miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 9, 2023 14:48:10 GMT
London 16 April 1940/ 8 February 1864 The Times Editor would be surprised at the news of a large Danish Flying Machine landing just to the south of London with Carriages hired by the Danish Legate to London awaiting it. The Flying Machine was said to be carrying a Danish Negotiating Delegation regarding the Schleswig War. The Editor had Journalist's run off in all directions to get news of the development of the situation – this being news indeed. Well no need for two certain Americans to make the first flight, the world now knows the Danes beat them by 40 years. Copenhagen to London is about 525 naut miles or 1000 kilometers. There are two candidate aircraft. Fokker F.XII Only two were acquired. This aircraft had a range of about 700 naut mile or 1300 kilometers. Takeoff run was was about 1600 feet or 500 meters give or take 10% dependi9ng on the wind. Landing as a rule of thumb was equal or longer in length to takeoff in those days. Lousy or no brakes. How about the other candidate? The Focke Wolfe FW 200? Only two were acquired. Range is 3500 kilometers or 1900 naut miles. Takeoffs and landings for this plane were 2,750 feet (839 m) of runway. . The only airport the Danes have which can operate a Condor in 1940 is the one at Copenhagen which used grass covered packed earth runways maintained by sheep. Those ruinways were of the required length, two of them about 1000 meters or 3,280 feet. Where do we find a pasture of hard packed ground in central England that is 1500 meters or 9/10 of a mile long? =================================================== Now we will address Orville and Wibur, because fair is fair. Arguably, they are the first human beings to operate manned powered aircraft that used winglift to fly which were controlled in yaw, pitch and roll; but there is considerable dispute about whether they were the first to take off and land under power. I am somewhat convinced that the Frenchman, Alberto Santos-Dumont had achieved unassisted takeoff and controlled flight at about the same time as the Wrights finally achieved takeoffs without a catapult with the Wright IV. Both cases are well documented. It would be a coin toss, but I favor Dumont and the date is 12 November 1906, which beats the Wrights by about a week. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 9, 2023 17:47:08 GMT
Well no need for two certain Americans to make the first flight, the world now knows the Danes beat them by 40 years. Copenhagen to London is about 525 naut miles or 1000 kilometers. There are two candidate aircraft. Fokker F.XII Only two were acquired. This aircraft had a range of about 700 naut mile or 1300 kilometers. Takeoff run was was about 1600 feet or 500 meters give or take 10% dependi9ng on the wind. Landing as a rule of thumb was equal or longer in length to takeoff in those days. Lousy or no brakes. How about the other candidate? The Focke Wolfe FW 200? Only two were acquired. Range is 3500 kilometers or 1900 naut miles. Takeoffs and landings for this plane were 2,750 feet (839 m) of runway. . The only airport the Danes have which can operate a Condor in 1940 is the one at Copenhagen which used grass covered packed earth runways maintained by sheep. Those ruinways were of the required length, two of them about 1000 meters or 3,280 feet. Where do we find a pasture of hard packed ground in central England that is 1500 meters or 9/10 of a mile long? =================================================== Now we will address Orville and Wibur, because fair is fair. Arguably, they are the first human beings to operate manned powered aircraft that used winglift to fly which were controlled in yaw, pitch and roll; but there is considerable dispute about whether they were the first to take off and land under power. I am somewhat convinced that the Frenchman, Alberto Santos-Dumont had achieved unassisted takeoff and controlled flight at about the same time as the Wrights finally achieved takeoffs without a catapult with the Wright IV. Both cases are well documented. It would be a coin toss, but I favor Dumont and the date is 12 November 1906, which beats the Wrights by about a week. One of the Condor's were in Britain on April 8-9 and the crew decided to stay. The Condor was enrolled in RAF. So we don't look for a runway for the Condor in England but use one of the Fokker F-XII.
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 9, 2023 18:45:17 GMT
Ideally it should have been a Fokker F-VIIa but for range.
I thought the Fokker F-XII the more rugged construction but also it had been built by the Orlogs Værftet - Navy Yard so if it was damaged it could be rebuilt. The Condor would be an absolute write-off.
