lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 16, 2021 16:51:28 GMT
So the Swedish lost the battle of Göteborg/Vinga against the Danish-Norwegians, that is going to hurt. Its gonna sting! And make for some changes in national policies later on.. Depends if Sweden wins the war, would be interesting to see how the 2nd Norwegian War of Independence will effect events nine years from now.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 16, 2021 17:33:59 GMT
Indeed indeed - though there is no guarantee of a rerun!
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 16, 2021 18:20:34 GMT
Repairs: Ivar Hvitfeldt didn't make it to Danish port; it had to be beached on the sand banks off Læsø.
Valkyrien and Herluf Trolle made it to Frederikshavn in north Jutland where preliminary repairs were carried out before the ships continued to Sjælland for repairs at Elsinore and Copenhagen Navy Yard.
The Torpedoboats also sailed to Frederikshavn for repairs and local yard owner H.V. Buhl suddenly realized he had the orders for the enlargement of his boat yard into a real steelship yard. Buhl visiting the bank manager being a happy man. So would be the Danish and Norwegian Navies as this development made for a repair facility close to the main blockade station off Göteborg. (Today Frederikshavn is the main base of the Royal Danish Navy – I didn't do anyting!)
The Norwegian ships would also steam to Denmark for repairs as the facilities to work such being there and would be a practical positive of the alliance.
The Naval battle of Göteborg/Vinga would be the final bout of hostilities of the war besides the occasional flaring up of artillery duels on the Norwegian border and around Kongsvinger Fortress.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 16, 2021 18:22:57 GMT
Repairs: Ivar Hvitfeldt didn't make it to Danish port; it had to be beached on the sand banks off Læsø. Valkyrien and Herluf Trolle made it to Frederikshavn in north Jutland where preliminary repairs were carried out before the ships continued to Sjælland for repairs at Elsinore and Copenhagen Navy Yard. The Torpedoboats also sailed to Frederikshavn for repairs and local yard owner H.V. Buhl suddenly realized he had the orders for the enlargement of his boat yard into a real steelship yard. Buhl visiting the bank manager being a happy man. So would be the Danish and Norwegian Navies as this development made for a repair facility close to the main blockade station off Göteborg. (Today Frederikshavn is the main base of the Royal Danish Navy – I didn't do anyting!) The Norwegian ships would also steam to Denmark for repairs as the facilities to work such being there and would be a practical positive of the alliance. The Naval battle of Göteborg/Vinga would be the final bout of hostilities of the war besides the occasional flaring up of artillery duels on the Norwegian border and around Kongsvinger Fortress. So the Naval battle of Göteborg/Vinga was the only major battle in the 2nd Norwegian War of Independence.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 16, 2021 20:03:56 GMT
It was the most important battle as the original Swedish plan was not to be implemented thus saving Norway from defeat - at timely arrival of the RN! War isn't all over with and done; more to follow on the ground though.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 16, 2021 20:09:46 GMT
It was the most important battle as the original Swedish plan was not to be implemented thus saving Norway from defeat - at timely arrival of the RN! War isn't all over with and done; more to follow on the ground though. Was the RN already in the erea waiting to intervene ore dis they arrive during the battle and what where there orders, to observe ore to engage.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 17, 2021 10:53:30 GMT
It was the most important battle as the original Swedish plan was not to be implemented thus saving Norway from defeat - at timely arrival of the RN! War isn't all over with and done; more to follow on the ground though. Was the RN already in the erea waiting to intervene ore dis they arrive during the battle and what where there orders, to observe ore to engage. The RN just arrived - I have seen no copy of their orders! Though to be fair the British Government just wants to know what is going on and perhaps ensure that Queen Maud still have her country!
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 17, 2021 10:55:16 GMT
23. September 1905: Getting detailled information of the events on the march on Kongsvinger the Swedish General Staff decided to halt the advance halfways to the town/Fortress though getting the orders through took time and by then the Swedish 1. Army had reached Kongsvinger preparing to cross the Glomma though not without loss to Norwegian snipers. Locally attempts were made to use trails for encircling Norwegian defenders which usually proved possible if not defended by too large units. Resupplying such moving units that didn't reach own units at the end of march proved close to impossible mostly from Norwegian guerillas cutting off communications and withering down the lost units. The difficult terrain in the area proved the best ally of the defender.
