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Post by diamondstorm on Apr 1, 2023 15:22:28 GMT
Whoever it is would have to want to not go through with firing on Fort Sumter. That ruined any chance of the South seceding with relative peace.
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Post by American hist on Apr 13, 2023 20:43:05 GMT
What Killed the Confederacy discussion Sure Davis did a number of stupid choices but not everything is to blame on Davis sometimes the Confederate people and its leaders had more to blame and Davis was the scapegoat, but I agree Davis did a poor job as commander and chief
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Post by American hist on Jul 7, 2023 18:41:24 GMT
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Post by American hist on Nov 5, 2023 19:11:08 GMT
Abe Lincoln is remembered as America's greatest president , but it is a interesting though impossible scenario if he was decided to lead the CSA as president had circumstances proved different. Some people argue that the outcome would have happened the same, but I strongly disagree. It is difficult to decide when the South had the best chances military to succeed so I would prefer Discussions to be made at the beginning of what the South could have done differently. What the south needed to do The South should have tried to buy up time and use its cotton in exchange it for war supplies However because the South was heading to total war in exchange for government usage of the railroad the government it could assist proper maintenance of Southern railroads. Historically the South railroad policy was that of laissez-faire which could be difficult when transporting the soldiers. Ironically it seems the railroads would’ve been better off if they were controlled by the government which the railroads favored this approach as they companies needed adequate funds for maintance. The South theoretically could use immigration contracts from Irish families where the South would pay for the ship passage in exchange for you coming and living in the case and work in vital economic sectors such as factors in Georgia. The CSA constitution practically prevented corporate welfare but it was blank if it was a temporary measure for its means of defense. www.c-span.org/video/?320456-1/railroads-civil-war
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 8, 2023 1:09:50 GMT
Three separate matters in that last post, with one minor one tacked on.
Minor one first: If it is impossible for Lincoln to become CSA President, and I would agree that it is, then don't mention it or open with it. The idea has nothing to do with the interconnected ones that follow.
A.) Cotton for war supplies: An issue somewhere between complex and not-simple. The major foreign market for Confederate cotton was Britain, but this was not utterly dependent on Southern cotton, having other sources. There is also the matter of the Union blockade which precluded such easy exchange. B.) Government payment needs a source for revenue, which is what hit the CSA in @. Deprived of foreign trade, they have quite limited internal sources of revenue, whilst the railroads are also deprived of their major prewar customer. Even if the CSA government takes control in 1861, the money still has to come from somewhere. C.) Immigration isn't a viable notion during wartime on account of the blockade.
The only winning move was not to secede.
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Post by American hist on Dec 18, 2023 23:32:14 GMT
Well, the South would have to build up its fleet for the CSA to have immigration ships which in 1861, and perhaps 1862 could work depending on altered conditions. Indian and Egyptian cotton is inferior to southern cotton the south could actually produce greater quantities it’s just transportation patients were the issue.
A list of who would’ve been good diplomatic, candidates is of the following Judah, Benjamin to France, Francis Wilkinson Pickens to Russia, Richard Kidder Meade to Brazil, and maybe William PreMaybeto Spain as he was the us diplomat in 1861. One alternative history work, James Chestnut could be a diplomat from the south of Spain. James Williams probably should remain in the ottoman empire as a confederate diplomat. I name all these diplomats because they previously had experience as US diplomats, and they seem to of been competent at their job.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 19, 2023 11:58:22 GMT
The South building up its 'fleet' is pretty hard to do when under a comprehensive blockade. Immigration during war is an absolute non-starter. You haven't answered or rebutted this, simply reiterated your point. The CSA didn't have the shipbuilding capacity nor the ability to build sufficient ships to break the Union blockade. Other states didn't want to do it for them. Transportation issues is a short, almost euphemistic way of saying that the CSA was under blockade and could not export more than a little trickle compared to prewar trade levels. Indian and Egyptian cotton may have been less than optimal, but the latter absolutely increased and did serve as a substitute (https://www.nytimes.com/1864/06/26/archives/egyptian-cotton-its-modern-origin-and-the-importance-of-the-supply.html and www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-american-civil-war-built-egypts-vaunted-cotton-industry-and-changed-country-forever-180959967/ ). Egyptian cotton also supplanted that from the Southern United States in fairly short order in terms of quality ( southwritlarge.com/articles/king-cotton-the-khedive-and-the-american-civil-war/ ). Indian cotton provided the bulk amounts needed that made up for any questions of comparative quality. ( www.english.uga.edu/sites/default/files/2009-2010_Barnett_Mays_John.pdf ). In the end, King Cotton wore a false and hollow crown, as it did not drive Britain into the arms of the CSA. A list of diplomats is fairly irrelevant to the issue, as the problem wasn't the personnel, but the separatist state. No matter the loquacity of individuals, the broader interests of the nations and empires in question are stronger factors.
