genyodectes
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Post by genyodectes on Dec 25, 2021 11:57:15 GMT
The challenge here is what it says on the tin, stop the creation of Parliament to allow for an Absolutist England. Preferably, this should be done before the Magna Carta. And, if this does happen, what are the results?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 26, 2021 14:05:04 GMT
The challenge here is what it says on the tin, stop the creation of Parliament to allow for an Absolutist England. Preferably, this should be done before the Magna Carta. And, if this does happen, what are the results?
Well things were pretty autocratic for much of the Plantagenet and early Tudor period, limited largely by the weakness of the kings in some cases to major barons and the remains pf the earlier Anglo-Saxon system. Magna Carta was a victory for the great lords after all.
Possibly Henry II avoids some of his problems and establishes a more stable state over his empire, of which England was only one, albeit significant part. If he doesn't make Thomas Becket Archbishop of Canterbury and gets someone who won't pick quarrels with him, hence avoiding Becket's murder and Henry's excommunication. Also possibly trusting his oldest son 'Young" Henry more and avoiding the OTL rebellions. Probably still going to have problems with Richard at some time or another unless he dies at some stage and his other older son Geoffrey. John was probably too weak a character plus he could just die in childbirth.
Couple this with a heavy defeat or two of Phillip II of France which is quite possible without the internal conflict which weakens France, possibly even seeing Henry gaining complete control of his continental territories rather than then being fiefdoms of France and adding Brittany as a protectorate say - to remove French influence from pretty much all the coastal regions. Might even see Henry joined by other French fiefdoms in reducing Phillip's power generally.
That could set the basis for a system where, with more control of the overseas territories England is less important for the dynasty and either Henry and/or his successors can suppress the early Parliaments as happened across much of the continent.
Its going to be a markedly darker future for England without restraint on the monarchy and possibly for Europe as a whole but it's [unfortunately] not impossible.
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genyodectes
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Post by genyodectes on Dec 26, 2021 14:10:29 GMT
The challenge here is what it says on the tin, stop the creation of Parliament to allow for an Absolutist England. Preferably, this should be done before the Magna Carta. And, if this does happen, what are the results?
Well things were pretty autocratic for much of the Plantagenet and early Tudor period, limited largely by the weakness of the kings in some cases to major barons and the remains pf the earlier Anglo-Saxon system. Magna Carta was a victory for the great lords after all.
Possibly Henry II avoids some of his problems and establishes a more stable state over his empire, of which England was only one, albeit significant part. If he doesn't make Thomas Becket Archbishop of Canterbury and gets someone who won't pick quarrels with him, hence avoiding Becket's murder and Henry's excommunication. Also possibly trusting his oldest son 'Young" Henry more and avoiding the OTL rebellions. Probably still going to have problems with Richard at some time or another unless he dies at some stage and his other older son Geoffrey. John was probably too weak a character plus he could just die in childbirth.
Couple this with a heavy defeat or two of Phillip II of France which is quite possible without the internal conflict which weakens France, possibly even seeing Henry gaining complete control of his continental territories rather than then being fiefdoms of France and adding Brittany as a protectorate say - to remove French influence from pretty much all the coastal regions. Might even see Henry joined by other French fiefdoms in reducing Phillip's power generally.
That could set the basis for a system where, with more control of the overseas territories England is less important for the dynasty and either Henry and/or his successors can suppress the early Parliaments as happened across much of the continent.
Its going to be a markedly darker future for England without restraint on the monarchy and possibly for Europe as a whole but it's [unfortunately] not impossible.
I am in the process of working on a timeline, first with Dynasties being mapped out, where Absolute Monarchies and centralized monarchies w/o Parliament are the norm everywhere but France. Was wondering if you'd be interested in helping me with it/taking a look at it |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 26, 2021 16:25:57 GMT
Well things were pretty autocratic for much of the Plantagenet and early Tudor period, limited largely by the weakness of the kings in some cases to major barons and the remains pf the earlier Anglo-Saxon system. Magna Carta was a victory for the great lords after all.
