lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 3, 2022 3:12:36 GMT
Well as we keep on derailing this thread, we picked out our weapons, now the location, think we need to meet halfway as i am not allowed to travel to the United States with a four day old, yard long, baguettes, i think the TSA might flag that as a weapon. OK I get your gentle nudge to get on with THE SHOWBOAT engages THE IRON CHANCELLOR. It is still a work in progress, far from finished and I reserve the right to continue to tweek it. THE SHOWBOAT engages THE IRON CHANCELLOR
A good start Senior Chief.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on May 3, 2022 12:24:46 GMT
OK I get your gentle nudge to get on with THE SHOWBOAT engages THE IRON CHANCELLOR. It is still a work in progress, far from finished and I reserve the right to continue to tweek it. THE SHOWBOAT engages THE IRON CHANCELLOR
A good start Senior Chief. Lordroel my friend, you forgot to add the rest of that compliment. "Now don't let that go to your head, KID."
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 3, 2022 12:51:32 GMT
27 March 1941 “ABC-1” Joint Staff agreement signed. ABC-1” defined what roles US and UK forces would play while the United States was still neutral. The USN was to ensure the defense of the Wester Hemispher. The sea lines of communication linking the British to the Western Hemisphere were vital, Per CNO Stark’s “Plan Dog” memo of 12 Nov ‘40 approved by FDR. ABC-1 also formally authorized and encouraged the long established,tactical and technical information sharing between OpNav and the Admiralty. It also authorized cross posting of USN and RN Officers to share latest operational practices and TIMELY intel sharing. Can we arrange a suitable reward for "Betty" Stark for his considerable mistakes in judgement in this ATL? =============================================================== On another note, what will the follow-up "The court martial of Lancelot Holland" look like?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 3, 2022 14:09:54 GMT
Whoa there my friend. A fair Duel, under the Irish Rules, is one thing. However 6 glasses of Ouzo sounds more like a mutual SUICIDE pact.
And I'd be dead by the fourth glass. As the challenged party, I don't question your right to pick the weapon. How about taking Steve up on the French bread rolls idea? If you are still out to do some serious damage how about four day old, yard long, baguettes? The combo of it's very hard crust and being stale surely will make it a formidable cudgel? Got to give ourselves a chance to survive. Well as we keep on derailing this thread, we picked out our weapons, now the location, think we need to meet halfway as i am not allowed to travel to the United States with a four day old, yard long, baguettes, i think the TSA might flag that as a weapon.
I know I'm distracting the thread further but why would either/both of you travel with your weapon? Buy them at the site of the duel. Much simpler.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 3, 2022 14:16:32 GMT
Well as we keep on derailing this thread, we picked out our weapons, now the location, think we need to meet halfway as i am not allowed to travel to the United States with a four day old, yard long, baguettes, i think the TSA might flag that as a weapon. OK I get your gentle nudge to get on with THE SHOWBOAT engages THE IRON CHANCELLOR.
It is still a work in progress, far from finished and I reserve the right to continue to tweek it.
THE SHOWBOAT engages THE IRON CHANCELLOR
5 Feb ‘37 BB-55 Keel laid. New York Naval Shipyard (NYNSY) 5 Sept ‘39 USN entered World War II. CNO, Admiral Harold R. Stark, initiated Neutrality Patrol operations in the Caribbean & within 200 miles off the coasts of North & South America. 1 Oct Feb ‘39 BB-55 Launched (NYNSY) 5 APR 1940 FDR and the CNO instructed the Atlantic Fleet to initiate other "short-of-war" operations, and this led to the strategy of battleship sweeps deep into the Atlantic to deter Axis surface raiders and U-boats from entering the Neutrality Zone. 5 Nov ‘40 BB-55 Commissioned (NYNSY) 25 Nov ‘40 BB-55 installation of Mark 3 radar sets for the main battery, Mark 4 radars for the secondary guns,a CXAM-1 search radar, at (NYNSY) 1 Dec 1940 BB-55 departs Boston Naval Shipyard forh er shakedown cruise in the Caribbean 17 Dec 1940 CNO Stark appointed Rear Admiral Ernest King Commander-in-Chief of the Atlantic Fleet. Thereby making him direct responsibility for the conduct of the Nuetrality Patrol Force.