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Post by American hist on Dec 19, 2023 19:22:27 GMT
The South building up its 'fleet' is pretty hard to do when under a comprehensive blockade. Immigration during war is an absolute non-starter. You haven't answered or rebutted this, simply reiterated your point. The CSA didn't have the shipbuilding capacity nor the ability to build sufficient ships to break the Union blockade. Other states didn't want to do it for them. Transportation issues is a short, almost euphemistic way of saying that the CSA was under blockade and could not export more than a little trickle compared to prewar trade levels. Indian and Egyptian cotton may have been less than optimal, but the latter absolutely increased and did serve as a substitute (https://www.nytimes.com/1864/06/26/archives/egyptian-cotton-its-modern-origin-and-the-importance-of-the-supply.html and www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-american-civil-war-built-egypts-vaunted-cotton-industry-and-changed-country-forever-180959967/ ). Egyptian cotton also supplanted that from the Southern United States in fairly short order in terms of quality ( southwritlarge.com/articles/king-cotton-the-khedive-and-the-american-civil-war/ ). Indian cotton provided the bulk amounts needed that made up for any questions of comparative quality. ( www.english.uga.edu/sites/default/files/2009-2010_Barnett_Mays_John.pdf ). In the end, King Cotton wore a false and hollow crown, as it did not drive Britain into the arms of the CSA. A list of diplomats is fairly irrelevant to the issue, as the problem wasn't the personnel, but the separatist state. No matter the loquacity of individuals, the broader interests of the nations and empires in question are stronger factors. The list of better diplomats does not relate to the blockade as this discussion is about superior confederate leadership. King cotton is still a monarch it has its limits. Many historians have argued if the CSA could win its independence it should have been done in the early years of the war such as 62 some are 63 and even a few argue that it could have been done in 1861. In 1861, that same year Confederate privateers made fortunes in privateering,but by the end of 1861 it was no longer a relatively safe (job in comparison to civil War occupations during 1861. ) As for blockade running the north started out 42 at active ships , which only three ships were meant for blockading . The Union navy eed had to cover from the Gulf of Mexico to Virginia which add first was a daunting task as Confederates called it a paper as its effectiveness, and the early part of the war was of that name. Crates full of Lee enfields, and other weapons, including rations from England were sent to the Confederate military from Southerncash crop exports . New Orleans was one the most important confederate blockade ports which confederate could have had superior defenses,preventing a comparative quick and relatively easy capture. However, different circumstances I start with the confederates, not attacking Fort Sumter which already , provide a different political climate. Well, it is true the Confederate Navy dwarfed the Union as it began with no navy the Confederates maybe it’s not have had to blockade other people's coasts it nearly had to protect its main shipping lanes or blockade-running ports. Fort Sumter can equal New York City's separation. The CSA navy was granted limited resources ,but it was also do overemphasizing the needs of the army. Malory was placed as secretary of the navy because he was of the very few southerners, who were really qualified or had interest in the position. This is one example of how it displays at the south and not have a maritime tradition like New England had. A quick or Quicker southern victory war is important that it could make sure that southern cotton will remain king. Well, Brennan had colonies to produce cotton in France did not have cotton production colonies at this time. A superior confederate diplomacy agendawith superior diplomats, (rather then what the south had historically) play a key role in providing ships or supplies for the southern war effort. The CSS Alabama is one example of a confederate ship produced in the British ports www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/confederate-commerce-raiders-and-privateers.htmlNo doubt, a immigration shipping to be slow release in comparison with a blockade Runner I think. However, that is the point of having their ships to escort the vessel. Early on Jefferson to policy in 1861 and part of 1862 he wasted a lot of Manpower by scattering forces out on the costal fort Guaring places where invasion would never come. I think the south could have spent more resources to protect blockade runners with more fortifications and smaller craft at least at some point. Fort Pulaski which ended in a Northern victory not only gave the north a place to stage attacks against the blockade runners route the CSA fort helped protect, blockade runners coming back home. That eventually