lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,997 
Likes: 49,398
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 23, 2023 19:49:40 GMT
Things were developing somewhat faster than General Prior had expected. Just be careful, going to fast might get you into trouble. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,837
Likes: 13,226
|
Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2023 12:46:42 GMT
I think the danger here is that the Prussian system seemed very good at learning from past wars - even when they won. Classic example was the Seven Weeks War. While they won it the Austrian artillery proved superior in a number of cases. As a result the Prussian army upgraded their entire artillery component and this proved very efficient against the French 4 years later.
Also I could see Berlin seeking to blame Vienna for the failure - as technically the Austrian emperor is still the head of the German Confederation - and hence escaping diplomatic fall out while using it as an excuse for greater moves towards national unity - but without Austrian involvement.
If Napoleon III is to be given any advice its probably best to start off with getting out of Mexico, or actually supporting Maximilian rather than various right wing groups as that's the only real chance of winning over the bulk of the Mexican population. Then possibly some advice about being careful of falling into any Prussian/Bismarck traps. Although since OTL he sat out of the 1866 conflict because he thought it would be a long drawn out thing which would weaken all the powers involved and that the Austrians and their allies would 'win' in the end. If he knows what actually 'happened' in both 1866 and 1870 then Paris might be willing to militarily support Vienna against any Prussian move. - Mind you that might backfire if he seeks to demand territory, especially German occupied lands, as part of the deal.
Denmark of 1940 suddenly finds it a top dog in the World - a position it isn't ready for assuming. Though Denmark have along story of being allied to France it also have one of being allied to Russian but it always wanted the British alliance. Only managed to get that a few times. I am really pondering what to do - writing the 1914 ISOT was rather easy as the USA at the time seemed the perfect ally and to some extend I'd say it is in this ISOT too. The 1940 Denmark lives in another world than the 1914 Denmark - it isn't ready to go on its own having lived for too long in the shadow of Germany and just recently acquired Sønderjylland/North Slesvig. In that TL I also had them allying sort of with Prussia against Austria by accepting the more of less OTL Bismarck proposal of referendum in Slesvig. But then 1914 Denmark had no part of Slesvig - 1940 Denmark has. This time its a question of discrediting Bismarck to the German Princes.
The 1940 Danes may be just as willing to sell their Machineguns as the 1914 ones were but then again they would be more cautious of who to sell to. USA is far off the Europeans around the corner. China is in civil war. So are Japan. Britain may be one. France I would say no. Dutch-Belgians yes. Sweden ok we need their iron and them to build large guns - Denmark never really got to that I discovered. At most we usen breech mechanism or sliding block from older guns to build more modern ones.
Scandinavism - the Swedish King was against it viewing it as treason by the Danish Politicians proposing such 1864 and the 1940 Politicians don't want it. Independent Norway - well Denmark may well support that if a Danish Prince end up on the throne and because of more brotherly love going from Copenhagen to Oslo than the other way round!
The big problem with any support for Bismarck's ideas is that it might rescue his career and that could be dangerous for everybody so think better to have him discredited. However it might be an option to end the war quickly. A lot would depend on what the current Danish government wants and the actual demographics of the region. Do they really want to maintain a significant German minority, which will presumably be a majority in some areas when they know that the nationalist genie is out of the bottle and even if Denmark can defeat a German effort to change this now that's unlikely to last more than a couple of decades?
In terms of arms sales the UK and US are probably the safest bets as their both fairly stable states, with neither having much interest in conquests in Europe and Britain definitely having an interest in maintaining a high level of stability and peace there. However such weapons are likely to have a bad impact for the native populations their likely to be used against. Not sure what 1940 Denmark would feel about speeding up such conquests? True the colonial expansion is fairly slow at the moment - with the scramble for Africa yet to begin and possibly might be largely avoided here and the US in terms of further conquests only really has Hawaii and the Philippines to come. However the arrival of 1940 Denmark and possibly especially the information that it has could change that? Would you get an earlier scramble for colonies? Would the US seek to be more expansive - although probably not for a decade or two after its own civil war?
Norway is politically part of Sweden now - although not sure how the Norwegians felt about this status? However seeking to separate it from Sweden would presumably not only upset Sweden, which could be an important economic trade partner and is likely to be perceived badly by other European powers. Its one thing to use their new strength to defend their lands and interests. Its another if they start changing borders, especially if using force.
PS - from reading the post about the latest fighting unless the Austrians and/or Prussians are willing to commit substantially more forces it sounds like the fighting is likely to be over soon, with an overwhelming victory for the Danes.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
|
Post by 575 on Mar 24, 2023 16:36:59 GMT
Denmark of 1940 suddenly finds it a top dog in the World - a position it isn't ready for assuming. Though Denmark have along story of being allied to France it also have one of being allied to Russian but it always wanted the British alliance. Only managed to get that a few times. I am really pondering what to do - writing the 1914 ISOT was rather easy as the USA at the time seemed the perfect ally and to some extend I'd say it is in this ISOT too. The 1940 Denmark lives in another world than the 1914 Denmark - it isn't ready to go on its own having lived for too long in the shadow of Germany and just recently acquired Sønderjylland/North Slesvig. In that TL I also had them allying sort of with Prussia against Austria by accepting the more of less OTL Bismarck proposal of referendum in Slesvig. But then 1914 Denmark had no part of Slesvig - 1940 Denmark has. This time its a question of discrediting Bismarck to the German Princes.
