Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352 
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on May 7, 2023 2:12:13 GMT
‘Red Holocaust In Eastern Poland’.
That is, Stalin decides to carry out an extermination campaign of Soviet-occupied Poland mirroring Hitler's. Know the Soviets dispensed terror campaigns and forced collectivization quite liberally, but to my knowledge, there was no concerted attempt to wipe out the Polish nation and culture wholesale.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on May 7, 2023 15:04:04 GMT
‘Red Holocaust In Eastern Poland’. That is, Stalin decides to carry out an extermination campaign of Soviet-occupied Poland mirroring Hitler's. Know the Soviets dispensed terror campaigns and forced collectivization quite liberally, but to my knowledge, there was no concerted attempt to wipe out the Polish nation and culture wholesale.
Apart from anything else I think there were relatively few Poles in the eastern parts Stalin occupied in 1939, other than in some cities such as Lvov. Most of the population were Ukrainians or in some cases Belarus or Lithuanians.
He sought to wipe out Polish culture and the idea of any human rights - albeit that the previous Polish regime hadn't been the most liberal - but not the population. Think it was more a class based 'Bolshevik' viewpoint with the idea of removing people who might be capable of forming the core of any resistance, i.e. military officers, teachers, priests, other people with a measure of education and social power in the previous state.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on May 8, 2023 14:56:29 GMT
‘Red Holocaust In Eastern Poland’. That is, Stalin decides to carry out an extermination campaign of Soviet-occupied Poland mirroring Hitler's. Know the Soviets dispensed terror campaigns and forced collectivization quite liberally, but to my knowledge, there was no concerted attempt to wipe out the Polish nation and culture wholesale.
Apart from anything else I think there were relatively few Poles in the eastern parts Stalin occupied in 1939, other than in some cities such as Lvov. Most of the population were Ukrainians or in some cases Belarus or Lithuanians.
He sought to wipe out Polish culture and the idea of any human rights - albeit that the previous Polish regime hadn't been the most liberal - but not the population. Think it was more a class based 'Bolshevik' viewpoint with the idea of removing people who might be capable of forming the core of any resistance, i.e. military officers, teachers, priests, other people with a measure of education and social power in the previous state.
Hmm; interesting... 🧐 Also suggested this over here on The Sietch, with one person replying that having the Soviet sphere of influence encompass the original borders (i.e., along the Vistula with Lithuania going to the Germans) might boost the population to several million Polish (which is more than enough). Mentioned the NKVD's Polish Operation to me here, as well, so even IOTL, the Soviets were carrying out ethnic cleansing and mass-executions that'd made them a better fit for the Axis instead of the Allies. If accurate, then I suppose the next step is a "change" in Stalin's approach. Off the top of my head, I suppose one way to carry it out is for the NKVD to roll out the mass-killings "in stages" much like their German counterparts, such as by starting with a wave of Katyn-style massacres throughout eastern Poland to kill off the Polish leadership cadres, intelligentsia, and business elites — ridding them of figures they can organize around. Beyond that, given that extermination camps aren't really Stalin's MO, he might just opt for another Holodomor to starve out the several million Poles left, while the NKVD shoots the survivors point-blank and relocates ethnic Russians to the land (who proceed to build atop the ruins of what was once Poland). In any case, I'm fairly sure Hitler will be pleased — and even if he still hates Slavs, may just decide to let the USSR have a few more years to expend its own resources on doing what Hitler was planning to do to the Poles, anyway. Could buy Stalin time to build up the Soviet war machine, too, now that I think about it. |
|
mspence
Warrant Officer
Posts: 281
Likes: 243
|
Post by mspence on May 12, 2023 9:46:57 GMT
Question reposted from the post-1900 thread becaue it didn't belong there: WI the Kyujo Incident in 1945 had succeeded? |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on May 12, 2023 9:58:28 GMT
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on May 13, 2023 16:33:08 GMT
'AHC: Less Nukes, More Chemical and Biological Weapons'.
|
|
mspence
Warrant Officer
Posts: 281
Likes: 243
|
Post by mspence on May 14, 2023 5:45:06 GMT
WI: Churchill dies in 1953
He had a serious stoke that year, so WI he dies is there a special election & do conservatives still carry the majority? Who replaces him?
