miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 18, 2022 18:28:56 GMT
I am going off topic for a bit, because the USN has a "colorful" WWII history of chicanery, insanity and outright psychotic madness associated with the service that is almost unbelievably tragic, funny and maddening. One has touched upon it, but one really has not put it into context in this thread. These WWII "madmen" were Spanish American war veterans or TAUGHT by Spanish American War veterans. The galloping insanity rubbed off... So a little digression on what the USN was and IS. Later I will write something about how many American officers went insane or were rendered mentally unfit during this war, but that will have to wait. William Ruftus Shafter is one humdinger of a whack-job. miletus12, I can not speak authoritatively about the sanity of US Army officers of this period but I have read there were still a large % of senior ranks who were Civil War vets. Dementia might have played a part but more likely ,IMO, they were just too damn old for active wartime service and had nervous breakdowns.
I stand on firmer ground about the USN. The USN has always been known for the "Real characters (AKA Maniacs)" it produced, particularly in the "O" ranks. From Mad Jack Percival in 1799, to civil war hero Lt. Cushing, to Rear admiral Dan Gallery of WWII and let us not forget Vice Adm. Tim Giardinato.
I served under more than a "few" real "beauties". "Sundowner" martinets, really wild swings of temperament, lapses of judgement involving situations they had deal with many times before, vindictiveness carried to insane extremes. One who was carried ashore sedated after breaking down AFTER 70+ hours of conning his ship around the fringes a very bad typhoon Rose. Unlike Queeg, there was nothing wrong with his seamanship but his or nerves in the storm. Once he retired to his cabin he started to cry and it took a sedative from our doc to get him to stop temporarily. After that his paranoia was all to evident and became worse every day. He still made Rear admiral.
And then there was Captain USN John T. Stensrud III who stands out particularly clearly. 18 months aboard his "Mad House" of a DLG/CG matured/aged this mid 20's 2nd class RD, way beyond my years. He was an absolute nut job who managed to totally terrorize his wardroom by persecuting a series of his officers and made the life of the enlisted crew a living hell because we never knew which "Stensrud" the martinet or the easy going skipper would be calling the shots this day. The only people he actually had liked were the Chiefs. They could do nothing wrong as far as he was concerned. While at sea, he actually spent much of his very limited free time in the Goat locker playing high stakes poker, drinking banned booze and generally just enjoying the comradeship of the Chiefs mess. Those Chiefs were very grateful and loyal to him. If any of his actions had come to the notice of the brass his career would have been over. The Chiefs made sure it didn't.
Long service, great responsibility and the hardships of the sea really do wear on a man (just look at the USN divorce rates) and those with relatively minor mental problems were, and probably still are, greatly stressed, which greatly enhances those flaws. It was, and probably still is a saying in the Nav, that "Sanity was NOT a requirement for promotion and in no way hampered a successful career in the USN ". You better "Fn" believe it.
If you want to read a very entertaining but quite realistic example of this I highly Recommend The Great Herman Wouk's "The Caine Mutiny". Wouk knew of what he wrote.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?
Following the attack on Pearl Harbor, Wouk joined the U.S. Naval Reserve in 1942 and served in the Pacific Theater during World War II, an experience he later characterized as educational: "I learned about machinery, I learned how men behaved under pressure, and I learned about Americans." Wouk served as an officer aboard two destroyer minesweepers (DMS), the USS Zane and USS Southard, becoming executive officer of the latter while holding the rank of lieutenant. He participated in around six invasions and won a number of battle stars. Wouk was in the New Georgia Campaign, the Gilbert and Marshall Islands campaign, the Mariana and Palau Islands campaign, and the Battle of Okinawa.
1. The suicide rate among US submarine captains in peacetime service is astounding, oscssw. The last time I checked, it was about 35%. It is not publicized. To be honest, I do not know how any human being can measure up to what the USN expects of our ship captains. To suggest that the "characters" are characters at least in that specific example is to suggest that in order to handle the mental and physical stress, that a certain amount of assertive self-reflection, supreme confidence and almost godlike hubris is actually part of the position requirement. It is sort of like being president of the United States. One is placed in command and is then one is expected to command. Honest mistakes are forgiven, arrogance is forgiven, mental instability is expected, hubris is accepted, and assertiveness is required: but hesitancy, indecisiveness and cowardice of the moral and physical kind is an instant death sentence, metaphorically speaking. We, as Americans, cannot tolerate failure in command of that nature. 2. When I get into historical discussions of why I have such a low opinion of "Betty" Stark, or William Leahy, or William Pye,^1 and am yet willing to forgive characters like Robert Ghormley, and even forgive William Halsey^2 for all the sailors he foolishly killed, it is because Harold Stark was a moral coward who would not fight for his navy against Churchill's crowd, (Especially that prevaricator, Dudley Pound who was constantly lying to the USN.), the way King did, or Leahy was a mere "yes man" who rubberstamped foolish British ideas^3. 3. You are aware of Captain Howard Bode of the USS Chicago? Famously he committed suicide when he was about to be court martialed for dereliction or maybe cowardice in the face of the enemy. He, historically, took the blame for the Savo Island screwup that properly belonged to Richmond Kelly Turner. That "gentlemen", Turner, was a character, who never should have been allowed to command a rowboat. Fine as a staff officer is one thing, (Sort of like Hiram Rickover, great administrator, but could not command a minesweeper.), but what a shambles he made of the Guadalcanal Landings. He, Turner, lacked moral character. He refused to take the moral responsibility for his ill-considered dispositions prior to that battle, with his refusal to subordinate to Frank Jack Fletcher our finest proven battle leader at that stage of the war^4; or pay attention to the Marines who wanted him to quit screwing around with the combat unloading at Linga point. He famously even got into it and tried to pin Savo Island on Admiral Crutchley, the British hero of Narvik, who was his immediate deputy for the Watchtower operation. I mention this series of Turner incidents, because William Sampson will pull this same exact manure fest on Commodore Winfield Schley, that Turner pulls on Bode; that leaves him, Schley, holding the bag for the monumental almost disaster that is the Battle of Bahia de Santiago de Cuba. Thankfully, Schley was neither a coward like Bode, nor insane like Shafter was and shortly later Sampson *(Same day.), went. Schley won his fight, despite a few bad mistakes he will make. He was given a bum rap, Schley was. ^1. Stark and Leahy during their stints at the Bureau of Ordnance mismanaged the torpedo testing programs. Stark as CNO actually was the one who created the disastrous Plan Dog Memo, that redistributed the USN just prior to Pearl Harbor disaster, refused to stand up to FDR and actually encouraged the Pacific Fleet's forward deployment right into Japanese Kido Butai sortie radius, when other admirals, (Richardson, Hart and King) advised against it for logistics and force exposure to surprise attack reasons. Pye lost his nerve during the Wake Island operation and was one of the ones responsible for mismanaging the Pearl Harbor salvage, post attack. But what especially irritates me about Stark especially is that HE was the one who swallowed the Pound lies about the Battle of the Atlantic tonnage sinking numbers and he also was the one who frittered away the Atlantic Fleet escort forces and refused to demand port blackouts. The British always blame King for Stark's derelictions. Partially, I attribute this to the fact, that after Roosevelt fired the man as CNO, he sent that no good politician in uniform to the UK to a no meaning at all diplomatic glad-hander job to "administer" USN forces in the UK and Europe. That put "Betty" on the cocktail circuit, where he was all too happy to tell his British hosts that "Drumbeat" was King's fault, as was the ABDA mess and the disasters in the Mediterranean and Indian Oceans: whereas the reality was that Ernest King was trying to put out British naval fires in the Indian Ocean, fix the mess Stark left him off the US East Coast because of Stark's misallocation of destroyers, get Roosevelt on board with Plan Charlie and scrap Dog, (Scrap ABDA) and stop the Japanese (By returning to Plan Orange.). King took the blame, stoically, and is blamed down to the present for Stark's mistakes (and British ones), because King was "uniquely suited" as a "womanizer, drunk and card cheat" to be so pegged for Pound's, Phillips, Somerville's and yes, Roosevelt's and Churchill's naval misjudgments as well as Stark's and Leahy's past incompetence. I literally have no words to describe how lucky the United States was to find King. It was to FDR's credit that he picked him after FDR fired Stark. ^2. The French Vichyites in New Caledonia and rotten teeth explain Robert Ghormley's failure at Noumea. Famously Nimitz could have roasted Ghormley alive for the mess he made of Watchtower, but Nimitz had a spy on Ghormley's staff (Ghormley's doctor.), who fed Chester the straight dope on what was really going on with that operation, with Turner and Fletcher and the marines and the French and how Ghormley was going insane from pain and constant harassment from all quarters. When the "Bull" went forward to do an eyes-on inspection, he already had pocket orders for Ghormley's medical relief. it was a case of a "gentle" man being thrust into a situation that called for a hardcase. Halsey was an exuberant hardcase. The switch was made and Nimitz properly did not ruin Ghormley. Halsey will go on to make MANY mistakes, (About a dozen of them if you count disasters like Santa Cruz, Rennell Islands, Tassafaronga, especially First Guadalcanal where he put the wrong admiral in command, etc., and the typhoons and Leyte Gulf.), but one can forgive him, because despite his mistakes, he pushed the issue and he kept winning in spite of his massive blunders. ^3 Leahy was FDR's yes-man and minder and swing vote on the JCS during WWII. Marshall and King were two blow torches aimed at each other. HAP Arnold was a me-too weathervane who tilted whichever way Leahy voted. So to get anything past the King Marshall deadlock Leahy would smooze the problem and tie-break as needed. The great crime Leahy created was in 1927 when he began the process of screwing up the USN torpedo modernization program as head of Bu-Ord. For four years he allowed the gnomes of Goat Island to prototype the Mark 13, 14, and 15 fish without proper oversight. By 1931, when he left for sea duty, those idiots at the naval torpedo factory had produced a defective magnetic exploder, which they never weapon proofed, managed to ruin the depth keeper on the Mark 10 and installed that waiting malfunction with their "modification" further on the aforementioned Marks 13, 14, and 15. They replaced a working Bliss Leavitt designed Hertz principle contact exploder with a defective inertia hammer one of their own patented design and REFUSED to function test and manufacture a working electric powered torpedo. (Ralph Christie's fish.), because it would interfere with their own Mark 14 alcohol burner. And they refused to put an anti-circular run device on the submarine launched Mark 14, because the subs did not need a torpedo like that so equipped. They, the submariners, could just dive under the fish if it boomeranged. Eight, of the fifty-two US submarines, lost in WWII, were probably killed by their own circular running torpedoes. And we can probably add about twenty submarines that were betrayed by their bubbling Mark 14s to Japanese destroyers or aircraft, and who knows how many Japanese destroyers and merchantmen survived "clangers" that plonked their hulls because the exploders did not work or the fish swam too deep and passed harmlessly under the keels or how many US submarines died when their magnetic influenced fused torpedoes exploded short or ran wild in the tube. Maybe ten more? That is on Leahy at the start and STARK when he should have ordered function tests, himself, at Bu-Ord from 1034 to 1937. Both of those imbeciles knew the torpedoes were in trouble, because the Goat Island idiots told them, "we have problems, here, we need help".. We cannot blame Larimer, Furlong, or Blandy, because those guys either tried or were fixing these debacles when they were Bu-Ord. In fact King fired Blandy for being too slow and put in Hussey who lit a bonfire at Bu-Ord and roasted the Goat Island bureaucrats alive for their derelictions of duty. ^4 If Halsey is roasting in naval hell for his alibi autobiography chock full of lies, and Samuel Eliot Morison is burning for his lies about Frank Jack Fletcher, then the self promoting and blame ducking Richmond Kelly Turner is two circles beneath them shoved into the ice upside down next to the big horned cloven hoofed fellow. More than any other US naval officer, with the possible exception of Marc Mitscher, one cannot read his official reports and correspondence without firmly licking a salt lick the size of Mount Everest. Almost without exception, Turner either blames someone else or claims he never said or did what we know from multiple sources he actually did and said. The man was a walking lie. ===================================================== To know where the USN was in 1898, I could also go backward to mentally disturbed individuals like Samuel Dupont, David Dixon Porter or clear back to Stephen Decatur or Oliver Hazard Perry, or the prototype maniac, John Paul Jones; but it is quite evident to *me, that "crazy and psychotic" and the United States Navy are not mutually exclusive. M.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,973
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 18, 2022 18:40:47 GMT
miletus12, I can not speak authoritatively about the sanity of US Army officers of this period but I have read there were still a large % of senior ranks who were Civil War vets. Dementia might have played a part but more likely ,IMO, they were just too damn old for active wartime service and had nervous breakdowns.
I stand on firmer ground about the USN. The USN has always been known for the "Real characters (AKA Maniacs)" it produced, particularly in the "O" ranks. From Mad Jack Percival in 1799, to civil war hero Lt. Cushing, to Rear admiral Dan Gallery of WWII and let us not forget Vice Adm. Tim Giardinato.
I served under more than a "few" real "beauties". "Sundowner" martinets, really wild swings of temperament, lapses of judgement involving situations they had deal with many times before, vindictiveness carried to insane extremes. One who was carried ashore sedated after breaking down AFTER 70+ hours of conning his ship around the fringes a very bad typhoon Rose. Unlike Queeg, there was nothing wrong with his seamanship but his or nerves in the storm. Once he retired to his cabin he started to cry and it took a sedative from our doc to get him to stop temporarily. After that his paranoia was all to evident and became worse every day. He still made Rear admiral.
And then there was Captain USN John T. Stensrud III who stands out particularly clearly. 18 months aboard his "Mad House" of a DLG/CG matured/aged this mid 20's 2nd class RD, way beyond my years. He was an absolute nut job who managed to totally terrorize his wardroom by persecuting a series of his officers and made the life of the enlisted crew a living hell because we never knew which "Stensrud" the martinet or the easy going skipper would be calling the shots this day. The only people he actually had liked were the Chiefs. They could do nothing wrong as far as he was concerned. While at sea, he actually spent much of his very limited free time in the Goat locker playing high stakes poker, drinking banned booze and generally just enjoying the comradeship of the Chiefs mess. Those Chiefs were very grateful and loyal to him. If any of his actions had come to the notice of the brass his career would have been over. The Chiefs made sure it didn't.
Long service, great responsibility and the hardships of the sea really do wear on a man (just look at the USN divorce rates) and those with relatively minor mental problems were, and probably still are, greatly stressed, which greatly enhances those flaws. It was, and probably still is a saying in the Nav, that "Sanity was NOT a requirement for promotion and in no way hampered a successful career in the USN ". You better "Fn" believe it.