25 Feb 1941 Admiral King meets with Prospective CO BB-55 in Washington to explain his concept of "short-of-war" operations, especially his whole hearted support and HIS very loose ROE’s of battleship sweeps deep into the Atlantic to deter Axis surface raiders and U-boats from entering the Neutrality Zone. It was not a shoot on sight authorization but King did make it clear the USN would defend itself and nuetral merchies vigorously if fired upon by the Kriegsmarine within the zone. 28 Feb 1941 BB-55 Completes shakedown cruise, is homeported in Boston and Chops to the Neutrality Patrol. 1 Mar 1941 BB-55 Captain Willis Augustus "Ching" Lee, Jr, assumes command. Lee's specialty in life was gunnery. At the age of 19 in 1907 "he became the only American to win both the US National High Power Rifle and Pistol championships in the same year." In 1914 during the Vera Cruz campaign in Mexico he drew the fire of three enemy snipers, thereby exposing their positions and then shot them at long range. He understood the powerful guns of a battleship as an extension of the law of ballistics and adapted his expertise to the new age of technology. Yup, I'm stacking the deck. 2 Mar 1941 BB-55 began rigorous training in gunnery in Chesapeak Bay and the use of her new search and fire control radars on the Dahlgren Virginia test ranges. 15 Mar 1941 At the request of CO BB-55, a “Radar” technical evaluation team from Naval Research Laboratory and the Radiation Laboratory at MIT come aboard to observe BB-55 radar directed gunnery and search radar operations. The team consisted of Engineers and scientists on the cutting edge of radar development. As well as observing the team instructs crew on optimal operation of the units, known deficiencies and quick fixes to the gear, advanced trouble shooting techniques and preventuve maintenace procesudres. CO BB-55 requests, through chain of command, NRL be directed to assign experienced radar engineering officer to BB-55. Lee doubts he will get one any time soon. There are just too few Radar savvy Officers in the fleet, so he decides to become that expert and adds a crash course on radar to his other duties.
27 March 1941 “ABC-1” Joint Staff agreement signed. ABC-1” defined what roles US and UK forces would play while the United States was still neutral. The USN was to ensure the defense of the Wester Hemispher. The sea lines of communication linking the British to the Western Hemisphere were vital, Per CNO Stark’s “Plan Dog” memo of 12 Nov ‘40 approved by FDR. ABC-1 also formally authorized and encouraged the long established,tactical and technical information sharing between OpNav and the Admiralty. It also authorized cross posting of USN and RN Officers to share latest operational practices and TIMELY intel sharing.
9 APR 1941 BB-55 returns to Boston Naval Shipyard for latest upgrades and recalibration to her fire control and search radars. 25 APRIL 1941 Convoy HX 123 departs Halifax Nova Scotia with 43 merchants 1. Old BB HMS Ramillies 4 Town class Ex USN WW I DDs including the future famous HMSCampbeltown, ExUSN DD 131, of the St Nazaire Raid 3 Modified WW I W class DDs 7 Flower class Corvets 3 old ASW sloops 1 Armed Merchant Cruiser.
26 April 1941 TG 39.1 underway from Boston to conduct battleship sweep Under Rear Admiral Henry Kent Hewitt USS North Carolina BB-55 flag USS Tuscaloosa – CA-37 (No radar) USS Kearny DD-432 Gleaves-class USS Dunlap DD-384 Mahan class CO Lt.Cdr. Carl Hilton Bushnell, USN USS Benson DD-421 Benson class
29 APRIL 1941 Convoy HX 123 950 miles south East of Halifax. BB HMS Ramillies, has a catastrophic casualty to a high pressure turbine. The internal explosion fractures the casing sending shrapnel through the engine room that cuts down the Chief ERA and many of the engineers. Much of the piping requires patching and replacement. Serious damage is done the engine room’s other high pressure turbine. On inspection, it is determined the 2nd turbine requires shipyard repair. With her speed substantially reduced Ramillies is ordered back to Halifax with a W class DD and ASW sloop as escort.
