for the course. The other important part missing in your scenario is that the DEI were hugely, hugely more valuable than a few marginal Australian colonies that were not even fully self sufficient in food until 1804. Australia was no prize.
I would draw a distinction between the Cape Colony and Dutch possessions in the Far East, where there was much less of a European population at this time. Australia has no spices, nor cash crops and, until the discovery of gold, saw almost only agricultural based settlement.
Further to that, the Netherlands lacks the population base, military or economy to support settler colonisation. No matter how many increasingly convoluted hoops one jumps through in order to postulate a Dutch Australia - and these efforts, by nature of their multiple PoDs and extremely strained series of assumptions are particularly convoluted in the hoop department - that is an area which come up as a realist constraint.
As said before, Britain had real interests in the area that went beyond ‘a place to dump convicts’ and these would not simply evaporate in the very unlikely event that the Batavian Republic manages to put down a settlement at what was then the farthest side of the world.
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SinghSong
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Post by SinghSong on Mar 30, 2023 12:33:22 GMT
The whole premise of this AH thread: "What If the British never colonized Australia?"
This guy: "IMPOSSIBLE! Only the British could EVER colonize Australia, cause it'd have no possible value to anyone else on account of how worthless it is, but OTL's Britain's real interests in the area, that went beyond ‘a place to dump convicts’ would not simply evaporate or fail to materialize NO MATTER WHAT ELSE HAPPENS!"
Don't get mad at me just for trying to be respectful regarding the whole AH premise of this thread's existence. When discussing AH scenarios, isn't it just common courtesy not to go "this whole premise is BS, only OTL's outcomes could ever happen"? You tell me- IF the British never colonized Australia, before the Napoleonic Wars, who else do YOU think'd be the most plausible alternative candidate? If it's the French, then do you think it'd be remotely plausible for the British to let it remain in French hands during the Napoleonic Wars? And how else do you think that the British could STILL choose not to occupy and colonize Australia themselves, during or after the Napoleonic Wars, other than if it's acknowledged as the colonial possession of one of their European allies? Tell me.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 30, 2023 14:17:36 GMT
The North American/American bias comes through strongly in that idea. Britain never focused solely on North America - what of India? It also ignores the China trade, which as I said was a significant point in the settlement of Australia. The Dutch? The freaking Dutch? They weren't in any condition for major expansion or colonisation at that point, being a declining minor power. If France somehow beats Britain to the bell with regard to Australia, and that is an extremely tenuous and fraught assumption, then it simply loses it in the next war. This was a prize that wasn't simply going to be given up because of somehow getting distracted looking for a lost handkerchief. The entire scenario is based on a false assumption - that the whole purpose of the colonisation of Australia was based on the convict issue. Cook's voyage took place before the American Revolution; the strategic utility of Port Jackson/Sydney Harbour was identified and known. See MAP. Comparison India Comparison North America During the age of colonial imperialist aggressions, Britain, France, the Netherlands, Portugal and Spain used the semi-rigged and full rigged sailing ships to explore spice routes to eastern Asia. They fought and squabbled on the world ocean and exported their local societal troubles onto the rest of the planet. Depending on how shrewd the aggressors were and how resistant the local inhabitants were or became, the colonial imperialist aggressors imposed rule or settled into discovered new lands. They used navigatable rivers to make inward encroachments on the local human inhabitants. In the case of India, the land was pre-settled and fractured into political subdivisions. It was possible for the British to nibble the region one piece at a time pitting one Indian state against another Indian state and thus establish an "empire" via technological superiority, political gamesmanship, and DUMB luck. This was seen previously in history. It was how Rome established her empire in the Mediterranean basin. The method only works when another polity is weak and disorganized and the distances and resources and means expended are not cost prohibitive and the climate is "friendly" to trekking on foot or afloat on the rivers. In the case of North America, the climate was friendly, the rivers plentiful, the local peoples were hunter gatherer proto-agriculture stage above the Rio Grande River and there were very few of the local inhabitants. YET the British stayed fairly close to the seacoasts in the east. It was left to Americans, after we threw the British out, to carry on the continental settlement across the midband latitudes. Gold in California and internal American politics shaped that drive. There was no British incentive and they did not endeavor. Notice that factor in how sparsely and unevenly and poorly Canada was settled, even though it remained a part of the "empire". Outside the Saint Lawrence River Valley, the internal communications by river and trek was hindered by harsh climate. The coasts, reachable by ship were settled; but down to the present, the interior might as well be considered "underpopulated". As an aside, the United States exhibits the same coastal population concentrations and an underpopulated interior; but we still have dense populations in our great plains compared to Canada. Rivers and trek