Possibly Henry II avoids some of his problems and establishes a more stable state over his empire, of which England was only one, albeit significant part. If he doesn't make Thomas Becket Archbishop of Canterbury and gets someone who won't pick quarrels with him, hence avoiding Becket's murder and Henry's excommunication. Also possibly trusting his oldest son 'Young" Henry more and avoiding the OTL rebellions. Probably still going to have problems with Richard at some time or another unless he dies at some stage and his other older son Geoffrey. John was probably too weak a character plus he could just die in childbirth.
Couple this with a heavy defeat or two of Phillip II of France which is quite possible without the internal conflict which weakens France, possibly even seeing Henry gaining complete control of his continental territories rather than then being fiefdoms of France and adding Brittany as a protectorate say - to remove French influence from pretty much all the coastal regions. Might even see Henry joined by other French fiefdoms in reducing Phillip's power generally.
That could set the basis for a system where, with more control of the overseas territories England is less important for the dynasty and either Henry and/or his successors can suppress the early Parliaments as happened across much of the continent.
Its going to be a markedly darker future for England without restraint on the monarchy and possibly for Europe as a whole but it's [unfortunately] not impossible.
I am in the process of working on a timeline, first with Dynasties being mapped out, where Absolute Monarchies and centralized monarchies w/o Parliament are the norm everywhere but France. Was wondering if you'd be interested in helping me with it/taking a look at it
Interesting idea. Any reason why France is the exception? Any other areas such as the Swiss who had an history of being non-monarchies?
I must admit I'm too lazy nowadays to really do work on a TL. Like to dabble and contribute but don't have the will-power to really do much in researching and developing a serious TL.
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genyodectes
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I'm just a Ceratosaur trying to make his way in Alternate History
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Post by genyodectes on Dec 26, 2021 16:34:41 GMT
I am in the process of working on a timeline, first with Dynasties being mapped out, where Absolute Monarchies and centralized monarchies w/o Parliament are the norm everywhere but France. Was wondering if you'd be interested in helping me with it/taking a look at it
Interesting idea. Any reason why France is the exception? Any other areas such as the Swiss who had an history of being non-monarchies?
I must admit I'm too lazy nowadays to really do work on a TL. Like to dabble and contribute but don't have the will-power to really do much in researching and developing a serious TL.
Reason why the French are the Exception - A centralized HRE, United Iberia, and England keeps getting involved in their internal affairs and following the death of King Robert II w/o Male Issue leads to France being an extremely decentralized Country with the King being elected from a group of candidates that are between the HRE, English, Iberians, Sicilian, and Native backers. Overtime, France does become a hereditary Monarchy but at the cost of allowing the lords to have the ultimate say in everything except who the King married his children with via a very early National Assembly. I don't know how Switzerland would look here in a centralized HRE state via Otto III living longer and having a stable succession. I can give you the details on discord if you want them. Any ideas or things you can offer would be a really great help |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 27, 2021 11:36:15 GMT
Interesting idea. Any reason why France is the exception? Any other areas such as the Swiss who had an history of being non-monarchies?
I must admit I'm too lazy nowadays to really do work on a TL. Like to dabble and contribute but don't have the will-power to really do much in researching and developing a serious TL.
Reason why the French are the Exception - A centralized HRE, United Iberia, and England keeps getting involved in their internal affairs and following the death of King Robert II w/o Male Issue leads to France being an extremely decentralized Country with the King being elected from a group of candidates that are between the HRE, English, Iberians, Sicilian, and Native backers. Overtime, France does become a hereditary Monarchy but at the cost of allowing the lords to have the ultimate say in everything except who the King married his children with via a very early National Assembly. I don't know how Switzerland would look here in a centralized HRE state via Otto III living longer and having a stable succession. I can give you the details on discord if you want them. Any ideas or things you can offer would be a really great help
Ah thanks for explaining. Sounds like a cross between OTL HRE and Poland in the final generations prior to the partitions.
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575
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Post by 575 on Dec 27, 2021 12:08:12 GMT
The challenge here is what it says on the tin, stop the creation of Parliament to allow for an Absolutist England. Preferably, this should be done before the Magna Carta. And, if this does happen, what are the results?
Well things were pretty autocratic for much of the Plantagenet and early Tudor period, limited largely by the weakness of the kings in some cases to major barons and the remains pf the earlier Anglo-Saxon system. Magna Carta was a victory for the great lords after all.