19 MAY 1941 Bismarck, the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, two DDs and two mine sweepers sailed from Kiel Bay. Both capital ships were equipped with FUMO23 &27 Seetakt; both had special radar rooms as a part of the original design. Their assignment was commerce raiding under the command of Admiral Lütjens. More was expected of them than of previous surface actions, for with their armor, speed and radar they would be difficult to stop, an opinion shared in Berlin and London. 20 MAY 1941 One DD and three mine sweepers joined the squadron as it proceeded through the Kattegat. ME-109s provide CAP for the early stages of the break out. 21 May 1941 aircraft of the British Coastal Command identified the German BB and Heavy Cruiser proceeding north in Norwegian waters. RN cruisers Norfolk andSuffolk ordered by the Admiralty to take up positions in the Denmark Strait, between Iceland and Greenland. 22 MAY 1941 0800 Admiral Lutgens, aware he had been found, continues on his course and detaches the three DDs upon entering the Bransfield Strait. 23 MAY 1941 about noon Bismarck, whose two 80 cm sets were not restricted in duration of operation, had located the Suffolk both with radar and underwater sound. Lutgens continued on course southwestward through the Denmark Strait at 25 kts. The Denmark Strait, at the time was about two-thirds blocked by ice and with most of the remainder the recent depository of 6100 mines. Retreating ice had left a safe passage that FUMO Seekeat easily traced, allowing them to avoid the floating bergs as well as the pack ice even in the deep fog that kept British non-radar air patrols from sighting them. 23 MAY 1941 1920 Suffolk and the Bismarck sighted one another visually as the latter broke briefly from a fog bank. The Suffolks’s type 284 transmitter tubes were pushed to the limit to gain the needed power at such short wavelength; this normally allowed operation for only a couple of hours at a time, not too restrictive for gun-laying but hardly suitable for searching. The vertical lobe structure of the 7.5 m set precluded using it for surface search except at very close range. It was the intermittent use required to conserve the 284 that caused the British sighting to be visual. Suffolk scurried for fog before 15 inch shells could be sent her way, got off a sighting report and began tracking the big ship with the 50 cm type 284. The 284 was primarily a Mian Battery Fire Control Radar. She waited at her station at the exit of the mine field. Because of iced insulators on the radio antenna the Suffolk’s first sighting report was received only by the Norfolk and the Prinz Eugen, where it was promptly decoded. Norfolk’s first glimpse of Bismarck was almost her last as she narrowly escaped a salvo of heavy shells. The shock of gunfire had the effect of knocking out the forward Seetakt to Lütjens’s great displeasure, so Prinz Eugen had to lead, as both her radars still functioned. The Suffolk managed to keep her quarry in optical or radar sight and hold the Norfolk close with radio. Norfolk patrolled 50 miles to the west, had only the 1.5 m fixed-antenna type 286M, the one that required swinging ship for direction. The Admiralty soon learned of the chase and dispatched the new battleship Prince of Wales and the flagship Hood to intercept. They met the enemy early in the morning of the 24th, despite the Suffolk having lost contact a few hours before. Vice Admiral L E Holland, commanding the squadron, ordered complete radio silence for his ships, including radar, until the German ships were sighted, his fear being that with their greater speed the Germans could escape if alerted. 24 MAY 1941 0415 Prince Eugen signals the Admiral Lutgens that smoke is sighted to port. Rememeber where they are. In May the days are very, very long in the Denmark Straight. 24 MAY 1941 0535 RN BB Prince of Wales, CC (battle cruiser) Hood, DDs Achates, Antelope, Anthony, Echo, Electra, and Icarus closed to engage the Bismarck. The BB and CC and open fire at 25,000 yards. 24 MAY 1941 0552 when the Bismarck was within 25,000 yards, the Hood opened fire with the aid of her type 284 Fire Control radar, quickly followed by the Prince of Wales. Three shells from the third salvo of the Hood, which had been first to fire, hit the Nazi BB. Hood’s third salvoe strattles Bismarck with shell splinters wounding 6 and killing 1 AA Gunner. Admiral Lutgens is hit in the butt by a spent splinter. No real damage is inflicted on the Bismarck or the admiral. 