lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,999
Likes: 49,404
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 1, 2023 13:34:22 GMT
First another good update, secondly, any lose of a plane is huge either by accident ore combat, i do not know if 1940 Denmark can replace what they lose in aircraft. There will be some difficulty but the Navy Works will be able to build new Aircraft and Engines. The difficulty mainly being import of metals but we'll look to Sweden and Britain. They might want to something in return. Also, do all patants created between 1865 and 1940 now belong to the 1940 Danish Patent and Trademark Office ore how it was called in 1940.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,110
|
Post by 575 on Apr 1, 2023 13:59:21 GMT
There will be some difficulty but the Navy Works will be able to build new Aircraft and Engines. The difficulty mainly being import of metals but we'll look to Sweden and Britain. They might want to something in return. Also, do all patants created between 1865 and 1940 now belong to the 1940 Danish Patent and Trademark Office ore how it was called in 1940.
Oh they will get something in return. Modern medicine for man and beast - the latter a huge part of 1864 society, knowledge of times that might have been, scientific advances, wireless telegraphy and radio at some point, internal combustion engine.
Regarding patents I think that have been discussed to death here and there - consensus sort of being "if they hadn't invented it by year of arrival (1864) they can't claim patent and trademark. Fortunately Denmark have its great inventor Ellehammer that dabbled in this and that.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,999
Likes: 49,404
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 1, 2023 14:03:01 GMT
Regarding patents I think that have been discussed to death here and there - consensus sort of being "if they hadn't invented it by year of arrival (1864) they can't claim patent and trademark. Fortunately Denmark have its great inventor Ellehammer that dabbled in this and that.
So Danish 1940 company's can buy it from the Danish Patent and Trademark Office (which is good for the 1940 Danish treasury) and claim it as their own,
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,110
|
Post by 575 on Apr 1, 2023 14:14:18 GMT
Regarding patents I think that have been discussed to death here and there - consensus sort of being "if they hadn't invented it by year of arrival (1864) they can't claim patent and trademark. Fortunately Denmark have its great inventor Ellehammer that dabbled in this and that.
So Danish 1940 company's can buy it from the Danish Patent and Trademark Office (which is good for the 1940 Danish treasury) and claim it as their own,
1880 the Danish Patent Commission was set up by 1924 becoming the Patentdirectory. This handle Danish Patents and Trademarks so I won't expect companies to be able to just buy or claim former foreign patents and trademarks for themselves. However I would expect the State to possibly sell such foreing Patents and trademarks to Danish companies - that would make for even more income. You really ought to get into such discussions - I tend to stay out of it, not really my interest but of course there's a source of income.
And then there's the question of Danish subsidiaries companies handling/producing foreign patent-trademark stuff that would/could claim that for themselves - which of course would warrant law ruling - the State still wants its share.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 2, 2023 4:53:43 GMT
On we go: 9 April 1940 around 0001 AM Denmark is ISOT to February 1, 1864 just as Prussian and Austrian troops begin crossing the Eider River/Kiel Canal into the Duchy of Slesvig to execute the decision of the German Confederation to incorporate Slesvig and Holsten because of the Danish inability to govern the Duchies as stipulated i.e. making for the equal representation of the Duchies along the Kingdom in Government. One slight quibble with this excellent ISOT. How is Denmark supposed to operate internal combustion engines and electrical systems in 1864? As I am discovering in "Thunder and Lightning", it is not easy to push things even a half decade sooner than they normally could have happened, or to take different more audacious actions because the means are not built or existent yet.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,110
|
Post by 575 on Apr 2, 2023 11:23:53 GMT
On we go: 9 April 1940 around 0001 AM Denmark is ISOT to February 1, 1864 just as Prussian and Austrian troops begin crossing the Eider River/Kiel Canal into the Duchy of Slesvig to execute the decision of the German Confederation to incorporate Slesvig and Holsten because of the Danish inability to govern the Duchies as stipulated i.e. making for the equal representation of the Duchies along the Kingdom in Government. One slight quibble with this excellent ISOT. How is Denmark supposed to operate internal combustion engines and electrical systems in 1864? As I am discovering in "Thunder and Lightning", it is not easy to push things even a half decade sooner than they normally could have happened, or to take different more audacious actions because the means are not built or existent yet.
Thanks!
Within Denmarks:
ICE - get crude oil from US/Romania and refine it at Kalundborg Refinery, Sjælland, Denmark. Alternately get a line running on producing Ellehammers Kerosene carburettor which had been tested in Cars and Aircraft. Electrical systems - get Coal from Britain.
