miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Sept 15, 2022 16:18:40 GMT
As for Howell Cobb and Andersonville, those war crimes charges do not mean he couldn't have made a good president. The confederacy was always short of resources, including food, so if they had difficulty feeding CSA troops, then think how difficult it would be feeding POWS. There Were many Prison camps In the North for Confederacy's soldiers, And the Rebels did starve to Death despite There could’ve been a Definite possibility. Of the people, they are Being adequately fed. If anyone had been charged with war crimes, it would have been the north, but it's the victories who write the history books, of course and trust others with war crimes. 1. See Maps. Let me explain what you see. The site is a BOWL shaped terrain feature that in 1864 was a disease infested part of a larger swamp with one road and what I believe the locals called a "crick" running through a crude palisade enclosure with a couple of gates. It was about 16 acres (0.025 sq. mile.) and described as a "pig pen" for 18,000+ human beings. Want to compare the worst Union POW camp? That is Elmira; New York.2,500 Confederate rebels froze or starved or died from pneumonia or cholera or dysentery. None of them were starved to death I know it was an atrocity, but those men had cover over their heads and could have organized to better their conditions through cooperation. Instead, they turned on each other like ravenous animals and compounded the problems Eastman encountered in setting the place up. Hoffman, who succeeded him, called it a nightmare, but he did his best with what he had. Now in addition to the perplexities of infrastructure (drainage and plumbing which was worked upon) Hoffman did make things harder on himself by the principle of "retaliation" which stated in General Orders 100 that if the enemy was starving Union PoWs to death and at Andersonville they were; then Confederates should be short rationed. I think that was a war crime. However, I do not doubt that Cobb intended from the start to create a murder camp. Andersonville could be nothing else, the way it was designed. No other Confederate prison camp comes close to this level of atrocity. How was Stonewall Jackson competent? Compared to A. P. Hill or James Longstreet? A good deal of revisionism needs to be still done on that "gentleman". Do you mean Patrick Cleburne by chance? He was the closest thing to a competent corps commander in the Army of Tennessee that the Confederates had. Also; Josiah Gorgas? How much of his ordnance work was actually that of George Washington Rains? As I recollect, Gorgas was contentious and incompetent in his taskings. It was Rains who smoothed over the political firestorms and made things like the Augusta Powder Works possible. Never trust a drunk to drive anything.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 15, 2022 16:48:02 GMT
1. Howell Cobb should have been punished for his war-crimes, chief of which was Andersonville. 2. Robert Toombs was a drunk and mentally unstable. 3. Jefferson Davis ... well read the Jefferson Davis thread. Short version was he thought he was a genius, while those who knew him regarded him as a poltroon. 4. Alexander Stephens was so anti-democratic that even Jeff Davis thought he was a dangerous lunatic. 5. Robert Mercer Taliaferro Hunter (Not the Grateful Dead guy, M.), aside from pointing out Jefferson Davis' obvious shortcomings as a politician and a human being, was a gladhander who was of no merit of his own as to his personal ability to lead, follow or get out of the way. 6. Henry A. Wise was not wise, competent or truthful. Best phrase that describes him is; "Looks good until you get a good smell of him." If this batch of losers is the selection pool, since I am Union Forever, then my pick is Robert Toombs, followed by Jefferson Davis. The rest of them just might luck up to drag the war out until 1866. Or Lincoln could listen to Scott and NOT appoint McClellan and waste two years. Lets keep the thread on track with the subject which is who could be the best Alternative confederate leader.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Sept 15, 2022 18:45:59 GMT
Got to agree "Joe Johnston and Joe Wheeler were their best generals." I also think Grant and Sherman were an excellent combo but I always pay the Devil his due. IMO, Mac forged the weapon those two used to win the war. I also think Little Mac truly loved his troops and knew, after seeing the blood bath in the Crimea, that the defense was far superior to the Offense and hIS AOP would suffer terrible losses in it's offensive Ops. He was unwilling to murder those kids wholesale. The opinion of an E-8 who lacks the strategic knowledge that is way beyond my pay grade.