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on May 14, 2023 12:03:30 GMT
WI: Churchill dies in 1953 He had a serious stoke that year, so WI he dies is there a special election & do conservatives still carry the majority? Who replaces him?
I doubt there would be a special election. There would be the selection of a new Conservative party leader but since they had won an election two years earlier there is no basis for a general election.
|
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on May 14, 2023 12:24:55 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by TheRomanSlayer on May 15, 2023 23:00:17 GMT
Apart from anything else I think there were relatively few Poles in the eastern parts Stalin occupied in 1939, other than in some cities such as Lvov. Most of the population were Ukrainians or in some cases Belarus or Lithuanians.
He sought to wipe out Polish culture and the idea of any human rights - albeit that the previous Polish regime hadn't been the most liberal - but not the population. Think it was more a class based 'Bolshevik' viewpoint with the idea of removing people who might be capable of forming the core of any resistance, i.e. military officers, teachers, priests, other people with a measure of education and social power in the previous state.
Hmm; interesting... 🧐 Also suggested this over here on The Sietch, with one person replying that having the Soviet sphere of influence encompass the original borders (i.e., along the Vistula with Lithuania going to the Germans) might boost the population to several million Polish (which is more than enough). Mentioned the NKVD's Polish Operation to me here, as well, so even IOTL, the Soviets were carrying out ethnic cleansing and mass-executions that'd made them a better fit for the Axis instead of the Allies. If accurate, then I suppose the next step is a "change" in Stalin's approach. Off the top of my head, I suppose one way to carry it out is for the NKVD to roll out the mass-killings "in stages" much like their German counterparts, such as by starting with a wave of Katyn-style massacres throughout eastern Poland to kill off the Polish leadership cadres, intelligentsia, and business elites — ridding them of figures they can organize around. Beyond that, given that extermination camps aren't really Stalin's MO, he might just opt for another Holodomor to starve out the several million Poles left, while the NKVD shoots the survivors point-blank and relocates ethnic Russians to the land (who proceed to build atop the ruins of what was once Poland). In any case, I'm fairly sure Hitler will be pleased — and even if he still hates Slavs, may just decide to let the USSR have a few more years to expend its own resources on doing what Hitler was planning to do to the Poles, anyway. Could buy Stalin time to build up the Soviet war machine, too, now that I think about it. I would suspect that Western Belarus and Western Ukraine would be repopulated by Belarusians and Ukrainians from their respective Soviet republics while Eastern Ukraine would simultaneously be populated by more ethnic Russians. Basically transplanting the Ukrainian population that resides in Slobodan Ukraine, the Donbass, and the Yedisan region where Odessa is to Halychyna and Volhynia. |
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on May 22, 2023 2:19:28 GMT
‘AH Question: Longest The US Can Hold Onto The Philippines?’.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on May 22, 2023 15:53:41 GMT
‘AH Question: Longest The US Can Hold Onto The Philippines?’.
Are you talking about from Dec 41 against the Japanese attack or as a colony or other possession, including possible with an option for full statehood? I'm assuming the former but not sure.
If the former and with no changes in events prior to the attack then probably not greatly so. If instead of trying to resist the landings MacArthur sends the planned smaller force into Bataan, along with the planned supplies, rather than use up/lose many of those supplies in the attempt at forward defence and then retreating into the peninsula with more forces then probably a bit longer. Part of the issue from what I've read was that while this position prevented the Japanese using Manila harbour that wasn't a high priority for the Japanese so they were able to send forces south then return them to the islands for the final stages of the campaign. However the forces might be able to last somewhat longer and inflict more casualties against the attacking Japanese forces but it wouldn't really make a massive difference to the development of the war in the region. - Only exception, although not a big one was when Wainwright surrendered he was forced to surrender other forces still resisting in other parts of the islands so this would be likely to occur somewhat latter as well.