Possibly Henry II avoids some of his problems and establishes a more stable state over his empire, of which England was only one, albeit significant part. If he doesn't make Thomas Becket Archbishop of Canterbury and gets someone who won't pick quarrels with him, hence avoiding Becket's murder and Henry's excommunication. Also possibly trusting his oldest son 'Young" Henry more and avoiding the OTL rebellions. Probably still going to have problems with Richard at some time or another unless he dies at some stage and his other older son Geoffrey. John was probably too weak a character plus he could just die in childbirth.
Couple this with a heavy defeat or two of Phillip II of France which is quite possible without the internal conflict which weakens France, possibly even seeing Henry gaining complete control of his continental territories rather than then being fiefdoms of France and adding Brittany as a protectorate say - to remove French influence from pretty much all the coastal regions. Might even see Henry joined by other French fiefdoms in reducing Phillip's power generally.
That could set the basis for a system where, with more control of the overseas territories England is less important for the dynasty and either Henry and/or his successors can suppress the early Parliaments as happened across much of the continent.
Its going to be a markedly darker future for England without restraint on the monarchy and possibly for Europe as a whole but it's [unfortunately] not impossible.
stevep;
Seems to be quite some situation if occuring during OTL - quite some player across the Channel free of powersharing bonds.. would like to see the consequences in the HRE - perhaps a stronger Emperor simply out of needs to fend off the British incursions!
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genyodectes
Warrant Officer
I'm just a Ceratosaur trying to make his way in Alternate History
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Post by genyodectes on Dec 27, 2021 12:22:20 GMT
Reason why the French are the Exception - A centralized HRE, United Iberia, and England keeps getting involved in their internal affairs and following the death of King Robert II w/o Male Issue leads to France being an extremely decentralized Country with the King being elected from a group of candidates that are between the HRE, English, Iberians, Sicilian, and Native backers. Overtime, France does become a hereditary Monarchy but at the cost of allowing the lords to have the ultimate say in everything except who the King married his children with via a very early National Assembly. I don't know how Switzerland would look here in a centralized HRE state via Otto III living longer and having a stable succession. I can give you the details on discord if you want them. Any ideas or things you can offer would be a really great help
Ah thanks for explaining. Sounds like a cross between OTL HRE and Poland in the final generations prior to the partitions.
Yeah, that's the basic idea for it. Wdyt of the whole Iberia being United and HRE being centralized thx to the Ottonians (England gets the Ottonians on their throne instead of the Normans) |
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genyodectes
Warrant Officer
I'm just a Ceratosaur trying to make his way in Alternate History
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Post by genyodectes on Dec 27, 2021 12:26:06 GMT
Well things were pretty autocratic for much of the Plantagenet and early Tudor period, limited largely by the weakness of the kings in some cases to major barons and the remains pf the earlier Anglo-Saxon system. Magna Carta was a victory for the great lords after all.
Possibly Henry II avoids some of his problems and establishes a more stable state over his empire, of which England was only one, albeit significant part. If he doesn't make Thomas Becket Archbishop of Canterbury and gets someone who won't pick quarrels with him, hence avoiding Becket's murder and Henry's excommunication. Also possibly trusting his oldest son 'Young" Henry more and avoiding the OTL rebellions. Probably still going to have problems with Richard at some time or another unless he dies at some stage and his other older son Geoffrey. John was probably too weak a character plus he could just die in childbirth.
Couple this with a heavy defeat or two of Phillip II of France which is quite possible without the internal conflict which weakens France, possibly even seeing Henry gaining complete control of his continental territories rather than then being fiefdoms of France and adding Brittany as a protectorate say - to remove French influence from pretty much all the coastal regions. Might even see Henry joined by other French fiefdoms in reducing Phillip's power generally.
That could set the basis for a system where, with more control of the overseas territories England is less important for the dynasty and either Henry and/or his successors can suppress the early Parliaments as happened across much of the continent.
Its going to be a markedly darker future for England without restraint on the monarchy and possibly for Europe as a whole but it's [unfortunately] not impossible.
stevep;
Seems to be quite some situation if occuring during OTL - quite some player across the Channel free of powersharing bonds.. would like to see the consequences in the HRE - perhaps a stronger Emperor simply out of needs to fend off the British incursions!