24 MAY 1941 0554 The Germans opened fire on the Hood with great accuracy provided by the foretop director with the forward 10.5-meter rangefinder and the after FuMO 23 radar antenna. Busmarck’s optical fire control was up to the same high standards as at Jutland and more than compensated the casualty to her forward radar. The second and third salvos straddled and hit the battle cruiser. Fire broke out in her port battery but excellent DC by her crew contain and begin to suppress the fire. 24 MAY 1041 0557 POW begins turn to port and is taken under fire by Prince Eugene 8 inch guns under Director control of her 7-meter rangefinder mounted at the top of the enlarged rangefinder towers, one aft and one on the foretop. The FuMO 27 radar sets with 6 x 12 ft. mattresses antennas was mounted on the directors. 24 MAY 1941 0600 Hood is straddled and hit again. One 15 inch shell impacts the top armor of B turret. Splinters start fires that burns out the gunhouse but does not spread to the handling rooms and magazines. A second 15 in AP shell penetrates her deck armor, wipes out one of her engine rooms & auxilary power rooms, causes moderate flooding and drastically reduces hood’s speed. A third shell destroys the forward main battery director. Hood continues to fire back at Bismark but after a number of near misses Bismarck lands two 15 inch shells abreast and just forward of A turret just below the water line. Hood’s bow is moderately damaged, A turret is jammed and intense flooding further slow the ship to 10 kts. 24 MAY 1941 0635 Captain Kerr informed Vice-Admiral Lancelot Holland in Hood of the ship’s damage. Vice-Admiral Lancelot Holland signalled Captain Leachof Prince Of Wales to screen Hood as she withdraws to effect repairs. 24 MAY 1941 0640 Bismarck, seeing damage to Hood, especially no way she can escape, shifts targets to Prince of Wales. The Germans opened intense and accurate fire on Prince of Wales, with 15-inch, 8-inch and 5.9-inch guns. POW is straddled and hit by the third salvoe destroying her main battery director & Type 284 Radar for main fire control. Bismarck’s fifth salvoe causes heavy hit just above the waterline as Prince of Wales manoeuvred to shield Hood. 24 MAY 1941 0650 a 15-inch shell struck the starboard side of the compass platform and killed the majority of the personnel there. The navigating officer was wounded, Captain Leach suffered debilitating head wound caused by the fragments from the shell's ballistic cap and the material it dislodged in its diagonal path through the compass platform, XO takes command. 24 MAY 1941 0655 15-inch diving shell penetrated the ship's side below the armour belt amidships, exploded in the wing compartments on the starboard side of the after boiler rooms reducing POW max speed to 18 kts. 24 MAY 1941 0705 Vice-Admiral Lancelot Holland in Hood orders DD’s to form up for a daylight torpedoe attack to cover the withdrawal of Hood. POW will continue to enage Bismarck to support Dds. Crusiers will make a flank speed run to Germans unengaged side and commence fire when in range to support the DD attack. Holland hoped to split the Geramn’s fire giving the DDs a small chance of scoring a hit on the Bismarck before they are all sunk. 24 MAY 1941 0715 DDs commence their run, POW continues to engage Bismarck as does the cruisers. Bismarck and Prince Eugene sink or seriously damage Achates, Echo and Icarus before they reach maximum torpedoe range. Antelope, Anthony, Echo, Electra are forced to launch their Mark V torpedoes at maximum range 13,000 yds /slower speed 20 KTS setting. Results no hits. Anthony and Echo are sunk on the way out and Antelope is damaged. Only Electra comes out of the suicide charge intact. 24 MAY 1941 0722 Lookouts on both Bismarck and prince Eugene spot torpedoes launched by Norfolk and sufffolk. Again the Mark Vs were launched at long range 13,000 yds slow speed 20 kts setting because it is a daylight attck. Admiral Lutgens orders his ships to max speed and turn away from the new torpedoe attack. At the same time Prince Eugene scores a hit on the Suffolk’s B turret and splinters destroys her radar. 