If you want to read a very entertaining but quite realistic example of this I highly Recommend The Great Herman Wouk's "The Caine Mutiny". Wouk knew of what he wrote.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?
Following the attack on Pearl Harbor, Wouk joined the U.S. Naval Reserve in 1942 and served in the Pacific Theater during World War II, an experience he later characterized as educational: "I learned about machinery, I learned how men behaved under pressure, and I learned about Americans." Wouk served as an officer aboard two destroyer minesweepers (DMS), the USS Zane and USS Southard, becoming executive officer of the latter while holding the rank of lieutenant. He participated in around six invasions and won a number of battle stars. Wouk was in the New Georgia Campaign, the Gilbert and Marshall Islands campaign, the Mariana and Palau Islands campaign, and the Battle of Okinawa.
1. The suicide rate among US submarine captains in peacetime service is astounding, oscssw. The last time I checked, it was about 35%. It is not publicized. To be honest, I do not know how any human being can measure up to what the USN expects of our ship captains. To suggest that the "characters" are characters at least in that specific example is to suggest that in order to handle the mental and physical stress, that a certain amount of assertive self-reflection, supreme confidence and almost godlike hubris is actually part of the position requirement. It is sort of like being president of the United States. One is placed in command and is then one is expected to command. Honest mistakes are forgiven, arrogance is forgiven, mental instability is expected, hubris is accepted, and assertiveness is required: but hesitancy, indecisiveness and cowardice of the moral and physical kind is an instant death sentence, metaphorically speaking. We, as Americans, cannot tolerate failure in command of that nature. 2. When I get into historical discussions of why I have such a low opinion of "Betty" Stark, or William Leahy, or William Pye,^1 and am yet willing to forgive characters like Robert Ghormley, and even forgive William Halsey^2 for all the sailors he foolishly killed, it is because Harold Stark was a moral coward who would not fight for his navy against Churchill's crowd, (Especially that prevaricator, Dudley Pound who was constantly lying to the USN.), the way King did, or Leahy was a mere "yes man" who rubberstamped foolish British ideas^3. 3. You are aware of Captain Howard Bode of the USS Chicago? Famously he committed suicide when he was about to be court martialed for dereliction or maybe cowardice in the face of the enemy. He, historically, took the blame for the Savo Island screwup that properly belonged to Richmond Kelly Turner. That "gentlemen", Turner, was a character, who never should have been allowed to command a rowboat. Fine as a staff officer is one thing, (Sort of like Hiram Rickover, great administrator, but could not command a minesweeper.), but what a shambles he made of the Guadalcanal Landings. He, Turner, lacked moral character. He refused to take the moral responsibility for his ill-considered dispositions prior to that battle, with his refusal to subordinate to Frank Jack Fletcher our finest proven battle leader at that stage of the war^4; or pay attention to the Marines who wanted him to quit screwing around with the combat unloading at Linga point. He famously even got into it and tried to pin Savo Island on Admiral Crutchley, the British hero of Narvik, who was his immediate deputy for the Watchtower operation. I mention this series of Turner incidents, because William Sampson will pull this same exact manure fest on Commodore Winfield Schley, that Turner pulls on Bode; that leaves him, Schley, holding the bag for the monumental almost disaster that is the Battle of Bahia de Santiago de Cuba. Thankfully, Schley was neither a coward like Bode, nor insane like Shafter was and shortly later Sampson *(Same day.), went. Schley won his fight, despite a few bad mistakes he will make. He was given a bum rap, Schley was. ^1. Stark and Leahy during their stints at the Bureau of Ordnance mismanaged the torpedo testing programs. Stark as CNO actually was the one who created the disastrous Plan Dog Memo, that redistributed the USN just prior to Pearl Harbor disaster, refused to stand up to FDR and actually encouraged the Pacific Fleet's forward deployment right into Japanese Kido Butai sortie radius, when other admirals, (Richardson, Hart and King) advised against it for logistics and force exposure to surprise attack reasons. Pye lost his nerve during the Wake Island operation and was one of the ones responsible for mismanaging the Pearl Harbor salvage, post attack. But what especially irritates me about Stark especially is that HE was the one who swallowed the Pound lies about the Battle of the Atlantic tonnage sinking numbers and he also was the one who frittered away the Atlantic Fleet escort forces and refused to demand port blackouts. The British always blame King for Stark's derelictions. Partially, I attribute this to the fact, that after Roosevelt fired the man as CNO, he sent that no good politician in uniform to the UK to a no meaning at all diplomatic glad-hander job to "administer" USN forces in the UK and Europe. That put "Betty" on the cocktail circuit, where he was all too happy to tell his British hosts that "Drumbeat" was King's fault, as was the ABDA mess and the disasters in the Mediterranean and Indian Oceans: whereas the reality was that Ernest King was trying to put out British naval fires in the Indian Ocean, fix the mess Stark left him off the US East Coast because of Stark's misallocation of destroyers, get Roosevelt on board with Plan Charlie and scrap Dog, (Scrap ABDA) and stop the Japanese (By returning to Plan Orange.). King took the blame, stoically, and is blamed down to the present for Stark's mistakes (and British ones), because King was "uniquely suited" as a "womanizer, drunk and card cheat" to be so pegged for Pound's, Phillips, Somerville's and yes, Roosevelt's and Churchill's naval misjudgments as well as Stark's and Leahy's past incompetence. I literally have no words to describe how lucky the United States was to find King. It was to FDR's credit that he picked him after FDR fired Stark. ^2. The French Vichyites in New Caledonia and rotten teeth explain Robert Ghormley's failure at Noumea. Famously Nimitz could have roasted Ghormley alive for the mess he made of Watchtower, but Nimitz had a spy on Ghormley's staff (Ghormley's doctor.), who fed Chester the straight dope on what was really going on with that operation, with Turner and Fletcher and the marines and the French and how Ghormley was going insane from pain and constant harassment from all quarters. When the "Bull" went forward to do an eyes-on inspection, he already had pocket orders for Ghormley's medical relief. it was a case of a "gentle" man being thrust into a situation that called for a hardcase. Halsey was an exuberant hardcase. The switch was made and Nimitz properly did not ruin Ghormley. Halsey will go on to make MANY mistakes, (About a dozen of them if you count disasters like Santa Cruz, Rennell Islands, Tassafaronga, especially First Guadalcanal where he put the wrong admiral in command, etc., and the typhoons and Leyte Gulf.), but one can forgive him, because despite his mistakes, he pushed the issue and he kept winning in spite of his massive blunders. ^3 Leahy was FDR's yes-man and minder and swing vote on the JCS during WWII. Marshall and King were two blow torches aimed at each other. HAP Arnold was a me-too weathervane who tilted whichever way Leahy voted. So to get anything past the King Marshall deadlock Leahy would smooze the problem and tie-break as needed. The great crime Leahy created was in 1927 when he began the process of screwing up the USN torpedo modernization program as head of Bu-Ord. For four years he allowed the gnomes of Goat Island to prototype the Mark 13, 14, and 15 fish without proper oversight. By 1931, when he left for sea duty, those idiots at the naval torpedo factory had produced a defective magnetic exploder, which they never weapon proofed, managed to ruin the depth keeper on the Mark 10 and installed that waiting malfunction with their "modification" further on the aforementioned Marks 13, 14, and 15. They replaced a working Bliss Leavitt designed Hertz principle contact exploder with a