friendly terrain plus WEATHER accounts for that outcome. Look at Australia. Climate indicates coastal settlements and the hunter gatherer stage local inhabitants indicates colonial settlement rather than imposed rule on a local polity by a foreign imperialist aggressor. The location of Australia that far south off the spice routes, its horrible interior climate, lack of easy rivers and gentle climate for trekking all combined to render it almost last by default for European aggressors to find and settle. The British took one look at it, at first, and decided it was a place "fit for convicts". The French actually looked at it and settled for strip mining New Caledonia instead. The "convicts" and later settlers built themselves a country anyway. Their settlement pattern followed the geophysical access and climate realities, which as a sidebar is WHY the Allies *(ANZACs Americans) in WWII battered their way through New Guinea and moved through the Philippines rather from India and the Malayan straits, or through the eastern half of Dutch held Indonesia. By ship, by railroad logistics and supplied local industry and agriculture and by climate, eastern Australia was the only way to go. You do know that a south to north railroad and paved road to DARWIN from Alice Springs was a postwar endeavor? That is how tough the interior of Australia was and is to cross. Only necessity compels lazy humans to do "difficult" things like that.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 30, 2023 14:26:24 GMT
The whole premise of this AH thread: "What If the British never colonized Australia?" This guy: "IMPOSSIBLE! Only the British could EVER colonize Australia, cause it'd have no possible value to anyone else on account of how worthless it is, but OTL's Britain's real interests in the area, that went beyond ‘a place to dump convicts’ would not simply evaporate or fail to materialize NO MATTER WHAT ELSE HAPPENS!" Don't get mad at me just for trying to be respectful regarding the whole AH premise of this thread's existence. When discussing AH scenarios, isn't it just common courtesy not to go "this whole premise is BS, only OTL's outcomes could ever happen"? You tell me- IF the British never colonized Australia, before the Napoleonic Wars, who else do YOU think'd be the most plausible alternative candidate? If it's the French, then do you think it'd be remotely plausible for the British to let it remain in French hands during the Napoleonic Wars? And how else do you think that the British could STILL choose not to occupy and colonize Australia themselves, during or after the Napoleonic Wars, other than if it's acknowledged as the colonial possession of one of their European allies? Tell me. Three possibilites in the second wave of colonialist imperialisr aggression based on what happened in the late 19th Century. I would peg the possible incursions as early as 1840 for the Americans and no later than 1875 for either France or Germany. Japan is a possible outlier as early as 1860, but they were really not ready for it before 1890.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 30, 2023 14:32:28 GMT
Do I know that the Alice Springs to Darwin railway was completed in 2004? Yes, I certainly do and remember it well; I used to drink with a few blokes who worked on it.
Do I know how tough the outback is to drive across? Well, I did it for 15 years.
Australia isn’t a foreign topic for me.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 30, 2023 14:46:18 GMT
The whole premise of this AH thread: "What If the British never colonized Australia?" This guy: "IMPOSSIBLE! Only the British could EVER colonize Australia, cause it'd have no possible value to anyone else on account of how worthless it is, but OTL's Britain's real interests in the area, that went beyond ‘a place to dump convicts’ would not simply evaporate or fail to materialize NO MATTER WHAT ELSE HAPPENS!" Don't get mad at me just for trying to be respectful regarding the whole AH premise of this thread's existence. When discussing AH scenarios, isn't it just common courtesy not to go "this whole premise is BS, only OTL's outcomes could ever happen"? You tell me- IF the British never colonized Australia, before the Napoleonic Wars, who else do YOU think'd be the most plausible alternative candidate? If it's the French, then do you think it'd be remotely plausible for the British to let it remain in French hands during the Napoleonic Wars? And how else do you think that the British could STILL choose not to occupy and colonize Australia themselves, during or after the Napoleonic Wars, other than if it's acknowledged as the colonial possession of one of their European allies? Tell me. I would note that the premise of the thread was outlined in the OP, which takes a rather different approach than the minimalist one you deem to outline, but rather specified: - The settlement of Australia was largely motivated by the convict issue - An unsuccessful American Revolution would remove this - Can Australia avoid colonisation, not just by Britain, but full stop - What then would be the different development of the continent? I then replied that there was more to it than convicts; that other states were sniffing around; and that there would not be any ‘development’ prior to colonisation in any measurable fashion. Subsequently, in response to a second poster who postulated that the French or Dutch may settle in the event of Britain completely ignoring Australia, I stressed that this was unlikely given that there was more to Britain’s interest than convicts alone, that any French settlement would be taken in the Napoleonic Wars and that the Dutch were well out of any expansionist phase, even if they had that capacity. I would suggest that mischaracterising someone’s argument in such an excessive fashion, making demands, accusing people of discourtesy and claiming that a response constitutes ‘getting mad at you’ is not a recipe for success or reasonable discussion.