The 1940 Danes may be just as willing to sell their Machineguns as the 1914 ones were but then again they would be more cautious of who to sell to. USA is far off the Europeans around the corner. China is in civil war. So are Japan. Britain may be one. France I would say no. Dutch-Belgians yes. Sweden ok we need their iron and them to build large guns - Denmark never really got to that I discovered. At most we usen breech mechanism or sliding block from older guns to build more modern ones.
Scandinavism - the Swedish King was against it viewing it as treason by the Danish Politicians proposing such 1864 and the 1940 Politicians don't want it. Independent Norway - well Denmark may well support that if a Danish Prince end up on the throne and because of more brotherly love going from Copenhagen to Oslo than the other way round!
The big problem with any support for Bismarck's ideas is that it might rescue his career and that could be dangerous for everybody so think better to have him discredited. However it might be an option to end the war quickly. A lot would depend on what the current Danish government wants and the actual demographics of the region. Do they really want to maintain a significant German minority, which will presumably be a majority in some areas when they know that the nationalist genie is out of the bottle and even if Denmark can defeat a German effort to change this now that's unlikely to last more than a couple of decades?
In terms of arms sales the UK and US are probably the safest bets as their both fairly stable states, with neither having much interest in conquests in Europe and Britain definitely having an interest in maintaining a high level of stability and peace there. However such weapons are likely to have a bad impact for the native populations their likely to be used against. Not sure what 1940 Denmark would feel about speeding up such conquests? True the colonial expansion is fairly slow at the moment - with the scramble for Africa yet to begin and possibly might be largely avoided here and the US in terms of further conquests only really has Hawaii and the Philippines to come. However the arrival of 1940 Denmark and possibly especially the information that it has could change that? Would you get an earlier scramble for colonies? Would the US seek to be more expansive - although probably not for a decade or two after its own civil war?
Norway is politically part of Sweden now - although not sure how the Norwegians felt about this status? However seeking to separate it from Sweden would presumably not only upset Sweden, which could be an important economic trade partner and is likely to be perceived badly by other European powers. Its one thing to use their new strength to defend their lands and interests. Its another if they start changing borders, especially if using force.
PS - from reading the post about the latest fighting unless the Austrians and/or Prussians are willing to commit substantially more forces it sounds like the fighting is likely to be over soon, with an overwhelming victory for the Danes.
stevep;
Bismarcks ideas won't be supported in any way - the 1914 ISOT was about settling the language driven etnic divide in Schleswig - this 1940 ISOT is about stopping Bismarck. Denmark of 1940 doesn't want any more ethnic Germans and filtering the Danish speakers from the German speaking will be some effort. It can create a huge internal discussion in Denmark and turn the political landscape upside down leaving as always sanity in a land far, far away.. guess You get the gist.
So the now total defeat of Prussia and Austria will be the status to negotiate upon - however Denmark will need to negotiate the German Confederation NOT Prussia or Austria as such. I guess the German Princes will like this approach a lot. The problem will be to have the Great Powers join in the fun - actually in this wein the Emperor Franz Josef should represent the German Confederation. Have no idea if its doable it would depend upon the German Princes. I could see something like - Prussian King William dismiss Bismarck for wasting effectively 3 Corps. The German Princes demand Austria to run negotiations??? I will also seek council on AHcom JanWellem is the one there.
Denmark see USA and Britain the powers to sell arms to if any. Sweden will be a natural as Denmark need it to forge big gun tubes. Does Denmark think anything about Britain using the arms for colonial conquest - I actually intend to at first sell wireless telegraphy to the British. I can see the Admirals' mouths water - keeping tally on all ships at all times! Denmarks return - coal, possibly animal fodder.
The USA - win the Civil War. Denmark and USA had a common interest OTL in doing so as both CSA and Prussia was trying to acquire warships from Britain and France to fight their adversary's. It didn't crystallize into any form of alliance but here it may. Madsen Machineguns and Krag-Jørgensen Rifles. Denmarks return - oil, cereals, copper, zinc, lead etc. I am unsure the USA would even go for colonies ITTL but only time will tell.
Sweden-Norway; Denmark isn't up to break up the Union though there is an old bond between Denmark and Norway but that was with Norway as the Personal Demesne of the Danish King to ensure his lineage. Denmark was orginally an elective Kingdom which only changed with the acquiring of Norway and thus claimed inheritance of power. The Norwegians resented the Danish control - Norwegian Bokmål is actually written/spoken Danish while New Norwegian is building upon Norwegian dialekt to form a language divergent from oppressive Danish and Bokmål. 1864 is only 50 years since Norway was separated from Denmark so I guess the Norwegians won't like the Danes to help them get independence - though of course it is tricky. My take would be not. Thus Norway and Sweden stay in Union - Denmark trade with Sweden and is willing to sell both cereals - Sweden had a constant difficulty in feeding itself and get Artillery guns instead. The Swedes will of course also get those guns. Denmark won't be putting pressure on Sweden to dissolve the Union.