defective inertia hammer one of their own patented design and REFUSED to function test and manufacture a working electric powered torpedo. (Ralph Christie's fish.), because it would interfere with their own Mark 14 alcohol burner. And they refused to put an anti-circular run device on the submarine launched Mark 14, because the subs did not need a torpedo like that so equipped. They, the submariners, could just dive under the fish if it boomeranged. Eight, of the fifty-two US submarines, lost in WWII, were probably killed by their own circular running torpedoes. And we can probably add about twenty submarines that were betrayed by their bubbling Mark 14s to Japanese destroyers or aircraft, and who knows how many Japanese destroyers and merchantmen survived "clangers" that plonked their hulls because the exploders did not work or the fish swam too deep and passed harmlessly under the keels or how many US submarines died when their magnetic influenced fused torpedoes exploded short or ran wild in the tube. Maybe ten more? That is on Leahy at the start and STARK when he should have ordered function tests, himself, at Bu-Ord from 1034 to 1937. Both of those imbeciles knew the torpedoes were in trouble, because the Goat Island idiots told them, "we have problems, here, we need help".. We cannot blame Larimer, Furlong, or Blandy, because those guys either tried or were fixing these debacles when they were Bu-Ord. In fact King fired Blandy for being too slow and put in Hussey who lit a bonfire at Bu-Ord and roasted the Goat Island bureaucrats alive for their derelictions of duty. ^4 If Halsey is roasting in naval hell for his alibi autobiography chock full of lies, and Samuel Eliot Morison is burning for his lies about Frank Jack Fletcher, then the self promoting and blame ducking Richmond Kelly Turner is two circles beneath them shoved into the ice upside down next to the big horned cloven hoofed fellow. More than any other US naval officer, with the possible exception of Marc Mitscher, one cannot read his official reports and correspondence without firmly licking a salt lick the size of Mount Everest. Almost without exception, Turner either blames someone else or claims he never said or did what we know from multiple sources he actually did and said. The man was a walking lie. As much i like the discussions, submarines where as far as i know not in active service during the Spanish–American War (1898) in real time, if you want to discuses this ore matter not related to the current Spanish–American War (1898) in real time, i suggest Real time Discussion thread ore a other thread to fulfill the role.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 18, 2022 18:47:27 GMT
1. The suicide rate among US submarine captains in peacetime service is astounding, oscssw. The last time I checked, it was about 35%. It is not publicized. To be honest, I do not know how any human being can measure up to what the USN expects of our ship captains. To suggest that the "characters" are characters at least in that specific example is to suggest that in order to handle the mental and physical stress, that a certain amount of assertive self-reflection, supreme confidence and almost godlike hubris is actually part of the position requirement. It is sort of like being president of the United States. One is placed in command and is then one is expected to command. Honest mistakes are forgiven, arrogance is forgiven, mental instability is expected, hubris is accepted, and assertiveness is required: but hesitancy, indecisiveness and cowardice of the moral and physical kind is an instant death sentence, metaphorically speaking. We, as Americans, cannot tolerate failure in command of that nature. 2. When I get into historical discussions of why I have such a low opinion of "Betty" Stark, or William Leahy, or William Pye,^1 and am yet willing to forgive characters like Robert Ghormley, and even forgive William Halsey^2 for all the sailors he foolishly killed, it is because Harold Stark was a moral coward who would not fight for his navy against Churchill's crowd, (Especially that prevaricator, Dudley Pound who was constantly lying to the USN.), the way King did, or Leahy was a mere "yes man" who rubberstamped foolish British ideas^3. 3. You are aware of Captain Howard Bode of the USS Chicago? Famously he committed suicide when he was about to be court martialed for dereliction or maybe cowardice in the face of the enemy. He, historically, took the blame for the Savo Island screwup that properly belonged to Richmond Kelly Turner. That "gentlemen", Turner, was a character, who never should have been allowed to command a rowboat. Fine as a staff officer is one thing, (Sort of like Hiram Rickover, great administrator, but could not command a minesweeper.), but what a shambles he made of the Guadalcanal Landings. He, Turner, lacked moral character. He refused to take the moral responsibility for his ill-considered dispositions prior to that battle, with his refusal to subordinate to Frank Jack Fletcher our finest proven battle leader at that stage of the war^4; or pay attention to the Marines who wanted him to quit screwing around with the combat unloading at Linga point. He famously even got into it and tried to pin Savo Island on Admiral Crutchley, the British hero of Narvik, who was his immediate deputy for the Watchtower operation. I mention this series of Turner incidents, because William Sampson will pull this same exact manure fest on Commodore Winfield Schley, that Turner pulls on Bode; that leaves him, Schley, holding the bag for the monumental almost disaster that is the Battle of Bahia de Santiago de Cuba. Thankfully, Schley was neither a coward like Bode, nor insane like Shafter was and shortly later Sampson *(Same day.), went. Schley won his fight, despite a few bad mistakes he will make. He was given a bum rap, Schley was. ^1. Stark and Leahy during their stints at the Bureau of Ordnance mismanaged the torpedo testing programs. Stark as CNO actually was the one who created the disastrous Plan Dog Memo, that redistributed the USN just prior to Pearl Harbor disaster, refused to stand up to FDR and actually encouraged the Pacific Fleet's forward deployment right into Japanese Kido Butai sortie radius, when other admirals, (Richardson, Hart and King) advised against it for logistics and force exposure to surprise attack reasons. Pye lost his nerve during the Wake Island operation and was one of the ones responsible for mismanaging the Pearl Harbor salvage, post attack. But what especially irritates me about Stark especially is that HE was the one who swallowed the Pound lies about the Battle of the Atlantic tonnage sinking numbers and he also was the one who frittered away the Atlantic Fleet escort forces and refused to demand port blackouts. The British always blame King for Stark's derelictions. Partially, I attribute this to the fact, that after Roosevelt fired the man as CNO, he sent that no good politician in uniform to the UK to a no meaning at all diplomatic glad-hander job to "administer" USN forces in the UK and Europe. That put "Betty" on the cocktail circuit, where he was all too happy to tell his British hosts that "Drumbeat" was King's fault, as was the ABDA mess and the disasters in the Mediterranean and Indian Oceans: whereas the reality was that Ernest King was trying to put out British naval fires in the Indian Ocean, fix the mess Stark left him off the US East Coast because of Stark's misallocation of destroyers, get Roosevelt on board with Plan Charlie and scrap Dog, (Scrap ABDA) and stop the Japanese (By returning to Plan Orange.). King took the blame, stoically, and is blamed down to the present for Stark's mistakes (and British ones), because King was "uniquely suited" as a "womanizer, drunk and card cheat" to be so pegged for Pound's, Phillips, Somerville's and yes, Roosevelt's and Churchill's naval misjudgments as well as Stark's and Leahy's past incompetence. I literally have no words to describe how lucky the United States was to find King. It was to FDR's credit that he picked him after FDR fired Stark. ^2. The French Vichyites in New Caledonia and rotten teeth explain Robert Ghormley's failure at Noumea. Famously Nimitz could have roasted Ghormley alive for the mess he made of Watchtower, but Nimitz had a spy on Ghormley's staff (Ghormley's doctor.), who fed Chester the straight dope on what was really going on with that operation, with