The Junkers Ju52/3m would also have been a possible due to range but again only one AC.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 9, 2023 20:18:13 GMT
Copenhagen to London is about 525 naut miles or 1000 kilometers. There are two candidate aircraft. Fokker F.XII Only two were acquired. This aircraft had a range of about 700 naut mile or 1300 kilometers. Takeoff run was was about 1600 feet or 500 meters give or take 10% dependi9ng on the wind. Landing as a rule of thumb was equal or longer in length to takeoff in those days. Lousy or no brakes. How about the other candidate? The Focke Wolfe FW 200? Only two were acquired. Range is 3500 kilometers or 1900 naut miles. Takeoffs and landings for this plane were 2,750 feet (839 m) of runway. . The only airport the Danes have which can operate a Condor in 1940 is the one at Copenhagen which used grass covered packed earth runways maintained by sheep. Those ruinways were of the required length, two of them about 1000 meters or 3,280 feet. Where do we find a pasture of hard packed ground in central England that is 1500 meters or 9/10 of a mile long? =================================================== Now we will address Orville and Wibur, because fair is fair. Arguably, they are the first human beings to operate manned powered aircraft that used winglift to fly which were controlled in yaw, pitch and roll; but there is considerable dispute about whether they were the first to take off and land under power. I am somewhat convinced that the Frenchman, Alberto Santos-Dumont had achieved unassisted takeoff and controlled flight at about the same time as the Wrights finally achieved takeoffs without a catapult with the Wright IV. Both cases are well documented. It would be a coin toss, but I favor Dumont and the date is 12 November 1906, which beats the Wrights by about a week. One of the Condor's were in Britain on April 8-9 and the crew decided to stay. The Condor was enrolled in RAF. So we don't look for a runway for the Condor in England but use one of the Fokker F-XII.
1,500 meters is marginal for a Condoe, but I would still like to have it for the F-XII. That pasture will have no nav aids, and it could be surrounded by trees and curious livestock. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 9, 2023 20:57:29 GMT
One of the Condor's were in Britain on April 8-9 and the crew decided to stay. The Condor was enrolled in RAF. So we don't look for a runway for the Condor in England but use one of the Fokker F-XII.
1,500 meters is marginal for a Condoe, but I would still like to have it for the F-XII. That pasture will have no nav aids, and it could be surrounded by trees and curious livestock. I would like the Condor too but the Fokker F-XII is better known to the crew and flying in England during winter will be no different than the conditions in Denmark. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 10, 2023 8:29:53 GMT
Heligoland 17 April 1940/ 9 February 1864 The British Navy Station at Heligoland had for some days observed the Danish Warships patrolling the waters; obviously no threat as the interest were to the German coast but of course reported to the Admiralty – no such ships had been seen before. This morning the larger of the ships apparently the Squadron Leader came within 3 miles of the island to launch its Motorlaunch which headed to the Port.
The Motorlaunch of HDMS Peder Skram approached Heligoland harbour as the Royal Marines observed it. They were hailed in perfect English though with an American accent when the Motorlaunch came to the Quay - ”Midshipman(Ensign) Birksted, Royal Danish Navy” the Officer presented himself ”to meet the Commander Heligoland.” The Marines escorted the Danish Officer and his aide who carried a large bag to HQ where he was asked to take a seat and wait. Only a short wait and Birksted was called to the commander. Explaining his mission Birksted was allowed to have his Radio Specialist set up his apparatus and send a recognition signal. Only a few moments later a short code came through. Acknowledged another longer signal came through – transcribed the signal was handed to Birksted who handed it to the RN commander who went to the door called out and handed the signal to an Officer. It was only a few minutes before the Officer returned handed the RN commander a note and left. The RN commander looked at Birksted and said: ”If You please send this” handing him a short ciffer note. Birksted handed the note to the Radio Specialist who immediatedly had the Morsekey ticking. Within a minute an acknowledgement came through. The RN commander looked at Birksted: ”Now tell me the story.. orderly, Tea Navy Style.” Birksted then related the past 8 days – among these 3 days of constant airoperations and the last two of reconnaisance flights which he personally had been party to as a Pilot of 1. Navy Air Flotilla flying a Heinkel He8 which at times had been viewed from Heligoland. It was a very interested RN commander listening. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 10, 2023 8:55:51 GMT