24 MAY 1941 0726 HMS Suffolk bows are blown off from a forward magazine explosion. Good damage control and superb seamanship keeps the ship afloat until tugs can reach her. 24 MAY 1941 0730 Admiral Lutgens, thinking he has sunk Hood, badly damaged POW, sunk Suffolk and 4 destroyers orders his ships to clear the straight at high speed and head South West into the convoy lanes to prosecute his commerce raiding mission. Lutgens also is wary that more RN capital ships and carriers are closing on the position of the battle. Well satisfied with his ships, crews and having suffered almost no damage, he deems it time to continue their commerce raiding mission. 24 MAY 1941 0800 Vice-Admiral Lancelot Holland shifts his flag to POW. He orders Norfolk, despite the fact she that only the 1.5 m fixed-antenna type 286M, the one that required swinging ship for direction, to shadow Bismarck and Prince Eugene. He orders, Hood, POW, Suffolk, Antelope and Electra to make best speed 5 kts while POW is towing Suffolk stern first back to the UK. 24 MAY 1941 0830 Vice-Admiral Lancelot Holland signals the Admiralty the results of the battle of the Denmark Straight and his urgent need for tugs and escorts if he is to salvage Hood and POW. Note to Joe. What is BB-55 doing leading up and during this battle?
Well that was costly but less so for Britain than OTL as the Hood and most of its crew survive. However a lot of ships damaged and a number sunk. Hood could still sink or be a wright-off.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 3, 2022 15:55:25 GMT
Well that was costly but less so for Britain than OTL as the Hood and most of its crew survive. However a lot of ships damaged and a number sunk. Hood could still sink or be a wright-off. Think about it this way. Six of seven destroyers are either sunk or ruined. Two battleships are mission killed. One heavy cruiser is ruined., All damaged ships are out for 1 to 2 years and at least 1800-2400 British sailors are killed and hundreds wounded. This disaster is worse than the real Denmark Strait, much, much worse. Destroyers lost are more irreplaceable than some one obsolete battlecruiser. The heavy cruiser is also a critical loss. Plus there is nothing to shadow the Bismark now. In the real time line the British cruisers managed to maintain some (radar) contact. Now there is nothing.
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575
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Post by 575 on May 3, 2022 16:21:37 GMT
Looking forward to the effect of ze Iron Chancellor entering WH waters with a USN TG in vicinity.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 3, 2022 16:32:06 GMT
Looking forward to the effect of ze Iron Chancellor entering WH waters with a USN TG in vicinity. To bad there is no US carrier assigned to TG 39.1. Think USS Wasp (CV-7) was operated off the eastern seaboard between Newport, R.I., and Norfolk, conducting extensive flight and patrol operations with her embarked air group in April 1941. USS Wasp air Group would consist of: Fighter Squadron 71: Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat. Fighter Squadron 72 "Fighting Wasp's": Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat. Scout Squadron 71: Vought SB2U-1, -2 Vindicators. Scout Squadron 72 "Centaur Vampires": Vought SB2U-2 Vindicators.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on May 3, 2022 21:44:22 GMT
Well that was costly but less so for Britain than OTL as the Hood and most of its crew survive. However a lot of ships damaged and a number sunk. Hood could still sink or be a wright-off. Think about it this way. Six of seven destroyers are either sunk or ruined. Two battleships are mission killed. One heavy cruiser is ruined., All damaged ships are out for 1 to 2 years and at least 1800-2400 British sailors are killed and hundreds wounded. This disaster is worse than the real Denmark Strait, much, much worse. Destroyers lost are more irreplaceable than some one obsolete battlecruiser. The heavy cruiser is also a critical loss. Plus there is nothing to shadow the Bismark now. In the real time line the British cruisers managed to maintain some (radar) contact. Now there is nothing. Norfolk's radar is not up to Suffolk's but it is still a functioning radar and she does have the speed, sea keeping qualities and fuel to "shadow" Bismarck and Prince Eugene for a few days.