Turner and Fletcher and the marines and the French and how Ghormley was going insane from pain and constant harassment from all quarters. When the "Bull" went forward to do an eyes-on inspection, he already had pocket orders for Ghormley's medical relief. it was a case of a "gentle" man being thrust into a situation that called for a hardcase. Halsey was an exuberant hardcase. The switch was made and Nimitz properly did not ruin Ghormley. Halsey will go on to make MANY mistakes, (About a dozen of them if you count disasters like Santa Cruz, Rennell Islands, Tassafaronga, especially First Guadalcanal where he put the wrong admiral in command, etc., and the typhoons and Leyte Gulf.), but one can forgive him, because despite his mistakes, he pushed the issue and he kept winning in spite of his massive blunders. ^3 Leahy was FDR's yes-man and minder and swing vote on the JCS during WWII. Marshall and King were two blow torches aimed at each other. HAP Arnold was a me-too weathervane who tilted whichever way Leahy voted. So to get anything past the King Marshall deadlock Leahy would smooze the problem and tie-break as needed. The great crime Leahy created was in 1927 when he began the process of screwing up the USN torpedo modernization program as head of Bu-Ord. For four years he allowed the gnomes of Goat Island to prototype the Mark 13, 14, and 15 fish without proper oversight. By 1931, when he left for sea duty, those idiots at the naval torpedo factory had produced a defective magnetic exploder, which they never weapon proofed, managed to ruin the depth keeper on the Mark 10 and installed that waiting malfunction with their "modification" further on the aforementioned Marks 13, 14, and 15. They replaced a working Bliss Leavitt designed Hertz principle contact exploder with a defective inertia hammer one of their own patented design and REFUSED to function test and manufacture a working electric powered torpedo. (Ralph Christie's fish.), because it would interfere with their own Mark 14 alcohol burner. And they refused to put an anti-circular run device on the submarine launched Mark 14, because the subs did not need a torpedo like that so equipped. They, the submariners, could just dive under the fish if it boomeranged. Eight, of the fifty-two US submarines, lost in WWII, were probably killed by their own circular running torpedoes. And we can probably add about twenty submarines that were betrayed by their bubbling Mark 14s to Japanese destroyers or aircraft, and who knows how many Japanese destroyers and merchantmen survived "clangers" that plonked their hulls because the exploders did not work or the fish swam too deep and passed harmlessly under the keels or how many US submarines died when their magnetic influenced fused torpedoes exploded short or ran wild in the tube. Maybe ten more? That is on Leahy at the start and STARK when he should have ordered function tests, himself, at Bu-Ord from 1034 to 1937. Both of those imbeciles knew the torpedoes were in trouble, because the Goat Island idiots told them, "we have problems, here, we need help".. We cannot blame Larimer, Furlong, or Blandy, because those guys either tried or were fixing these debacles when they were Bu-Ord. In fact King fired Blandy for being too slow and put in Hussey who lit a bonfire at Bu-Ord and roasted the Goat Island bureaucrats alive for their derelictions of duty. ^4 If Halsey is roasting in naval hell for his alibi autobiography chock full of lies, and Samuel Eliot Morison is burning for his lies about Frank Jack Fletcher, then the self promoting and blame ducking Richmond Kelly Turner is two circles beneath them shoved into the ice upside down next to the big horned cloven hoofed fellow. More than any other US naval officer, with the possible exception of Marc Mitscher, one cannot read his official reports and correspondence without firmly licking a salt lick the size of Mount Everest. Almost without exception, Turner either blames someone else or claims he never said or did what we know from multiple sources he actually did and said. The man was a walking lie. As much i like the discussions, submarines where as far as i know not in active service during the Spanish–American War (1898) in real time, if you want to discuses this ore matter not related to the current Spanish–American War (1898) in real time, i suggest Real time Discussion thread ore a other thread to fulfill the role. I brought up submarines and the WWII examples because I KNOW that subject matter. I tried to illustrate how the forward look at where the tradition led will reflect backwards to the Schley / Sampson controversy that will be the seeds of the WWII USN. That particular discussion has to wait until the calendar gets to it.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,973
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 18, 2022 18:50:54 GMT
As much i like the discussions, submarines where as far as i know not in active service during the Spanish–American War (1898) in real time, if you want to discuses this ore matter not related to the current Spanish–American War (1898) in real time, i suggest Real time Discussion thread ore a other thread to fulfill the role. I brought up submarines and the WWII examples because I KNOW that subject matter. I tried to illustrate how the forward look at where the tradition led will reflect backwards to the Schley / Sampson controversy that will be the seeds of the WWII USN. That particular discussion has to wait until the calendar gets to it. A okay, but lets us try to keep it as much as possible focus on the events that have happen in this war.
|
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Apr 19, 2022 0:01:20 GMT
I am going off topic for a bit, because the USN has a "colorful" WWII history of chicanery, insanity and outright psychotic madness associated with the service that is almost unbelievably tragic, funny and maddening. One has touched upon it, but one really has not put it into context in this thread. These WWII "madmen" were Spanish American war veterans or TAUGHT by Spanish American War veterans. The galloping insanity rubbed off... So a little digression on what the USN was and IS. 2. When I get into historical discussions of why I have such a low opinion of "Betty" Stark, or William Leahy, or William Pye,^1 and am yet willing to forgive characters like Robert Ghormley, and even forgive William Halsey^2 for all the sailors he foolishly killed, it is because Harold Stark was a moral coward who would not fight for his navy against Churchill's crowd, (Especially that prevaricator, Dudley Pound who was constantly lying to the USN.), the way King did, or Leahy was a mere "yes man" who rubberstamped foolish British ideas^3. 3. You are aware of Captain Howard Bode of the USS Chicago? Famously he committed suicide when he was about to be court martialed for dereliction or maybe cowardice in the face of the enemy. He, historically, took the blame for the Savo Island screwup that properly belonged to Richmond Kelly Turner. That "gentlemen", Turner, was a character, who never should have been allowed to command a rowboat. Fine as a staff officer is one thing, (Sort of like Hiram Rickover, great administrator, but could not command a minesweeper.), but what a shambles he made of the Guadalcanal Landings. He, Turner, lacked moral character. He refused to take the moral responsibility for his ill-considered dispositions prior to that battle, with his refusal to subordinate to Frank Jack Fletcher our finest proven battle leader at that stage of the war^4; or pay attention to the Marines who wanted him to quit screwing around with the combat unloading at Linga point. He famously even got into it and tried to pin Savo Island on Admiral Crutchley, the British hero of Narvik, who was his immediate deputy for the Watchtower operation. I mention this series of Turner incidents, because William Sampson will pull this same exact manure fest on Commodore Winfield Schley, that Turner pulls on Bode; that leaves him, Schley, holding the bag for the monumental almost disaster that is the Battle of Bahia de Santiago de Cuba. Thankfully, Schley was neither a coward like Bode, nor insane like Shafter was and shortly later Sampson *(Same day.), went. Schley won his fight, despite a few bad mistakes he will make. He was given a bum rap, Schley was. ^1. Stark and Leahy during their stints at the Bureau of Ordnance mismanaged the torpedo testing