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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Mar 14, 2023 16:46:27 GMT
China from 1936 to 1894 AD - just before the First Sino Japanese War.
The Chinese give Japan as solid whooping. What then?
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Mar 19, 2023 14:06:00 GMT
UK from 1860 to 476 AD.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 19, 2023 14:51:39 GMT
Well, no empire, means no overseas trade, and probably massive starvation until the British organize an invasion of France; er Gaul, er Frankreich. OTOH, the British will have the steampunk population and technology basis to build an empire and take over much of adjacent Europe. Then they spread out and make their mark on the rest of the planet. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2023 17:35:36 GMT
Well, no empire, means no overseas trade, and probably massive starvation until the British organize an invasion of France; er Gaul, er Frankreich. OTOH, the British will have the steampunk population and technology basis to build an empire and take over much of adjacent Europe. Then they spread out and make their mark on the rest of the planet.
Serious shortages but probably not mass starvation as Britain still has a substantial home base for food production. Going to have to reorganize things a lot however and ultimately moving into the continent. Possibly also heavy reliance on known fisheries i.e. off Iceland and the Grand Banks as well as more local resources.
Britain is pretty much at the peak of its strength at the time and hence highly self-contained in terms of industrial development although some areas with be hit hard. Some areas will suffer badly, such as the cotton industry with no raw material to process.
The need for significant government action in the short term could avoid or at least minimise the disastrous addiction to laissez faire ideas.
Not sure how relations will go with the assorted OTL states in Europe. Could end up preferring trading with some of the so called barbarian states rather than the 'civilized' later Roman states with their extreme levels of centralization and brutality despite the respect that many in the elite had for classical Greece and Rome.
Likely to see a fairly rapid development of N America as its very rich potential territory with easy access and minimal opposite from the locals. [Unfortunately such an expansion is likely to be little better than the historical expansion of assorted nations into the Americas given standards at the time.] 
One good thing with no Americans is we don't end up fighting their wars for them while their screwing over things all over the place.  |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 20, 2023 18:13:00 GMT
Serious shortages but probably not mass starvation as Britain still has a substantial home base for food production. Going to have to reorganize things a lot however and ultimately moving into the continent. Possibly also heavy reliance on known fisheries i.e. off Iceland and the Grand Banks as well as more local resources.
You've forgotten Ireland imports and American WHEAT. Britain is pretty much at the peak of its strength at the time and hence highly self-contained in terms of industrial development although some areas with be hit hard. Some areas will suffer badly, such as the cotton industry with no raw material to process. And Scandinavian TIMBER. Cotton you can steal from Egypt. The need for significant government action in the short term could avoid or at least minimise the disastrous addiction to laissez faire ideas. With that idiot; Palmerston? Not sure how relations will go with the assorted OTL states in Europe. Could end up preferring trading with some of the so called barbarian states rather than the 'civilized' later Roman states with their extreme levels of centralization and brutality despite the respect that many in the elite had for classical Greece and Rome. Here you have a point. Huns and Visigoths will be Armstronged (cannon) into trade agreements or early graves. The Eastern Empire might need a visit from the Royal Navy to conduct trade negotiations in the British manner. Likely to see a fairly rapid development of N America as its very rich potential territory with easy access and minimal opposite from the locals. [Unfortunately such an expansion is likely to be little better than the historical expansion of assorted nations into the Americas given standards at the time.] The British are in luck. No Founding Fathers are present to begin the long process of dismantling the "empire". |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 20, 2023 18:23:42 GMT
One good thing with no Americans is we don't endoccured up fighting their wars for them while their screwing over things all over the place.  Seriously with the India partition and the artificial boundaries drawn up in the Middle East and in Africa and the mess the HMG made at Versailles, there is very little anywhere on Earth, where the British Foreign Office mistakes have occurred: that has not involved AMERICANS coming behind them; trying to put out international fires caused by and rectifying those BRITISH mistakes. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2023 23:13:41 GMT
Serious shortages but probably not mass starvation as Britain still has a substantial home base for food production. Going to have to reorganize things a lot however and ultimately moving into the continent. Possibly also heavy reliance on known fisheries i.e. off Iceland and the Grand Banks as well as more local resources.
