stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 29, 2021 14:11:07 GMT
Ah the white ship disaster. I was thinking at 1st that you were suggesting that could be avoided, which would have meant Henry I was replaced by his son William III and the Anarchy would have been avoided. Which might be a path to genyodectes , plan for the crushing of any regional opposition to centralised autocratic rule.
Just to clarify were there two Matilda's? You mention the queen who succeeded - or tried to - Henry but also the Matilda on the white ship, who I would assume died. Checking the wiki page for the incident that does appear to be the case as it refers to Henry having " a second daughter named Matilda". Know some names seem too common in families.  The Anarchy, as the name suggests, was a period of complete lawlessness - a King could declare 'a dictatorship of necessity' to restore order. Matilda or Mathilde is a French name of Germanic origin, which reflects the ancestry of the Norman people. Henry I Beauclerc's mother was Matilda of Flanders, one of his sisters is believed to be called Matilda and his first wife was Edith of Scotland who changed her name to Matilda. Henry had a healthy sexual appetite and is thought to have fathered numerous children with numerous women - no one is sure how many, but my understanding that his entire brood could have made at least a Football team - they didn't have TV or central heating in the 12th century, so I guess they had to do something to entertain themselves and keep warm... It is thought however that the offspring of Henry's union to his first wife, Edith 'Matilda' of Scotland, were the legitimate heirs. He had a son William Adelin, who died when the White Ship sunk and a daughter Adelaide who for some reason it seems changed her name to Matilda upon marrying Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor. Empress Matilda was also known by the name Maude... The Matilda of the White Ship disaster I believe was known as Matilda FitzRoy, Countess of Perche the daughter of Henry I Beauclerc and an unidentified woman making her the half-sister of William Adelin.
Many thanks for clarifying. Far too many Matilda's for me.  |
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Post by halferking on Dec 29, 2021 18:30:31 GMT
The Anarchy, as the name suggests, was a period of complete lawlessness - a King could declare 'a dictatorship of necessity' to restore order. Matilda or Mathilde is a French name of Germanic origin, which reflects the ancestry of the Norman people. Henry I Beauclerc's mother was Matilda of Flanders, one of his sisters is believed to be called Matilda and his first wife was Edith of Scotland who changed her name to Matilda. Henry had a healthy sexual appetite and is thought to have fathered numerous children with numerous women - no one is sure how many, but my understanding that his entire brood could have made at least a Football team - they didn't have TV or central heating in the 12th century, so I guess they had to do something to entertain themselves and keep warm... It is thought however that the offspring of Henry's union to his first wife, Edith 'Matilda' of Scotland, were the legitimate heirs. He had a son William Adelin, who died when the White Ship sunk and a daughter Adelaide who for some reason it seems changed her name to Matilda upon marrying Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor. Empress Matilda was also known by the name Maude... The Matilda of the White Ship disaster I believe was known as Matilda FitzRoy, Countess of Perche the daughter of Henry I Beauclerc and an unidentified woman making her the half-sister of William Adelin.
Many thanks for clarifying. Far too many Matilda's for me. You're welcome. It is a bit overload on the Matilda, but when you like a name, I guess you run with it... |
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genyodectes
Warrant Officer
I'm just a Ceratosaur trying to make his way in Alternate History
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Post by genyodectes on Dec 29, 2021 18:37:59 GMT
Many thanks for clarifying. Far too many Matilda's for me. You're welcome. It is a bit overload on the Matilda, but when you like a name, I guess you run with it...
