1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Apr 27, 2022 18:44:48 GMT
Well sometimes two people can come up with the same original idea. I'm in full agreement with that! Just because something has been done, doesn't mean it can't be done BETTER! Look at Jane's World War I or World War II books. They had the perfect chance to put out the definitive works on the subjects, but instead they went for the quick pound sterling/buck/franc by just reproducing the plates of all the old entries and images their volumes from the relative years, without correcting the errors nor updating the drawings/schematics. I still think Conway's did a better job with their Warships 1905-1921 and 1922-1945 volumes. Senior, You're probably familiar with Jan Niemczyk (formerly JNiemczyk now Bernard Wooley on Stuart's HPCA forum) doing stories on Tiger and Hood in World War II. I've done my own stories on both and they're different than Jan's. I've never published my Hood stories any where, but my Tiger tales were on the Naval Fiction board back in the Boards2go days. They both predate Jan's but it's not like he got either idea from me. Looking forward to your 'sea story' Regards all, |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 27, 2022 18:47:17 GMT
Well sometimes two people can come up with the same original idea. You're probably familiar with Jan Niemczyk (formerly JNiemczyk now Bernard Wooley on Stuart's HPCA forum) doing stories on Tiger and Hood in World War II. A i remember those, he did a couple for the United States Navy as well. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Apr 28, 2022 1:18:03 GMT
She had to get all the way through her shakedown and join the Neutrality patrol before she could meet up with Bismarck in May of '41.
BB-55 OTL dates Ordered 1 August 1937
Builder New York Naval Shipyard
Laid down 27 October 1937
Launched 13 June 1940
Commissioned 9 April 1941Is here sister ship also build several months ahead of their OTL date ore only SHOWBOAT (USS North Carolina). Lordroel, my friend, Given my meager writing talent, I am trying to keep this fairly simple. That means as few variables to confuse the writer as possible. I don't think USS Washington (BB-56) will play any part in this ATL. That could change but I don't think so.
Cheer up there will be "Dog fights" between SOC Seagulls and Arado Ar 196. Who knows, one of the SOCs might be piloted by LtJG Edward Henry "Butch" O'Hare.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 28, 2022 3:21:32 GMT
Who knows, one of the SOCs might be piloted by LtJG Edward Henry "Butch" O'Hare. As long as he makes it, he is destined to become a ace in the Pacific. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Apr 28, 2022 13:49:29 GMT
Who knows, one of the SOCs might be piloted by LtJG Edward Henry "Butch" O'Hare. As long as he makes it, he is destined to become a ace in the Pacific. That's a tall order my friend. The SOC does not match up well with the Ar 196 at first glance. Best bet and most likely scenario is for the Ar 196 spots the SOC first, climbs and then does a power dive and guns Butch's brains out with those two 20mm MG FF canons and 30 cal MMG.
However, the SOC is a Biplane and so has superior maneuvering qualities to the monoplane Ar 196. That means she is a better "dog fighter" if we can even use the term given they are both Scout observation seaplanes.
It is not hopeless for Butch, yah I am going to use him. The boy has to learn sometime and the sooner the better (growls the crusty old CPO  ) If Butch sees him first then he could try the same trick. Instead of blowing through at the end of his first firing run and trying for another pass, Butch flips the very agile SOC onto the tail of the Ar 196 , all the time his rear gunner is hammering at the top, side and undercarriage of the Ar 196 with his .30 cal browning. Once on his tail Butch has to stay there and pray his single .30 browning kills the enemy pilot or engine very quickly, before the German's superior speed take him out of gun range.
I remember in the Nam war, U.S. Navy Skyraiders used their cannon to shoot down two Vietnam People's Air Force MiG-17 jet fighters. Lieutenant Clinton B. Johnson and LTJG Charles W. Hartman III of VA-25, got the first Mig gun kill of the War. LTJG William T. Patton of VA-176 got the second. Please note they were both Naval aviators. 
The biplane Gloucester Gladiators, Faith, Hope and charity also had a few successes over Malta against against both Italian and German monoplane bombers and fighters.
And then there is always the wisdom of the Red Barron. "It's not the crate. It's the man in the crate."
SOC Performance
• Maximum speed: 165 mph, at 5,000 ft
• Cruise speed: 116 kn (133 mph, 214 km/h)
• Stall speed: 48.6 kn (55.9 mph, 90.0 km/h) [13]
• Range: 587 nmi (675 mi, 1,086 km) at 5,000 ft (1,500 m)
• Service ceiling: 14,900 ft (4,500 m)
• Rate of climb: 915 ft/min (4.65 m/s) [12]
Armament
• Guns: 1× fixed, forward firing 0.30 cal Browning M2 AN and 1× flexible mounted rear-firing 0.30 cal Browning M2 AN machine gun
• Bombs: 2× 100 lb bombs or 325 lb depth charges underwing
The Arado Ar 196
was the Kriegsmarine shipboard reconnaissance low-wing monoplane
Bismarck carried four.