Any input is appreciated. 
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
|
Post by 575 on Mar 24, 2023 16:59:28 GMT
Telegramme from Stockholm 5 February 1864 9PM
Carl Hamilton to Premier Stauning: ”Meeting King Carl 15 today went really well. King happy Danish Government abandoned Scandinavism. King asked me for his Envoy to Copenhagen. Returning tomorrow by aircraft. Hamilton”
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
|
Post by 575 on Mar 24, 2023 17:21:31 GMT
After action report 5 February 1864
The Enemy had been chased off Slesvig soil or forced to surrender.
Fieldmarshall Wrangel's HQ had been intercepted by Jutish Dragoons Regiment moving south towards Ostsee Canal for crossing it at the old Battleground 1813 at Sehested where the German – Russian Army had been defeated.
Quite the spot for the Prussian Fieldmarshall to surrender his sidearm – somehow he seemed to be mentally in 1813 as he surrendered the German – Russian Army to Prince Friedrich Carl of the Danish Auxillary Corps to Marshal Davout's North German Army.
The Fieldmarshall was taken by Carriage to Schleswig to meet General de Meza on the request of General Essemann.
All three enemy Corps had been defeated in battle. Only a few Austrian and Prussians Guards Battalions had made it across the Ostsee Canal to Holstein the majority of troops had been taken Prisoner of War and were marched off for Kochendorf as an internment camp.
The 1864 Army had been in great spirit and deployed to guard the Ostsee Canal. 1. Division had crossed the Slie to detach the 1. Brigade to guard Kochdorf camp as it was termed. 2. moved south to join 3. Brigade North of Kiel to Guard the length from there to Sehested.
Within a week the Danish Armies had defeated all three Corps of the Executing Powers Austria and Prussia.
The Prussian 1. Corps had actually consisted of the support services of two Corps and a Division from each to form one. Basically Prussia had lost major elements of three Corps.
General Prior put the report down – now it would be time for the Politicians to do their job.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,837
Likes: 13,226
|
Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2023 20:45:23 GMT
The big problem with any support for Bismarck's ideas is that it might rescue his career and that could be dangerous for everybody so think better to have him discredited. However it might be an option to end the war quickly. A lot would depend on what the current Danish government wants and the actual demographics of the region. Do they really want to maintain a significant German minority, which will presumably be a majority in some areas when they know that the nationalist genie is out of the bottle and even if Denmark can defeat a German effort to change this now that's unlikely to last more than a couple of decades?
In terms of arms sales the UK and US are probably the safest bets as their both fairly stable states, with neither having much interest in conquests in Europe and Britain definitely having an interest in maintaining a high level of stability and peace there. However such weapons are likely to have a bad impact for the native populations their likely to be used against. Not sure what 1940 Denmark would feel about speeding up such conquests? True the colonial expansion is fairly slow at the moment - with the scramble for Africa yet to begin and possibly might be largely avoided here and the US in terms of further conquests only really has Hawaii and the Philippines to come. However the arrival of 1940 Denmark and possibly especially the information that it has could change that? Would you get an earlier scramble for colonies? Would the US seek to be more expansive - although probably not for a decade or two after its own civil war?
Norway is politically part of Sweden now - although not sure how the Norwegians felt about this status? However seeking to separate it from Sweden would presumably not only upset Sweden, which could be an important economic trade partner and is likely to be perceived badly by other European powers. Its one thing to use their new strength to defend their lands and interests. Its another if they start changing borders, especially if using force.
PS - from reading the post about the latest fighting unless the Austrians and/or Prussians are willing to commit substantially more forces it sounds like the fighting is likely to be over soon, with an overwhelming victory for the Danes.
stevep;
Bismarcks ideas won't be supported in any way - the 1914 ISOT was about settling the language driven etnic divide in Schleswig - this 1940 ISOT is about stopping Bismarck. Denmark of 1940 doesn't want any more ethnic Germans and filtering the Danish speakers from the German speaking will be some effort. It can create a huge internal discussion in Denmark and turn the political landscape upside down leaving as always sanity in a land far, far away.. guess You get the gist.
So the now total defeat of Prussia and Austria will be the status to negotiate upon - however Denmark will need to negotiate the German Confederation NOT Prussia or Austria as such. I guess the German Princes will like this approach a lot. The problem will be to have the Great Powers join in the fun - actually in this wein the Emperor Franz Josef should represent the German Confederation. Have no idea if its doable it would depend upon the German Princes. I could see something like - Prussian King William dismiss Bismarck for wasting effectively 3 Corps. The German Princes demand Austria to run negotiations??? I will also seek council on AHcom JanWellem is the one there.
Denmark see USA and Britain the powers to sell arms to if any. Sweden will be a natural as Denmark need it to forge big gun tubes. Does Denmark think anything about Britain using the arms for colonial conquest - I actually intend to at first sell wireless telegraphy to the British. I can see the Admirals' mouths water - keeping tally on all ships at all times! Denmarks return - coal, possibly animal fodder.
The USA - win the Civil War. Denmark and USA had a common interest OTL in doing so as both CSA and Prussia was trying to acquire warships from Britain and France to fight their adversary's. It didn't crystallize into any form of alliance but here it may. Madsen Machineguns and Krag-Jørgensen Rifles. Denmarks return - oil, cereals, copper, zinc, lead etc. I am unsure the USA would even go for colonies ITTL but only time will tell.