I don't think Britain/England and the HRE would clash much. English interests were mostly focused in Scotland and Ireland, maybe Scandanavia too, that wouldn't change with an extremely weakened France. Meanwhile, HRE interests would be to the East with the Ottonians surviving. Maybe we could see a Personal Union with Hungary and Poland ITTL too. I can let more info since I really wanna show off and talk about my idea some more |
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kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
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Post by kasumigenx on Dec 27, 2021 20:33:31 GMT
Perhaps give Eleanor of Aquitaine a son with Louis VII.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Dec 28, 2021 12:35:03 GMT
Perhaps give Eleanor of Aquitaine a son with Louis VII.
Well that would remove Aquitaine as part of Henry II's territories, assuming that the child means the two stay married. Hence a weaker 'England' but also without the complications it caused with relations with France and the sometimes fractious personal tensions between Eleanor and Henry. There will still be issues as the Plantagenet lands on the continent makes Henry the largest and most powerful subordinate of the French king. Also it raises the question of whom Henry marries and what children he has here.
Mind you depending on Eleanor's views about Aquitaine possibly coming under direct French rule due to her son becoming the next French king its possible, if say she has a 2nd son and want's him to inherit her family lands, she could end up allied with Henry and others against the central monarchy. That does however assume she's willing to oppose her own elder son which might be an issue.
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Post by halferking on Dec 28, 2021 13:08:09 GMT
On 25 November 1120 Henry I Beauclerc and his Royal Retinue, which included his only legitimate son William Adelin, Duke of Normandy were to return to England from Normandy. Thomas FitzStephen, son Stephen FitzAirard the captain of the Mora, King William I ship, offered the use of his ship to Henry. Henry had made other arrangements and declined the offer, but he allowed his son and others including Stephen of Blois and William Adelin's half-sister Matilda, Countess of Perche to board.
The crew had asked William Adelin if they could have wine and William Adelin was more than happy to oblige. By the time the White Ship was ready to set sail there were some 300 people onboard although certain people including Stephen of Blois, had disembarked due to being absolutely trolleyed. The remaining heavily intoxicated revellers, William among them, had ordered FitzStephen to overtake the King's ship and reach England first. The White Ship was more than capable of such a task, but as they left the port of Barfluer in Normandy they struck a submerged rock called Quillebœuf.
William Adelin was able to get into a small rowing boat and escaped the sinking vessel. He would have survived had it not been for the screams of his half-sister Matilda. William naturally started to move towards the stricken ship in an effort to save his sister, but as he drew close the little wooden vessel became overwhelmed by the sheer number of panicking party goers scrambling aboard and it too succumbed the dark cold embrace of Neptune's arms...
In England the grief stricken King was now without a male heir, but that was not to say he had no options for he had a legitimate daughter Matilda who in 1144 had married Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor. On Henry V death in 1125 Henry I Beauclerc had his daughter marry Geoffrey V, Count of Anjou. Henry had tried to declare his daughter heir apparent. When Henry I Beauclerc died in 1135 Matilda's cousin Stephen of Blois seized the throne and the island was plunged into absolute chaos with Stephen having to contained with a maelstrom of trouble from disloyal English Barons, rebellious Welsh leaders and invasions from Scotland. In 1139, following a major rebellion in the south-west Empress Matilda invaded.
Matilda's husband was successful in taking Normandy, but Matilda's campaign in England turned in to a grinding nightmare war of attrition with neither Stephen nor Matilda being able to land a decisive blow. The south-west came under Matilda's control and the south-east under Stephen control with most of the rest of the country fell under the control of the Barons. In 1141 the forces of Matilda were able to capture Stephen at the Battle of Lincoln, which caused his support in the country to collapse plunging the realm into a little known period of history - The Anarchy.
