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Post by american2006 on Feb 8, 2021 13:01:21 GMT
Something that Steve mentioned in an offhand manner that I decided to steal for humourous use elsewhere. It will work well with the Vamp Cow from The Far Side.  The concept is now something I'm going to use as the doings of an undead mastermind with a very twisted sense of humour. That sounds dark, but then again, it is going to be used in a very Dark Earth ... |
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 8, 2021 14:19:41 GMT
It is a more humourous edge to the overall setting, although a dark and twisted humour.
I'll add some more zombie related thoughts and discussion points here.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 9, 2021 6:41:47 GMT
A few follow up comments:
- A virus that breaks down certain parts of the brain is not quite zombies. It would be horrific, threatening and shocking, but it would be nominally within our framework of understanding. I’m not discounting it, as it does go along with some aspects of The Walking Dead, but it knocked out the whole brain prior to reanimation.
- Giving them the ability to think and fight at a level beyond the absolute basic presents a greater threat, certainly
- The issue with a mosquito base virus is that it should have showed up before The Outbreak
- My original issue is very much that they overwhelm conventional military forces that should be very adaptable to knocking out such a threat. I don’t think that needs to be a necessary feature of a good, original yet classically inspired and semi-realistic zombie timeline
- Transmission by bite is exactly what I’m thinking of
- The Amazon works very well as a base, particularly if it is shown the virus “jumps” due to rapacious deforestation; gives an interesting environmental subtext
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 9, 2021 10:13:45 GMT
A few follow up comments: - A virus that breaks down certain parts of the brain is not quite zombies. It would be horrific, threatening and shocking, but it would be nominally within our framework of understanding. I’m not discounting it, as it does go along with some aspects of The Walking Dead, but it knocked out the whole brain prior to reanimation. - Giving them the ability to think and fight at a level beyond the absolute basic presents a greater threat, certainly - The issue with a mosquito base virus is that it should have showed up before The Outbreak - My original issue is very much that they overwhelm conventional military forces that should be very adaptable to knocking out such a threat. I don’t think that needs to be a necessary feature of a good, original yet classically inspired and semi-realistic zombie timeline - Transmission by bite is exactly what I’m thinking of - The Amazon works very well as a base, particularly if it is shown the virus “jumps” due to rapacious deforestation; gives an interesting environmental subtext
With that last one it could be the Amazon, W Africa or SE Asia as unfortunately that's happening virtually everywhere. The last could be the most dangerous given the greater connectivity of the region with air links to so much of the world. A single infection at Singapore or in Malaya say could spread very rapidly with a decent incubation period.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 9, 2021 10:32:04 GMT
Indeed. The use of international air hubs as a disease vector is a common feature to many different scenarios.
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Post by american2006 on Feb 9, 2021 13:47:30 GMT
A few follow up comments: - A virus that breaks down certain parts of the brain is not quite zombies. It would be horrific, threatening and shocking, but it would be nominally within our framework of understanding. I’m not discounting it, as it does go along with some aspects of The Walking Dead, but it knocked out the whole brain prior to reanimation. - Giving them the ability to think and fight at a level beyond the absolute basic presents a greater threat, certainly - The issue with a mosquito base virus is that it should have showed up before The Outbreak - My original issue is very much that they overwhelm conventional military forces that should be very adaptable to knocking out such a threat. I don’t think that needs to be a necessary feature of a good, original yet classically inspired and semi-realistic zombie timeline - Transmission by bite is exactly what I’m thinking of - The Amazon works very well as a base, particularly if it is shown the virus “jumps” due to rapacious deforestation; gives an interesting environmental subtext Hmm, what if the virus where to be able to knock the entire brain and rewire it to a degree, reanimating portions of the brain but not all of it. I see what you mean about animal-spread diseases proving difficult to stop spreading before the event of Patient 0. With the environmental and Amazonian side of it, perhaps the virus originates from an animal hidden in the Amazon which bites the victim. If it must be a bloodbourne illness, then perhaps it can jump into domestic animals much like rabies. Overall, a pop culture Zombie would have immense trouble destroying civilization. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 9, 2021 15:58:43 GMT
I think you might be onto something, in the form of an animal virus that had previously been contained to a microclimate/isolated area and existing in ticks or other small insects. However, then we are in the realm of “strange viral infection from Contagion/Outbreak, but with some interesting side effects”, or essentially following the gosh-awful film version of World War Z.