Stares at France's Kings menacingly |
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Post by halferking on Dec 29, 2021 19:17:50 GMT
Perhaps give Eleanor of Aquitaine a son with Louis VII. That would be interesting. Louis VII was by all accounts a complete bastard towards Eleanor and the lack of a male heir was one reasons Louis had their marriage annulled. Eleanor then goes on to marry Henry II, King of England bringing with her the Duchy of Aquitaine and thus founding the Angevin Empire. If Eleanor has sons to Louis, divorces him and then marries Henry and goes on to have sons with him that would make the future King of France (Philip II in OTL) and the future King of England (Richard I in OTL) half-brothers. In OTL Richard I marries Berengaria of Navarre, but this union did not result in sons so the Throne of England past to John, Richard I younger brother. In the ATL it could be that the King of England is the last of his line in which case the Throne of England may be inherited by the King of France or vice versa resulting in the inception of a huge, wealthy and powerful Empire in western Europe governed by an absolutist Monarch. |
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Dec 29, 2021 20:34:56 GMT
Perhaps give Eleanor of Aquitaine a son with Louis VII. That would be interesting. Louis VII was by all accounts a complete bastard towards Eleanor and the lack of a male heir was one reasons Louis had their marriage annulled. Eleanor then goes on to marry Henry II, King of England bringing with her the Duchy of Aquitaine and thus founding the Angevin Empire. If Eleanor has sons to Louis, divorces him and then marries Henry and goes on to have sons with him that would make the future King of France (Philip II in OTL) and the future King of England (Richard I in OTL) half-brothers. In OTL Richard I marries Berengaria of Navarre, but this union did not result in sons so the Throne of England past to John, Richard I younger brother. In the ATL it could be that the King of England is the last of his line in which case the Throne of England may be inherited by the King of France or vice versa resulting in the inception of a huge, wealthy and powerful Empire in western Europe governed by an absolutist Monarch. I would actually prefer if Eleanor ended up like her grand daughter Blanche of Castile who still had time for Theobald of Champagne. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 30, 2021 12:40:07 GMT
Perhaps give Eleanor of Aquitaine a son with Louis VII. That would be interesting. Louis VII was by all accounts a complete bastard towards Eleanor and the lack of a male heir was one reasons Louis had their marriage annulled. Eleanor then goes on to marry Henry II, King of England bringing with her the Duchy of Aquitaine and thus founding the Angevin Empire. If Eleanor has sons to Louis, divorces him and then marries Henry and goes on to have sons with him that would make the future King of France (Philip II in OTL) and the future King of England (Richard I in OTL) half-brothers. In OTL Richard I marries Berengaria of Navarre, but this union did not result in sons so the Throne of England past to John, Richard I younger brother. In the ATL it could be that the King of England is the last of his line in which case the Throne of England may be inherited by the King of France or vice versa resulting in the inception of a huge, wealthy and powerful Empire in western Europe governed by an absolutist Monarch.
That assumes that Eleanor in her 2nd marriage has pretty much the same children as OTL and they end up with the same fates. Richard might have had an heir if he hadn't spent so much time on crusade, then held hostage. Similarly he was the 3rd of 5 sons so if either of the older ones survive their father, preferably without falling out with him so much they might have had son's of their own.
Plus if the French king was in a position to inherit the Plantagenet lands, which also included large chunks of France especially prior to John, as well as claims to Wales and Ireland then I could see a lot of French lords, along with probably some external powers [cough HRE cough to name one] to be more than eager to intervene to prevent such an empire emerging.
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Dec 30, 2021 18:03:52 GMT
That would be interesting. Louis VII was by all accounts a complete bastard towards Eleanor and the lack of a male heir was one reasons Louis had their marriage annulled. Eleanor then goes on to marry Henry II, King of England bringing with her the Duchy of Aquitaine and thus founding the Angevin Empire. If Eleanor has sons to Louis, divorces him and then marries Henry and goes on to have sons with him that would make the future King of France (Philip II in OTL) and the future King of England (Richard I in OTL) half-brothers. In OTL Richard I marries Berengaria of Navarre, but this union did not result in sons so the Throne of England past to John, Richard I younger brother. In the ATL it could be that the King of England is the last of his line in which case the Throne of England may be inherited by the King of France or vice versa resulting in the inception of a huge, wealthy and powerful Empire in western Europe governed by an absolutist Monarch.
That assumes that Eleanor in her 2nd marriage has pretty much the same children as OTL and they end up with the same fates. Richard might have had an heir if he hadn't spent so much time on crusade, then held hostage. Similarly he was the 3rd of 5 sons so if either of the older ones survive their father, preferably without falling out with him so much they might have had son's of their own.
Plus if the French king was in a position to inherit the Plantagenet lands, which also included large chunks of France especially prior to John, as well as claims to Wales and Ireland then I could see a lot of French lords, along with probably some external powers [cough HRE cough to name one] to be more than eager to intervene to prevent such an empire emerging.