Sweden-Norway; Denmark isn't up to break up the Union though there is an old bond between Denmark and Norway but that was with Norway as the Personal Demesne of the Danish King to ensure his lineage. Denmark was orginally an elective Kingdom which only changed with the acquiring of Norway and thus claimed inheritance of power. The Norwegians resented the Danish control - Norwegian Bokmål is actually written/spoken Danish while New Norwegian is building upon Norwegian dialekt to form a language divergent from oppressive Danish and Bokmål. 1864 is only 50 years since Norway was separated from Denmark so I guess the Norwegians won't like the Danes to help them get independence - though of course it is tricky. My take would be not. Thus Norway and Sweden stay in Union - Denmark trade with Sweden and is willing to sell both cereals - Sweden had a constant difficulty in feeding itself and get Artillery guns instead. The Swedes will of course also get those guns. Denmark won't be putting pressure on Sweden to dissolve the Union.
Any input is appreciated.
Well the two key uncertainties will be how much info leaks to whom and how quickly/in what form plus how do people respond to both what they hear of the 'future' coupled with how much recent events change things.
To take an example news of Prussia uniting the bulk of the German states into the most powerful state in Europe - both militarily and economically - could make a lot of Prussians and a fair number of other German nationalists want to still do that. On the other hand Austria, the leaders of many of the German states and assorted foreign states would oppose that, especially given the bloodbath that was WWI and what is known about WWII so far.
How the assorted imperial dynasties respond to what details they get of WWI and the removal of 4 of them could also be a factor. For instance Russia could see attempts at even greater repression and opposition to any political reform while how Franz Joseph reacts in Austria I don't know. Plus the oncoming [possibly] war with Prussia and then the Hungrarian unrest that leads to the double Monarchy with a lot of power passed to Budapest.
In terms of the OTL scramble for Africa from ~1880 it could be triggered earlier, if assorted nations think they must ensure they get their OTL assets - and possibly more - before anyone else gets them or there could be some understanding that many of them were resource sinks which could delay it. I suspect that Leopold's nasty Congo Free State isn't going to emerge here but if not what happens to the Congo basin which is rich in raw materials. - There's a possibility that to avoid squabbles nations possibly propose that the 1940 situation is repeated - other than possibly the Congo - but others could think that unjust to them.
With the US its going to end the civil war a bit earlier and then be a lot better equipped to complete the crushing of the plains Indians. You might see some reaction to news of political and other developments. For instance does it impose immigration restrictions earlier than ~1920, later or not at all? What does the 1864 US establishment think of what the Danes can tell them of Jim Crow and the brutal treatment of freed blacks? How many seek to prevent that or decide its the easiest way to secure the renewed loyalty of the defeated southern whites? How do they react to news that a war with Spain gains them Puerto Rico and the Philippines as well as Guam and Wake? Or that they bought Alaska - which apart from the Yukon gold rush in the 1890's is probably still seen as a remote icy wilderness? Or whether Russia would be as willing to sell TTL?
For Britain many will be glad that the empire is even larger in 1940 than in 1864 but at least some will pick up about the way Britain is being overtaken by other nations in many activities. Also news of a much broader franchise, including votes for women are going to have advocates for both advancing such activities and delaying/seeking to prevent them.
Many other factors that assorted nations and people will have to consider. Also every significant figure is likely to be able to find out about what the future says about them and seeking to make things better - at least whatever they think is better for them and their interests. Basically the technology that Denmark can offer is probably going to be far less disruptive than the knowledge that is likely to leak out - especially where appropriate from assorted diplomats, ambassadors and traders who were in Denmark at that point.
Just about anything could happen.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,837
Likes: 13,226
|
Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2023 20:51:47 GMT
After action report 5 February 1864 The Enemy had been chased off Slesvig soil or forced to surrender. Fieldmarshall Wrangel's HQ had been intercepted by Jutish Dragoons Regiment moving south towards Ostsee Canal for crossing it at the old Battleground 1813 at Sehested where the German – Russian Army had been defeated. Quite the spot for the Prussian Fieldmarshall to surrender his sidearm – somehow he seemed to be mentally in 1813 as he surrendered the German – Russian Army to Prince Friedrich Carl of the Danish Auxillary Corps to Marshal Davout's North German Army.The Fieldmarshall was taken by Carriage to Schleswig to meet General de Meza on the request of General Essemann. All three enemy Corps had been defeated in battle. Only a few Austrian and Prussians Guards Battalions had made it across the Ostsee Canal to Holstein the majority of troops had been taken Prisoner of War and were marched off for Kochendorf as an internment camp. The 1864 Army had been in great spirit and deployed to guard the Ostsee Canal. 1. Division had crossed the Slie to detach the 1. Brigade to guard Kochdorf camp as it was termed. 2. moved south to join 3. Brigade North of Kiel to Guard the length from there to Sehested. Within a week the Danish Armies had defeated all three Corps of the Executing Powers Austria and Prussia. The Prussian 1. Corps had actually consisted of the support services of two Corps and a Division from each to form one. Basically Prussia had lost major elements of three Corps. General Prior put the report down – now it would be time for the Politicians to do their job.