programs. Stark as CNO actually was the one who created the disastrous Plan Dog Memo, that redistributed the USN just prior to Pearl Harbor disaster, refused to stand up to FDR and actually encouraged the Pacific Fleet's forward deployment right into Japanese Kido Butai sortie radius, when other admirals, (Richardson, Hart and King) advised against it for logistics and force exposure to surprise attack reasons. Pye lost his nerve during the Wake Island operation and was one of the ones responsible for mismanaging the Pearl Harbor salvage, post attack. But what especially irritates me about Stark especially is that HE was the one who swallowed the Pound lies about the Battle of the Atlantic tonnage sinking numbers and he also was the one who frittered away the Atlantic Fleet escort forces and refused to demand port blackouts. The British always blame King for Stark's derelictions. Partially, I attribute this to the fact, that after Roosevelt fired the man as CNO, he sent that no good politician in uniform to the UK to a no meaning at all diplomatic glad-hander job to "administer" USN forces in the UK and Europe. That put "Betty" on the cocktail circuit, where he was all too happy to tell his British hosts that "Drumbeat" was King's fault, as was the ABDA mess and the disasters in the Mediterranean and Indian Oceans: whereas the reality was that Ernest King was trying to put out British naval fires in the Indian Ocean, fix the mess Stark left him off the US East Coast because of Stark's misallocation of destroyers, get Roosevelt on board with Plan Charlie and scrap Dog, (Scrap ABDA) and stop the Japanese (By returning to Plan Orange.). King took the blame, stoically, and is blamed down to the present for Stark's mistakes (and British ones), because King was "uniquely suited" as a "womanizer, drunk and card cheat" to be so pegged for Pound's, Phillips, Somerville's and yes, Roosevelt's and Churchill's naval misjudgments as well as Stark's and Leahy's past incompetence. I literally have no words to describe how lucky the United States was to find King. It was to FDR's credit that he picked him after FDR fired Stark. ^2. The French Vichyites in New Caledonia and rotten teeth explain Robert Ghormley's failure at Noumea. Famously Nimitz could have roasted Ghormley alive for the mess he made of Watchtower, but Nimitz had a spy on Ghormley's staff (Ghormley's doctor.), who fed Chester the straight dope on what was really going on with that operation, with Turner and Fletcher and the marines and the French and how Ghormley was going insane from pain and constant harassment from all quarters. When the "Bull" went forward to do an eyes-on inspection, he already had pocket orders for Ghormley's medical relief. it was a case of a "gentle" man being thrust into a situation that called for a hardcase. Halsey was an exuberant hardcase. The switch was made and Nimitz properly did not ruin Ghormley. Halsey will go on to make MANY mistakes, (About a dozen of them if you count disasters like Santa Cruz, Rennell Islands, Tassafaronga, especially First Guadalcanal where he put the wrong admiral in command, etc., and the typhoons and Leyte Gulf.), but one can forgive him, because despite his mistakes, he pushed the issue and he kept winning in spite of his massive blunders. ^3 Leahy was FDR's yes-man and minder and swing vote on the JCS during WWII. Marshall and King were two blow torches aimed at each other. HAP Arnold was a me-too weathervane who tilted whichever way Leahy voted. So to get anything past the King Marshall deadlock Leahy would smooze the problem and tie-break as needed. The great crime Leahy created was in 1927 when he began the process of screwing up the USN torpedo modernization program as head of Bu-Ord. For four years he allowed the gnomes of Goat Island to prototype the Mark 13, 14, and 15 fish without proper oversight. By 1931, when he left for sea duty, those idiots at the naval torpedo factory had produced a defective magnetic exploder, which they never weapon proofed, managed to ruin the depth keeper on the Mark 10 and installed that waiting malfunction with their "modification" further on the aforementioned Marks 13, 14, and 15. They replaced a working Bliss Leavitt designed Hertz principle contact exploder with a defective inertia hammer one of their own patented design and REFUSED to function test and manufacture a working electric powered torpedo. (Ralph Christie's fish.), because it would interfere with their own Mark 14 alcohol burner. And they refused to put an anti-circular run device on the submarine launched Mark 14, because the subs did not need a torpedo like that so equipped. They, the submariners, could just dive under the fish if it boomeranged. Eight, of the fifty-two US submarines, lost in WWII, were probably killed by their own circular running torpedoes. And we can probably add about twenty submarines that were betrayed by their bubbling Mark 14s to Japanese destroyers or aircraft, and who knows how many Japanese destroyers and merchantmen survived "clangers" that plonked their hulls because the exploders did not work or the fish swam too deep and passed harmlessly under the keels or how many US submarines died when their magnetic influenced fused torpedoes exploded short or ran wild in the tube. Maybe ten more? That is on Leahy at the start and STARK when he should have ordered function tests, himself, at Bu-Ord from 1034 to 1937. Both of those imbeciles knew the torpedoes were in trouble, because the Goat Island idiots told them, "we have problems, here, we need help".. We cannot blame Larimer, Furlong, or Blandy, because those guys either tried or were fixing these debacles when they were Bu-Ord. In fact King fired Blandy for being too slow and put in Hussey who lit a bonfire at Bu-Ord and roasted the Goat Island bureaucrats alive for their derelictions of duty. ^4 If Halsey is roasting in naval hell for his alibi autobiography chock full of lies, and Samuel Eliot Morison is burning for his lies about Frank Jack Fletcher, then the self promoting and blame ducking Richmond Kelly Turner is two circles beneath them shoved into the ice upside down next to the big horned cloven hoofed fellow. More than any other US naval officer, with the possible exception of Marc Mitscher, one cannot read his official reports and correspondence without firmly licking a salt lick the size of Mount Everest. Almost without exception, Turner either blames someone else or claims he never said or did what we know from multiple sources he actually did and said. The man was a walking lie. ===================================================== To know where the USN was in 1898, I could also go backward to mentally disturbed individuals like Samuel Dupont, David Dixon Porter or clear back to Stephen Decatur or Oliver Hazard Perry, or the prototype maniac, John Paul Jones; but it is quite evident to *me, that "crazy and psychotic" and the United States Navy are not mutually exclusive. M. Well miletus12, my friend, I absolutely agree with your last sentence. hence why the old navy saying has lasted so long!
As for the rest of this post; I'm just glad it was lil old me that gave you the chance to get that off your chest. I got the feeling you have been itching to get it out for quite wile. I hope it was therapeutic and will allow you some peace of mind. We need you here doing what you do best showing the rest of us what is under the rock.
I would really like to read your opinion of "All Hands Down" by Kenneth Sewell & Jerome Preisler June 2008
It is an expose of the May 1968 loss of USS Scorpion which sank under mysterious circumstances, with a loss of ninety-nine lives. It happened at the height of the Cold War only weeks after the sinking of a Soviet sub near Hawaii.
These two guys drew on recently declassified(2007) US & Soviet intel files. They also conducted hundreds of hours of interviews, many with exclusive sources in the naval and intel Depts. They rove a connection between Scorpion, Pueblo, the Soviet K-129 sinking and navy, a traitor named John Walker.
In January 1968, a US intel ship, USS Pueblo, was seized by Norks. Among other items confiscated were several a valuable cryptographic machines capable of deciphering the navy's top-secret codes. Unknown to the USN, a traitor named John Walker had begun supplying the navy's codes to the KGB. Once the KGB acquired the crypto machines the Soviets were able to read highly classified naval comms.
