lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 12, 2023 18:08:59 GMT
He stepped back on September 6th in 1940. Not sure about the exact date - WP only says "He was allowed to leave the country with a special train loaded with fortunes, an assassination attempt was made by the Iron Guard, who fired on the train." Could the Iron Guard be distracted by this, even still Romania is still not able to escape Germany from getting it involved in the Operation Barbarossa. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 12, 2023 19:26:59 GMT
When king Carol II of Romania left the country in his train, the fascist Iron Guard tried to kill him. In OTL, he got away. But WI not?
It might cause some internal conflict inside the country but by that time Carol II was already deeply unpopular as his attempts to gain a security guarantee from Germany had been undermined by the concessions Germany demanded of Romania in terms of territorial losses to the USSR, Hungary and Bulgaria. Hence I can't see it making a massive difference to developments inside Romania or probably the wider world.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 12, 2023 19:32:01 GMT
He stepped back on September 6th in 1940. Not sure about the exact date - WP only says "He was allowed to leave the country with a special train loaded with fortunes, an assassination attempt was made by the Iron Guard, who fired on the train." Could the Iron Guard be distracted by this, even still Romania is still not able to escape Germany from getting it involved in the Operation Barbarossa.
Not really as it was too late by this stage. Romania was already pretty much in the German pocket, with Iron Guard support to secure Germany's oil supply from Polesti. Also having lost Bessarabia and part of Bukovina many Romanians not only feared further Soviet encroachment but also wanted to regain those territories. Plus given that without direct Romanian involvement the front would have been distinctly shorter and the distance to many resource areas that the Germans targeted markedly longer made it unlikely Romania would be able to sit out a Nazi-Soviet war.
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 20, 2023 5:01:00 GMT
The Iron Guard certainly still would want to avenge their leader Codreanu of whose death Carol was responsible for. But firing bullets maybe wasn't the right thing to stop a train, unless Carol was looking out of a window at the right/wrong time.
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Post by diamondstorm on Apr 26, 2023 1:11:37 GMT
If Israel lost the War of 1948 to its Arab neighbors, what would happen to the Jewish people and Jewish religion as a hole? Would there still be a Jewish autonomous zone in Palestine or would all the Jews in Palestine and the rest of North Africa and Middle East be forced to leave the region or evacuate? Also what would happen to the Jews still in Central and Eastern Europe at this time (outside the USSR since no one was allowed to leave)?
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Post by stevep on Apr 26, 2023 18:01:42 GMT
If Israel lost the War of 1948 to its Arab neighbors, what would happen to the Jewish people and Jewish religion as a hole? Would there still be a Jewish autonomous zone in Palestine or would all the Jews in Palestine and the rest of North Africa and Middle East be forced to leave the region or evacuate? Also what would happen to the Jews still in Central and Eastern Europe at this time (outside the USSR since no one was allowed to leave)?
I fear that many if not most would have died unless some major power was willing to protect them - at least until they could be evacuated. Without Israel being established you might not have seen the same level of forced expulsion of many Jews in the N Africa/ME region although their likely to face a fair level of persecution still.
The Jews still in Europe who wanted to leave might see somewhat more allowed to settle in N America especially but I suspect many would have been forced to stay, although they might have sought to move within Europe to areas they feel safer in. Which would probably mean a move west and northwards.
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Post by diamondstorm on Apr 27, 2023 2:50:04 GMT
If Israel lost the War of 1948 to its Arab neighbors, what would happen to the Jewish people and Jewish religion as a hole? Would there still be a Jewish autonomous zone in Palestine or would all the Jews in Palestine and the rest of North Africa and Middle East be forced to leave the region or evacuate? Also what would happen to the Jews still in Central and Eastern Europe at this time (outside the USSR since no one was allowed to leave)?
I fear that many if not most would have died unless some major power was willing to protect them - at least until they could be evacuated. Without Israel being established you might not have seen the same level of forced expulsion of many Jews in the N Africa/ME region although their likely to face a fair level of persecution still.
The Jews still in Europe who wanted to leave might see somewhat more allowed to settle in N America especially but I suspect many would have been forced to stay, although they might have sought to move within Europe to areas they feel safer in. Which would probably mean a move west and northwards.