Jefferson Davis realized that a lot of the troops were not necessary for them to be scattered out throughout the kid, but that’s not the main point of my argument. Also, as for the cotton embargo, some of this was done by the states authority. There are examples where it would’ve been a better idea for the south to grow more food rather than cotton, but this also has to put in the factors for transportation. As the north had a large amount of control, all the rivers throughout the war. One interesting fact is that the battle of fort Donelson, the confederate artillery, which was shooting cannonballs, were surprised that it did quite a big deal of damage against the ironclads when they were close up. It took a long time for a lot of them to have metal ships as most were made from wood. To end my post briefly it is true that the South had armament issues but I think the difference would be if their cannons were the equivalent to the north such as the battles, New Orleans, Fort Sumter, Fort, Henry, and fort Donelson, and other engagements in the lower sea bed.
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Post by American hist on Dec 19, 2023 22:43:25 GMT
The South building up its 'fleet' is pretty hard to do when under a comprehensive blockade. Immigration during war is an absolute non-starter. You haven't answered or rebutted this, simply reiterated your point. The CSA didn't have the shipbuilding capacity nor the ability to build sufficient ships to break the Union blockade. Other states didn't want to do it for them. Transportation issues is a short, almost euphemistic way of saying that the CSA was under blockade and could not export more than a little trickle compared to prewar trade levels. Indian and Egyptian cotton may have been less than optimal, but the latter absolutely increased and did serve as a substitute (https://www.nytimes.com/1864/06/26/archives/egyptian-cotton-its-modern-origin-and-the-importance-of-the-supply.html and www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-american-civil-war-built-egypts-vaunted-cotton-industry-and-changed-country-forever-180959967/ ). Egyptian cotton also supplanted that from the Southern United States in fairly short order in terms of quality ( southwritlarge.com/articles/king-cotton-the-khedive-and-the-american-civil-war/ ). Indian cotton provided the bulk amounts needed that made up for any questions of comparative quality. ( www.english.uga.edu/sites/default/files/2009-2010_Barnett_Mays_John.pdf ). In the end, King Cotton wore a false and hollow crown, as it did not drive Britain into the arms of the CSA. A list of diplomats is fairly irrelevant to the issue, as the problem wasn't the personnel, but the separatist state. No matter the loquacity of individuals, the broader interests of the nations and empires in question are stronger factors. The list of better diplomats does not relate to the blockade as this discussion is about superior confederate leadership. King cotton is still a monarch it has its limits. Many historians have argued if the CSA could win its independence it should have been done in the early years of the war such as 62 some are 63 and even a few argue that it could have been done in 1861. In 1861, that same year Confederate privateers made fortunes in privateering,but by the end of 1861 it was no longer a relatively safe (job in comparison to civil War occupations during 1861. ) As for blockade running the north started out 42 at active ships , which only three ships were meant for blockading . The Union navy eed had to cover from the Gulf of Mexico to Virginia which add first was a daunting task as Confederates called it a paper as its effectiveness, and the early part of the war was of that name. Crates full of Lee enfields, and other weapons, including rations from England were sent to the Confederate military from Southerncash crop exports . New Orleans was one the most important confederate blockade ports which confederate could have had superior defenses,preventing a comparative quick and relatively easy capture. However, different circumstances I start with the confederates, not attacking Fort Sumter which already , provide a different political climate. Well, it is true the Confederate Navy dwarfed the Union as it began with no navy the Confederates maybe it’s not have had to blockade other people's coasts it nearly had to protect its main shipping lanes or blockade-running ports. Fort Sumter can equal New York City's separation. The CSA navy was granted limited resources ,but it was also do overemphasizing the needs of the army. Malory was placed as secretary of the navy because he was of the very few southerners, who were really qualified or had interest in the position. This is one example of how it displays at the south and not have a maritime tradition like New England had. A quick or Quicker southern victory war is important that it could make sure that southern cotton will remain king. While the British had colonies to produce cotton , France did not have cotton production colonies