I think that sentence may be a bit confused - but then that could be referring to the mental state of Fieldmarshall Wrangel? Didn't know of a battle in 1813 at that state but it sounds like your army did pretty damned well but are you talking about the surrender in 1813 or in 1864 as there seems to be details and names from both?
Sounds like the Prussians who still have a significantly smaller force than the Austrians had been hit especially hard although a lot of the men are probably prisoners rather than dead.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
|
Post by 575 on Mar 24, 2023 21:00:22 GMT
stevep;
Bismarcks ideas won't be supported in any way - the 1914 ISOT was about settling the language driven etnic divide in Schleswig - this 1940 ISOT is about stopping Bismarck. Denmark of 1940 doesn't want any more ethnic Germans and filtering the Danish speakers from the German speaking will be some effort. It can create a huge internal discussion in Denmark and turn the political landscape upside down leaving as always sanity in a land far, far away.. guess You get the gist.
So the now total defeat of Prussia and Austria will be the status to negotiate upon - however Denmark will need to negotiate the German Confederation NOT Prussia or Austria as such. I guess the German Princes will like this approach a lot. The problem will be to have the Great Powers join in the fun - actually in this wein the Emperor Franz Josef should represent the German Confederation. Have no idea if its doable it would depend upon the German Princes. I could see something like - Prussian King William dismiss Bismarck for wasting effectively 3 Corps. The German Princes demand Austria to run negotiations??? I will also seek council on AHcom JanWellem is the one there.
Denmark see USA and Britain the powers to sell arms to if any. Sweden will be a natural as Denmark need it to forge big gun tubes. Does Denmark think anything about Britain using the arms for colonial conquest - I actually intend to at first sell wireless telegraphy to the British. I can see the Admirals' mouths water - keeping tally on all ships at all times! Denmarks return - coal, possibly animal fodder.
The USA - win the Civil War. Denmark and USA had a common interest OTL in doing so as both CSA and Prussia was trying to acquire warships from Britain and France to fight their adversary's. It didn't crystallize into any form of alliance but here it may. Madsen Machineguns and Krag-Jørgensen Rifles. Denmarks return - oil, cereals, copper, zinc, lead etc. I am unsure the USA would even go for colonies ITTL but only time will tell.
Sweden-Norway; Denmark isn't up to break up the Union though there is an old bond between Denmark and Norway but that was with Norway as the Personal Demesne of the Danish King to ensure his lineage. Denmark was orginally an elective Kingdom which only changed with the acquiring of Norway and thus claimed inheritance of power. The Norwegians resented the Danish control - Norwegian Bokmål is actually written/spoken Danish while New Norwegian is building upon Norwegian dialekt to form a language divergent from oppressive Danish and Bokmål. 1864 is only 50 years since Norway was separated from Denmark so I guess the Norwegians won't like the Danes to help them get independence - though of course it is tricky. My take would be not. Thus Norway and Sweden stay in Union - Denmark trade with Sweden and is willing to sell both cereals - Sweden had a constant difficulty in feeding itself and get Artillery guns instead. The Swedes will of course also get those guns. Denmark won't be putting pressure on Sweden to dissolve the Union.
Any input is appreciated.
Well the two key uncertainties will be how much info leaks to whom and how quickly/in what form plus how do people respond to both what they hear of the 'future' coupled with how much recent events change things.
To take an example news of Prussia uniting the bulk of the German states into the most powerful state in Europe - both militarily and economically - could make a lot of Prussians and a fair number of other German nationalists want to still do that. On the other hand Austria, the leaders of many of the German states and assorted foreign states would oppose that, especially given the bloodbath that was WWI and what is known about WWII so far.
How the assorted imperial dynasties respond to what details they get of WWI and the removal of 4 of them could also be a factor. For instance Russia could see attempts at even greater repression and opposition to any political reform while how Franz Joseph reacts in Austria I don't know. Plus the oncoming [possibly] war with Prussia and then the Hungrarian unrest that leads to the double Monarchy with a lot of power passed to Budapest.
In terms of the OTL scramble for Africa from ~1880 it could be triggered earlier, if assorted nations think they must ensure they get their OTL assets - and possibly more - before anyone else gets them or there could be some understanding that many of them were resource sinks which could delay it. I suspect that Leopold's nasty Congo Free State isn't going to emerge here but if not what happens to the Congo basin which is rich in raw materials. - There's a possibility that to avoid squabbles nations possibly propose that the 1940 situation is repeated - other than possibly the Congo - but others could think that unjust to them.
With the US its going to end the civil war a bit earlier and then be a lot better equipped to complete the crushing of the plains Indians. You might see some reaction to news of political and other developments. For instance does it impose immigration restrictions earlier than ~1920, later or not at all? What does the 1864 US establishment think of what the Danes can tell them of Jim Crow and the brutal treatment of freed blacks? How many seek to prevent that or decide its the easiest way to secure the renewed loyalty of the defeated southern whites? How do they react to news that a war with Spain gains them Puerto Rico and the Philippines as well as Guam and Wake? Or that they bought Alaska - which apart from the Yukon gold rush in the 1890's is probably still seen as a remote icy wilderness? Or whether Russia would be as willing to sell TTL?