Anywhere else - well set up a large refinery and all the other needed factories in the US or wherever possible - but really:
Longterm prospect - indeed; but am only at day 5 so its going to take a lot of time.. at best spreading from Denmark in narrow ribbles to those well of of 1864 though still longterm able to get Kerosene or Gasoline/Diesel from Denmark in canister - which will limit operational time and range.
The first beneficiary will be the future Duchy to the south of Denmarks though even that is way away.
Realistically:
Initially better foodstuffs, better veterinarian services, better healthcare, better steamlocomotives and shipengines which may work in 1864 without ICE or Electricity. Wireless telegraphy to those really wanted for alliance.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 2, 2023 12:32:03 GMT
One slight quibble with this excellent ISOT. How is Denmark supposed to operate internal combustion engines and electrical systems in 1864? As I am discovering in "Thunder and Lightning", it is not easy to push things even a half decade sooner than they normally could have happened, or to take different more audacious actions because the means are not built or existent yet.
Thanks!
Within Denmarks:
ICE - get crude oil from US/Romania and refine it at Kalundborg Refinery, Sjælland, Denmark. Alternately get a line running on producing Ellehammers Kerosene carburettor which had been tested in Cars and Aircraft. Electrical systems - get Coal from Britain.
Anywhere else - well set up a large refinery and all the other needed factories in the US or wherever possible - but really:
Longterm prospect - indeed; but am only at day 5 so its going to take a lot of time.. at best spreading from Denmark in narrow ribbles to those well of of 1864 though still longterm able to get Kerosene or Gasoline/Diesel from Denmark in canister - which will limit operational time and range.
The first beneficiary will be the future Duchy to the south of Denmarks though even that is way away.
Realistically:
Initially better foodstuffs, better veterinarian services, better healthcare, better steamlocomotives and shipengines which may work in 1864 without ICE or Electricity. Wireless telegraphy to those really wanted for alliance.
Let us take some particularly tough examples. In the air, let us look at the Bristol Bulldog. or Gloster Gauntlet. Both planes used relatively reliable Bristol 9 cylinder radial aero engines, rated for about 30 hours flight aloft before engines had to be dismounted, torn down and rebuilt from spare parts. Both planes used 7.7 mm Vickers machine guns. Both planes used fabric over tube metal construction extensively and both planes to be built or repaired required welding of steel tubes for internal structure, HTS steel wires, plus rubber tires.On land, the Sweish Pansarbil armored had 5,000 or so individual parts (It is Swedish, which means it is German engineering with a Swedish accent. (Joke).M.). The rubber tire problem exists, and the Volvo 6 cylinder gasoline engine, while reliable is an expletive deleted to repair when it does break. The Madsen cannon uses shells and propellants that Denmark can make, but only in small quantities. The machine gun is Czech origin and is hopeless because Mauser has not invented the bullet, yet. Pistol technology, probably with revolvers and maybe simpler Browning autmatics, the Danish industrial base is okay with the available 1860s steels. Rifles, the Krag offers a terrible option. it is actually about the worst of the first generation of smokeless powder bolt action rifles. You would want to replace it soonest with the Mauser in that reverse engineered 7.92 Mauser bullet bore size the Germans have not invented yet. Machine pistol? The Suomi requires a spring nobody in 1864 knows how to make yet. Does Denmark have a steel plant with a Bessemer process and access to Minnesota meteor iron? Swedish meteor iron will do in a pinch. Also you need Danish commandoes to kidnap Adolf Martens. Richard Stribick has not been born yet. Machine guns? Brownings. SIMPLE except for the springs. Then you have to do what you did for machine pistols. Kidnap that German and invent the electric furnace. As far as cannon are concerned, either send your best and brightest metallurgest to America or Britain (Bessemer) and teach them how to make modern gunmetal or somehow overrun Krupp's factories in a Danish offensive inside a year. Your existent artillery will wear their bores out by then. If you can buy five years, you can fix a lot of these problems, behind a wall of machine guns and artillery, but you need two things: a. an ally to provide materials. b. time to stand up a WWI level steampunk tech. Actually ELECTRICITY will be the least of your worries, as the basics of what you need for it Tesla invented by 1895 and you have and can make it at least at the small scale factory shop level. That includes key send and receive radio, though telephonic voice might be a little bit of work. .
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,110
|
Post by 575 on Apr 2, 2023 13:39:11 GMT
Thanks!