Specifications (Ar 196 A-2)
An Arado Ar 196, bearing the squadron markings of the reconnaissance unit assigned to the battleship Bismarck.
General characteristics
• Crew: two (pilot and observer)
• Powerplant: 1 × BMW 132K 9-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engine, 947hp
Performance
• Maximum speed: 193 mph
• Range: 580 nm
• Service ceiling: 23,000ft
• Rate of climb: 980ft/min
Armament
Guns:
2 x 20mm MG FF (in the wings).
1 x 7.92 mm MG (forward).
2 x 7.92 mm MG (twin).
2x 110 lb bombs(under wings).1)
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 28, 2022 13:56:39 GMT
As long as he makes it, he is destined to become a ace in the Pacific. That's a tall order my friend. The SOC does not match up well with the Ar 196 at first glance. Best bet and most likely scenario is for the Ar 196 spots the SOC first, climbs and then does a power dive and guns Butch's brains out with those two 20mm MG FF canons and 30 cal MMG.
However, the SOC is a Biplane and so has superior maneuvering qualities to the monoplane Ar 196. That means she is a better "dog fighter" if we can even use the term given they are both Scout observation seaplanes.
It is not hopeless for Butch, yah I am going to use him. The boy has to learn sometime and the sooner the better (growls the crusty old CPO ) If Butch sees him first then he could try the same trick. Instead of blowing through at the end of his first firing run and trying for another pass, Butch flips the very agile SOC onto the tail of the Ar 196 , all the time his rear gunner is hammering at the top, side and undercarriage of the Ar 196 with his .30 cal browning. Once on his tail Butch has to stay there and pray his single .30 browning kills the enemy pilot or engine very quickly, before the German's superior speed take him out of gun range.
I remember in the Nam war, U.S. Navy Skyraiders used their cannon to shoot down two Vietnam People's Air Force MiG-17 jet fighters. Lieutenant Clinton B. Johnson and LTJG Charles W. Hartman III of VA-25, got the first Mig gun kill of the War. LTJG William T. Patton of VA-176 got the second. Please note they were both Naval aviators.
The biplane Gloucester Gladiators, Faith, Hope and charity also had a few successes over Malta against against both Italian and German monoplane bombers and fighters.
And then there is always the wisdom of the Red Barron. "It's not the crate. It's the man in the crate."
SOC Performance
• Maximum speed: 165 mph, at 5,000 ft
• Cruise speed: 116 kn (133 mph, 214 km/h)
• Stall speed: 48.6 kn (55.9 mph, 90.0 km/h) [13]
• Range: 587 nmi (675 mi, 1,086 km) at 5,000 ft (1,500 m)
• Service ceiling: 14,900 ft (4,500 m)
• Rate of climb: 915 ft/min (4.65 m/s) [12]
Armament
• Guns: 1× fixed, forward firing 0.30 cal Browning M2 AN and 1× flexible mounted rear-firing 0.30 cal Browning M2 AN machine gun
• Bombs: 2× 100 lb bombs or 325 lb depth charges underwing
The Arado Ar 196
was the Kriegsmarine shipboard reconnaissance low-wing monoplane
Bismarck carried four.
Specifications (Ar 196 A-2)
An Arado Ar 196, bearing the squadron markings of the reconnaissance unit assigned to the battleship Bismarck.
General characteristics
• Crew: two (pilot and observer)
• Powerplant: 1 × BMW 132K 9-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engine, 947hp
Performance
• Maximum speed: 193 mph
• Range: 580 nm
• Service ceiling: 23,000ft
• Rate of climb: 980ft/min
Armament
Guns:
2 x 20mm MG FF (in the wings).
1 x 7.92 mm MG (forward).
2 x 7.92 mm MG (twin).
2x 110 lb bombs(under wings).1)
In the end, the skill of the pilot makes the difference in a aerial combat. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Apr 29, 2022 0:23:09 GMT
That's a tall order my friend. The SOC does not match up well with the Ar 196 at first glance. Best bet and most likely scenario is for the Ar 196 spots the SOC first, climbs and then does a power dive and guns Butch's brains out with those two 20mm MG FF canons and 30 cal MMG.
However, the SOC is a Biplane and so has superior maneuvering qualities to the monoplane Ar 196. That means she is a better "dog fighter" if we can even use the term given they are both Scout observation seaplanes.