at this time. A superior confederate diplomacy agendawith superior diplomats, (rather then what the south had historically) play a key role in providing ships or supplies for the southern war effort. The CSS Alabama is one example of a confederate ship produced in the British ports www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/confederate-commerce-raiders-and-privateers.htmlNo doubt, a immigration shipping to be slower in comparison with a blockade Runner I think. However, that is the point of having their ships to escort the vessel. Early on Jefferson to policy in 1861 and part of 1862 he wasted a lot of Manpower by scattering forces out on the costal fort Guarding places where invasion would never come. I think the south could have spent more resources to protect blockade runners with more fortifications and smaller craft at least at some point. Fort Pulaski which ended in a Northern victory not only gave the north a place to stage attacks against the blockade runners route the CSA fort helped protect, blockade runners coming back home. That eventually Jefferson Davis realized that a lot of the troops were not necessary for them to be scattered out throughout the kid, but that’s not the main point of my argument. Also, as for the cotton embargo, some of this was done by the states authority. There are examples where it would’ve been a better idea for the south to grow more food rather than cotton, but this also has to put in the factors for transportation. As the north had a large amount of control, all the rivers throughout the war. One interesting fact is that the battle of fort Donelson, the confederate artillery, which was shooting cannonballs, were surprised that it did quite a big deal of damage against the ironclads when they were close up. It took a long time for a lot of them to have metal ships as most were made from wood. To end my post briefly it is true that the South had armament issues but I think the difference would be if their cannons were the equivalent to the north such as the battles, New Orleans, Fort Sumter, Fort, Henry, and fort Donelson, and other engagements in the lower sea bed.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 20, 2023 4:20:38 GMT
The South building up its 'fleet' is pretty hard to do when under a comprehensive blockade. Immigration during war is an absolute non-starter. You haven't answered or rebutted this, simply reiterated your point. The CSA didn't have the shipbuilding capacity nor the ability to build sufficient ships to break the Union blockade. Other states didn't want to do it for them. Transportation issues is a short, almost euphemistic way of saying that the CSA was under blockade and could not export more than a little trickle compared to prewar trade levels. Indian and Egyptian cotton may have been less than optimal, but the latter absolutely increased and did serve as a substitute (https://www.nytimes.com/1864/06/26/archives/egyptian-cotton-its-modern-origin-and-the-importance-of-the-supply.html and www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-american-civil-war-built-egypts-vaunted-cotton-industry-and-changed-country-forever-180959967/ ). Egyptian cotton also supplanted that from the Southern United States in fairly short order in terms of quality ( southwritlarge.com/articles/king-cotton-the-khedive-and-the-american-civil-war/ ). Indian cotton provided the bulk amounts needed that made up for any questions of comparative quality. ( www.english.uga.edu/sites/default/files/2009-2010_Barnett_Mays_John.pdf ). In the end, King Cotton wore a false and hollow crown, as it did not drive Britain into the arms of the CSA. A list of diplomats is fairly irrelevant to the issue, as the problem wasn't the personnel, but the separatist state. No matter the loquacity of individuals, the broader interests of the nations and empires in question are stronger factors. The list of better diplomats does not relate to the blockade as this discussion is about superior confederate leadership. King cotton is still a monarch it has its limits. Many historians have argued if the CSA could win its independence it should have been done in the early years of the war such as 62 some are 63 and even a few argue that it could have been done in 1861. In 1861, that same year Confederate privateers made fortunes in privateering, but by the end of 1861 it was no longer a relatively safe (job in comparison to civil War occupations during 1861. ) As for blockade running the north started out 42 at active ships , which only three ships were meant for blockading . The Union navy eed had to cover from the Gulf of Mexico to Virginia which add first was a daunting task as Confederates called it a paper as its effectiveness, and the early part of the war was of that name. Crates full of Lee enfields, and other weapons, including rations from England were sent to the Confederate military from Southern cash crop exports . New Orleans was one the most important confederate blockade ports which confederate could have had superior defenses, preventing