The civil war is known as The Anarchy and saw Matilda ultimately win when Stephen agreed to her son Henry FitzEmpress to inherit the Throne as Henry II. At this point I would hazard a guess that Henry II would want to rule supreme and take on the Barons who had grown powerful during the civil war. This would be a good time to crush any idea of representative Parliamentary democracy.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 28, 2021 16:24:52 GMT
On 25 November 1120 Henry I Beauclerc and his Royal Retinue, which included his only legitimate son William Adelin, Duke of Normandy were to return to England from Normandy. Thomas FitzStephen, son Stephen FitzAirard the captain of the Mora, King William I ship, offered the use of his ship to Henry. Henry had made other arrangements and declined the offer, but he allowed his son and others including Stephen of Blois and William Adelin's half-sister Matilda, Countess of Perche to board. The crew had asked William Adelin if they could have wine and William Adelin was more than happy to oblige. By the time the White Ship was ready to set sail there were some 300 people onboard although certain people including Stephen of Blois, had disembarked due to being absolutely trolleyed. The remaining heavily intoxicated revellers, William among them, had ordered FitzStephen to overtake the King's ship and reach England first. The White Ship was more than capable of such a task, but as they left the port of Barfluer in Normandy they struck a submerged rock called Quillebœuf. William Adelin was able to get into a small rowing boat and escaped the sinking vessel. He would have survived had it not been for the screams of his half-sister Matilda. William naturally started to move towards the stricken ship in an effort to save his sister, but as he drew close the little wooden vessel became overwhelmed by the sheer number of panicking party goers scrambling aboard and it too succumbed the dark cold embrace of Neptune's arms... In England the grief stricken King was now without a male heir, but that was not to say he had no options for he had a legitimate daughter Matilda who in 1144 had married Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor. On Henry V death in 1125 Henry I Beauclerc had his daughter marry Geoffrey V, Count of Anjou. Henry had tried to declare his daughter heir apparent. When Henry I Beauclerc died in 1135 Matilda's cousin Stephen of Blois seized the throne and the island was plunged into absolute chaos with Stephen having to contained with a maelstrom of trouble from disloyal English Barons, rebellious Welsh leaders and invasions from Scotland. In 1139, following a major rebellion in the south-west Empress Matilda invaded. Matilda's husband was successful in taking Normandy, but Matilda's campaign in England turned in to a grinding nightmare war of attrition with neither Stephen nor Matilda being able to land a decisive blow. The south-west came under Matilda's control and the south-east under Stephen control with most of the rest of the country fell under the control of the Barons. In 1141 the forces of Matilda were able to capture Stephen at the Battle of Lincoln, which caused his support in the country to collapse plunging the realm into a little known period of history - The Anarchy. The civil war is known as The Anarchy and saw Matilda ultimately win when Stephen agreed to her son Henry FitzEmpress to inherit the Throne as Henry II. At this point I would hazard a guess that Henry II would want to rule supreme and take on the Barons who had grown powerful during the civil war. This would be a good time to crush any idea of representative Parliamentary democracy.
Ah the white ship disaster. I was thinking at 1st that you were suggesting that could be avoided, which would have meant Henry I was replaced by his son William III and the Anarchy would have been avoided. Which might be a path to genyodectes, plan for the crushing of any regional opposition to centralised autocratic rule.
Just to clarify were there two Matilda's? You mention the queen who succeeded - or tried to - Henry but also the Matilda on the white ship, who I would assume died. Checking the wiki page for the incident that does appear to be the case as it refers to Henry having " a second daughter named Matilda". Know some names seem too common in families.  |
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Post by halferking on Dec 28, 2021 21:33:39 GMT
On 25 November 1120 Henry I Beauclerc and his Royal Retinue, which included his only legitimate son William Adelin, Duke of Normandy were to return to England from Normandy. Thomas FitzStephen, son Stephen FitzAirard the captain of the Mora, King William I ship, offered the use of his ship to Henry. Henry had made other arrangements and declined the offer, but he allowed his son and others including Stephen of Blois and William Adelin's half-sister Matilda, Countess of Perche to board. The crew had asked William Adelin if they could have wine and William Adelin was more than happy to oblige. By the time the White Ship was ready to set sail there were some 300 people onboard although certain people including Stephen of Blois, had disembarked due to being absolutely trolleyed. The remaining heavily intoxicated revellers, William among them, had ordered FitzStephen to overtake the King's ship and reach England first. The White Ship was more than capable of such a task, but as they left the port of Barfluer in Normandy they struck a submerged rock called Quillebœuf. William Adelin was able to get into a small rowing boat and