24 MAY 1941 0800 Vice-Admiral Lancelot Holland shifts his flag to POW. He orders Norfolk, despite the fact she that only the 1.5 m fixed-antenna type 286M, the one that required swinging ship for direction, to shadow Bismarck and Prince Eugene.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 3, 2022 22:17:07 GMT
Well that was costly but less so for Britain than OTL as the Hood and most of its crew survive. However a lot of ships damaged and a number sunk. Hood could still sink or be a wright-off. Think about it this way. Six of seven destroyers are either sunk or ruined. Two battleships are mission killed. One heavy cruiser is ruined., All damaged ships are out for 1 to 2 years and at least 1800-2400 British sailors are killed and hundreds wounded. This disaster is worse than the real Denmark Strait, much, much worse. Destroyers lost are more irreplaceable than some one obsolete battlecruiser. The heavy cruiser is also a critical loss. Plus there is nothing to shadow the Bismark now. In the real time line the British cruisers managed to maintain some (radar) contact. Now there is nothing.
I think your over-estimating the number of dead.
It was necessary for the story that British forces be unable to track the Bismarck by sea and also that it avoided the OTL damage that forced it to head to France.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 3, 2022 23:08:26 GMT
Think about it this way. Six of seven destroyers are either sunk or ruined. Two battleships are mission killed. One heavy cruiser is ruined., All damaged ships are out for 1 to 2 years and at least 1800-2400 British sailors are killed and hundreds wounded. This disaster is worse than the real Denmark Strait, much, much worse. Destroyers lost are more irreplaceable than some one obsolete battlecruiser. The heavy cruiser is also a critical loss. Plus there is nothing to shadow the Bismark now. In the real time line the British cruisers managed to maintain some (radar) contact. Now there is nothing.
I think your over-estimating the number of dead.
It was necessary for the story that British forces be unable to track the Bismarck by sea and also that it avoided the OTL damage that forced it to head to France.
5 destroyers sunk with 100% loss of crew.................................................................5 ships x 200 dead= 1,000. 2 destroyers damaged with 50% loss of crew........................................................... 2 ships x 100 dead= 200 1 cruiser with bow blown off and superstructure engulfed 25% of crew.........................1 ship x 150 dead= 150 1 battleship with turret burned out *(Battle of Jutland example; HMS Lion) ..................1 ship x 200 dead= 200 (Hood is a bigger ship) 1 battleship with engine plant and fire rooms knocked out and superstructure on fire..... 1 ship x 250 dead= 250 (PoW numbers based on Force Z.)Battle of annihilation results occur in a weather environment where crew transfer is impossible and the average time until death in the water of any abandon ship survivors is 15 minutes or less. Totals... 8 ships of 10 present destroyed / mission killed and ........................1,800 dead (lowball estimate) and since it was the USN extrapolation that 1 wounded was present for every 2 dead in Ironbottom Sound one can predict 700-900 injured and thus extrapolating we get Savo Island Results. The reason there were only 1000 dead for the Americans in the baseline example: a. is that battle was in a benign weather environment and the abandoned ship survivors could be easily plucked from the water by follow on rescuers and reinforcements. This alternate Denmark Strait is in artic cold water conditions and with no rescue forces present or able to recover men in the water. b. American ships were just better built and more survivable than British ones. Norfolk's radar is not up to Suffolk's but it is still a functioning radar and she does have the speed, sea keeping qualities and fuel to "shadow" Bismarck and Prince Eugene for a few days. Charge and Specification: Abandoning survivors in the water.. in that you did order HMS Norfolk to pursue and track an enemy now beyond radar track horizon, and that knowingly by that order that you condemned an estimated 400-450 floaters and survivors of your command to freeze to death in boats as a result of exposure and die from hypothermia due to cold water immersion. I might just write up that court martial... M.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on May 4, 2022 10:08:14 GMT
I think your over-estimating the number of dead.