Heligoland 17 April 1940/ 9 February 1864 The British Navy Station at Heligoland had for some days observed the Danish Warships patrolling the waters; obviously no threat as the interest were to the German coast but of course reported to the Admiralty – no such ships had been seen before. This morning the larger of the ships apparently the Squadron Leader came within 3 miles of the island to launch its Motorlaunch which headed to the Port. The Motorlaunch of HDMS Peder Skram approached Heligoland harbour as the Royal Marines observed it. They were hailed in perfect English though with an American accent when the Motorlaunch came to the Quay - ”Midshipman(Ensign) Birksted, Royal Danish Navy” the Officer presented himself ”to meet the Commander Heligoland.” The Marines escorted the Danish Officer and his aide who carried a large bag to HQ where he was asked to take a seat and wait. Only a short wait and Birksted was called to the commander. Explaining his mission Birksted was allowed to have his Radio Specialist set up his apparatus and send a recognition signal. Only a few moments later a short code came through. Acknowledged another longer signal came through – transcribed the signal was handed to Birksted who handed it to the RN commander who went to the door called out and handed the signal to an Officer. It was only a few minutes before the Officer returned handed the RN commander a note and left. The RN commander looked at Birksted and said: ”If You please send this” handing him a short ciffer note. Birksted handed the note to the Radio Specialist who immediatedly had the Morsekey ticking. Within a minute an acknowledgement came through. The RN commander looked at Birksted: ”Now tell me the story.. orderly, Tea Navy Style.” Birksted then related the past 8 days – among these 3 days of constant airoperations and the last two of reconnaisance flights which he personally had been party to as a Pilot of 1. Navy Air Flotilla flying a Heinkel He8 which at times had been viewed from Heligoland. It was a very interested RN commander listening. Wonder if there are a photos being taken by the Royal Navy on Heligoland of Peder Skram. Think the only ship the Royal Navy has in 1864 that can compete with Peder Skram is HMS Royal Oak (1862) unless i have checked wrong. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 10, 2023 9:36:53 GMT
Heligoland 17 April 1940/ 9 February 1864 The British Navy Station at Heligoland had for some days observed the Danish Warships patrolling the waters; obviously no threat as the interest were to the German coast but of course reported to the Admiralty – no such ships had been seen before. This morning the larger of the ships apparently the Squadron Leader came within 3 miles of the island to launch its Motorlaunch which headed to the Port. The Motorlaunch of HDMS Peder Skram approached Heligoland harbour as the Royal Marines observed it. They were hailed in perfect English though with an American accent when the Motorlaunch came to the Quay - ”Midshipman(Ensign) Birksted, Royal Danish Navy” the Officer presented himself ”to meet the Commander Heligoland.” The Marines escorted the Danish Officer and his aide who carried a large bag to HQ where he was asked to take a seat and wait. Only a short wait and Birksted was called to the commander. Explaining his mission Birksted was allowed to have his Radio Specialist set up his apparatus and send a recognition signal. Only a few moments later a short code came through. Acknowledged another longer signal came through – transcribed the signal was handed to Birksted who handed it to the RN commander who went to the door called out and handed the signal to an Officer. It was only a few minutes before the Officer returned handed the RN commander a note and left. The RN commander looked at Birksted and said: ”If You please send this” handing him a short ciffer note. Birksted handed the note to the Radio Specialist who immediatedly had the Morsekey ticking. Within a minute an acknowledgement came through. The RN commander looked at Birksted: ”Now tell me the story.. orderly, Tea Navy Style.” Birksted then related the past 8 days – among these 3 days of constant airoperations and the last two of reconnaisance flights which he personally had been party to as a Pilot of 1. Navy Air Flotilla flying a Heinkel He8 which at times had been viewed from Heligoland. It was a very interested RN commander listening. Wonder if there are a photos being taken by the Royal Navy on Heligoland of Peder Skram. Think the only ship the Royal Navy has in 1864 that can compete with Peder Skram is HMS Royal Oak (1862) unless i have checked wrong. Well with Your interest in Warships You may have a link to a RN photo archive? Just did a google search - no hit.
The Peder Skram is 4 knots faster than Royal Oak and the 24cm Bofors L43/M06 guns would probably make it being hit at long range before it will be able to respond - and importantly - hit! Firing rate 3 shots a minute range 15,2 km.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 10, 2023 9:41:46 GMT
Wonder if there are a photos being taken by the Royal Navy on Heligoland of Peder Skram. Think the only ship the Royal Navy has in 1864 that can compete with Peder Skram is HMS Royal Oak (1862) unless i have checked wrong. Well with Your interest in Warships You may have a link to a RN photo archive? Just did a google search - no hit. The Peder Skram is 4 knots faster than Royal Oak and the 24cm Bofors L43/M06 guns would probably make it being hit at long range before it will be able to respond - and importantly - hit! Firing rate 3 shots a minute range 15,2 km.
So is Peder Skram going to stay near Heligoland, i doubt a certain naval battle is going to happen in 3 months time, but you never can be sure. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 10, 2023 10:42:48 GMT
Well with Your interest in Warships You may have a link to a RN photo archive? Just did a google search - no hit. The Peder Skram is 4 knots faster than Royal Oak and the 24cm Bofors L43/M06 guns would probably make it being hit at long range before it will be able to respond - and importantly - hit! Firing rate 3 shots a minute range 15,2 km.