Within Denmarks:
ICE - get crude oil from US/Romania and refine it at Kalundborg Refinery, Sjælland, Denmark. Alternately get a line running on producing Ellehammers Kerosene carburettor which had been tested in Cars and Aircraft. Electrical systems - get Coal from Britain.
Anywhere else - well set up a large refinery and all the other needed factories in the US or wherever possible - but really:
Longterm prospect - indeed; but am only at day 5 so its going to take a lot of time.. at best spreading from Denmark in narrow ribbles to those well of of 1864 though still longterm able to get Kerosene or Gasoline/Diesel from Denmark in canister - which will limit operational time and range.
The first beneficiary will be the future Duchy to the south of Denmarks though even that is way away.
Realistically:
Initially better foodstuffs, better veterinarian services, better healthcare, better steamlocomotives and shipengines which may work in 1864 without ICE or Electricity. Wireless telegraphy to those really wanted for alliance.
Let us take some particularly tough examples. In the air, let us look at the Bristol Bulldog. or Gloster Gauntlet. Both planes used relatively reliable Bristol 9 cylinder radial aero engines, rated for about 30 hours flight aloft before engines had to be dismounted, torn down and rebuilt from spare parts. Both planes used 7.7 mm Vickers machine guns. Both planes used fabric over tube metal construction extensively and both planes to be built or repaired required welding of steel tubes for internal structure, HTS steel wires, plus rubber tires.On land, the Sweish Pansarbil armored had 5,000 or so individual parts (It is Swedish, which means it is German engineering with a Swedish accent. (Joke).M.). The rubber tire problem exists, and the Volvo 6 cylinder gasoline engine, while reliable is an expletive deleted to repair when it does break. The Madsen cannon uses shells and propellants that Denmark can make, but only in small quantities. The machine gun is Czech origin and is hopeless because Mauser has not invented the bullet, yet. Pistol technology, probably with revolvers and maybe simpler Browning autmatics, the Danish industrial base is okay with the available 1860s steels. Rifles, the Krag offers a terrible option. it is actually about the worst of the first generation of smokeless powder bolt action rifles. You would want to replace it soonest with the Mauser in that reverse engineered 7.92 Mauser bullet bore size the Germans have not invented yet. Machine pistol? The Suomi requires a spring nobody in 1864 knows how to make yet. Does Denmark have a steel plant with a Bessemer process and access to Minnesota meteor iron? Swedish meteor iron will do in a pinch. Also you need Danish commandoes to kidnap Adolf Martens. Richard Stribick has not been born yet. Machine guns? Brownings. SIMPLE except for the springs. Then you have to do what you did for machine pistols. Kidnap that German and invent the electric furnace. As far as cannon are concerned, either send your best and brightest metallurgest to America or Britain (Bessemer) and teach them how to make modern gunmetal or somehow overrun Krupp's factories in a Danish offensive inside a year. Your existent artillery will wear their bores out by then. If you can buy five years, you can fix a lot of these problems, behind a wall of machine guns and artillery, but you need two things: a. an ally to provide materials. b. time to stand up a WWI level steampunk tech. Actually ELECTRICITY will be the least of your worries, as the basics of what you need for it Tesla invented by 1895 and you have and can make it at least at the small scale factory shop level. That includes key send and receive radio, though telephonic voice might be a little bit of work. . Will the Siemens-Martin process work? Burmeister & Wain ship, steamengine, dieselengine, ironworks was doing its steelfabrication with such. Bofors was working with that technique - just across the Oeresound from Denmarks - from 1869. Prior to that 1857 the Swedes had begun developing the process which Göran Fredrik Göransson build a Bessemerconverter 1862-3. I think I let the Swedes do the job in addition to Burmeister & Wain - better stay good neighbours.
The Navy Works had been working a lot in steel. It was building the P4/34 all metal aircraft for the Danish Navy. It could weld steeltubing. The Army Airtroops works had begun building the Fokker G-1 which was a composite wooden - steeltubing - duraluminium construction. It was also building the Fokker D-XXI fighter aircraft also a composite wooden - steeltubing - duraluminium construct. Both had previously worked on fabric covered aircraft. The Navy Works had constructed its own aircraft radials and in-line engines. The Army was also having Soumi submachineguns building - don't know who supplied the springs or if they were locally made. All Danish armaments factories continued working post occupation having to source raw materials mainly from Sweden as the Germans for some reason was using all their own.
I am very much aware of the need for rubber. Have to talk to the Brits.
Hmm, Adolf Martens is 14 years old - lets entice him to work in Denmark with a scholarship. If it's needed.