While it's not impossible, I'm not sure the UN would've allowed what would've been seen as Holocaust 2.0 to occur right then and there. I think the UN would've intervened soon enough to allow the majority to evacuate to camps in Europe. As far as Europe, I think most would've stayed in or near the refugee camps in Austria, Germany, and Italy for years or decades and (unfortunately) become something of an underclass in the region if they can't make it to England or France. With America, the US didn't let in a substantial number in IOTL until 1950, after the majority had chosen Palestine due to not wanting to be flooded with refugees. With this, I think relatively few are let into the USA and most countries weren't accepting them in large numbers either, hence why I said they would be in refugee camps indefinitely. On the other hand, there was already momentum expel Jews in Middle Eastern and North African countries even before 1948 and assuming the course of the Cold War goes roughly IOTL, I expect increasing discrimination against Jews and Arabic nationalism to push possibly most out by 1980. Please correct me if I'm wrong. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 28, 2023 8:11:47 GMT
If Israel lost the War of 1948 to its Arab neighbors, what would happen to the Jewish people and Jewish religion as a hole? Would there still be a Jewish autonomous zone in Palestine or would all the Jews in Palestine and the rest of North Africa and Middle East be forced to leave the region or evacuate? Also what would happen to the Jews still in Central and Eastern Europe at this time (outside the USSR since no one was allowed to leave)? Despite the Marshall Plan being enacted by 3 April 1948 and the Israeli War of Independence started 15 May 1948 the majority of European Nations still being in the rubble of WWII and wanting economic aid to rebuild not refugees. These may be just as unwanting as the US to accept Israeli refugees and still unwanting of Jews and displaced persons as an effect of WWII milling about.
Some 350,000 German refugees ended up in Denmark during WWII and 200,000 of these staying on post hostilities the last leaving February 1949. "Our" Jews returned in the wake of liberation May 1945 - their possessions had been watched over by Danish authorities so they would be able to sustain themselves; those deported or fled Norway wasn't all that lucky! Essentially - refugees No Thank You!
The UN may have decided to take action - but where to send the refugees? Don't expect any Nations to queue up with open arms..
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Post by diamondstorm on Apr 29, 2023 2:04:40 GMT
If Israel lost the War of 1948 to its Arab neighbors, what would happen to the Jewish people and Jewish religion as a hole? Would there still be a Jewish autonomous zone in Palestine or would all the Jews in Palestine and the rest of North Africa and Middle East be forced to leave the region or evacuate? Also what would happen to the Jews still in Central and Eastern Europe at this time (outside the USSR since no one was allowed to leave)? Despite the Marshall Plan being enacted by 3 April 1948 and the Israeli War of Independence started 15 May 1948 the majority of European Nations still being in the rubble of WWII and wanting economic aid to rebuild not refugees. These may be just as unwanting as the US to accept Israeli refugees and still unwanting of Jews and displaced persons as an effect of WWII milling about.
Some 350,000 German refugees ended up in Denmark during WWII and 200,000 of these staying on post hostilities the last leaving February 1949. "Our" Jews returned in the wake of liberation May 1945 - their possessions had been watched over by Danish authorities so they would be able to sustain themselves; those deported or fled Norway wasn't all that lucky! Essentially - refugees No Thank You!
The UN may have decided to take action - but where to send the refugees? Don't expect any Nations to queue up with open arms..
With regards to Europe, I mostly mean in refugee camps or nearby tent cities in the event that they get shutdown before many are able to be relocated. With nowhere else to go they would probably have no choice but to stay where they are and (unfortunately) develop into a permanent underclass in the region. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 29, 2023 7:13:04 GMT
How about the Jewish Autonomous Oblast becoming the premier destination for the world's Jewish population that aren't wanted in Europe or the Middle East? Although having that AO being in the middle of the Amur is one of those things that make anyone ask why would they put a Jewish entity in an area sandwiched between the USSR and China, or rather, the USSR and the former Manchukuo.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 29, 2023 7:16:19 GMT
How about the Jewish Autonomous Oblast becoming the premier destination for the world's Jewish population that aren't wanted in Europe or the Middle East? Although having that AO being in the middle of the Amur is one of those things that make anyone ask why would they put a Jewish entity in an area sandwiched between the USSR and China, or rather, the USSR and the former Manchukuo. Jews volunteer wanting to live in the Soviet Union. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 29, 2023 9:16:55 GMT
How about the Jewish Autonomous Oblast becoming the premier destination for the world's Jewish population that aren't wanted in Europe or the Middle East? Although having that AO being in the middle of the Amur is one of those things that make anyone ask why would they put a Jewish entity in an area sandwiched between the USSR and China, or rather, the USSR and the former Manchukuo. Jews volunteer wanting to live in the Soviet Union.
If the situation was to develop as suggested you could unfortunately find a fair number of people desperate enough to. Given the big role the Soviets played in the defeat of Hitler and the amount of propaganda that the western allies put out during the war to make them palatable allies.
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 29, 2023 9:55:08 GMT
Even North Australia or the Alaskan panhandle would be more welcome...
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 29, 2023 10:00:53 GMT
Even North Australia or the Alaskan panhandle would be more welcome... Depending on American ore Australian welcoming them. |
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Post by diamondstorm on Apr 29, 2023 17:56:17 GMT
Even North Australia or the Alaskan panhandle would be more welcome... Not sure if it would be too late for a second proposal for a Jewish state to come into effect. Probably. That said, I think the US and Australia would be more attractive than the USSR, even if the number getting in would be limited. |
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