a comparative quick and relatively easy capture. However, different circumstances I start with the confederates, not attacking Fort Sumter which already , provide a different political climate. Well, it is true the Confederate Navy dwarfed the Union as it began with no navy the Confederates maybe it’s not have had to blockade other people's coasts it nearly had to protect its main shipping lanes or blockade-running ports. Fort Sumter can equal New York City's separation. The CSA navy was granted limited resources ,but it was also do overemphasizing the needs of the army. Malory was placed as secretary of the navy because he was of the very few southerners, who were really qualified or had interest in the position. This is one example of how it displays at the south and not have a maritime tradition like New England had. A quick or Quicker southern victory war is important that it could make sure that southern cotton will remain king. Well, Brennan had colonies to produce cotton in France did not have cotton production colonies at this time. A superior confederate diplomacy agenda with superior diplomats, (rather then what the south had historically) play a key role in providing ships or supplies for the southern war effort. The CSS Alabama is one example of a confederate ship produced in the British ports www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/confederate-commerce-raiders-and-privateers.htmlNo doubt, a immigration shipping to be slow release in comparison with a blockade Runner I think. However, that is the point of having their ships to escort the vessel. Early on Jefferson to policy in 1861 and part of 1862 he wasted a lot of Manpower by scattering forces out on the costal fort Guaring places where invasion would never come. I think the south could have spent more resources to protect blockade runners with more fortifications and smaller craft at least at some point. Fort Pulaski which ended in a Northern victory not only gave the north a place to stage attacks against the blockade runners route the CSA fort helped protect, blockade runners coming back home. That eventually Jefferson Davis realized that a lot of the troops were not necessary for them to be scattered out throughout the kid, but that’s not the main point of my argument. Also, as for the cotton embargo, some of this was done by the states authority. There are examples where it would’ve been a better idea for the south to grow more food rather than cotton, but this also has to put in the factors for transportation. As the north had a large amount of control, all the rivers throughout the war. One interesting fact is that the battle of fort Donelson, the confederate artillery, which was shooting cannonballs, were surprised that it did quite a big deal of damage against the ironclads when they were close up. It took a long time for a lot of them to have metal ships as most were made from wood. To end my post briefly it is true that the South had armament issues but I think the difference would be if their cannons were the equivalent to the north such as the battles, New Orleans, Fort Sumter, Fort, Henry, and fort Donelson, and other engagements in the lower sea bed. 1.) Firstly, in a discussion in the 'Hard AH' forums of Before and After 1900, there is less scope to play umpire on what a thread or sub-discussion within a thread is or isn't about. You elected to answer yesterday with a post on 'Well, the South would have to build up its fleet for the CSA to have immigration ships which in 1861, and perhaps 1862 could work depending on altered conditions. Indian and Egyptian cotton is inferior to southern cotton the south could actually produce greater quantities it’s just transportation patients were the issue. A list of who would’ve been good diplomatic, candidates is of the following Judah, Benjamin to France, Francis Wilkinson Pickens to Russia, Richard Kidder Meade to Brazil, and maybe William PreMaybeto Spain as he was the us diplomat in 1861. One alternative history work, James Chestnut could be a diplomat from the south of Spain. James Williams probably should remain in the ottoman empire as a confederate diplomat. I name all these diplomats because they previously had experience as US diplomats, and they seem to of been competent at their job.' The first part is an answer. The second paragraph is a completely separate and unconnected matter that also just rattles off names and doesn't provide any point or context to them. No number of diplomats will influence how the CSA was viewed by the Great Powers. If you are going to try and tack back to leadership, then there needs to be a point to it. 2.) As a king, it was an emperor with no clothes, cotton or otherwise. 3.) Which historians? What are their arguments? How is that relevant to this discussion? 4.) Indeed, the Confederate privateers were a minor and ephemeral factor with good reason. 5.) That reason being that the Union blockade rapidly expanded in extent and strength, effectively strangling Southern commerce and exports. 