If she had a son with Louis VII, Henry II would be instead a court favorite of Eleanor and she would be an enemy of Barbarossa due to her claims to Toulouse and Margraviate of Provence. |
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Post by halferking on Jan 1, 2022 17:29:44 GMT
That would be interesting. Louis VII was by all accounts a complete bastard towards Eleanor and the lack of a male heir was one reasons Louis had their marriage annulled. Eleanor then goes on to marry Henry II, King of England bringing with her the Duchy of Aquitaine and thus founding the Angevin Empire. If Eleanor has sons to Louis, divorces him and then marries Henry and goes on to have sons with him that would make the future King of France (Philip II in OTL) and the future King of England (Richard I in OTL) half-brothers. In OTL Richard I marries Berengaria of Navarre, but this union did not result in sons so the Throne of England past to John, Richard I younger brother. In the ATL it could be that the King of England is the last of his line in which case the Throne of England may be inherited by the King of France or vice versa resulting in the inception of a huge, wealthy and powerful Empire in western Europe governed by an absolutist Monarch. I would actually prefer if Eleanor ended up like her grand daughter Blanche of Castile who still had time for Theobald of Champagne. Louis would have to have a complete personality change. Their marriage was doomed a son may have gone some way to smooth over the cracks, but it went much deeper than that her reputation was dragged through the mud and what didn't help was Louis intense jealousy that effectively kept Eleanor a prisoner. Eleanor would be Queen Mother of the future King of France and the King of England. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jan 2, 2022 20:00:47 GMT
The challenge here is what it says on the tin, stop the creation of Parliament to allow for an Absolutist England. Preferably, this should be done before the Magna Carta. And, if this does happen, what are the results? God forgive me but I would be unhappy. No Parliament, no God given rights of Englishmen, no American revolution, No US Constitution, no US Congress, Maybe no Parliament isn't such a bad idea? 
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Post by halferking on Jan 2, 2022 20:47:54 GMT
The challenge here is what it says on the tin, stop the creation of Parliament to allow for an Absolutist England. Preferably, this should be done before the Magna Carta. And, if this does happen, what are the results? God forgive me but I would be unhappy. No Parliament, no God given rights of Englishmen, no American revolution, No US Constitution, no US Congress, Maybe no Parliament isn't such a bad idea?
The American Revolution may have happened - no taxation without representation. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 3, 2022 17:04:13 GMT
God forgive me but I would be unhappy. No Parliament, no God given rights of Englishmen, no American revolution, No US Constitution, no US Congress, Maybe no Parliament isn't such a bad idea?
The American Revolution may have happened - no taxation without representation.
Which was an idea from English common law which won't be developing here if the TL goes the way suggested. Even assuming than there is any sizeable 'English' settlement in N America or anywhere else in this scenario.
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kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
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Post by kasumigenx on Jan 4, 2022 9:28:46 GMT
I would actually prefer if Eleanor ended up like her grand daughter Blanche of Castile who still had time for Theobald of Champagne. Louis would have to have a complete personality change. Their marriage was doomed a son may have gone some way to smooth over the cracks, but it went much deeper than that her reputation was dragged through the mud and what didn't help was Louis intense jealousy that effectively kept Eleanor a prisoner. Eleanor would be Queen Mother of the future King of France and the King of England. The same is for her OTL grand daughter Blanche actually but Eleanor having a son with Louis VII would have made her a regent of France in some capacity after the death of her husband, which I think would likely happen sooner than later due to his stress with Eleanor. Henry II also imprisoned her IOTL. |
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Post by halferking on Jan 4, 2022 18:27:39 GMT
The American Revolution may have happened - no taxation without representation.
Which was an idea from English common law which won't be developing here if the TL goes the way suggested. Even assuming than there is any sizeable 'English' settlement in N America or anywhere else in this scenario.
I suspect that English Common Law would develop in some form or other. |
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Post by halferking on Jan 4, 2022 18:36:45 GMT
Louis would have to have a complete personality change. Their marriage was doomed a son may have gone some way to smooth over the cracks, but it went much deeper than that her reputation was dragged through the mud and what didn't help was Louis intense jealousy that effectively kept Eleanor a prisoner. Eleanor would be Queen Mother of the future King of France and the King of England. The same is for her OTL grand daughter Blanche actually but Eleanor having a son with Louis VII would have made her a regent of France in some capacity after the death of her husband, which I think would likely happen sooner than later due to his stress with Eleanor. Henry II also imprisoned her IOTL. To be fair to Henry II she did try to oust him. |
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kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
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Post by kasumigenx on Jan 4, 2022 21:05:17 GMT
The same is for her OTL grand daughter Blanche actually but Eleanor having a son with Louis VII would have made her a regent of France in some capacity after the death of her husband, which I think would likely happen sooner than later due to his stress with Eleanor. Henry II also imprisoned her IOTL. To be fair to Henry II she did try to oust him. That is why she deserves her first husband and be a regent I think. |
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