Basically its a virtually totally isolated position and the US had, rightly with the forces available at the time, decided to give it up as lost as it was so deep inside Japanese controlled territories and waters. MacArthur seems to have believed that if a Japanese attack had come another 6-8 months later then the forces available then would have been strong enough to have defeated Japanese landings. However even if that was the case its still largely isolated from any external support so how much it could have threatened Japanese supply lines might have been time-limited depending on how long supplies and offensive capacity in the islands could continue to operate.
|
|
|
|
Post by TheRomanSlayer on May 24, 2023 4:31:39 GMT
On the other hand, if it was the latter, as I've said on the Sietch, it would take a federalist/annexationist faction becoming stronger and Manuel Quezon not being a complete dunce when he said the infamous words:
You might also need a Philippine-American War PoD where the US straight up goes for the hearts and minds option, but this in itself is difficult, given the racial rhetoric going on. Heck, they even made a song about us and being civilized with a Krag.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on May 25, 2023 20:03:53 GMT
On the other hand, if it was the latter, as I've said on the Sietch, it would take a federalist/annexationist faction becoming stronger and Manuel Quezon not being a complete dunce when he said the infamous words: You might also need a Philippine-American War PoD where the US straight up goes for the hearts and minds option, but this in itself is difficult, given the racial rhetoric going on. Heck, they even made a song about us and being civilized with a Krag. Are you talking about from Dec 41 against the Japanese attack or as a colony or other possession, including possible with an option for full statehood? I'm assuming the former but not sure.
If the former and with no changes in events prior to the attack then probably not greatly so. If instead of trying to resist the landings MacArthur sends the planned smaller force into Bataan, along with the planned supplies, rather than use up/lose many of those supplies in the attempt at forward defence and then retreating into the peninsula with more forces then probably a bit longer. Part of the issue from what I've read was that while this position prevented the Japanese using Manila harbour that wasn't a high priority for the Japanese so they were able to send forces south then return them to the islands for the final stages of the campaign. However the forces might be able to last somewhat longer and inflict more casualties against the attacking Japanese forces but it wouldn't really make a massive difference to the development of the war in the region. - Only exception, although not a big one was when Wainwright surrendered he was forced to surrender other forces still resisting in other parts of the islands so this would be likely to occur somewhat latter as well.
Basically its a virtually totally isolated position and the US had, rightly with the forces available at the time, decided to give it up as lost as it was so deep inside Japanese controlled territories and waters. MacArthur seems to have believed that if a Japanese attack had come another 6-8 months later then the forces available then would have been strong enough to have defeated Japanese landings. However even if that was the case its still largely isolated from any external support so how much it could have threatened Japanese supply lines might have been time-limited depending on how long supplies and offensive capacity in the islands could continue to operate. Sorry for the delayed reply. Was taking a few days to relax after graduating on the 20th, so was just casually browsing instead of reading others' responses closely. To answer Steve's question, I did indeed mean your second option on the Philippines remains a US possession for the longest time possible. Would be a heck of a state, as well, given both how far off it is and its population (read: Electoral Vote count) swaying US elections big time. In which case, I wonder if it'd be more like the Puerto Rico of the Pacific, in the sense of being a recognized US territory that still lacks the rights and responsibilities attached to statehood? Otherwise, Steve's first option looks interesting all by itself. Not knowledgeable enough about the Pacific theater of World War II to comment, but what I can say is that it's novel and has runoff consequences worth discussing in more detail. If anyone would like to start a thread on it, I'd be happy to spectate and chime in when I can. |
|
mspence
Warrant Officer
Posts: 281
Likes: 243
|
Post by mspence on May 26, 2023 4:41:58 GMT
WI: William McKinley Survives
What happens to Theodore Roosevelt?
|
|