So is Peder Skram going to stay near Heligoland, i doubt a certain naval battle is going to happen in 3 months time, but you never can be sure. For the moment Peder Skram is heading 1. Squadron in the North Sea and will stay in those water till Peace have been negotiated. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 10, 2023 10:43:05 GMT
London 17 April 1940/ 9 February 1864
Rear-Admiral Evers at the British Foreign Office looked very satisfied. The radio had worked flawlessly and messages passed.
The British had looked very surprised but couldn't deny the answer DID come from RN Heligoland. The Base Commanders personal reply in RN code indeniable.
Lord Russel asked the Danish Delegation to enter his office.
Rear-Admiral Evers then asked the RN Admiral to be his guest aboard HDMS Niels Juel for lunch which was accepted and it would be a very curious and asking guest with Evers answering all.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 10, 2023 11:11:17 GMT
So is Peder Skram going to stay near Heligoland, i doubt a certain naval battle is going to happen in 3 months time, but you never can be sure. For the moment Peder Skram is heading 1. Squadron in the North Sea and will stay in those water till Peace have been negotiated. Question any 1864 Danish navy out there, there is HDMS Jylland that is used to shelter kids but in here glory time took part in the Battle of Heligoland on 9 May 1864, could she be transfered to them. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 10, 2023 11:12:00 GMT
Heligoland 17 April 1940/ 9 February 1864 The British Navy Station at Heligoland had for some days observed the Danish Warships patrolling the waters; obviously no threat as the interest were to the German coast but of course reported to the Admiralty – no such ships had been seen before. This morning the larger of the ships apparently the Squadron Leader came within 3 miles of the island to launch its Motorlaunch which headed to the Port. The Motorlaunch of HDMS Peder Skram approached Heligoland harbour as the Royal Marines observed it. They were hailed in perfect English though with an American accent when the Motorlaunch came to the Quay - ”Midshipman(Ensign) Birksted, Royal Danish Navy” the Officer presented himself ”to meet the Commander Heligoland.” The Marines escorted the Danish Officer and his aide who carried a large bag to HQ where he was asked to take a seat and wait. Only a short wait and Birksted was called to the commander. Explaining his mission Birksted was allowed to have his Radio Specialist set up his apparatus and send a recognition signal. Only a few moments later a short code came through. Acknowledged another longer signal came through – transcribed the signal was handed to Birksted who handed it to the RN commander who went to the door called out and handed the signal to an Officer. It was only a few minutes before the Officer returned handed the RN commander a note and left. The RN commander looked at Birksted and said: ”If You please send this” handing him a short ciffer note. Birksted handed the note to the Radio Specialist who immediatedly had the Morsekey ticking. Within a minute an acknowledgement came through. The RN commander looked at Birksted: ”Now tell me the story.. orderly, Tea Navy Style.” Birksted then related the past 8 days – among these 3 days of constant airoperations and the last two of reconnaisance flights which he personally had been party to as a Pilot of 1. Navy Air Flotilla flying a Heinkel He8 which at times had been viewed from Heligoland. It was a very interested RN commander listening. Wonder if there are a photos being taken by the Royal Navy on Heligoland of Peder Skram. Think the only ship the Royal Navy has in 1864 that can compete with Peder Skram is HMS Royal Oak (1862) unless i have checked wrong.
While Danmark isn't exactly a naval super-power in 1940 there has been nearly 60 years of very rapid development since 1864 so I doubt any combination of ships available could compete with the Peder Skram other than possibly being able to trap it in closed waters and overwhelm it by sheer weight of numbers.
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 10, 2023 11:52:38 GMT
For the moment Peder Skram is heading 1. Squadron in the North Sea and will stay in those water till Peace have been negotiated. Question any 1864 Danish navy out there, there is HDMS Jylland that is used to shelter kids but in here glory time took part in the Battle of Heligoland on 9 May 1864, could she be transfered to them. Apart from the ones in Schleswig waters, the ones in the Wadden Sea and the Scooner in West Indies no others were ISOT. Though one more ship will join the Navy - just have to write a short entry on this..  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 10, 2023 11:54:10 GMT
Question any 1864 Danish navy out there, there is HDMS Jylland that is used to shelter kids but in here glory time took part in the Battle of Heligoland on 9 May 1864, could she be transfered to them. Apart from the ones in Schleswig waters, the ones in the Wadden Sea and the Scooner in West Indies no others were ISOT. Though one more ship will join the Navy - just have to write a short entry on this.. So no need for Jylland which in 1940 is in no state to be used in combat. |
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