For Britain many will be glad that the empire is even larger in 1940 than in 1864 but at least some will pick up about the way Britain is being overtaken by other nations in many activities. Also news of a much broader franchise, including votes for women are going to have advocates for both advancing such activities and delaying/seeking to prevent them.
Many other factors that assorted nations and people will have to consider. Also every significant figure is likely to be able to find out about what the future says about them and seeking to make things better - at least whatever they think is better for them and their interests. Basically the technology that Denmark can offer is probably going to be far less disruptive than the knowledge that is likely to leak out - especially where appropriate from assorted diplomats, ambassadors and traders who were in Denmark at that point.
Just about anything could happen.
Thank you - a lot to work with. |
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
|
Post by 575 on Mar 24, 2023 21:07:52 GMT
After action report 5 February 1864 The Enemy had been chased off Slesvig soil or forced to surrender. Fieldmarshall Wrangel's HQ had been intercepted by Jutish Dragoons Regiment moving south towards Ostsee Canal for crossing it at the old Battleground 1813 at Sehested where the German – Russian Army had been defeated. Quite the spot for the Prussian Fieldmarshall to surrender his sidearm – somehow he seemed to be mentally in 1813 as he surrendered the German – Russian Army to Prince Friedrich Carl of the Danish Auxillary Corps to Marshal Davout's North German Army.The Fieldmarshall was taken by Carriage to Schleswig to meet General de Meza on the request of General Essemann. All three enemy Corps had been defeated in battle. Only a few Austrian and Prussians Guards Battalions had made it across the Ostsee Canal to Holstein the majority of troops had been taken Prisoner of War and were marched off for Kochendorf as an internment camp. The 1864 Army had been in great spirit and deployed to guard the Ostsee Canal. 1. Division had crossed the Slie to detach the 1. Brigade to guard Kochdorf camp as it was termed. 2. moved south to join 3. Brigade North of Kiel to Guard the length from there to Sehested. Within a week the Danish Armies had defeated all three Corps of the Executing Powers Austria and Prussia. The Prussian 1. Corps had actually consisted of the support services of two Corps and a Division from each to form one. Basically Prussia had lost major elements of three Corps. General Prior put the report down – now it would be time for the Politicians to do their job.
I think that sentence may be a bit confused - but then that could be referring to the mental state of Fieldmarshall Wrangel? Didn't know of a battle in 1813 at that state but it sounds like your army did pretty damned well but are you talking about the surrender in 1813 or in 1864 as there seems to be details and names from both?
Sounds like the Prussians who still have a significantly smaller force than the Austrians had been hit especially hard although a lot of the men are probably prisoners rather than dead.
1813 was a great Danish Victory over a German-Russian Corps at Sehested; fought in winter even.
Wrangel was a veteran of the Napoleonic Wars and might well in his confused mind think himself back in time to said Battle of Sehested. Quite intentional but I know confusing. Prince Friedric Carl of Hesse was commander of the Danish Auxillary Corps to Marshall Davouts North German Army 1813.
All the Prussian and Austrian units took heavy casualties during the few days of fighting but the majority are Prisoners of War. Only some Battalions making it across the Ostsee Canal to Holstein and possibly scorn by the German Confederation troops left behind there.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
|
Post by 575 on Mar 27, 2023 18:23:58 GMT
Schleswig formal Surrender 13 April 1940/5 February 1864 9PM
King Christian X had insisted upon visiting General de Meza at Gottorp Castle before going south to meet the troops.
The King arrived just ½ an hour before the Army trucks carrying the Fieldmarshall Wrangel and his HQ.
Being told he had a Royal visitor de Meza left his seclusion in the Castle and went downstairs to meet said visitor.
It was only by then that de Meza learned that it was the King himself. De Meza took a correct military stance and saluted the King who reminded him a lot of King Christian IX.
King Christian X approached de Meza taking his hand thanking him for preparing his troops to be able to defeat the Prussian and Austrian Corps.
A surprised de Meza stammered slightly then asked the King to follow him into his situation room besides the Hall. There he shortly outlined the preparations made until the arrival af Army Forces South Jutland and later Jutland Division. De Meza then made excuses for his sudden illness but had heard the battle and been briefed by his Aide on operations.
King Christian X then informed de Meza that Fieldmarshall Wrangel had been take prisoner and was being transported to Schleswig and the King asked de Meza to go along him to receive the formal surrender of the Prussian – Austrian Army.
The two men then spend a half hour talking with only a mess orderly present.
When the motorcade arrived a Colonel informed the two that the Fieldmarshall and his HQ had arrived along Prince Friedrich Carl, Fieldmarshallieutnant Gablenz, Lieutenantgeneral v.d. Mühle and the other 14 Prussian and Austrian Generals.
King Christian X and General de Meza walked into the courtyard to received the formal surrender.
De Meza in front awaited the Fieldmarshall who presented his sidearm at which de Meza asked his Majesty to receive the surrender. At this presentation of the tall man in the background clad in a Generals Cavalry uniform all Prussian and Austrian Generals clicked their heals in unison standing at attention.
