575
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Post by 575 on Apr 22, 2023 8:13:47 GMT
Denmark 22 April 1940
Before sending off the West Indies Squadron the Frigate Niels Juel was renamed Sjælland to eliminate any confusion – though it had been proposed to retain the name to create just such!
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 22, 2023 8:27:11 GMT
Wadden Sea Isles 12 February 1864 ”Keep the Wadden Sea isles” – Lieutenantcaptain O.C. Hammer raise the banner in a political campaign and is immediately met with a heavy barrage from the Navy Ministry - ”You are presently in the service of His Majesty's Navy – Political activity not allowed service personnel. You may stop Your political activities or face consequenses – a posting to the West Indies or North Atlantic – or You may resign.” Hammer stops his open political activity but everybody is aware that he is talking to various peoples in the South Jutland/Wadden Sea region strongly argueing Denmark to keep the isles. So if we look at this very old map, are we speaking about Denmark keeping, Amrum, Föhr, Sylt and Pellworm among others.  |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 22, 2023 9:12:21 GMT
Wadden Sea Isles 12 February 1864 ”Keep the Wadden Sea isles” – Lieutenantcaptain O.C. Hammer raise the banner in a political campaign and is immediately met with a heavy barrage from the Navy Ministry - ”You are presently in the service of His Majesty's Navy – Political activity not allowed service personnel. You may stop Your political activities or face consequenses – a posting to the West Indies or North Atlantic – or You may resign.” Hammer stops his open political activity but everybody is aware that he is talking to various peoples in the South Jutland/Wadden Sea region strongly argueing Denmark to keep the isles. So if we look at this very old map, are we speaking about Denmark keeping, Amrum, Föhr, Sylt and Pellworm among others. No none of those - the southernmost island would still be Rømø.
Though as already indicated this point is inciting spirits in Denmark.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 22, 2023 9:13:15 GMT
So if we look at this very old map, are we speaking about Denmark keeping, Amrum, Föhr, Sylt and Pellworm among others. No none of those - the southernmost island would still be Rømø.
Though as already indicated this point is inciting spirits in Denmark.
A okay, thanks for the clarification. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 22, 2023 10:54:19 GMT
So that means 37 voted against or abstained. How many votes does Prussia have in the assembly I wonder?
Prussia itself have 4, two Hohenzollern states 1 each - others here - I may be in error of those voting against or abstaining but its my guess.
Voting for: Austria 4
Bavaria 4
Saxony 4
Hanover 4
Württemberg 4
Hesse's 7
Saxony's 5
Brunswick 2
Nassau 2
Mecklenburg's 3
Oldenburg 1
Hamburg 1
Many thanks 575. Must admit given its size compared to the other German states - including probably what Austrian territories are included in the Confederation its surprising it has so few.
I assume the Saxony's 5 are the 5 Sax-states which are in what is called lower Saxony.
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 22, 2023 11:04:33 GMT
Prussia itself have 4, two Hohenzollern states 1 each - others here - I may be in error of those voting against or abstaining but its my guess.
Voting for: Austria 4
Bavaria 4
Saxony 4
Hanover 4
Württemberg 4
Hesse's 7
Saxony's 5
Brunswick 2
Nassau 2
Mecklenburg's 3
Oldenburg 1
Hamburg 1
Many thanks 575. Must admit given its size compared to the other German states - including probably what Austrian territories are included in the Confederation its surprising it has so few.
I assume the Saxony's 5 are the 5 Sax-states which are in what is called lower Saxony.
Yes - I decided to bundle them for my own ease of counting.  |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 23, 2023 9:39:05 GMT
Copenhagen April 1940
Chinese Minister to Copenhagen arrived at the Foreign Office asking for advice; he had considered working to uplift his country by use of his information from the time since 1864.
However he feared the Imperial Government would only use him for extracting as much information as possible and then execute him in this time of ongoing rebellions and loss of territory and integrity to the British, French and Russian Empires.