escaped the sinking vessel. He would have survived had it not been for the screams of his half-sister Matilda. William naturally started to move towards the stricken ship in an effort to save his sister, but as he drew close the little wooden vessel became overwhelmed by the sheer number of panicking party goers scrambling aboard and it too succumbed the dark cold embrace of Neptune's arms... In England the grief stricken King was now without a male heir, but that was not to say he had no options for he had a legitimate daughter Matilda who in 1144 had married Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor. On Henry V death in 1125 Henry I Beauclerc had his daughter marry Geoffrey V, Count of Anjou. Henry had tried to declare his daughter heir apparent. When Henry I Beauclerc died in 1135 Matilda's cousin Stephen of Blois seized the throne and the island was plunged into absolute chaos with Stephen having to contained with a maelstrom of trouble from disloyal English Barons, rebellious Welsh leaders and invasions from Scotland. In 1139, following a major rebellion in the south-west Empress Matilda invaded. Matilda's husband was successful in taking Normandy, but Matilda's campaign in England turned in to a grinding nightmare war of attrition with neither Stephen nor Matilda being able to land a decisive blow. The south-west came under Matilda's control and the south-east under Stephen control with most of the rest of the country fell under the control of the Barons. In 1141 the forces of Matilda were able to capture Stephen at the Battle of Lincoln, which caused his support in the country to collapse plunging the realm into a little known period of history - The Anarchy. The civil war is known as The Anarchy and saw Matilda ultimately win when Stephen agreed to her son Henry FitzEmpress to inherit the Throne as Henry II. At this point I would hazard a guess that Henry II would want to rule supreme and take on the Barons who had grown powerful during the civil war. This would be a good time to crush any idea of representative Parliamentary democracy.
Ah the white ship disaster. I was thinking at 1st that you were suggesting that could be avoided, which would have meant Henry I was replaced by his son William III and the Anarchy would have been avoided. Which might be a path to genyodectes , plan for the crushing of any regional opposition to centralised autocratic rule.
Just to clarify were there two Matilda's? You mention the queen who succeeded - or tried to - Henry but also the Matilda on the white ship, who I would assume died. Checking the wiki page for the incident that does appear to be the case as it refers to Henry having " a second daughter named Matilda". Know some names seem too common in families. The Anarchy, as the name suggests, was a period of complete lawlessness - a King could declare 'a dictatorship of necessity' to restore order. Matilda or Mathilde is a French name of Germanic origin, which reflects the ancestry of the Norman people. Henry I Beauclerc's mother was Matilda of Flanders, one of his sisters is believed to be called Matilda and his first wife was Edith of Scotland who changed her name to Matilda. Henry had a healthy sexual appetite and is thought to have fathered numerous children with numerous women - no one is sure how many, but my understanding that his entire brood could have made at least a Football team - they didn't have TV or central heating in the 12th century, so I guess they had to do something to entertain themselves and keep warm... It is thought however that the offspring of Henry's union to his first wife, Edith 'Matilda' of Scotland, were the legitimate heirs. He had a son William Adelin, who died when the White Ship sunk and a daughter Adelaide who for some reason it seems changed her name to Matilda upon marrying Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor. Empress Matilda was also known by the name Maude... The Matilda of the White Ship disaster I believe was known as Matilda FitzRoy, Countess of Perche the daughter of Henry I Beauclerc and an unidentified woman making her the half-sister of William Adelin. |
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kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
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Post by kasumigenx on Dec 28, 2021 23:24:28 GMT
Perhaps give Eleanor of Aquitaine a son with Louis VII.
Well that would remove Aquitaine as part of Henry II's territories, assuming that the child means the two stay married. Hence a weaker 'England' but also without the complications it caused with relations with France and the sometimes fractious personal tensions between Eleanor and Henry. There will still be issues as the Plantagenet lands on the continent makes Henry the largest and most powerful subordinate of the French king. Also it raises the question of whom Henry marries and what children he has here.
Mind you depending on Eleanor's views about Aquitaine possibly coming under direct French rule due to her son becoming the next French king its possible, if say she has a 2nd son and want's him to inherit her family lands, she could end up allied with Henry and others against the central monarchy. That does however assume she's willing to oppose her own elder son which might be an issue.
She would have everything to gain in Aquitaine being integrated to France, it would destroy the chances of Oil being the language of France and the King of France can confiscate Toulouse if he wants to as Eleanor has claims to that. |
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