6.) I believe you mean Enfield rifled muskets; individual small arms, whatever their origin, weren't of importance to the overall war. 7.) However, they did not and it fell in April 1862, or one year after the outbreak of war. If you wish to how it could have been held for longer and what the consequences might be, then we might be getting toward some interesting ground for discussion. 8.) Apart from the clumsy expression, this takes a potential action of great import and handwaves it for the purpose of subsequent developments, rather than pausing and explaining why this would happen differently. 9.) The CS Navy didn't dwarf that of the Union, nor was it ever in any circumstances to contemplate a counter blockade or even a regionalised defence. 10.) What does this even mean? 11.) This paragraph doesn't make sense, nor does it have a recognisable internal structure. 12.) I take it that Brennan = Britain. France, like other European states, didn't simply go without, but also bought cotton from the Near East and East Indies. No industries starved due to the Union Blockade, apart from those of the rebels. 13.) Setting aside the clumsy expression, no, it would not achieve this end. Assertion isn't argument; argument requires actual contentions, expansion and proof. 14.) Largely irrelevant, aside from being the basis of the Alabama Claims. The number of warships built was very, very small. 15.) This sentence doesn't make sense. 16.) They did not have the ships to escort immigration vessels. This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of naval operations in this era. 17.) Once again, this is clumsily expressed, but even beyond that, the main point is irrelevant. Coastal fortifications did not defend or aid blockade runners, nor would we be dealing with blockade runners here. In the immediately prior point, you are talking about warships undertaking close escort of immigrant ships then suddenly shift to blockade runners. 18.) This paragraph is irrelevant to anything that was being discussed before this point. 19.) Armament issues haven't come up to this point whatsoever, so slipping in a brief mention as a conclusion is unrelated to what has gone before. Even if it did, it would still be irrelevant due to the numbers of Union ships that could be and were produced. The North had far superior artillery foundry capacity than the Rebels.
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Post by American hist on Dec 20, 2023 15:54:18 GMT
The list of better diplomats does not relate to the blockade as this discussion is about superior confederate leadership. King cotton is still a monarch it has its limits. Many historians have argued if the CSA could win its independence it should have been done in the early years of the war such as 62 some are 63 and even a few argue that it could have been done in 1861. In 1861, that same year Confederate privateers made fortunes in privateering, but by the end of 1861 it was no longer a relatively safe (job in comparison to civil War occupations during 1861. ) As for blockade running the north started out 42 at active ships , which only three ships were meant for blockading . The Union navy eed had to cover from the Gulf of Mexico to Virginia which add first was a daunting task as Confederates called it a paper as its effectiveness, and the early part of the war was of that name. Crates full of Lee enfields, and other weapons, including rations from England were sent to the Confederate military from Southern cash crop exports . New Orleans was one the most important confederate blockade ports which confederate could have had superior defenses, preventing a comparative quick and relatively easy capture. However, different circumstances I start with the confederates, not attacking Fort Sumter which already , provide a different political climate. Well, it is true the Confederate Navy dwarfed the Union as it began with no navy the Confederates maybe it’s not have had to blockade other people's coasts it nearly had to protect its main shipping lanes or blockade-running ports. Fort Sumter can equal New York City's separation. The CSA navy was granted limited resources ,but it was also do overemphasizing the needs of the army. Malory was placed as secretary of the navy because he was of the very few southerners, who were really qualified or had interest in the position. This is one example of how it displays at the south and not have a maritime tradition like New England had. A quick or Quicker southern victory war is important that it could make sure that southern cotton will remain king. Well, Brennan had colonies to produce cotton in France did not have cotton production colonies at this time. A superior confederate diplomacy agenda with superior diplomats, (rather then what the south had historically) play a key role in providing ships or supplies for the southern war effort. The CSS Alabama is one example of a confederate ship produced in the British ports www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/confederate-commerce-raiders-and-privateers.htmlNo doubt, a