It is not hopeless for Butch, yah I am going to use him. The boy has to learn sometime and the sooner the better (growls the crusty old CPO  ) If Butch sees him first then he could try the same trick. Instead of blowing through at the end of his first firing run and trying for another pass, Butch flips the very agile SOC onto the tail of the Ar 196 , all the time his rear gunner is hammering at the top, side and undercarriage of the Ar 196 with his .30 cal browning. Once on his tail Butch has to stay there and pray his single .30 browning kills the enemy pilot or engine very quickly, before the German's superior speed take him out of gun range.
I remember in the Nam war, U.S. Navy Skyraiders used their cannon to shoot down two Vietnam People's Air Force MiG-17 jet fighters. Lieutenant Clinton B. Johnson and LTJG Charles W. Hartman III of VA-25, got the first Mig gun kill of the War. LTJG William T. Patton of VA-176 got the second. Please note they were both Naval aviators. 
The biplane Gloucester Gladiators, Faith, Hope and charity also had a few successes over Malta against against both Italian and German monoplane bombers and fighters.
And then there is always the wisdom of the Red Barron. "It's not the crate. It's the man in the crate."
SOC Performance
• Maximum speed: 165 mph, at 5,000 ft
• Cruise speed: 116 kn (133 mph, 214 km/h)
• Stall speed: 48.6 kn (55.9 mph, 90.0 km/h) [13]
• Range: 587 nmi (675 mi, 1,086 km) at 5,000 ft (1,500 m)
• Service ceiling: 14,900 ft (4,500 m)
• Rate of climb: 915 ft/min (4.65 m/s) [12]
Armament
• Guns: 1× fixed, forward firing 0.30 cal Browning M2 AN and 1× flexible mounted rear-firing 0.30 cal Browning M2 AN machine gun
• Bombs: 2× 100 lb bombs or 325 lb depth charges underwing
The Arado Ar 196
was the Kriegsmarine shipboard reconnaissance low-wing monoplane
Bismarck carried four.
Specifications (Ar 196 A-2)
An Arado Ar 196, bearing the squadron markings of the reconnaissance unit assigned to the battleship Bismarck.
General characteristics
• Crew: two (pilot and observer)
• Powerplant: 1 × BMW 132K 9-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engine, 947hp
Performance
• Maximum speed: 193 mph
• Range: 580 nm
• Service ceiling: 23,000ft
• Rate of climb: 980ft/min
Armament
Guns:
2 x 20mm MG FF (in the wings).
1 x 7.92 mm MG (forward).
2 x 7.92 mm MG (twin).
2x 110 lb bombs(under wings).1)
In the end, the skill of the pilot makes the difference in a aerial combat. Lordroel, my friend, to expand upon your axiom. Been my experience on a reasonably level playing field, the skill of the pilot/athlete/lawyer/surgeon/cook/ mechanic/hooker etc. makes the difference in a just about all forms of human endeavor. It also works on a very "crooked field" if the skill level is high enough and backed by real guts.
I sometimes have problems reconciling that with another Great Truth. "Money talks and Bull Sh!t walks. But that's just me....I'm funny that way.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Apr 29, 2022 14:39:48 GMT
25 APRIL 1941 Convoy HX 123 departs Halifax Nova Scotia with 43 merchants
1. Old BB Ramilies
4 Town class Ex USN WW I DDs
including the future famous HMSCampbeltown, ExUSN DD 131, of the St Nazaire Raid
3 Modified WW I W class DDs
7 Flower class Corvets
4 old ASW sloops/frigates
1 Armed Merchant Cruiser.
29 APRIL 1941 Convoy HX 123 950 miles south East of Halifax.
BB HMS Ramillies, has a catastrophic casualty to a high pressure turbine. The internal explosion fractures the casing sending shrapnel through the engine room that cuts down the Chief ERA and many of the engineers. Much of the piping requires patching and replacement. Serious damage is done the engine room’s other high pressure turbine. On inspection it is determined the 2nd turbine requires shipyard repair. With her speed substantially reduced Ramillies is ordered back to Halifax with a W class DD and ASW sloop as escort.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 29, 2022 14:42:12 GMT
25 APRIL 1941 Convoy HX 123 departs Halifax Nova Scotia with 43 merchants
2. Old BBs; Collingwood & Ramilies
4 Town class Ex USN WW I DDs
including the future famous HMSCampbeltown, ExUSN DD 131, of the St Nazaire Raid
3 Modified WW I W class DDs
6 Flower class Corvets
3 old ASW sloops
1 Armed Merchant Cruiser. So they prey for THE IRON CHANCELLOR has left its cage. |
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oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
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Post by oscssw on Apr 29, 2022 15:52:03 GMT
25 APRIL 1941 Convoy HX 123 departs Halifax Nova Scotia with 43 merchants
2. Old BBs; Collingwood & Ramilies
4 Town class Ex USN WW I DDs
including the future famous HMSCampbeltown, ExUSN DD 131, of the St Nazaire Raid
3 Modified WW I W class DDs
6 Flower class Corvets
3 old ASW sloops
1 Armed Merchant Cruiser. So they prey for THE IRON CHANCELLOR has left its cage. Lordroel, See correction to 25 APRIL 1941 entry I confused BB Collingwood with Corvet Collingwood. Correction made . I'm still getting my sea legs on this ATL business. It's not easy but I am starting to like what I am doing.