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Mar 30, 2023 14:55:26 GMT
So if British Empire focus on there American Colonies instead Australia
Who will take it ? the Dutch ? nope their interested in trade Post and they got Indonesia, why to bother with that Australia ? France were interested in Colonise Australia but French Kingdom was edge of bankruptcy, The French Empire under Napoleon had similar plans but had issue with British Empire.
So left the British who need resupply harbour in that part of World, Sydney bay would perfect. But that is all, a harbour with docks and small settlement.
Although this here would be nightmare scenario: in 1830s Leopold I claim Australia as Belgium Colony...
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 30, 2023 15:02:15 GMT
The whole premise of this AH thread: "What If the British never colonized Australia?" This guy: "IMPOSSIBLE! Only the British could EVER colonize Australia, cause it'd have no possible value to anyone else on account of how worthless it is, but OTL's Britain's real interests in the area, that went beyond ‘a place to dump convicts’ would not simply evaporate or fail to materialize NO MATTER WHAT ELSE HAPPENS!" Don't get mad at me just for trying to be respectful regarding the whole AH premise of this thread's existence. When discussing AH scenarios, isn't it just common courtesy not to go "this whole premise is BS, only OTL's outcomes could ever happen"? You tell me- IF the British never colonized Australia, before the Napoleonic Wars, who else do YOU think'd be the most plausible alternative candidate? If it's the French, then do you think it'd be remotely plausible for the British to let it remain in French hands during the Napoleonic Wars? And how else do you think that the British could STILL choose not to occupy and colonize Australia themselves, during or after the Napoleonic Wars, other than if it's acknowledged as the colonial possession of one of their European allies? Tell me. I see discussions taking place related to Australia and such it is allowed, this is not, so stop okay.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 30, 2023 15:12:57 GMT
Do I know that the Alice Springs to Darwin railway was completed in 2004? Yes, I certainly do and remember it well; I used to drink with a few blokes who worked on it. Do I know how tough the outback is to drive across? Well, I did it for 15 years. Australia isn’t a foreign topic for me. That was just after the China investments and the great northern mineral deposits were developed? I neglected one factor for Australia.The whaling zones were small, but between 1820-1880 they were there. Of more importance (Falklands and St Georges for example. M.), to the British were the Atlantic zones, but Australia was close to those Indian Ocean zones.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 30, 2023 15:32:03 GMT
You’d have to be a bit more specific than that, as we’ve been selling stuff to China for years (including years prior to that) and as for great northern (shudder) mineral deposits, the Pilbara has been producing iron since the 60s and Weipa’s bauxite since the 1950s, whilst uranium in the NT is older than that, Mount Isa older still and so forth.
Alice to Darwin was cancelled by the Hawke Labor government in 83, resurrected by the Howard Coalition government in 1999 and built July 01 to September 03, before the onset of what is termed the ‘mining boom’ here, which generally is considered to have kicked off in ~03 and lasted for the next decade. The railway line is mainly used for tourist/passenger purposes on The Ghan, but there is a bit of traffic from the Army bases in Darwin (where 1st Armoured Regiment was based) down to El Alamein and the live fire range out to Iron Knob; 1st Armoured has now moved down here to Adelaide.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 30, 2023 15:33:46 GMT
Okay, we are getting into After-1900 and current politics with China and Australia, so lets focus on discussion the thread.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 30, 2023 15:47:31 GMT
Moved to PM.
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