In March, the Soviet sub K-129 "mysteriously" sank near Hawaii, hundreds of miles from its normal station in the Pacific. Soviet naval leaders mistakenly believed that a US submarine was to blame for the loss, and they planned revenge. A trap was set: several Soviet vessels were gathered in the Atlantic, acting suspiciously. It would be only a matter of time before a US sub was sent to investigate. That sub was the Scorpion. Using the top-secret codes and the deciphering machine, the Soviets could intercept and decode communication between the Navy and Scorpion, the final element in carrying out the planned attack.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,973
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 19, 2022 2:51:39 GMT
April 19th 1898
United States
US Congress by a vote of 311 to 6 in the House and 42 to 35 in the Senate adopted the Joint Resolution for war with Spain which included the Teller Amendment, named after Senator Henry Moore Teller (Colorado) which disclaimed any intention of the US to exercise jurisdiction or control over Cuba except in a pacification role and promised to leave the island as soon as the war was over.
São Vicente, Cape Verde
The Spanish armored cruiser Almirante Oquendo and here sister ship, the armored cruiser Vizcaya now assigned to the Spanish Navy's 1st Squadron which was concentrating at São Vicente in Portugal's Cape Verde Islands under Vice Admiral Pascual Cervera y Topete arrive at São Vicente, its is there noted that Almirante Oquendo needs drydocking because of a badly fouled bottom which slowed her to a maximum speed of 12 to 14 knots (22 to 26 km/h; 14 to 16 mph), her 14 cm (6 in) guns having defective breach mechanisms and has been supplied with defective ammunition.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 19, 2022 7:43:34 GMT
I would really like to read your opinion of "All Hands Down" by Kenneth Sewell & Jerome Preisler June 2008
Admiral David Oliver hypothesis. In Spanish American War terms; the results of events prior to 19 April 1898, which intelligent Spanish diplomacy and good US maintenance could have prevented that war, instead resulted in the USS Maine loss of ship and mission due to negligence, while Enrique Dupuy de Lôme, after he insulted William McKinley in a letter, should have been shot as a traitor by the Madrid government, for utter criminal stupidity; once the American newspapers got hold of that letter. Text translated and from the National Archives... It was so then, and is so now. Stupidity explains more often the how and why, than malice in human generated disasters. M.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 19, 2022 21:26:54 GMT
April 19th 1898 United StatesUS Congress by a vote of 311 to 6 in the House and 42 to 35 in the Senate adopted the Joint Resolution for war with Spain which included the Teller Amendment, named after Senator Henry Moore Teller (Colorado) which disclaimed any intention of the US to exercise jurisdiction or control over Cuba except in a pacification role and promised to leave the island as soon as the war was over. São Vicente, Cape VerdeThe Spanish armored cruiser Almirante Oquendo and here sister ship, the armored cruiser Vizcaya now assigned to the Spanish Navy's 1st Squadron which was concentrating at São Vicente in Portugal's Cape Verde Islands under Vice Admiral Pascual Cervera y Topete arrive at São Vicente, its is there noted that Almirante Oquendo needs drydocking because of a badly fouled bottom which slowed her to a maximum speed of 12 to 14 knots (22 to 26 km/h; 14 to 16 mph), her 14 cm (6 in) guns having defective breach mechanisms and has been supplied with defective ammunition. !. The Teller Amendment was a blatant piece of (racist and imperialist) hypocrisy. The United States was going to reduce "Independent Cuba" to a satrapy like Honduras or Nicaragua. The "banana republic" model was all ready to go, where the local bandits were installed as the "sitting government" and the US businesses that held the debt as creditors or owned the plantation system installed, was going to manage the country as a corporate owned state. The "alleged" Cuban revolutionaries were only too happy to participate in the "Sugar Interests" scheme. Call it a revision of the old "Confederate Filibuster" once promoted by John C. Calhoun. 2. The First Spanish Cruiser squadron en-toto had problems with their Schneider Canet 5.5 inch guns. These were properly Spanish copies of the French 138 mm gun. Model 1893. Whether, French, Japanese or Spanish or RUSSIAN used, these models and variants all had the breech plug jams and bulged out brass case problems previously discussed above in this thread.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,973
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 20, 2022 2:55:59 GMT
April 20th 1898
United States
President William McKinley signs the Joint Resolution for war with Spain and the ultimatum is forwarded to Spain. In accordance with its terms, instructions are immediately sent to General Woodford, United States minister at Madrid, to present to the Spanish Government a formal demand that it should" at once relinquish its authority and government in the island of Cuba, and withdraw its land and naval forces from Cuba and Cuban waters." For a "full and satisfactory response," the American ultimatum continued, the President will wait till noon on April 23rd ; in default of such reply, he will use the power of the nation to carry it into effect.
Spanish Minister to the United States Luís Polo de Bernabé is notified by a messenger from the State Department of the signing of the joint resolution and the instructions that have been send to General Woodford. He at once replied with a request for his passports. " The resolution," he wrote, " is of such a character that my presences in Washington becomes impossible." At seven o'clock-after an interview with the newspaper correspondents, to whom he foretold victory for Spain in the coming struggle he took a train for Canada.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 20, 2022 6:31:36 GMT
What has Admiral Cervera been doing all this time?He has been writing lots and lots of letters and diary entries. His latest series this week is a variant on the constant theme of how unready the Armada is for war. At this moment in time: I must break off because it is only on 21 April 1892 as Richardson Glover, Chief Intelligence Officer, Office of Naval Intelligence notes that Cervera holds his officer's call and his captains, and he will formally petition the Spanish Crown Government and give their final formal professional opinions before the fleet sortie from the Canary Islands to the west and towards Cuba.
|
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Apr 20, 2022 11:24:18 GMT
I think this is a good place to think about the influence of Yellow Journalism and U.S. Diplomacy leading up to the Spanish American war. Both Hearst and Pulitzer were muckrakers of note. It always makes me smile when a crackwh0re reporter "wins" a Pulitzer prize. Make of that what you will.
In Yellow journalism newspaper reporting emphasized sensationalism over facts. During its heyday in the late 19th century it was one of many factors that helped push the USA and Spain into war in Cuba and the Philippines, leading to the acquisition of overseas territory by the US.
Yellow Journalism was/is a sensationalist style employed by the two publishers in a circulation war drove their coverage of world events, especially of Cuba. Cuba had long been a Spanish colony and the revolutionary movement greatly admired in the US. Both newspapers devoted more and more attention to the Cuban struggle for independence, at times accentuating the harshness of Spanish rule or the nobility of the revolutionaries, and occasionally printing rousing stories that proved to be false. This sort of coverage, complete with bold headlines and creative drawings of events, sold a lot of papers for both publishers.
The peak of yellow journalism, in terms of both intensity and influence, came in early 1898, when a U.S. battleship, the Maine, sunk in Havana harbor. On the night of February 15, an explosion tore through the ship’s hull, and the Maine went down. Sober observers and an initial report by the colonial government of Cuba concluded that the explosion had occurred on board, but Hearst and Pulitzer, published rumors of plots to sink the ship. Admiral Hyman Rickover, father of the US Naval nuclear problem and the USS Nautilus, "sundowner" SOB first class wrote a book that agreed with the Spanish. When a U.S. naval investigation later stated that the explosion had come from a mine in the harbor, the proponents of yellow journalism seized upon it and called for war. By early May, the Spanish-American War had begun.
