stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 17, 2021 15:55:34 GMT
'2050 US And China To 1950'. Can't predict the specifics of what'll happen or how the two will stack up against one another by then, but my first instinct tells me the Chinese will overtake Soviet Russia as hegemon of the Red Bloc and be in a far better position to dictate terms to Stalin than Mao ever was.
Provided there's not been a total melt down of some form that would definitely be the case. Even if their had some ruinous civil strife simple technological change will mean 2050 China would be way ahead of 1950's USSR - which will make Stalin less than happy. It would really require either a shattering war or major ecological collapse for that not to be the case. Ditto with the 2050 USA dominating the world even more than OTL 1950 USA did.
Are we assuming that both nations occupy the same areas as 2021 USA and China? Which would mean that 1950 Tibet would be gone as well unless by 2050 China has lost it. More likely possibly its likely to have additional territory. - Just realised it will assumable have Hong Kong and Macau which would be an issue with the 1950 world. Don't think there's been a major geographical change in the US between 1950 and 2021 - other than giving up the Panama Canal Zone - but having Alaska and Hawaii as states would be a small surprise to the 1950 world.
Of course, if its 1st Jan each year we're coming up towards the Korean war so would that still occur? If so China could be in a much stronger position to aid NK compared to OTL with a hell of a lot of high tech weaponry probably as opposed to masses of grunts.
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 21, 2021 17:18:40 GMT
Are we assuming that both nations occupy the same areas as 2021 USA and China? Which would mean that 1950 Tibet would be gone as well unless by 2050 China has lost it. More likely possibly its likely to have additional territory. - Just realised it will assumable have Hong Kong and Macau which would be an issue with the 1950 world. Don't think there's been a major geographical change in the US between 1950 and 2021 - other than giving up the Panama Canal Zone - but having Alaska and Hawaii as states would be a small surprise to the 1950 world. Yes, I assume they're geographically the same as their 2021 counterparts. China, as you say, may be acting on its ambitions to absorb more territory by then (though this can be solved by only ISOT-ing the 2050 lands they occupy now). Of course, if its 1st Jan each year we're coming up towards the Korean war so would that still occur? If so China could be in a much stronger position to aid NK compared to OTL with a hell of a lot of high tech weaponry probably as opposed to masses of grunts. Probably, assuming China is still Red and keen on expanding its influence as far and wide as possible. The US, of course, will move to counter that (I assume whatever newfangled wonder-weapons it brings to the table would cancel out Chinese technological uplift). Granted, exact military capabilities by ~2050 are harder to model, so we're probably restricted to some blend of extrapolating from current trends (i.e. growing drone usage and space potentially becoming a new theater of war) and semi-impressionistic guesswork.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 22, 2021 16:44:09 GMT
Are we assuming that both nations occupy the same areas as 2021 USA and China? Which would mean that 1950 Tibet would be gone as well unless by 2050 China has lost it. More likely possibly its likely to have additional territory. - Just realised it will assumable have Hong Kong and Macau which would be an issue with the 1950 world. Don't think there's been a major geographical change in the US between 1950 and 2021 - other than giving up the Panama Canal Zone - but having Alaska and Hawaii as states would be a small surprise to the 1950 world. Yes, I assume they're geographically the same as their 2021 counterparts. China, as you say, may be acting on its ambitions to absorb more territory by then (though this can be solved by only ISOT-ing the 2050 lands they occupy now). Of course, if its 1st Jan each year we're coming up towards the Korean war so would that still occur? If so China could be in a much stronger position to aid NK compared to OTL with a hell of a lot of high tech weaponry probably as opposed to masses of grunts. Probably, assuming China is still Red and keen on expanding its influence as far and wide as possible. The US, of course, will move to counter that (I assume whatever newfangled wonder-weapons it brings to the table would cancel out Chinese technological uplift). Granted, exact military capabilities by ~2050 are harder to model, so we're probably restricted to some blend of extrapolating from current trends (i.e. growing drone usage and space potentially becoming a new theater of war) and semi-impressionistic guesswork.
Have to point out that this assumes that both nations are in a similar tech state in ~30 years time. Which may not be the case.
Just as with China and the USSR a lot will depend on 2050 US's relations with the rest of the world. It could have significantly different friends/enemies/etc to in 2021.
Steve
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 22, 2021 22:16:22 GMT
Have to point out that this assumes that both nations are in a similar tech state in ~30 years time. Which may not be the case.
Just as with China and the USSR a lot will depend on 2050 US's relations with the rest of the world. It could have significantly different friends/enemies/etc to in 2021. True. ‘2019 EU (Sans Greece and Italy) To 19 AD’.
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Post by stevep on Nov 23, 2021 9:49:28 GMT
Have to point out that this assumes that both nations are in a similar tech state in ~30 years time. Which may not be the case.