The state of uprisings in the east, the south and the west of the Empire had continued into the early-mid 1870's which killed more than 20 million peoples.
The Foreign Ministry Secretary looked at the man and nodded. Well Denmark was in no position to support his staff nor the Embassy building so he would be on his own if he didn't get funds from the Chinese Government or were able to raise such himself.
Disillusioned the Chinese Minister took his leave to go pondering what to do.
Japanese Minister
The Japanese Minister to Copenhagen had had a vision of securing modern arms for his Empire making it able to go on a conquest spree in the Far East conquering lands with resources needed to build his modern times.
On second thoughts he realized that it would be a longer period before that would be possible with the ongong internal strife – Bakumatsu Period – and occasional war with the Western Powers. There was too much western interest to spoil his plans.
Though the Imperial Embassy to Europe would arrive in the Netherlands 6. February 1864 – which was two days ago.
He pondered that again – a Japanese request for getting European hands off Japan. Better hold the horses a little, just some 5 years should do it.
Polish Envoy
Pestering Foreign Office Director Scavenius with continous pleas for intervening in Poland against the Russian subduing of continued Polish flare up of insurrections. Scavenius each time reject such as Denmark isn't party to the conflict.
The Polish Envoy make complaints of Scavenius' rejections to PM Stauning calling Scavenius rude towards him; Stauning's answer: ”That man is rude to everybody!”
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 23, 2023 17:57:13 GMT
London 2 March 1864
In the ensuing Danish political interregnum negotiations at London took off with Danish, German Confederation, Austria, Prussia, Imperial Russia, Sweden-Norway, Imperial France headed by Lord Russel.
Everybody agree to proceed according to plan mainly due to the German States realizing that France is about to incinerate central Europe – the de facto Danish Government proposals on the future of Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg and Schleswig Diocese are accepted by the GC and Austria to avert French meddling.
An Austrian Army had been mobilized on the Italian border and Vice-Admiral Dahlerup of the Austrian Navy mobilizing for taking to sea in the Adriatic. At the moment any Austrian thoughts of dispatching a Squadron for the North Sea is shelved.
These developments forces Lord Russel to speed up negotiations and send a sharp note to the French Imperial Government.
Nobody is actually interested in a major European war at the moment.
The Blockade question was soon brought forth; the Danes hadn't, beyond Navy Patrols which had fired long range warning shots at Prussian Gunboats, interfered much in German shipping as weather had limited that.
With the onset of Spring to be expected the German Confederation raised the issue.
Lord Russel informed the parties that Britain supported the right of Denmarks of establishing a Navy Blockade of German ports should it decide to do so (not to limit own Naval activities in case of future war).
Danish Foreign Minister P. Munch and Director of Foreign Office E. Scavenius aired the Danish keeping the question open untill an agreement had been met on the main issue of the Peace Talks: recognition of Denmark upon Status quo and settlement of the Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg issue.
At this clear statement the Austrian, Prussian and German Confederation delegates asked for a day's recess of talks to consult their Governments and Imperial Diet.