It was necessary for the story that British forces be unable to track the Bismarck by sea and also that it avoided the OTL damage that forced it to head to France.
5 destroyers sunk with 100% loss of crew.................................................................5 ships x 200 dead= 1,000. 2 destroyers damaged with 50% loss of crew........................................................... 2 ships x 100 dead= 200 1 cruiser with bow blown off and superstructure engulfed 25% of crew.........................1 ship x 150 dead= 150 1 battleship with turret burned out *(Battle of Jutland example; HMS Lion) ..................1 ship x 200 dead= 200 (Hood is a bigger ship) 1 battleship with engine plant and fire rooms knocked out and superstructure on fire..... 1 ship x 250 dead= 250 (PoW numbers based on Force Z.)Battle of annihilation results occur in a weather environment where crew transfer is impossible and the average time until death in the water of any abandon ship survivors is 15 minutes or less. Totals... 8 ships of 10 present destroyed / mission killed and ........................1,800 dead (lowball estimate) and since it was the USN extrapolation that 1 wounded was present for every 2 dead in Ironbottom Sound one can predict 700-900 injured and thus extrapolating we get Savo Island Results. The reason there were only 1000 dead for the Americans in the baseline example: a. is that battle was in a benign weather environment and the abandoned ship survivors could be easily plucked from the water by follow on rescuers and reinforcements. This alternate Denmark Strait is in artic cold water conditions and with no rescue forces present or able to recover men in the water. b. American ships were just better built and more survivable than British ones. Norfolk's radar is not up to Suffolk's but it is still a functioning radar and she does have the speed, sea keeping qualities and fuel to "shadow" Bismarck and Prince Eugene for a few days. Charge and Specification: Abandoning survivors in the water.. in that you did order HMS Norfolk to pursue and track an enemy now beyond radar track horizon, and that knowingly by that order that you condemned an estimated 400-450 floaters and survivors of your command to freeze to death in boats as a result of exposure and die from hypothermia due to cold water immersion. I might just write up that court martial... M. Please do miletus12; I have my hands full just getting Hewitt and Lütjens into gun range. I'd really like to read that and am sure you will do a very good. IMO in your ATL, the RN will court martial poor Lancelot "with Great Prejudice". If I were writing that ATL CM the Admiral's decision to send Norfolk after Bismarck would be vindicated. The Convoys survival is priority One and vengeance is also a key factor.
I got a feeling you will be much harder on him than I. Might be the fact I have stood before the "Green Table" makes me a more sympathetic and lenient than you!