You've forgotten Ireland imports and American WHEAT. Britain is pretty much at the peak of its strength at the time and hence highly self-contained in terms of industrial development although some areas with be hit hard. Some areas will suffer badly, such as the cotton industry with no raw material to process. And Scandinavian TIMBER. Cotton you can steal from Egypt. The need for significant government action in the short term could avoid or at least minimise the disastrous addiction to laissez faire ideas. With that idiot; Palmerston? Not sure how relations will go with the assorted OTL states in Europe. Could end up preferring trading with some of the so called barbarian states rather than the 'civilized' later Roman states with their extreme levels of centralization and brutality despite the respect that many in the elite had for classical Greece and Rome. Here you have a point. Huns and Visigoths will be Armstronged (cannon) into trade agreements or early graves. The Eastern Empire might need a visit from the Royal Navy to conduct trade negotiations in the British manner. Likely to see a fairly rapid development of N America as its very rich potential territory with easy access and minimal opposite from the locals. [Unfortunately such an expansion is likely to be little better than the historical expansion of assorted nations into the Americas given standards at the time.] The British are in luck. No Founding Fathers are present to begin the long process of dismantling the "empire".
1) No I haven't
2) Scandinavia timber is still there, although growing less important to 1860 UK. Trade with Egypt is a possibility, although with some political and logistical problems to sort out but I doubt they have anything like the quantity that the British cotton industry was consuming at this period. On the other hand most of the market for those exports have gone so there's going to be a massive contraction in the markets in the short/medium term.
3) The primary idiot was Gladstone, along with people like Bright. In a crisis like this attitudes are likely to be forced to change.
4) Huns are pretty much history by now. Many of the Germanic rulers are likely to come to terms, finding out that they need to avoid attacks on British areas or trade but otherwise finding some significant possible advantages.
5) No parasites to seek to undermine everything out of pure greed.  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2023 23:19:59 GMT
One good thing with no Americans is we don't endoccured up fighting their wars for them while their screwing over things all over the place. Seriously with the India partition and the artificial boundaries drawn up in the Middle East and in Africa and the mess the HMG made at Versailles, there is very little anywhere on Earth, where the British Foreign Office mistakes have occurred: that has not involved AMERICANS coming behind them; trying to put out international fires caused by and rectifying those BRITISH mistakes.
It was the US that screwed up Versailles and then sought to prevent stability in Europe in the following decades because the greedy idiots wanted to prevent economic recovery in western Europe. The old zero sum morocracy that has always led to disaster.
Ditto for the mess that the US made in the ME in 56 by backstabbing its allies for no reason other than sheer egomania. Which their continued to make worse and worse ever since! Make the devastation their inflicted on Latin America look almost
India was a result of an exhausted Britain wanting out of the burden and the population too blinded by their hatreds to live in peace.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 21, 2023 0:22:12 GMT
1617AD Sweden ISOTTED to 793AD.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 21, 2023 7:33:57 GMT
1617AD Sweden ISOTTED to 793AD. Instead of Gustavus dies at Lützen - Charlemagne dies at (insert location) |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Mar 21, 2023 7:45:54 GMT
Do we witness a Swedish crusade against Catholic Europe?
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 21, 2023 8:31:59 GMT
Do we witness a Swedish crusade against Catholic Europe? Gustavus then have to go either West to Saxony or south to Poland and Bohemia. The sack of Holy Island/Lindisfarne is taking place this year - opening of Viking Raids in the West. An ally? |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Mar 21, 2023 10:28:44 GMT
1800 France to 1756 AD - beginning of the Seven Years War.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 21, 2023 14:37:06 GMT
1800 France to 1756 AD - beginning of the Seven Years War.
Well that's going to be chaotic. If its 1800 borders I think their already occupied a number of regions, which will anger and worry a lot of nations, including Austria and their overthrow of the monarchy and execution of the royal family will make that worse. Likely you have a grand crusade against Republican France - although technically it was the Consulate as Napoleon was starting to centralize power before he made himself emperor.
Whether such a crusade is going to have much success I doubt however as 1800 France is militarily very powerful. Plus depending on the date of the ISOT what will be relations between Prussia and Austria?
Another factor is that France still have a substantial overseas empire - noticeably including Canada and Louisiana. How are those regions going to react to a republican France that had deposed the Bourbon monarchy?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 21, 2023 14:47:15 GMT
Do we witness a Swedish crusade against Catholic Europe? Gustavus then have to go either West to Saxony or south to Poland and Bohemia. The sack of Holy Island/Lindisfarne is taking place this year - opening of Viking Raids in the West. An ally?
Aren't all of those areas still largely pagan at this point - although Saxony has been badly sacked by Charlemagne by this time. How would Gustavus react to the idea of supporting pagans against Christians, albeit Catholics?
One other option might be to go west and secure Denmark and Norway, which he should be able to do fairly quickly. Seek to convert them to Lutheranism and also securing control of the entrances to the Baltic. Then possibly turning south to challenge Catholic conquests in Germany?
The Sweden's will have a massive military advantage but will need allies and also there could be issues of logistics in many areas. Mind you the possibility with their navy of a raid on Rome could be an interest for him. |
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