Further south the Swedes had a better time. The Norwegian defenders had evacuated Halden and moved along the coast back to Frederiksstad to cross the Glomma into safety. Without a Swedish landing on the east coast of the Kristiania Fiord this proved possible.
The Bohus Detactment had been ordered up through Halden to assault Sarpsborg taking advantage of the railway line for supplies. It proved to be the one assault on the Glomma Line to almost breach it though in the end the expenditure of artillery shells and other munitions made for the assault to be called of.
Sarpsborg served as the place of rotating troops in and out of to keep casualties down and the place where the Danish 26. Reserve Battalion and Hussar Squadron would also see service during the breif war. The flexible use of the Hussars light machineguns to stop Swedish advances in critical areas not covered by the deployed Hotchkiss heavy machineguns convinced both Danish and Norwegian officers that this would be the integral supportweapon of the Infantry in the future. Later reports from Sibiria would confirm this as the Russian Army had also made good use of their Madsen light machineguns.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 18, 2021 18:56:40 GMT
24. September 1905 As fighting entered a pause due to lack of ammunition difficult terrain and enemy action the Great Powers agreed on presenting a united front against the Scandinavians. The Germans and Russians would pressure the Swedes and the British and French the Danes and Norwegians to accept a cease fire and lifting of Naval blockade.
The pause in the fighting before peace talks could be initiated was relatively quiet though one incident did stirr the international media; the attack by Danish Torpedoboats on a German Navy Armoured Ship!
Late one October evening (or so the story goes) German Armoured Ship Beowulf was testing the Danish Navy in the Storebælt (Great Baelt) going north up the Baelt it challeged a Danish merchantman.
While a search party was getting into boats and rowing towards the merchantman a Squadron of four Danish Torpedoboats going slowly north ahead of the German ship began to increase speed and then turn to port moving from line astern to line abreast and still increasing speed. At the change of formation and turning the Danish Torpedoboats now heading at the German Armoured Ship the German officers and sailors suddenly realized what was happening.
Whistles and klaxons blowing and howling the boats began to turn to get back to their ship meanwhile the Danish Torpedoboats seemed to increase speed as silver foam would fly from their bows as they moved through the water coming down on the German Armoured Ship.
As the German sailors frantically pulled at the oars to get back to safety some signalflags went up mast at one Danish Torpedoboat; interpreted as a possible attack signal battlestations were sounded on the German Armoured Ship only adding to the confusion and anxiety aboard.
At three kablelengths distance the Danish Torpedoboats suddenly turned to port slowed down and whistles blowing Danish sailors would stand to attention at the railing while the front Torpedoboat would salute the German Armoured Ship as the Danish boats passed by in line astern! A sigh of relief was drawn on the German ship and several sailors and gunnery officers pants wetted. The Danish merchantman meanwhile silently slipping away.