As the German delegates had left the Danish delegates asked the delegates of the attending Powers to visit the Danish Navy Trainingship Niels Juel at anchor on the Thames for a tour of the ship and Lunch.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 23, 2023 18:06:54 GMT
London 2 March 1864 In the ensuing Danish political interregnum negotiations at London took off with Danish, German Confederation, Austria, Prussia, Imperial Russia, Sweden-Norway, Imperial France headed by Lord Russel. Everybody agree to proceed according to plan mainly due to the German States realizing that France is about to incinerate central Europe – the de facto Danish Government proposals on the future of Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg and Schleswig Diocese are accepted by the GC and Austria to avert French meddling. An Austrian Army had been mobilized on the Italian border and Vice-Admiral Dahlerup of the Austrian Navy mobilizing for taking to sea in the Adriatic. At the moment any Austrian thoughts of dispatching a Squadron for the North Sea is shelved. These developments forces Lord Russel to speed up negotiations and send a sharp note to the French Imperial Government. Nobody is actually interested in a major European war at the moment. The Blockade question was soon brought forth; the Danes hadn't, beyond Navy Patrols which had fired long range warning shots at Prussian Gunboats, interfered much in German shipping as weather had limited that. With the onset of Spring to be expected the German Confederation raised the issue. Lord Russel informed the parties that Britain supported the right of Denmarks of establishing a Navy Blockade of German ports should it decide to do so (not to limit own Naval activities in case of future war). Danish Foreign Minister P. Munch and Director of Foreign Office E. Scavenius aired the Danish keeping the question open untill an agreement had been met on the main issue of the Peace Talks: recognition of Denmark upon Status quo and settlement of the Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg issue. At this clear statement the Austrian, Prussian and German Confederation delegates asked for a day's recess of talks to consult their Governments and Imperial Diet. As the German delegates had left the Danish delegates asked the delegates of the attending Powers to visit the Danish Navy Trainingship Niels Juel at anchor on the Thames for a tour of the ship and Lunch. Seems the Second French Empire want to remind everybody they are also here. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 23, 2023 19:06:08 GMT
London 2 March 1864 In the ensuing Danish political interregnum negotiations at London took off with Danish, German Confederation, Austria, Prussia, Imperial Russia, Sweden-Norway, Imperial France headed by Lord Russel. Everybody agree to proceed according to plan mainly due to the German States realizing that France is about to incinerate central Europe – the de facto Danish Government proposals on the future of Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg and Schleswig Diocese are accepted by the GC and Austria to avert French meddling. An Austrian Army had been mobilized on the Italian border and Vice-Admiral Dahlerup of the Austrian Navy mobilizing for taking to sea in the Adriatic. At the moment any Austrian thoughts of dispatching a Squadron for the North Sea is shelved. These developments forces Lord Russel to speed up negotiations and send a sharp note to the French Imperial Government. Nobody is actually interested in a major European war at the moment. The Blockade question was soon brought forth; the Danes hadn't, beyond Navy Patrols which had fired long range warning shots at Prussian Gunboats, interfered much in German shipping as weather had limited that. With the onset of Spring to be expected the German Confederation raised the issue. Lord Russel informed the parties that Britain supported the right of Denmarks of establishing a Navy Blockade of German ports should it decide to do so (not to limit own Naval activities in case of future war). Danish Foreign Minister P. Munch and Director of Foreign Office E. Scavenius aired the Danish keeping the question open untill an agreement had been met on the main issue of the Peace Talks: recognition of Denmark upon Status quo and settlement of the Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg issue. At this clear statement the Austrian, Prussian and German Confederation delegates asked for a day's recess of talks to consult their Governments and Imperial Diet. As the German delegates had left the Danish delegates asked the delegates of the attending Powers to visit the Danish Navy Trainingship Niels Juel at anchor on the Thames for a tour of the ship and Lunch. Seems the Second French Empire want to remind everybody they are also here. But of course it does - right now the road east is open. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 23, 2023 19:28:22 GMT
Seems the Second French Empire want to remind everybody they are also here. But of course it does - right now the road east is open. And thus the British responds, behave ore else. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 23, 2023 20:06:35 GMT
But of course it does - right now the road east is open. And thus the British responds, behave ore else.
Almost certainly if it involves something north of the Alps. Probably expressing concern if its another adventure in Italy as well. Not so bluntly of course, but likely some subtle nudges and expressions of concern.
Mind you isn't Nappy III rather busy with Mexico at the moment?
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 28, 2023 8:31:03 GMT
And thus the British responds, behave ore else.
Almost certainly if it involves something north of the Alps. Probably expressing concern if its another adventure in Italy as well. Not so bluntly of course, but likely some subtle nudges and expressions of concern.
Mind you isn't Nappy III rather busy with Mexico at the moment?