Although yellow journalism helped to create a climate conducive to the outbreak of war and the expansion of U.S. influence overseas, but it did not by itself cause the war. In spite of Hearst’s often quoted statement—“You furnish the pictures, I’ll provide the war!”other factors played a greater role in leading to the outbreak of war. The papers did not create anti-Spanish sentiments out of thin air, nor did the publishers fabricate the events to which the U.S. public and politicians reacted so strongly. Moreover, influential figures such as Theodore Roosevelt led a drive for U.S. overseas expansion that had been gaining strength since the 1880s. Nevertheless, yellow journalism of this period is significant to the history of U.S. foreign relations in that its centrality to the history of the Spanish American War shows that the press had the power to capture the attention of a large readership and to influence public reaction to international events.
Tell me wnat has changed since 1898?
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 20, 2022 14:35:39 GMT
I think this is a good place to think about the influence of Yellow Journalism and U.S. Diplomacy leading up to the Spanish American war. Both Hearst and Pulitzer were muckrakers of note. It always makes me smile when a crackwh0re reporter "wins" a Pulitzer prize. Make of that what you will. This nonsense was not restricted to the United States. The London Times op-ed quoted was not exactly reflective of British foreign policy, which was "neutral", but was indicative of the British "power elite's view of an America at the time. It would hardly sell newspapers or a war to report the true economic and geo-political brawling going on behind the "American push". In fundamental terms, there were three great powers maneuvering for economic position and advantage in 1898, trying to either maintain a position of advantage vis a vis Qing China or attain one. Britain and the United States *(along with Britain's nascent Pacific ally, Japan in 1898) were competing to see who would conquer Hawaii. The Philippine Archipelago was clearly going to break loose of Spain and that plum was going to be a prize for either the British-Japanese, Germans, or the Americans as a gateway into China. Germany had already seized a foothold port in Qing China and their east Asia squadron was in a bump and scrape war with Dewey. You will read a lot of rotten things about a rotten no-good human being named Otto von Diederichs shortly as we progress into this timeline. One will not be reading about the Sugar Interests. This (^^^) was not being reported accurately. If it had been, it would have instantly impelled the progressive Republicans and southern Unreconstructed Dixiecrats who sort of formed a loose political block in support of a war out of power. It must be remarked that the "jingoist coalition" did not originally include the McKinley "Midwest Republican" wing of the republican party. That faction who allied with the Cuban invested Dixiecrats, were the "Northeast Republicans", the Teddy Roosevelt Wing, who were not only looking towards CHINA with stepways across the Pacific Ocean courtesy of a soon to be defunct Spanish Empire and a conquered Kingdom of Hawaii but had bought into "Anglo-Saxonism" or White Man's Burden racist theories that strangely converged them with the same Dixiecrats as to political colonialist imperialist outlook. That a couple of newspaper tycoons, Hearst and Pulitzer, shared this despicable mindset from opposite sets of the false political divide and shaped their propaganda to promote Hearst's (Dixiecrat, liberate Cuba and save our tobacco and sugar investments.) and Pulitzer's (northeast republican drive toward China) convergent interests should not have come as a surprise. It was an open secret to those professionals in the know as Alfred Thayer Mahan remarked in letters to Arent Crowninshield. See previous remarks in this thread that I wrote about the USS Maine. If it had, as unlikely as this possibility seems now, been mined, it could have only been either an accidental malfunction of a Spanish harbor defense mine or a USS Cole type attack instigated by Cuban revolutionaries. I figure a Bustamente chance as 0.1%. Cuban revolutionaries might be 0.01%. See previous remarks. Nothing, as far as the American or British press, specifically, is concerned. Inaccuracy, stupidity, propaganda based on emotion instead of actual factual reports and lying in the service of special interests, who use mendacity and disinformation to promote their narrow speculative and specialist agendas to the contrary of the public interests, remains the order of the day.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Apr 20, 2022 19:34:01 GMT
Further development of the Sugar Interest thesis and the question of Cuba.Hereweith I break the article because I want one to READ McKinley's rather long war message of 8 April 1898. I think Mister Aydt has completely lost the thread and intent of McKinley's message. It is not a "Let's grab Cuba." speech at all. It is weasel worded and lawyerly argument to Congress to NOT DO ANYTHING HASTY. Let us resume with this essay of errors. As can be seen, one must sometimes shovel a ton of manure to produce a few roses. Miletus
|
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Apr 20, 2022 23:36:52 GMT
I think this is a good place to think about the influence of Yellow Journalism and U.S. Diplomacy leading up to the Spanish American war. Both Hearst and Pulitzer were muckrakers of note. It always makes me smile when a crackwh0re reporter "wins" a Pulitzer prize. Make of that what you will. Nothing, as far as the American or British press, specifically, is concerned. Inaccuracy, stupidity, propaganda based on emotion instead of actual factual reports and lying in the service of special interests, who use mendacity and disinformation to promote their narrow speculative and specialist agendas to the contrary of the public interests, remains the order of the day.
Damn well said miletus12 . You nailed it in one very short paragraph.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,973
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 21, 2022 2:51:17 GMT
Day 1 of the Spanish–American War, April 21st 1898
United States
Rear Admiral William T. Sampson is given the authority over all other naval officers in the Caribbean theater, and is ordered to begin a close blockade of northern Cuba. Secretary of the Navy John Davis Long encourages Sampson to order his ships to scour the northern coast of Cuba, seek out Spanish vessels, and attack them while they were still in port. Sampson is also to order his ship captains to destroy shore batteries protecting those ports if he and they believed it would not expose their vessels. The North Atlantic Fleet commander is more than happy to comply. He also asked that his captains be allowed to capture Spanish fishing boats so they could not Supply Havana. Long approves.
Senor du Bose, first secretary of the Spanish legation in the United States, heads to Canada to join Spanish Minister to the United States Luís Polo de Bernabé who departed to Canada the previous day, leaving the affairs of the Spanish Government in the hands of the French ambassador, M. Cambon, and the Austrian minister, Baron Hengelmiiller.
Spain
Spain mobilizes 80,000 army reserves and sends 5,000 regular army soldiers to the Canary Islands.
US Minister in Madrid General Steward L. Woodford before he is able to hand the United States ultimatum over to the Spanish Government, he receives a note from Pio Gullon, Spanish minister for foreign affairs, informing him that diplomatic relations were at an end. Congress, said Senor Gullon, has passed a resolution which "denies the legitimate sovereignty of Spain and threatens immediate armed intervention in Cuba, which is equivalent to a declaration of war." General Woodford at once asked for his passport and after receiving it begins his journey to the French border, leaving the affairs of his legation in the hands of the British ambassador and instructing the American consuls in other Spanish cities to take similar steps.
Cuba
The US Navy begins a blockade of Cuba.
Spanish forces in Santiago de Cuba mine Guantánamo Bay.
Puerto Rico
The Gazette of Puerto Rico (la Gaceta de Puerto Rico) published a decree signaling martial law for the island, suspending all constitutional rights in the preparation for war.
Hong Kong
United States Secretary of the Navy John Davis Long telegraphs Commodore Dewey at Hong Kong, informing him that the US blockade of Cuba has begun and that war is expected at any moment.
Philippines More suspects are arrested by the Spanish authorities: Doroteo Jose; Cecilio Velarde, the parish priest of Quiapo; Felix Roxas; Padre Consunji; and many more.
|
|