King Christian X approached the Fieldmarshall accepting his surrender and received his sidearm. Looking at it shortly the King presented the sword to the Fieldmarshall who thanked his Majesty and then proceeded to present his Officers first of course his Royal Highness Prince Friedrich Carl of Prussia.
Having been presented to the Generals the King asked Prince Friedrich Carl to accompany him to the Palace at Copenhagen where an apartment had been readied; the Fieldmarshall and the Generals would be installed at Gottorp Castle under supervision of General de Meza.
Following a light supper the King asked for Brandy and Cigars and asked the Prisoners of War to accompany him into the Library for a couple of hours of relaxation and conversation following which the King retired and the PoW's were escorted to their rooms.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,997
Likes: 49,398
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 27, 2023 18:31:10 GMT
Schleswig formal Surrender 13 April 1940/5 February 1864 9PM King Christian X had insisted upon visiting General de Meza at Gottorp Castle before going south to meet the troops. The King arrived just ½ an hour before the Army trucks carrying the Fieldmarshall Wrangel and his HQ. Being told he had a Royal visitor de Meza left his seclusion in the Castle and went downstairs to meet said visitor. It was only by then that de Meza learned that it was the King himself. De Meza took a correct military stance and saluted the King who reminded him a lot of King Christian IX. King Christian X approached de Meza taking his hand thanking him for preparing his troops to be able to defeat the Prussian and Austrian Corps. A surprised de Meza stammered slightly then asked the King to follow him into his situation room besides the Hall. There he shortly outlined the preparations made until the arrival af Army Forces South Jutland and later Jutland Division. De Meza then made excuses for his sudden illness but had heard the battle and been briefed by his Aide on operations. King Christian X then informed de Meza that Fieldmarshall Wrangel had been take prisoner and was being transported to Schleswig and the King asked de Meza to go along him to receive the formal surrender of the Prussian – Austrian Army. The two men then spend a half hour talking with only a mess orderly present. When the motorcade arrived a Colonel informed the two that the Fieldmarshall and his HQ had arrived along Prince Friedrich Carl, Fieldmarshallieutnant Gablenz, Lieutenantgeneral v.d. Mühle and the other 14 Prussian and Austrian Generals. King Christian X and General de Meza walked into the courtyard to received the formal surrender. De Meza in front awaited the Fieldmarshall who presented his sidearm at which de Meza asked his Majesty to receive the surrender. At this presentation of the tall man in the background clad in a Generals Cavalry uniform all Prussian and Austrian Generals clicked their heals in unison standing at attention. King Christian X approached the Fieldmarshall accepting his surrender and received his sidearm. Looking at it shortly the King presented the sword to the Fieldmarshall who thanked his Majesty and then proceeded to present his Officers first of course his Royal Highness Prince Friedrich Carl of Prussia. Having been presented to the Generals the King asked Prince Friedrich Carl to accompany him to the Palace at Copenhagen where an apartment had been readied; the Fieldmarshall and the Generals would be installed at Gottorp Castle under supervision of General de Meza. Following a light supper the King asked for Brandy and Cigars and asked the Prisoners of War to accompany him into the Library for a couple of hours of relaxation and conversation following which the King retired and the PoW's were escorted to their rooms. And so i can assume for the moment, the Danish have won the Second Schleswig War. Wonder what Prince Friedrich Carl thinks of a country 80 years in the future. |
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
|
Post by 575 on Apr 1, 2023 9:21:51 GMT
Schleswig formal Surrender 13 April 1940/5 February 1864 9PM King Christian X had insisted upon visiting General de Meza at Gottorp Castle before going south to meet the troops. The King arrived just ½ an hour before the Army trucks carrying the Fieldmarshall Wrangel and his HQ. Being told he had a Royal visitor de Meza left his seclusion in the Castle and went downstairs to meet said visitor. It was only by then that de Meza learned that it was the King himself. De Meza took a correct military stance and saluted the King who reminded him a lot of King Christian IX. King Christian X approached de Meza taking his hand thanking him for preparing his troops to be able to defeat the Prussian and Austrian Corps. A surprised de Meza stammered slightly then asked the King to follow him into his situation room besides the Hall. There he shortly outlined the preparations made until the arrival af Army Forces South Jutland and later Jutland Division. De Meza then made excuses for his sudden illness but had heard the battle and been briefed by his Aide on operations. King Christian X then informed de Meza that Fieldmarshall Wrangel had been take prisoner and was being transported to Schleswig and the King asked de Meza to go along him to receive the formal surrender of the Prussian – Austrian Army. The two men then spend a half hour talking with only a mess orderly present. When the motorcade arrived a Colonel informed the two that the Fieldmarshall and his HQ had arrived along Prince Friedrich Carl, Fieldmarshallieutnant Gablenz, Lieutenantgeneral v.d. Mühle and the other 14 Prussian and Austrian Generals. King Christian X and General de Meza walked into the courtyard to received the formal surrender. De Meza in front awaited the Fieldmarshall who presented his sidearm at which de Meza asked his Majesty to receive the surrender. At this presentation of the tall man in the background clad in a Generals Cavalry uniform all Prussian and Austrian Generals clicked their heals in unison standing at attention. King Christian X approached the Fieldmarshall accepting his surrender and received his sidearm. Looking at it shortly the King presented the sword to the Fieldmarshall who thanked his Majesty and then proceeded to present his Officers first of course his Royal Highness Prince Friedrich Carl of Prussia. Having been presented to the Generals the King asked Prince Friedrich Carl to accompany him to the Palace at Copenhagen where an apartment had been readied; the Fieldmarshall and the Generals would be installed at Gottorp Castle under supervision of General de Meza. Following a light supper the King asked for Brandy and Cigars and asked the Prisoners of War to accompany him into the Library for a couple of hours of relaxation and conversation following which the King retired and the PoW's were escorted to their rooms. And so i can assume for the moment, the Danish have won the Second Schleswig War. Wonder what Prince Friedrich Carl thinks of a country 80 years in the future.