If we look at the Confederacy as a political problem, then the idea is to convince the Confederate political leadership to give up and cease their rebellion. I realize that "Little Mac" saw Balaklava and concluded that at least for the moment, the defense held the upper hand. But how was the Union to compel the rebels to lay down their arms? Fort up and dare the Confederates to invade? You get Antietam and Gettysburg because Lee was a ninny, but you get no decision or at best you get much prolonged warfare and a peace of exhaustion and an armed truce that lasts decades (Think of Korea.). Let me quote something...Even if Meade had wrecked the Army of the Potomac in the doing, he would have destroyed the Army of Northern Virginia and crushed the Confederacy's chief tool of resistance and existence. That is two years of added wasteful war and about 390,000 American dead and 780,000 maimed Americans saved from happening; if Meade had only spent 30,000 men there where Lee was trapped and could not escape him or the Army of the Potomac. This is what Lincoln kept trying to get his eastern generals to see. Get it done, NOW. Of course; it will be horrendous, but attacking always is. The Union had to attack to impose its political will on the slavocrats. That is Clauswitz. War is politics, etc. Judah P. Benjamin wanted to play defense and drag things out for the Confederacy. So did McClellan and other Union generals, because they were not heartless "butchers", except that if you play the Confederates' game, you pile up mountains of American dead and achieve nothing but stare into a future with more mountains of American dead. This is why Lincoln was slowly going insane. McClellan, Pope, Burnside, Hooker and now Meade did not get it. When Grant popped up as tall nail, Lincoln found his hammer and said; "I can't spare this man. He fights." What Lincoln meant was that here was his first general who would go for the throat and hang on until the Confederacy bled out. The sad thing is that Lincoln had to wait almost three years until the west was settled enough that he could bring Grant east to chew on Lee. It even goes back to this Confederate "luck" thing. With the combined nincompoopery of Lee and Jackson at Chancellorsville, "if only" Hooker had hung on for 24 hours and steadied up, it would have been Lee beaten so badly that "On to Richmond" next; was not only possible, but certain as the follow up. Remember what Hooker said after that debacle? "I just lost confidence in Joe Hooker." The Army of the Potomac was not beaten. Hooker was, because he did not want to spend more lives to attain what could be attained in a battle of straight up attrition. Sometimes you have to make that calculation and grit your teeth and spend lives now to save more lives later. You cannot know except in hindsight if that is the right call. But some men can do it blindly, like Spruance spending his navy aviators at Midway to get that fourth flattop and those two cruisers, did. He made that kind of call and at the time he was called a callous murderer. But in the end; he was proved correct. =================================================================================== That is my longwinded way to curse McClellan. He lacked the quality of moral courage that a general who fights for a democracy needs. You have to do what it takes to end a war as quickly as you can, because the longer a war ensues, the more ruin it entails for ALL of its participants. And you want to stop that from happening as a good leader.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 15, 2022 20:36:43 GMT
Got to agree "Joe Johnston and Joe Wheeler were their best generals." I also think Grant and Sherman were an excellent combo but I always pay the Devil his due. IMO, Mac forged the weapon those two used to win the war. I also think Little Mac truly loved his troops and knew, after seeing the blood bath in the Crimea, that the defense was far superior to the Offense and hIS AOP would suffer terrible losses in it's offensive Ops. He was unwilling to murder those kids wholesale. The opinion of an E-8 who lacks the strategic knowledge that is way beyond my pay grade.
If we look at the Confederacy as a political problem, then the idea is to convince the Confederate political leadership to give up and cease their rebellion. I realize that "Little Mac" saw Balaklava and concluded that at least for the moment, the defense held the upper hand. But how was the Union to compel the rebels to lay down their arms? Fort up and dare the Confederates to invade? You get Antietam and Gettysburg because Lee was a ninny, but you get no decision or at best you get much prolonged warfare and a peace of exhaustion and an armed truce that lasts decades (Think of Korea.). Let me quote something...Even if Meade had wrecked the Army of the Potomac in the doing, he would have destroyed the Army of Northern Virginia and crushed the Confederacy's chief tool of resistance and existence. That is two years of added wasteful war and about 390,000 American dead and 780,000 maimed Americans saved from happening; if Meade had only spent 30,000 men there where Lee was trapped and could not escape him or the Army of the Potomac. This is what Lincoln kept trying to get his eastern generals to see. Get it done, NOW. Of course; it will be horrendous, but attacking always is. The Union had to attack to impose its political will on the slavocrats. That is Clauswitz. War is politics, etc. Judah P. Benjamin wanted to play defense and drag things out for the Confederacy. So did