That is going to be nasty, but will follow a contagion like response.
I’m willing to have a bit of hand waving/mystery viral origins for the beginning of a zombie plague, as how it is handled and it’s broader effects are the truly interesting parts.
Pop culture slow zombies would wreck a fair bit of havoc. Initially, people would not believe it, leading to an increase in the Z population and a rolling wave of panic. For much of the world, there isn’t the ready availability of firearms compared to the USA or some parts of the Middle East, so those sheltering in place would fall prey. In the developed world, food supply chains and power supply would break down, leaving survivors thoroughly out of their experiential comfort zone.
Conventional military forces would be able to rip through Z, absolutely, but would be subject to issues of logistics and limitations in many cases; after all, we live in a period of military retrenchment and greatly reduced supplies of armaments and ordnance. Once you’ve fired off your ammunition, your rifle is a club and you don’t really want to risk getting in club range of Z. There would be a large importance on holding choke points, establishing killing zones and adapting a military force that is very good at counter insurgency and various forms of hi tech warfare back to attritional killing with area effect weapons.
With the right strategy and tactics, Z can be beaten, but it will be a complex task.
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Post by James G on Apr 25, 2021 19:56:34 GMT
The notion of a zombie plague has cropped up across various forms of fiction over the last 50 years or so, ranging from the very, very silly to some thought provoking treatments. One feature that always raises my hackles is the huge ease that zombies brush aside conventional military forces yet fall prey to the Designated Heroic Plucky Band of Plucky Heroes, who typically lack training, resources, weapons and knowledge. This is both present and somewhat subverted in the decent World War Z novel. Apparently, heavy bombers, napalm/incendiaries and concentrated artillery aren’t effective or aren’t thought as viable. I know this often occurs for dramatic purposes, but I’d like to propose the challenge of a “realistic” zombie plague/war, perhaps with a look towards creating a cooperative timeline as a bit of fun. Any further thoughts or comments on the topic are welcome. I have written several zombie stories and abandoned many more. With reflection, I suffer from what I deem 'fear of audience shouting ASB' when I am writing the story. Therefore, without meaning to, I try to make everything as realistic as possible so that it is all theoretically possible... ...but zombies are theoretically possible! I end up going in circles and not getting where I want to. Success, I think, in a zombie story is having the authorities drink lead paint by the gallon without explaining why, hence don't show them, and just get on with the flesh chewing. Plucky band of heroes has never been my favourite take on zombie stories either: it just doesn't work if all of those with training have failed. And there I go again. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Apr 26, 2021 4:38:51 GMT
The notion of a zombie plague has cropped up across various forms of fiction over the last 50 years or so, ranging from the very, very silly to some thought provoking treatments. One feature that always raises my hackles is the huge ease that zombies brush aside conventional military forces yet fall prey to the Designated Heroic Plucky Band of Plucky Heroes, who typically lack training, resources, weapons and knowledge. This is both present and somewhat subverted in the decent World War Z novel. Apparently, heavy bombers, napalm/incendiaries and concentrated artillery aren’t effective or aren’t thought as viable. I know this often occurs for dramatic purposes, but I’d like to propose the challenge of a “realistic” zombie plague/war, perhaps with a look towards creating a cooperative timeline as a bit of fun. Any further thoughts or comments on the topic are welcome. I have written several zombie stories and abandoned many more. With reflection, I suffer from what I deem 'fear of audience shouting ASB' when I am writing the story. Therefore, without meaning to, I try to make everything as realistic as possible so that it is all theoretically possible... ...but zombies are theoretically possible! I end up going in circles and not getting where I want to. Success, I think, in a zombie story is having the authorities drink lead paint by the gallon without explaining why, hence don't show them, and just get on with the flesh chewing. Plucky band of heroes has never been my favourite take on zombie stories either: it just doesn't work if all of those with training have failed. And there I go again. I hope you will continue your other World War Z story. I am a fan of it. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 26, 2021 18:54:21 GMT