immigration shipping to be slow release in comparison with a blockade Runner I think. However, that is the point of having their ships to escort the vessel. Early on Jefferson to policy in 1861 and part of 1862 he wasted a lot of Manpower by scattering forces out on the costal fort Guaring places where invasion would never come. I think the south could have spent more resources to protect blockade runners with more fortifications and smaller craft at least at some point. Fort Pulaski which ended in a Northern victory not only gave the north a place to stage attacks against the blockade runners route the CSA fort helped protect, blockade runners coming back home. That eventually Jefferson Davis realized that a lot of the troops were not necessary for them to be scattered out throughout the kid, but that’s not the main point of my argument. Also, as for the cotton embargo, some of this was done by the states authority. There are examples where it would’ve been a better idea for the south to grow more food rather than cotton, but this also has to put in the factors for transportation. As the north had a large amount of control, all the rivers throughout the war. One interesting fact is that the battle of fort Donelson, the confederate artillery, which was shooting cannonballs, were surprised that it did quite a big deal of damage against the ironclads when they were close up. It took a long time for a lot of them to have metal ships as most were made from wood. To end my post briefly it is true that the South had armament issues but I think the difference would be if their cannons were the equivalent to the north such as the battles, New Orleans, Fort Sumter, Fort, Henry, and fort Donelson, and other engagements in the lower sea bed. 1.) Firstly, in a discussion in the 'Hard AH' forums of Before and After 1900, there is less scope to play umpire on what a thread or sub-discussion within a thread is or isn't about. You elected to answer yesterday with a post on 'Well, the South would have to build up its fleet for the CSA to have immigration ships which in 1861, and perhaps 1862 could work depending on altered conditions. Indian and Egyptian cotton is inferior to southern cotton the south could actually produce greater quantities it’s just transportation patients were the issue. A list of who would’ve been good diplomatic, candidates is of the following Judah, Benjamin to France, Francis Wilkinson Pickens to Russia, Richard Kidder Meade to Brazil, and maybe William PreMaybeto Spain as he was the us diplomat in 1861. One alternative history work, James Chestnut could be a diplomat from the south of Spain. James Williams probably should remain in the ottoman empire as a confederate diplomat. I name all these diplomats because they previously had experience as US diplomats, and they seem to of been competent at their job.' The first part is an answer. The second paragraph is a completely separate and unconnected matter that also just rattles off names and doesn't provide any point or context to them. No number of diplomats will influence how the CSA was viewed by the Great Powers. If you are going to try and tack back to leadership, then there needs to be a point to it. 2.) As a king, it was an emperor with no clothes, cotton or otherwise. 3.) Which historians? What are their arguments? How is that relevant to this discussion? 4.) Indeed, the Confederate privateers were a minor and ephemeral factor with good reason. 5.) That reason being that the Union blockade rapidly expanded in extent and strength, effectively strangling Southern commerce and exports. 6.) I believe you mean Enfield rifled muskets; individual small arms, whatever their origin, weren't of importance to the overall war. 7.) However, they did not and it fell in April 1862, or one year after the outbreak of war. If you wish to how it could have been held for longer and what the consequences might be, then we might be getting toward some interesting ground for discussion. 8.) Apart from the clumsy expression, this takes a potential action of great import and handwaves it for the purpose of subsequent developments, rather than pausing and explaining why this would happen differently. 9.) The CS Navy didn't dwarf that of the Union, nor was it ever in any circumstances to contemplate a counter blockade or even a regionalised defence. 10.) What does this even mean? 11.) This paragraph doesn't make sense, nor does it have a recognisable internal structure. 12.) I take it that Brennan = Britain. France, like other European states, didn't simply go without, but also bought cotton from the Near East and East Indies. No industries starved due to the Union Blockade, apart from those of the rebels. 13.) Setting aside the clumsy expression, no, it would not achieve this end. Assertion isn't argument; argument requires actual contentions, expansion and proof. 14.) Largely irrelevant, aside from being the basis of the Alabama Claims. The number of warships built was very, very small. 15.) This sentence doesn't make sense. 