McClellan and other Union generals, because they were not heartless "butchers", except that if you play the Confederates' game, you pile up mountains of American dead and achieve nothing but stare into a future with more mountains of American dead. This is why Lincoln was slowly going insane. McClellan, Pope, Burnside, Hooker and now Meade did not get it. When Grant popped up as tall nail, Lincoln found his hammer and said; "I can't spare this man. He fights." What Lincoln meant was that here was his first general who would go for the throat and hang on until the Confederacy bled out. The sad thing is that Lincoln had to wait almost three years until the west was settled enough that he could bring Grant east to chew on Lee. It even goes back to this Confederate "luck" thing. With the combined nincompoopery of Lee and Jackson at Chancellorsville, "if only" Hooker had hung on for 24 hours and steadied up, it would have been Lee beaten so badly that "On to Richmond" next; was not only possible, but certain as the follow up. Remember what Hooker said after that debacle? "I just lost confidence in Joe Hooker." The Army of the Potomac was not beaten. Hooker was, because he did not want to spend more lives to attain what could be attained in a battle of straight up attrition. Sometimes you have to make that calculation and grit your teeth and spend lives now to save more lives later. You cannot know except in hindsight if that is the right call. But some men can do it blindly, like Spruance spending his navy aviators at Midway to get that fourth flattop and those two cruisers, did. He made that kind of call and at the time he was called a callous murderer. But in the end; he was proved correct. =================================================================================== That is my longwinded way to curse McClellan. He lacked the quality of moral courage that a general who fights for a democracy needs. You have to do what it takes to end a war as quickly as you can, because the longer a war ensues, the more ruin it entails for ALL of its participants. And you want to stop that from happening as a good leader. Did i not say keep this thread on track, that means back to the basis of the thread. Everybody, i know discussions regarding the Civil War might get heated, but i already got 3 reports from this thread alone, so back to what is the thread OP ore i will close this thread, everybody understands, fine.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Sept 16, 2022 0:01:22 GMT
Aye, Aye sir.
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miletus12
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To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Sept 16, 2022 14:29:37 GMT
Article.Stephen MalloryThank Murphy there were very few like him! He was the BEST they had.How successful was Mallory? a. His raiders destroyed or routed 1/3 of US merchant shipping and disrupted the US whaling fleet. The US merchant marine never recovered from this war. b. The Confederates built or attempted 23 Ironclads. Compare that to the Union's 84. c. Naval mines and asymmetric warfare methods. The CSN sank about 50 Union warships in naval operations. For a man who started with ZERO resources and with nincompoops who hampered him constantly... he was a nightmare to Gideon Wells. Take a look at his bow wake... This was the legacy of Stephen Mallory.The BIRTH of the Imperial Japanese Navy...
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Post by American hist on Sept 19, 2022 13:43:17 GMT
I don’t see why revisionism hast to Come about for General Stonewall Jackson and more revisionism for Robert E Lee. in 1864, Union General rGrants advantages were Supreme and bountiful soldiers and resources while general lee had to go on The defense agianst the invading union army were Robert e lee didn't even have half the resources, nor did he have replacements the union government had during this time. www.warhistoryonline.com/american-civil-war/stonewall-jackson-m.html Stonewall Jackson kept winning battles, but Antietam had been lost before the fight even began because Robert E Lee chose A area that wasn’t suitable area for a battle where he didn’t even have all those troops from the campaign. Stonewall Jackson, it has been conceived by historians that he probably had autism which isn’t a mental problem, to say the least, as some people are made differently in the Image of God. Stonewall Jackson was a brilliant professor, just a horrendous failing teacher at the Virginia military institute. I strongly encourage you to read Beavin Alexander’s book How the South Could Have Won the Civil War: The Fatal Errors That Led to Confederate Defeat. In this book, the military historian observes Stonewall Jackson was universally proclaimed the greatest general in the Confederate army. I might not be an expert at large-scale command . Still, Stonewall Jackson, a lieutenant general, was high enough that I think he probably could take over as General of the Army of northern Virginia. The general forest was an excellent example of some Generals who were remarkably talented per their rank but wouldn’t have done well above his rank, notes historian Gary Galvin Historian William C Davis confirms that it’s been overstated that the South had the better generals. He points out their capabilities and talents, and one of the most particular is general Stonewall Jackson. Well, Stonewall Jackson and Jefferson Davis are two completely different people during the American Civil War noticed how Mcphereson tries to argue that