I have no actual ideas of copying the Landsverk at the moment - right now its about getting my nation back on its feet. May do so at a later date.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,110
|
Post by 575 on Apr 2, 2023 14:12:14 GMT
Copenhagen 14 April 1940/6 February 1864 Government decide to lease a Fokker F-VIIa of DDL for dropping leaflets on primarily Berlin. In days to follow leaflets are dropped on Berlin, Hanover, Bremen, Hamburg, Oldenburg, Schwerin, Kiel and Rendsburg too; telling of the Austro - Prussian defeat in Schleswig. Danish Government also decide to lease a DDL Fokker F-XII to fly a Delegation to London; part of the Delegation will be travelling aboard Navy Ship Niels Juel from Esbjerg. The Fokker F-XII was decided upon due to its impressive size but also its ability to operate from a poor field. The Niels Juel would carry fuel for the aircraft. As the route would primarily be over the North Sea Lieutenantgeneral Gørtz, Adjudant to His Majesty King Christian X, was to travel as soon as possible to Den Haag to meet King Willem II to get permission for the aircraft to enter Netherlands airspace before crossing to Britain. Along the General a Radiooperator would travel to transmit the outcome of the meeting with King Willem. The General would be flown by the DDL Fokker F-VIIa to Den Haag. Danish Navy ships of the 1. Squadron would orderede to post along the route to send a guiding signal to lead the aircraft safely to the destination. The ships was ordered off to their destinations immediately. The Niels Juel would arrive at Esbjerg early on the morning the next day and then await the arrival of the shipborne delegation and aircraftfuel before leaving for London. The Delegation would ask Britain to host Peace Negotiations with the German Confederation but also include the trade delegation already decided to go to London to secure Coal for agricultural trade with Medical knowledge and treatment as an extra should things come to a deadlock. Further items to be included would depend on Government accept due to which a Radio set and Radiooperators would go along the Delegation to set up at the Danish Embassy.
Fokker F-XII
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 2, 2023 14:12:58 GMT
Will the Siemens-Martin process work? Burmeister & Wain ship, steamengine, dieselengine, ironworks was doing its steelfabrication with such. Bofors was working with that technique - just across the Oeresound from Denmarks - from 1869. Prior to that 1857 the Swedes had begun developing the process which Göran Fredrik Göransson build a Bessemerconverter 1862-3. I think I let the Swedes do the job in addition to Burmeister & Wain - better stay good neighbours. You know your local history and infrastructure better than I do. I am more interested in that electric furnace, because temperature control is the big issue with the properties of steels. The formulas you can read out of a book, but the steel making itself is an art form. For example, to make face hardened cemented armor plate, there was not more than 100 people in the world who knew how to do it right in 1940. Britain had about 20 of them. The Germans had 14, The French had about 12. The Italians *(Ansaldo) had 6. The Japanese had 10. The Czechs (Skoda) had 10. That was 70 artists right there. The rest of the world had to share out the remaining 30 and of those 30 I believe Sweden had 2 and America had 8. Spring steel in bulk is harder to make.
The Navy Works had been working a lot in steel. It was building the P4/34 all metal aircraft for the Danish Navy. It could weld steeltubing. The Army Airtroops works had begun building the Fokker G-1 which was a composite wooden - steeltubing - duraluminium construction. It was also building the Fokker D-XXI fighter aircraft also a composite wooden - steeltubing - duraluminium construct. Both had previously worked on fabric covered aircraft. The Navy Works had constructed its own aircraft radials and in-line engines. The Army was also having Soumi submachineguns building - don't know who supplied the springs or if they were locally made. All Danish armaments factories continued working post occupation having to source raw materials mainly from Sweden as the Germans for some reason was using all their own. You will not see duraluminum alloy stock at all. Not possible before 1898 when Montag Kalibti invents the alloy in Lousiiana of all places. And at that it was a guarded commodity until about 1925. Denmark has how much stockpiled? Vulcanized rubber is possible from the United States as of 1850, so tires are not the problem, that I thought they would be. I still wonder where Denmark will source its aero engines. The ONLY source that springs to mind is Danish Automobile Building which was building busses between the wars. I think they imported the engines from Germany, but I am sure they had to either make the parts locally or kept parts on hand for buss engines. So... you have a "small" ICE engine basis.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,110
|
Post by 575 on Apr 2, 2023 14:28:31 GMT
Will the Siemens-Martin process work? Burmeister & Wain ship, steamengine, dieselengine, ironworks was doing its steelfabrication with such. Bofors was working with that technique - just across the Oeresound from Denmarks - from 1869. Prior to that 1857 the Swedes had begun developing the process which Göran Fredrik Göransson build a Bessemerconverter 1862-3. I think I let the Swedes do the job in addition to Burmeister & Wain - better stay good neighbours. You know your local history and infrastructure better than I do. I am more interested in that electric furnace, because temperature control is the big issue with the properties of steels. The formulas you can read out of a book, but the steel making itself is an art form. For example, to make face hardened cemented armor plate, there was not more than 100 people in the world who knew how to do it right in 1940. Britain had about 20 of them. The Germans had 14, The French had about 12. The Italians *(Ansaldo) had 6. The Japanese had 10. The Czechs (Skoda) had 10. That was 70 artists right there. The rest of the world had to share out the remaining 30 and of those 30 I believe Sweden had 2 and America had 8. Spring steel in bulk is harder to make.