It would be a tale told over and over again in sailors and officers messes in Danish and Norwegian ports and on ships to much laughter and many toasts. Some would say that the Squadron Commander in the Great Bealt would be Lieutenant (OF-2) Henri Konow (who OTL would be the last Danish Govenor of Danish West Indies/Virgin Islands during 1917 prior to the Islands being transferred to the USA) mainly because such a salute of a foreign warship would well have been made by Konow.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 18, 2021 19:06:40 GMT
24. September 1905 As fighting entered a pause due to lack of ammunition difficult terrain and enemy action the Great Powers agreed on presenting a united front against the Scandinavians. The Germans and Russians would pressure the Swedes and the British and French the Danes and Norwegians to accept a cease fire and lifting of Naval blockade. The pause in the fighting before peace talks could be initiated was relatively quiet though one incident did stirr the international media; the attack by Danish Torpedoboats on a German Navy Armoured Ship! Late one October evening (or so the story goes) German Armoured Ship Beowulf was testing the Danish Navy in the Storebælt (Great Baelt) going north up the Baelt it challeged a Danish merchantman. While a search party was getting into boats and rowing towards the merchantman a Squadron of four Danish Torpedoboats going slowly north ahead of the German ship began to increase speed and then turn to port moving from line astern to line abreast and still increasing speed. At the change of formation and turning the Danish Torpedoboats now heading at the German Armoured Ship the German officers and sailors suddenly realized what was happening. Whistles and klaxons blowing and howling the boats began to turn to get back to their ship meanwhile the Danish Torpedoboats seemed to increase speed as silver foam would fly from their bows as they moved through the water coming down on the German Armoured Ship. As the German sailors frantically pulled at the oars to get back to safety some signalflags went up mast at one Danish Torpedoboat; interpreted as a possible attack signal battlestations were sounded on the German Armoured Ship only adding to the confusion and anxiety aboard. At three kablelengths distance the Danish Torpedoboats suddenly turned to port slowed down and whistles blowing Danish sailors would stand to attention at the railing while the front Torpedoboat would salute the German Armoured Ship as the Danish boats passed by in line astern! A sigh of relief was drawn on the German ship and several sailors and gunnery officers pants wetted. The Danish merchantman meanwhile silently slipping away. It would be a tale told over and over again in sailors and officers messes in Danish and Norwegian ports and on ships to much laughter and many toasts. Some would say that the Squadron Commander in the Great Bealt would be Lieutenant (OF-2) Henri Konow (who OTL would be the last Danish Govenor of Danish West Indies/Virgin Islands during 1917 prior to the Islands being transferred to the USA) mainly because such a salute of a foreign warship would well have been made by Konow.
I like that little story. Not quiet sure why a German ship was stopping a Danish merchantman? Has there been some agreement to seek to prevent arms getting to any of the combatants or is it just Berlin stretching its muscles?
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 18, 2021 21:12:07 GMT
Thank you - I just couldn't help but doing it. Remembering all those stories from my friends who had been serving with the Navy telling of MTBs in the Baltic harassing East German and Polish warships with mock torpedoruns! At times even the Airforce would take part in the fun with the Interceptors just above the surface like in that old Clint Eastwood movie Firefox coming in after the MBTs had broken off the the Pact sailors felt themselves safe!!! You might even be able to find a short movie of such on Youtube I think.. Yes a show of muscle by Berlin to try put those pesky Danes in their rightfull place - then the joke is on them. The only situation I could think of to let such take place.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 19, 2021 11:36:14 GMT
Thank you - I just couldn't help but doing it. Remembering all those stories from my friends who had been serving with the Navy telling of MTBs in the Baltic harassing East German and Polish warships with mock torpedoruns! At times even the Airforce would take part in the fun with the Interceptors just above the surface like in that old Clint Eastwood movie Firefox coming in after the MBTs had broken off the the Pact sailors felt themselves safe!!! You might even be able to find a short movie of such on Youtube I think.. Yes a show of muscle by Berlin to try put those pesky Danes in their rightfull place - then the joke is on them. The only situation I could think of to let such take place.
To me that sounds distinctly risky. The OTL action that is. Wouldn't there have been a risk of someone on one of those eastern bloc boats taking it as a real attack and shooting? Which could easily have escalated into a major crisis at the very least.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 19, 2021 20:46:55 GMT
It might have been - but they did it. It happened during the 1970'ties and 80'ties and would be reported in the press at times. Probably because as in the TL we were just a small nation and Moscow wanted to flex some muscle. Don't know if the West Germans had as much going too. Apparently both sides knew it was going to the edge and then step back.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 19, 2021 20:50:27 GMT
Peace talks: During mid-October the warring parties met at London for peace talks; present were of course representatives of the Great Powers. There had been some writings in newspapers about the conduct of war by the Swedish Army in Norway and a few of the Norwegians had some difficulty in sharing the table with the Swedish representatives even though these did talk of excessive use of violence during the conflict by some Swedish troops though insured the Great Powers representatives that any such would be tried and punished accordingly if found guilty though they also expressed the view that the actions of Norwegian civilian franc-tireurs were against the laws of civilized conduct of war!