I sure as hell am learning a lot about the subject as I try to use as much OTL as possible in the new ATL. 
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 29, 2022 15:54:09 GMT
So they prey for THE IRON CHANCELLOR has left its cage. Lordroel, See correction to 25 APRIL 1941 entry I confused BB Collingwood with Corvet Collingwood. Correction made . I'm still getting my sea legs on this ATL business. It's not easy but I am starting to like what I am doing.
I sure as hell am learning a lot about the subject as I try to use as much OTL as possible in the new ATL. 
You are doing a good job Senior Chief, just take it slow and everything will work out, i will promise that i will not allow anybody to feed your TL to the sharks, ore you. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Apr 29, 2022 18:07:10 GMT
That's the truth, Senior Chief! Alone of the world's air services at the time, the USN was training pilots in defection shooting; nearly every other air force in the world was doing the same training, maneuver. It's the reason an ostensibly inferior fighter like the Wildcat was able to hold its own against the 'superior' Japanese Type Zero. Outside the USN, the most famous practitioner of deflection shooting was George Beurling. And it got him shipped off to Malta; when he was in the UK, he was constantly claiming Germans shot down, but when his gun camera footage was developed it showed him only shooting at empty air. George was a hunter, BTW, so he understood leading a target, shooting where the target will be when the bullets arrive, not shooting where the target is, because the bullets will miss. Regards, |
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575
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There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Apr 29, 2022 18:07:34 GMT
So they prey for THE IRON CHANCELLOR has left its cage. Lordroel, See correction to 25 APRIL 1941 entry I confused BB Collingwood with Corvet Collingwood. Correction made . I'm still getting my sea legs on this ATL business. It's not easy but I am starting to like what I am doing.
I sure as hell am learning a lot about the subject as I try to use as much OTL as possible in the new ATL.
Thats the annoying though highly educational part of this writing; you just have to read a lot of history and then decide what to use and what to change and how!  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 29, 2022 18:09:53 GMT
Lordroel, See correction to 25 APRIL 1941 entry I confused BB Collingwood with Corvet Collingwood. Correction made . I'm still getting my sea legs on this ATL business. It's not easy but I am starting to like what I am doing.
I sure as hell am learning a lot about the subject as I try to use as much OTL as possible in the new ATL.
Thats the annoying though highly educational part of this writing; you just have to read a lot of history and then decide what to use and what to change and how! Ore in Senior Chief case, have live true it. |
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oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
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Post by oscssw on May 1, 2022 0:56:37 GMT
Thats the annoying though highly educational part of this writing; you just have to read a lot of history and then decide what to use and what to change and how!  Ore in Senior Chief case, have live true it. Old guy jokes are always greatly appreciated, especially when I have been living on borrowed time since Feb '68.
Now I'm not admitting how old I really am but my first DivO was named Noah and that was long before he got his first and only command...The Ark. Ran it into a mountain top and the Court Martial Board put him on the beach with a bucket and shovel .... for good.  |
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) If Butch sees him first then he could try the same trick. Instead of blowing through at the end of his first firing run and trying for another pass, Butch flips the very agile SOC onto the tail of the Ar 196 , all the time his rear gunner is hammering at the top, side and undercarriage of the Ar 196 with his .30 cal browning. Once on his tail Butch has to stay there and pray his single .30 browning kills the enemy pilot or engine very quickly, before the German's superior speed take him out of gun range. 
) If Butch sees him first then he could try the same trick. Instead of blowing through at the end of his first firing run and trying for another pass, Butch flips the very agile SOC onto the tail of the Ar 196 , all the time his rear gunner is hammering at the top, side and undercarriage of the Ar 196 with his .30 cal browning. Once on his tail Butch has to stay there and pray his single .30 browning kills the enemy pilot or engine very quickly, before the German's superior speed take him out of gun range. 