The notion of a zombie plague has cropped up across various forms of fiction over the last 50 years or so, ranging from the very, very silly to some thought provoking treatments. One feature that always raises my hackles is the huge ease that zombies brush aside conventional military forces yet fall prey to the Designated Heroic Plucky Band of Plucky Heroes, who typically lack training, resources, weapons and knowledge. This is both present and somewhat subverted in the decent World War Z novel. Apparently, heavy bombers, napalm/incendiaries and concentrated artillery aren’t effective or aren’t thought as viable. I know this often occurs for dramatic purposes, but I’d like to propose the challenge of a “realistic” zombie plague/war, perhaps with a look towards creating a cooperative timeline as a bit of fun. Any further thoughts or comments on the topic are welcome. I have written several zombie stories and abandoned many more. With reflection, I suffer from what I deem 'fear of audience shouting ASB' when I am writing the story. Therefore, without meaning to, I try to make everything as realistic as possible so that it is all theoretically possible... ...but zombies are theoretically possible! I end up going in circles and not getting where I want to. Success, I think, in a zombie story is having the authorities drink lead paint by the gallon without explaining why, hence don't show them, and just get on with the flesh chewing. Plucky band of heroes has never been my favourite take on zombie stories either: it just doesn't work if all of those with training have failed. And there I go again. James, I think one of the dangers when dealing with the fantastical is eschewing what it is, or trying for hyper realism to balance out its nature. There is a fine line between doing that and simply creating a viable and believable world. Sometimes, we’ve just got to let it ride. Zombies are theoretically possible, but if the possible version is used, then they can be defeated in short order by a halfway competent force. The way to get around it in my view is to shove a spanner in the works and prevent the authorities from reacting to begin with. Paralysis is needed, but not from lead paint. It needs to come from horror. I mentioned upthread the cognitive dissonance that would hit a great many in the halls of power if their assumptions were thrown out the window. The same is true for scientists and professionals. If you make the supernatural threat something that plays by our rules, but simply in a different way, then it is just a matter of assembling a jigsaw. But what if it violates the rules of nature, science and physics as we know it? That is enough to shake people and give the counterattack pause. We live in a hyper rational era - I often muse on the differences between now and the 70s, that heyday of alternate theories and mysteries. Humans fear what they can’t understand. Thus, the biggest threat isn’t a natural predator turned up to 11, or a theoretically possible model of the zombie. It is a genuine monster, a supernatural presence, a use of a power beyond us, or something completely unnatural. A menagerie of big cats loose on an American street is a logistical problem; a werewolf attack is a horror that should not be. My idea, and I don’t think it is the only one, is that there is a mixture of misinterpretation, confronting a separate threat and denial that can create the circumstances for a zombie apocalypse: A pandemic erupts, seemingly out of nowhere, causing sickness, but not death. Governments react to that, but then the dying and reanimating springs on them, fast. Repositioning forces and sending them into action takes a bit of time, but this plague gets inside the OODA loop. Some areas and whole countries are overrun. Whilst mankind rallies and fights back, our story finds an unlikely band of survivors trapped behind the front line. They need to fight their way to safety in this new Great War for Humanity. Will they survive this... Red Dawn? I know, cheesy choice of imagery, but it aims to balance the competing priorities and needs of this genre. |
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Post by jjohnson on Jun 12, 2021 16:55:00 GMT
Steve, 1.) That is their big issue. They don’t make sense. That would be terrifying for a modern, scientific civilisation that thought it had all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. It can account for some of the general organisational paralysis that some governments typically experience in the face of a zombie plague. We live in a world where bean counting defence mandarins don’t really take into account that aircraft or ships might be lost in a real war; something from literally beyond the pale would be difficult to adapt to, The less said about the film adaption of World War Z the better. But this gives us perhaps our first point: Zombies must have some degree of semi-logical “rules”, even if those rules don’t make sense to our understanding. 2.) A very good point on the virus, which makes the animal role less likely. I do reserve the idea of zombie cows for Dark Earth purposes, though... 