Jefferson Davis did the best that he could. He was probably the most competent compared to the southern choices. However, in his book embattled rebel, in my opinion, he still has preserved the fact that Jefferson Davis was incompetent. alternate-timelines.com/thread/4120/jefferson-davis-confederate-secretary-generalThe South had advantages, but many were not fully exploited, such as confederate soldiers knowing the terrain, and Jefferson Davis's cronyism gravely affected the Southern war effort, particularly Davisis poor selection of generals, The worst being Bragg placed as commander in the west. However, who do you think would have been some of the best pics and the confederate army for high-ranking generals, such as who should’ve been generals placed in the western or trans-Mississippi department? This is about Confederate leadership though it’s mostly about political aspects that we can be, of course, about military generals connectusfund.org/the-union-and-confederacy-advantages-and-disadvantages-list
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Sept 19, 2022 14:57:49 GMT
Article.This much we can say from current scholarship. 1. If you are not a 24 / 7 commander and Jackson was not, then that 1 day in 7 pause in your attention to battle will cause inactivity that a competent general can exploit. Lee was lucky that Antietam fell on a Wednesday and Chancellorsville fell on a Thursday. 2. Chancellorsville was screwed up when Jackson refused to alter his assigned march route. He supposedly knew that ground. He commingled his own units into confusion by not re-assigning proper new routes under his own initiative, blindly following Lee's incompetent staff routing plans. When he had to go riding blundering about a snarled battlefield to straighten this mess he created out, he got himself lost and his own men shot him. Say what you want about Hooker and Meade, but they knew where they were and what was happening. 3. Jackson was incapable of giving clear, concise detailed and intelligible orders. (Frag-ords) nor would he brook initiative at interpretation of his confused or frankly idiotic charge straight at them orders that would allow subordinate initiative. If Jackson pointed a brigade across a corn field and there was a Union line of sharpshooters behind a rail fence on the other side, Jackson expected that brigade to march straight across the corn field and woe betide the brigadier who wanted to use the woods on the left as a cover route to approach aforesaid Federals. (Antietam.). 4. Autism: it can be argued that the symptoms Jackson displayed: --physical clumsiness. --apparent speech and cognitive skills impairment. --lack of empathy. --lack of "common sense". --inflexible mental attitude. --inability to adapt, overcome and improvise to his immediate environment. 5. Inability to sit a horse and know where you are and what you need to do. This is the American Civil War. The number of times that Grant or Sherman or Sheridan had to go galloping about a battlefield to fix things is LEGENDARY. They knew how to ride their steeds, get to a spot in time, look at it from their elevated saddle perch view and fix it instantly. Grant famously being the best horseman and spontaneous tactician of the war: did it at Shiloh, at Spotsylvania and at the Horseshoe or North Anna. Jackson was trying to do this thing at Chancellorsville and was bewildered and lost when he was shot by his own men when he did not countersign their challenge. ===================================================================================================== But in spite of these things his Velley Campaign is still a model of how to befuddle an enemy 3x your own size. Except that if your opposition is split three ways, is out of communication with each other and two of the fools are Banks and McDowell, all you really need is hard marching infantry, interior lines and a good knowledge of the roadnet. I am not of the opinion that it took "genius" to achieve the results. Monomania is more like it.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 19, 2022 15:00:02 GMT
Still not seeing the discussion on who would be a best confederate president which i made clear is what this thread is about.
So lets get back to the OP of this thread, final advice.
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miletus12
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To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Sept 19, 2022 15:24:14 GMT
I don’t see why revisionism hast to come about for Stonewall Jackson If it comes to Jackson as POTCSA, we can assess that he would be inflexible, unimaginative, somewhat stubborn, narrow minded, a good totalitarian. He would be a follower, not a leader. Lee would actually be a more capable POTCSA, from his "civil record" if one could get him to see beyond the state of Virginia and get him away from his almost Japanese all offense all the time fixation on how to win a revolution. To be BLUNT, Lee was politically incredibly astute in shaping narratives and shaping the political landscape to fit his own vision of reality. HE was the architect and founder of the big lie that was The Lost Cause (^^^) and his part within it. As POTCSA, he would have been in a position of authority to use his propaganda and technical people management and disinformation skills in a fashion far more dangerous to the Union than he ever was as a general. Look what damage he did to the Republic with just a rinky-dink university? You want a Confederate president? Try Lee. He would be a tough one to stop.