Prior to convening at conference and as part of the cease-fire terms Denmark and Norway had officially lifted the Naval blockade of Sweden. It had not been effective since the battle of Göteborg/Vinga anyway mainly because of the loss of ships and thus means of enforcing it partly because Denmark and Norway well knew it would probably be to their benefit with the Great Powers. With the Swedish Navy in a similar state things had naturally cooled down.
The land border had been demilitarized for five kilometers which had been patrolled by British officers on the Swedish side and German officers on the Norwegian side; though only in the south at a few places in the center west of Trondhjem and at the Ore Railway border crossing east of Narvik. With the Great Powers in unison on the subject matter Sweden had to fold and the Norwegians and Danes lift the blockade and return ships seized and crews interned. Of course prisoners of war would be exchanged too at predestined points. The stories of the massacre and burning of Norwegian villages on the march on Kongsvinger went around the world. Military attaches and observers were much more interested in the actual fighting and supply of the Armies as well as the Navies and ammunition consumption which had exceeded all expectations. Generally however such would be attributed to the amateurish handling of logistics in backward second and third rate militaries. The effect of machineguns seemed to mimick that seen in Manchuria and would be something to take note of.
Norway was still a Kingdom but an independent one with its new King being the son in law of King Edward 7. Son of the Danish Crown Prince the later Frederik 8. and kin to most of the Royal houses of Europe. Sweden had to accept that as it had to accept the existence of Norwegian border fortifications and no veto on the watershed though a consultative clause was added to the treaty regarding shared watersheds. The Sami was secured free passage of borders in the north of Scandinavia.
The Ore Railway from Kiruna/Malmberget in Sweden to Narvik, Norway was given special attention. The British company running the railway naturally wanting to continue doing so but the recent war did muddy the waters. British pressure had to be applied to reach agreement for the time being; the British company would still run the railway and Norway allow shipping ore off the port of Narvik. The Swedes however were grumbling but didn't have any alternative.
Peace treaty signed the Great Powers observers left Scandinavia for other important duties.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 20, 2021 7:55:39 GMT
Like brothers: To some Scandinavians the Norwegians looked like able to walk on water following the peace treaty but the Norwegians didn't forget the help offered by the Danes nor the sacrifices shared in their short but bloody struggle for independence. Some clearheaded Norwegian officers well realized that the contribution of the Danish Navy in fending off the Swedish planned amphibious operation shouldn't be downplayed. Without that Norway would have come out of the conflict in much worse shape. Yielding command to the well trained Danish Navy officers had been a necessity in the situation of Norways struggle for life. That the Danes had kept the land contribution small was critized but also realized to be a necessity to deter any Swedish attack on Copenhagen or a German military demonstration in Jutland. The Danes just knew they couldn't walk on water but were fairly close the Norwegian officers well agreed.
As such it was only natural for Norway to ask Denmark for a mutual defence treaty to deter Sweden from any future adventures which of course would also be a strengthening of Denmarks position vis a vis Germany. This being something of a gamble Norwegian Premier Christian Michelsen realized and really too much to the benefit of Denmarks but it was imperative to secure Norwegian independence at the moment. If only the Russians had brought their house in order a little sooner to distract the Swedes' attention to the east; but then you cannot have all your wishes come true. A true neutrality the ultimate objective of Norway but in the present situation less had to suffice.
In the heat of the moment nothing seemed more appropriate or right to Danish Foreign Minister Raben-Leventzau or Primeminister I.C. Christensen; though the latter had designs on a rapprochement with Germany too and viewed the alliance as a lever in that potential conflict. The Schleswig question as always at the forefront of Danish politics.
With Germany still at odds with France the window of opportunity kept open and a formal treaty of mutual defensive assistance would be entered by Denmark and Norway. The teaty wasn't made public but the movement of Danish and Norwegian members of Government between Copenhagen and Kristiania/Oslo was telling to observers.
Then of course it was only two third rate powers joining up on a second rate so why care? Back to Morocco. The real deal! By 1906 and the conference of Algeciras ending on 7. April the window of opportunity closed for the time being.
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