3.) In such stories, logic is forced to become a cheap harlot for drama. It makes for a more interesting visual story, as we as viewers tend to prefer a small group of characters we can get to know and identify with through the story. In a timeline or history, such as the written version of World War Z, there is the capacity to take a more measured view. Therefore, thus far: - Zombies need to have rules, even though they may not be the ones we’re used to - Slower/shambling zombies require fewer leaps in logic - A viral origin is possible, but not really from an animal crossover - Undead - Flesh consumption driven by insatiable hunger and a need to spread the virus/origin - Headshots or destruction of the brain destroy them, as does total physical destruction - Lack of intelligence or consciousness I’d add to that: - Initial outbreaks hard to suppress due to disbelief, some degree of incubation period for non fatal bites and a general unreadiness to face the inconceivable - Total social collapse as depicted in some previous zombie films might need a rethink after the events of the past year If there is interest, I’d say the first step is fleshing out the concept of a timeline, then building one up from various ideas and contributions; something similar to the earliest days of the Red Dawn + 20 verse on AH.com. One thing zombie movies don't generally discuss is how the zombies survive over a year as 'undead.' With excess heat there would be bacterial bloating and the bodies of the zombies would be eaten up, and with excess cold they would freeze and become immobile, and whether scavengers can be infected when they inevitably feed on the corpses, as the 'stench of death' would attract flies to the shambling zombies. A body breaks down at a known rate, about 2 months in the sun, and a year underground. But other than that, a zombie timeline would be very fascinating to see. Whoever goes for it, I hope you have fun writing it! It's a great exercise in 'what if'. (no sarcasm or snark intended here). |
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Post by jjohnson on Jun 12, 2021 16:56:30 GMT
A few follow up comments: - A virus that breaks down certain parts of the brain is not quite zombies. It would be horrific, threatening and shocking, but it would be nominally within our framework of understanding. I’m not discounting it, as it does go along with some aspects of The Walking Dead, but it knocked out the whole brain prior to reanimation. - Giving them the ability to think and fight at a level beyond the absolute basic presents a greater threat, certainly - The issue with a mosquito base virus is that it should have showed up before The Outbreak - My original issue is very much that they overwhelm conventional military forces that should be very adaptable to knocking out such a threat. I don’t think that needs to be a necessary feature of a good, original yet classically inspired and semi-realistic zombie timeline - Transmission by bite is exactly what I’m thinking of - The Amazon works very well as a base, particularly if it is shown the virus “jumps” due to rapacious deforestation; gives an interesting environmental subtext For mosquitos, Bill Gates has been mentioned as saying he wants to genetically engineer mosquitos to vaccinate people, so maybe that experiment escapes and starts the zombie apocalypse? |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jun 12, 2021 16:58:57 GMT
Steve, 1.) That is their big issue. They don’t make sense. That would be terrifying for a modern, scientific civilisation that thought it had all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. It can account for some of the general organisational paralysis that some governments typically experience in the face of a zombie plague. We live in a world where bean counting defence mandarins don’t really take into account that aircraft or ships might be lost in a real war; something from literally beyond the pale would be difficult to adapt to, The less said about the film adaption of World War Z the better. But this gives us perhaps our first point: Zombies must have some degree of semi-logical “rules”, even if those rules don’t make sense to our understanding. 2.) A very good point on the virus, which makes the animal role less likely. I do reserve the idea of zombie cows for Dark Earth purposes, though... 3.) In such stories, logic is forced to become a cheap harlot for drama. It makes for a more interesting visual story, as we as viewers tend to prefer a small group of characters we can get to know and identify with through the story. In a timeline or history, such as the written version of World War Z, there is the capacity to take a more measured view. Therefore, thus far: - Zombies need to have rules, even though they may not be the ones we’re used to - Slower/shambling zombies require fewer leaps in logic - A viral origin is possible, but not really from an animal crossover - Undead - Flesh consumption driven by insatiable hunger and a need to spread the virus/origin - Headshots or destruction of the brain destroy them, as does total physical destruction - Lack of intelligence or consciousness I’d add to that: - Initial outbreaks hard to suppress due to disbelief, some degree of incubation period for non fatal bites and a