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Post by American hist on Sept 28, 2022 3:27:26 GMT
Well here’s the thing just because someone is a happy heavy drinker does not actually prohibit someone’s capabilities in a desk. www.historynet.com/ulysses-s-grants-lifelong-struggle-with-alcohol/ Alright I get the point taken I don’t think drunks should be the president however vice president’s were more ceremonial position. I would argue Howell Cobbs would be the best president. Prior to the conflict of the American Civil War he was known for being an honest Christian and while he hated politics he was very good at it. His weakness was food as shown by his weight. He Had administration talent and was known for being a very skilled treasurer and I think he would’ve been the best person who would’ve cleaned up the confederacies bureaucratic mess and would a balance between state rights and proper central authority during war time. I would like to do more biography work on him which I will in due time. As for the charge of war crimes it’s not really relevant and I would like to put a prisoner of war camp somewhere where the enemy couldn’t get them. Also i if the location alone for Andersonville is so hellish then it could make hypothetically some of the Yankees wanna go back home Or it could be there Southern revenge I don’t know. I am not justifying war crimes the Civil War was over 100 years ago and people need to move on particularly in this discussion. I wonder who would’ve been the best diplomats for Spain, Brazil, in many other countries especially if the confederacy decided to try to strive for peace for a little while so they could absorb free trade and the war materials needed until the Civil War starts. Thomas H Reagan had a surplus of funds in the csa mail system but who in the csa would have been the best leader of the postage department and other cabinet positions? Who in your opinion would’ve been the best option if the confederacy decided to have a diplomat for Japan or the far east after or even before the civil war. Well it is likely that Japan cannot be in contact with a confederate states of America but keep in mind how the Confederates not attacked fort Sumter and would’ve waited Southern California would’ve been in confederate hands as the people and its government wanted to secede from the union and join the CSA. If there was a shining document known as the confederate Declaration of Independence who would’ve been the best candidate to Write a document? that attempts two rival Lincoln‘s Gettysburg address. Everyone please no more derailment,cat fights or intentional bias or the great mod Lord Droel will shut this discussion down! since I said Yankees go ahead and call the CSA rebels or Johnny Rebel Even those names are pretty mild I want to have fun with this discussion not fights Who would’ve been in the best position for commissary general, quartermaster General, General chief, five star admiral? I think Joe Johnson would’ve been a good general in chief for his overall strategy, let’s continue please. I think Jefferson Davis well at least be a good candidate for secretary of war but that’s another discussion which please be free to comment on this link alternate-timelines.com/thread/4120/jefferson-davis-confederate-secretary-general
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 28, 2022 3:53:56 GMT
Everyone no more derailment,cat fights or intentional bias or the great mod Lord Drool will shut this discussion down! since I said Yankees go ahead and call the CSA rebels or Johnny Rebel Who would’ve been in the best position for commissary general, quartermaster General, General chief, five star admiral? First, my name is lordroel, secondly, no Backseat Moderating, that is what Administrator (Lordroel) or a moderator (Inspector General) are for.
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Post by American hist on Sept 28, 2022 3:56:17 GMT
My apologies.. I didn’t mean to backseat Moderat
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Post by American hist on Nov 21, 2022 19:19:47 GMT
miletus12, in what ways did the south completely squander their luck during the American civil war, and which would have been better alternatives for Southern leadership? As for Jackson, My books have been lent to a friend; However, the attack began during dinner time, and it got dark before Jackson could finish destroying the army of the Potomac (that was at least the aim). You are a great military analyzer e, but think if the south had compatentn political and strategic leadership, how these battles could have been even more devistating. I have already made it known I really don't like Jefferson Davis, but he proably did do the best he could have done though it's not saying great things about himself as a president. Who I, in your opinion, might have been a better pick? and the 19th century on either side was both racist by our standards. Morality doesn't achieve victory In battles either. so who would have been a good pick for the confederate army of Tennessee or the Tennessee theater based on your opinion? I think the South should have focused on Naval coveys for essential supplies. The offensive-defensive strategy isn't precise, but it could have been used better in the 1862 offensive, but prior, the south should never have invaded Kentucky. The south should never have attacked fort summer; instead made sure Lincoln plays his card while allowing the newspapers aided by the CSA secret service to point out that Lincoln broke the quasi-armistice known as the verbal agreement not to resupply fort. The pro-CSA members could also be brought up that the Lincoln administration had promised that the forces would be vacated out of the fort. The most probable thing had the south chose not to force war upon the north is war would’ve developed because of collecting tariffs that are one instance of the South blundering. I think it has been overstated northern objections to slavery especially prior to the American civil war. The South wisely did purchase weapons and supplies from northern businessman before fort Sumter was attacked. Jefferson Davis foolishly believed that the Northerners were to just back down after the attack , but Robert Toombs knew better of course . If someone would’ve just listened to Robert Toombs they could’ve potentially avoided war at least for the confederacy not to attack the forts. On a side note, I don’t see both sides fully in the right or fully in the wrong, this is supposed to be about leadership.
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Post by American hist on Jan 8, 2023 21:22:21 GMT
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