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 4, 2022 21:40:24 GMT
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 5, 2022 15:12:18 GMT
So what will be the punishment for him, doubt he is going to be set in front a firing squad.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 5, 2022 17:20:24 GMT
So what will be the punishment for him, doubt he is going to be set in front a firing squad. I really do not know. Service record of Ernest Troubridge, revealing a long naval history and many positive remarks from superior officers regarding his ability (Catalogue reference: ADM 196/87/120) Orders from Admiralty to Admiral Sir Archibald Berkeley Milne, 30 July 1914, regarding situation in the Mediterranean. Taken from minutes of court martial proceedings. (Catalogue reference: ADM 156/76) Exhibit 8 in Court Martial of Rear Admiral Troubridge. First Cruiser Squadron positions are shown to the top right, with dotted lines indicating possible points at which the Goeben could have been engaged (Catalogue reference: ADM 137/901/1) Comment.The parallel situation in WWII is not hard to find. It was the Battle of Cape Spartivento. It can be said, here, that stupid mistakes in judgement are hard to fault as criminal acts. These are punished in the context of official career actions, for those responsible, such as abrupt relief from command and refusal to assign the person responsible to any true future position of responsibility. We know this is what happened to Harold Stark, when FDR fired him for gross incompetence as USN Chief of Naval Operations and sent that wretch to the UK to be a mere gladhander and social butterfly among the British. There are the other American examples of the Atomic Playboy, George Blandy, who was King's fall-guy for the American torpedo crisis, although he rehabbed his career postwar, and of Husband Kimmel, who was career ruined by Pearl Harbor. It would take a demonstrated act of cowardice or a deliberate decision to obstinately refuse to act according to instructions to merit a criminal censure. This is what awaited Captain Howard Bode of the USS Chicago, who screwed criminally up during the Battle of Savo Island. This is not what happened. Admiral Fletcher was correct in doctrine and in assessment to pull back out of Japanese air combat range to refuel and rearm (replace lost pilots and expended attack planes, not fighters), for he knew he would have to fight an aircraft carrier battle within the next two weeks to save the landings and the Marines who Turner crassly abandoned, because HE, Turner, was the one who ran after Savo Island, while he, Fletcher, did fight against great odds and WON against Nagumo again. For his reward, he, Fletcher, was career backstabbed by Turner, Nimitz and King and was relieved when he was wounded in action. Nevertheless, once he recovered from injuries received in the Eastern Solomons action, Fletcher was sent to straighten out the mess that was Alaska Command and the Aleutians Campaign. Fletcher won there, too. M. The warning problem was a foul-up between MacArthur (army) and Ghormley (navy). There was interservice rivalry almost Japanese in its intensity among the Americans, plus the American arrogance of freezing out the Australians. While there was more than ample justification to treat the British this way, because of their Eastern Command's demonstrated incompetence, cowardice and general ineptitude during ABDA, the far superior ANZACs were MacArthur frozen out because of his politics and bigotry. One knows how I feel about such arrogance and pride in these matters? As for the float planes, I think PBY reconnaissance would have been better. Turner was tardy setting up a seaplane presence at Tulagi as he was about almost everything else, he touched here. As for the float planes, they should have been landed (removed) from the cruisers as well as the ship's boats as a fire hazard. One will find out why in the battle narrative. Turner's dispositions were amateurish and incompetent. He also ignored the advice of Admiral Crutchley, the British hero of Narvik, who was another complete incompetent, but who was still a boob when it came to proper fleet dispositions (I will comment why in a bit. M.), and Admiral Norman Scott who was most assuredly not incompetent as Turner was. Concentrate behind Savo Island and barrier access to the transports off Linga Point. But Turner, who was not what we could call a tactician or a surface warfare officer, chose to set up three separate patrol lines instead of concentrate. He invited and was defeated in detail. Again incorrect. Turner called Crutchley to attend a posterior-chewing and general Turner temper tantrum. The reason for the meeting had to do with who would issue what orders in the upcoming operation. Turner was upset that Crutchley had tried to assert his proper responsibility as commander of the surface forces in the area. Turner, because he "technically" was the operations commander, wanted to usurp Crutchley's assigned role administratively and operationally. This was ridiculous. The combat forces commander, Crutchley, was there to lead the tactical evolution. Turner, was there to unload the (expletive deleted) transports and get the Marines supplied from forces afloat. It said so in the mission orders. Now as to Captain Bode, and why he should have been cashiered.*1 He ran USS Chicago away from the initial fight and contact with Mikawa's cruisers. That was cowardice, plain and simple. In an earlier time, he would have been executed on the spot and his second would have taken command, because those were standing orders in the United States Navy. AND STILL ARE. ^1
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