The Navy Works had been working a lot in steel. It was building the P4/34 all metal aircraft for the Danish Navy. It could weld steeltubing. The Army Airtroops works had begun building the Fokker G-1 which was a composite wooden - steeltubing - duraluminium construction. It was also building the Fokker D-XXI fighter aircraft also a composite wooden - steeltubing - duraluminium construct. Both had previously worked on fabric covered aircraft. The Navy Works had constructed its own aircraft radials and in-line engines. The Army was also having Soumi submachineguns building - don't know who supplied the springs or if they were locally made. All Danish armaments factories continued working post occupation having to source raw materials mainly from Sweden as the Germans for some reason was using all their own. You will not duraluminum at all. Not possible before 1898 when Montag Kalibti invents the alloy in Lousiiana of all places. Vulcanized rubber is possible from the United States as of 1850, so tires are not the problem, I thought they would be. I still wonder where Denmark will source its aero engines. The ONLY source that springs to mind is Danish Automobile Building which was building busses between the wars. I think they imported the engines from Germany, but I am sure they had to either make the parts of kept parts on hands for buss engines. So... you have a "small" ICE engine basis.
Well the 2 Swedes are also right across the water. Navy Works used to buy the hardened steel in the USA so we need that expertise. The Swedes usually make fine Guns.
Then we'll do without duraluminium - aluminium as such may also be a problem though we have the Kryolite in South Greenland. Didn't produce aluminium ourselves.
Thanks for the info on vulcanized rubber.
Well I already wrote that - Navy Works will build them. Ellehammer may provide some expertise but the Navy Works did make a fine 6 in-line engine better than the Mercedes deliveries.. It also built radials during WWI though these weren't that special. They did the job in a time of need.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 2, 2023 14:36:28 GMT
Well the 2 Swedes are also right across the water. Kidnapping works. I read an alternate timeline where the Americans "entice" the Holek brothers to work for Colt in the 1930s. Aimo Lahti surely would be a prospect for "recruitment"?
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,110
|
Post by 575 on Apr 3, 2023 6:32:54 GMT
Copenhagen 14 April 1940/ 6 February 1864
Swedish Envoy Hamilton appeared at the Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs presenting his affidavit as outlined by the Swedish King Carl 15. The King empowered his Envoy to act on his behalf as already outlined during their talks. The King showed great interest in development of large caliber Artillery in cooperation with the Ammunitions Arsenalet, Danish Navy Works and Burmeister & Wain the latter the Danish manufacturer of steel with its Siemens-Martin furnace. On the Swedish side Bofors Works would participate as it already was working in the Siemens-Martin and Bessemeer process' to make steel as was the Burmeister & Wain Ship Yard.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,110
|
Post by 575 on Apr 3, 2023 6:34:44 GMT
Well the 2 Swedes are also right across the water. Kidnapping works. I read an alternate timeline where the Americans "entice" the Holek brothers to work for Colt in the 1930s. Aimo Lahti surely would be a prospect for "recruitment"?
It may though I didn't expect that from You!
However thanks for the input - made me look up a lot more about the industry of my nation 1940 and finally managed to get info on the Burmeister & Wain furnace.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 3, 2023 7:26:23 GMT
Kidnapping works. I read an alternate timeline where the Americans "entice" the Holek brothers to work for Colt in the 1930s. Aimo Lahti surely would be a prospect for "recruitment"?
It may though I didn't expect that from You!
However thanks for the input - made me look up a lot more about the industry of my nation 1940 and finally managed to get info on the Burmeister & Wain furnace.
I live in New York, the land of the Five Families and Donald Trump. Just because I despise criminals and their methods, does not mean that I am unaware of how they work. I take it, you have noticed how Irene Davenport works?
|
|