Militarily - Yes; Politically - we'll have to await the outcome of the Imperial Diet meetings.
I'd guess he'd be very impressed by the technical achievements; electricity - cars, trucks, ships - movies - paved instead of cobbled roads making for a smooth ride (yes, yes I know its 1940 but the Danish roads were mainly Macadamised and the man's used to horsedrawn carts) - refridgeration - radio - modern medicines and surgery - modern plumming - and the abhorrence: Female and Household workers allowed voting!!! to name a few.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
|
Post by 575 on Apr 1, 2023 9:54:04 GMT
Slesvig 14 April 1940/6 February 1864 Weather: light snow halt most Air operations though Reconnaisance missions are flown along the Ostsee Canal and over Prussian and other German ports on the Baltic and North Sea shore. A Navy Heinkel He-8 is lost during its reconnaisance mission over the North Sea. Artilleryship Peder Skram and 1. Navy Squadron initiate a search for the Aircraft that had reported engine troubles by radio. The aircraft isn't found this day.  South Schleswig The Danish Army on the Ostsee Canal observe the southern shore where units of the Confederation Corps of two Saxon and two Hanover Brigades patrolled the shoreline. The King arriving at Alt Duvensted north of Rendsburg was greeted by the troops of the 1864 and 1940 Armies headed by General Essemann and Generals Gerlach, Steinmann, du Plat and Hegerman-Lindencrone. General de Meza busy keeping watch on the Fieldmarshall and Generals PoW's at Gottorp Castle. Thanking the troops of their great achievement their stamina under the worst possible conditions and their having written history during the last week the King then inspected all the Units. The troops then passed the King in review ending the day and went off to quarters for a well deserved plentyful meal of soup, pork, potatoes, vegetables and cake; good drink to go along and coffee to round it out. The King was then shown around the battlefield which had been sealed off to avoid plunder of the fallen but more importantly their arms and retrieving the wounded not yet picked up. It was actually a rather busy place. Following this the King was taken to Sehested and saw the battlefield of 1813 before a quick visit at the troops on the Ostsee Canal. Late in the day the King drove back to Gottorp Castle to pick up Prince Friedrich Carl and then proceeded by train to Copenhagen. Aircraft had been considered but weather and the loss of the Navy Heinkel He-8 had shelved that proposal though it would have mightily impressed the Prussian Prince. It was a very intrigued Prussian Prince that looked out the window as long as daylight and early dusk permitted. Then the crossing by Ferry of the Great Bealt and the last trainride across Sjælland to Copenhagen where the Kings motorcade avaited them for the short trip across the City to the Palace. There they were welcomed by the Queen Alexandra by birth Duchess of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, the Crown Prince Frederik and Prince Knud both in their Navy Dress. The Crownprincess Ingrid was excused as she was soon to give birth. The Prince Friedrich Carl having handed his sidearm to a page then engaged in some conversation in German with the Royal Family before retreating to his Apartment. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,997
Likes: 49,398
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 1, 2023 10:38:27 GMT
Slesvig 14 April 1940/6 February 1864 Weather: light snow halt most Air operations though Reconnaisance missions are flown along the Ostsee Canal and over Prussian and other German ports on the Baltic and North Sea shore. A Navy Heinkel He-8 is lost during its reconnaisance mission over the North Sea. Artilleryship Peder Skram and 1. Navy Squadron initiate a search for the Aircraft that had reported engine troubles by radio. The aircraft isn't found this day. First another good update, secondly, any lose of a plane is huge either by accident ore combat, i do not know if 1940 Denmark can replace what they lose in aircraft. |
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
|
Post by 575 on Apr 1, 2023 12:56:14 GMT
Slesvig 14 April 1940/6 February 1864 Weather: light snow halt most Air operations though Reconnaisance missions are flown along the Ostsee Canal and over Prussian and other German ports on the Baltic and North Sea shore. A Navy Heinkel He-8 is lost during its reconnaisance mission over the North Sea. Artilleryship Peder Skram and 1. Navy Squadron initiate a search for the Aircraft that had reported engine troubles by radio. The aircraft isn't found this day. First another good update, secondly, any lose of a plane is huge either by accident ore combat, i do not know if 1940 Denmark can replace what they lose in aircraft.
There will be some difficulty but the Navy Works will be able to build new Aircraft and Engines. The difficulty mainly being import of metals but we'll look to Sweden and Britain.  |
|