general unreadiness to face the inconceivable - Total social collapse as depicted in some previous zombie films might need a rethink after the events of the past year If there is interest, I’d say the first step is fleshing out the concept of a timeline, then building one up from various ideas and contributions; something similar to the earliest days of the Red Dawn + 20 verse on AH.com. One thing zombie movies don't generally discuss is how the zombies survive over a year as 'undead.' With excess heat there would be bacterial bloating and the bodies of the zombies would be eaten up, and with excess cold they would freeze and become immobile, and whether scavengers can be infected when they inevitably feed on the corpses, as the 'stench of death' would attract flies to the shambling zombies. A body breaks down at a known rate, about 2 months in the sun, and a year underground. But other than that, a zombie timeline would be very fascinating to see. Whoever goes for it, I hope you have fun writing it! It's a great exercise in 'what if'. (no sarcasm or snark intended here). That's for story purposes. If zombie movies suddenly follow the laws of science, then there won't be a story at all. On the other hand, I have made some zombie scenarios on this forum so feel free to check them out: |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 13, 2021 6:03:29 GMT
Steve, 1.) That is their big issue. They don’t make sense. That would be terrifying for a modern, scientific civilisation that thought it had all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. It can account for some of the general organisational paralysis that some governments typically experience in the face of a zombie plague. We live in a world where bean counting defence mandarins don’t really take into account that aircraft or ships might be lost in a real war; something from literally beyond the pale would be difficult to adapt to, The less said about the film adaption of World War Z the better. But this gives us perhaps our first point: Zombies must have some degree of semi-logical “rules”, even if those rules don’t make sense to our understanding. 2.) A very good point on the virus, which makes the animal role less likely. I do reserve the idea of zombie cows for Dark Earth purposes, though... 3.) In such stories, logic is forced to become a cheap harlot for drama. It makes for a more interesting visual story, as we as viewers tend to prefer a small group of characters we can get to know and identify with through the story. In a timeline or history, such as the written version of World War Z, there is the capacity to take a more measured view. Therefore, thus far: - Zombies need to have rules, even though they may not be the ones we’re used to - Slower/shambling zombies require fewer leaps in logic - A viral origin is possible, but not really from an animal crossover - Undead - Flesh consumption driven by insatiable hunger and a need to spread the virus/origin - Headshots or destruction of the brain destroy them, as does total physical destruction - Lack of intelligence or consciousness I’d add to that: - Initial outbreaks hard to suppress due to disbelief, some degree of incubation period for non fatal bites and a general unreadiness to face the inconceivable - Total social collapse as depicted in some previous zombie films might need a rethink after the events of the past year If there is interest, I’d say the first step is fleshing out the concept of a timeline, then building one up from various ideas and contributions; something similar to the earliest days of the Red Dawn + 20 verse on AH.com. One thing zombie movies don't generally discuss is how the zombies survive over a year as 'undead.' With excess heat there would be bacterial bloating and the bodies of the zombies would be eaten up, and with excess cold they would freeze and become immobile, and whether scavengers can be infected when they inevitably feed on the corpses, as the 'stench of death' would attract flies to the shambling zombies. A body breaks down at a known rate, about 2 months in the sun, and a year underground. But other than that, a zombie timeline would be very fascinating to see. Whoever goes for it, I hope you have fun writing it! It's a great exercise in 'what if'. (no sarcasm or snark intended here). The physiology of zombies doesn't make a lick of sense in any of the purely 'scientific' zombie stories. It takes that element I mentioned earlier - something not working as it should and breaking the established rules. Not being able to explain something in a manner that we can control makes something far, far more frightening. |
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ukron
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Post by ukron on Jun 13, 2021 14:38:17 GMT
Something I never truly understand, in most zombie movies or video games, is the total lack of quick understanding of how zombies are "working": it would take only some minutes for a civilian to understand that the head is the "absolute" target (Shaun of the Dead is a clear instance).
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