16.) They did not have the ships to escort immigration vessels. This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of naval operations in this era. 17.) Once again, this is clumsily expressed, but even beyond that, the main point is irrelevant. Coastal fortifications did not defend or aid blockade runners, nor would we be dealing with blockade runners here. In the immediately prior point, you are talking about warships undertaking close escort of immigrant ships then suddenly shift to blockade runners. 18.) This paragraph is irrelevant to anything that was being discussed before this point. 19.) Armament issues haven't come up to this point whatsoever, so slipping in a brief mention as a conclusion is unrelated to what has gone before. Even if it did, it would still be irrelevant due to the numbers of Union ships that could be and were produced. The North had far superior artillery foundry capacity than the Rebels. The CSA Navy was small in comparison to the North. As for small arms, the main weapon of the CSA rifle was indeed the Lee Enfield. Grant soldiers during the Vicksburg campaign even noted that the Lee Enfield was a better weapon in comparison to the Springfield rifle these Union troops had This was one of the British imports the CSA had included the novel Les Miserables. The issue of armament meant the early phase of the war was when there were more exceptions to the Confederates, being better armed. This was due to the confederacy seizing the arsenals. Now artillery seems to not be one of those examples, but the Union also had smooth, bore cannons, in the field but think the difference would’ve been had there been more sufficient supplies given to the confederacy. This discussion is about better Confederate leadership, which could have had diplomats that would have served the South better and would have indirectly affected the blockade. However, This is a discussion above all else about the CSA leadership and policies. Better harbor defenses does play a factor , because better cannons do much better against naval vessels particularly had they been used at Fort Jackson, fort Philip that protected New Orleans. There are several examples had the Confederates had rifled artillery rather than smooth-bore cannons it would’ve made a significant difference against the Union ships. As for an immigration it is true,It did not occur in reality. immigration to a different country in wartime, usually isn’t a good idea. If there was a period where the south was not at war with the North, this could happen. Most of the Confederate blockade runners were not escorted by the Confederacy, but special allowances should be given to this immigration ship. Think how many war naval ships could’ve served the confederacy had they been purchased under better diplomacy. It’s ironic how the CSA Stonewall Jackson was a ship built too late in the war to see action think how many more would’ve been built when the Confederacy was actually winning. If the South had better leaders then economic issues to provide for war would be different I do not see a misunderstanding for sending ships that escort a immigration vessel. However, I am open to more knowledge to be presented. civilwartalk.com/threads/how-successful-were-rebel-privateers-and-commerce-raiders.145631/page-12There was a time during the Civil War, where the union navy had to send their ships to go after the commerce raiders.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 20, 2023 16:17:00 GMT
We are moving from the thread OP, so lets get back on track.
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Post by American hist on Jan 2, 2024 21:52:08 GMT
A interesting idea would be if the Confederate leadership had some one who had state right extremist views as sometimes stereotyped on media acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:VA6C2:b25d4531-949b-482a-aee6-35856ce01dfbA terrible decision would be if the leaders decided that all states would be left to defend fthemselves under their own resources. The vice president of the confederacy Alexander, Stephen show Betterness and hatred towards Jefferson Davises plans of centralism. It would be interesting if someone who cared more about state rights than actually winning their independence was in charge. This concept would not be hard to do how ever some of the secessionist leaders who helped shape the confederate constitution and government were, in fact, more from the conservative cloth, then some of its radical fire eater elements. www.law.ua.edu/pubs/lrarticles/Volume%2060/Issue%203/norman.pdfThe confederacy was known for its support for slavery, so intern, is also effected its military strategy academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4898&context=gc_etds
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 3, 2024 3:45:05 GMT
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Post by American hist on Jan 3, 2024 4:33:03 GMT
Correct so I chose a different article also, I edited the previous post about the generals..
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