Nap III is busy in Mexico but the Germans have just see the Danes obliterating their Armies in a WEEK! The beast up North is a Cobra! Prussia lost hwy equipment for 1/5 - 1/4 of its Army (can't find the specifics right now 12 or 19 Corps). Austria lost less but also deployed less. Enough for any uttering by Nap III to be considered very real despite his engagement in Mexico.
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 28, 2023 8:35:21 GMT
London 3 March 1864
Resuming the meeting Lord Russel asked the German delegates of their position regarding yesterday's Danish reply to the Blockade question.
The Austrian and German Confederation delegates answered in unison while the Prussian delegate answered on his own though the three agreed to the Danish reply.
Danish Foreign Minister P. Munch then informed the Conference that Denmark took the position - resulting from the upon it forced resort to arms on the issue - that Denmark didn't have any territorial objectives to pursue BUT demanded recognition of its status quo borders AND that the issue of Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg should be settled by establishing – as the German Confederation desired – an independent state as a member of the German Confederation; a Duchy or Grand Duchy in which case Denmark would refer to the settlement of Oldenburg at Vienna 1815.
HOWEVER Denmarks position regarding the Duchy of Schleswig being that said Duchy since time immemorial had been a Danish Earldom later Duchy as described by Medieval Chroniclers AND the Holy Roman Empire as well as recognized by Papal Authority.
Not disregarding the Ribe Constitution of 1460 nor various Schleswig-Holstein later utterings on the status' of the two Duchies His Danish Majesty King Christian X still being the ruling Duke of said Duchy would be ready to bestow the fief of South Schleswig upon a ruler ready to accept His Danish Majesty as his liege lord in all matters.
Among the oath of fealty taken would be never to take up arms upon the liege lord or the fief would be forfeighed and His Danish Majesty having the sole right to retake what he had bestowed in fealty.
The German delegates looked more than surprised. The Prussian v. Bernstorff uttered some refusal and were cut short by Scavenius informing that 40,000 Prussian troops still being Prisoners of War in Denmark and no accord having been reached upon an exchange of such.
German Confederation delegate v. Beust then uttered that the German Confederation still observed Schleswig being a German fief which drew the dry comment by Scavenius ”YOU didn't even try take it limiting Yourself to Holstein and Saxe-Lauenburg”.
Austrian delegate Count Apponyi then asked for a short recess to be able to present a German accord to the Danish demand.
During the recess it was soon apparent that Russia was the major supporter of South Schleswig being a Danish fief; any Duke the Russian envoy Baron Brunnow explained would have the Imperial Russian support of being made a Grandduke.
Nobody was questioning the Danish demand regarding the establishment of the independent South Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg Duchy.
Nobody was questioning the Danish position on the issue of Blockade.
Resuming Conference the Austrian Envoy Count Apponyi and the German Confederation representative Saxon v. Beust supported the Danish position regarding the Duchy of South Schleswig– only the Prussian Envoy v. Bernstorff initially expressed reservations on the subject only to change that in a day. Apparently instructions had been recieved from Berlin.
The issue of Blockade was then scheduled for talks next day 4 March.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 28, 2023 8:57:16 GMT
Almost certainly if it involves something north of the Alps. Probably expressing concern if its another adventure in Italy as well. Not so bluntly of course, but likely some subtle nudges and expressions of concern. Mind you isn't Nappy III rather busy with Mexico at the moment?
Nap III is busy in Mexico but the Germans have just see the Danes obliterating their Armies in a WEEK! The beast up North is a Cobra! Prussia lost hwy equipment for 1/5 - 1/4 of its Army (can't find the specifics right now 12 or 19 Corps). Austria lost less but also deployed less. Enough for any uttering by Nap III to be considered very real despite his engagement in Mexico.
Napoleon III might want to talk with the French ambassador to Denmark in 1940 who i have the say has one of the best looking Embassy in Denmark.  |
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