Just as with China and the USSR a lot will depend on 2050 US's relations with the rest of the world. It could have significantly different friends/enemies/etc to in 2021. True. ‘2019 EU (Sans Greece and Italy) To 19 AD’.
I was thinking this was a larger version of your assorted Greeks and Romans brought to the present day but with the EU, including Britain I assume, being sent back a number of things are significantly different. Both in that the up-timers are now somewhat isolated and that of course at this time the Roman empire will still consist of a lot more than Italy and OTL Greece with N Africa and much of the Middle East as well as parts of the Balkans not in the EU so its going to be fairly chaotic period for both sides.
Also going to be interesting for Christians as they have lost some of their core territories but how they react to Jesus still being alive - and him quite possibly to finding out what sort of religion develops from his teachings. Similarly for the Jews there is still a substantial Jewish population in the empire and the 2nd Temple is still in existence. For Muslims how they respond to Mecca being a significant Pagan religious centre and them now being a pretty small group in the world's population.
For the EU there's going to be a lot of disruption with all imports from other countries cut off which is going to probably mean a fair bit of technological recession in a number of areas, probably for a couple of decades. Also they have to face unstable borders, whether with the empire to the south and east or assorted 'barbarian' states to the east. Plus issues for both sides in terms of disease.
Would the ISOT include overseas territories of some of the powers, such as the French Caribbean and Pacific colonies or even say Gibraltar and the Falklands? Gib and the British military bases on Cyprus would be distinctly isolated at least for a while and the Romans are unlikely to be happy with their presence.
Mind you the Romans have just had a hell of a shock with the loss of a lot of territory and probably the bulk of their military given the garrisons on the Rhine and most of the Danube will have gone. Not to mention finding a magical super-power to their north which is very hostile to some elements of their culture, such as the use of slavery and gladiatorial games.
Wondering why you picked that date? Its early in the reign of Tiberius but according to wiki AD_19 there doesn't seem might dramatic happening. The expulsion of Egyptians from Rome by the empire and the death of the general Germanicus Julius Caesar in Syria, which might be averted here as its not until October. If he lives and survives the snake pit of Roman politics, and the empire survives, he might be a future emperor. On the other hand he is the father of the future emperor Caligula!
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 21, 2021 16:49:53 GMT
Wondering why you picked that date? Its early in the reign of Tiberius but according to wiki AD_19 there doesn't seem might dramatic happening. The expulsion of Egyptians from Rome by the empire and the death of the general Germanicus Julius Caesar in Syria, which might be averted here as its not until October. If he lives and survives the snake pit of Roman politics, and the empire survives, he might be a future emperor. On the other hand he is the father of the future emperor Caligula! Think it was just because I like having a nice, round number of years separating uptimer and downtimer societies. Nothing more than that, I think. ' ToRT Soviet Union To AANW'. Quoting myself from the thread I posted on the premise: {My Predictions}Thanks to a decisive moment of clarity allowing them to triumph at Stalingrad and force a power struggle turned total Soviet surrender shortly thereafter, CalBear’s Anglo/American-Nazi War (also available on Amazon as Festung Europa) chronicles a world in which the Third Reich takes over continental Europe and enact a fifteen-year reign of terror that makes the OTL Holocaust look like dress rehearsal. With Generalplan Ost obliterating Eastern Europe and a hellish second act in the 1950s, the Nazis—despite losing in even more permanent and speculator fashion than IOTL—manage to leave a far bloodier legacy that removes all doubt that they were the most evil regime to have ever walked the Earth.
An unsurprising outcome, but one that—for a number of reasons—is far from guaranteed ITTL. So, as an idea first put forth by @emperor of Pennsylvania elsewhere, the Soviet Union from Napoleon IV’s Twilight of the Red Tsar TL suddenly materializes in the world of AANW on January 1st, 1954. Joseph Stalin, in his deranged and unholy glory after having survived the stroke that killed him IOTL, has been brought along for the ride, and readier than ever to finally match the Nazis in the Evil Department. So, with Stalinist Russia back in the ring and more than bloodthirsty enough to “return the favor” in true Stalinist fashion, what happens next?
Personally, I’ve laid out some initial predictions under the “Spoiler” section below, though there’s a) much could be missing and b) lots more still for others to contribute here. With that out of the way, let us proceed.
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Once the dust settles and he's told what has happened, Stalin is shocked and livid at the Nazis not only being active again, but also that they were in the process of destroying Eastern Europe so thoroughly ITTL. He might, in his demented state, also equate the Reich existing with Hitler being alive (which no one will correct him on, if they value their lives and keeping all their limbs intact).
After arresting and executing the poor souls who deliver the news--along with their friends, families, and associates at least getting a few decades in the Gulag--he calls an immediate meeting and plans how to punish Germany and its allies as brutally as possible. Soon, he gets a "delightful sadistic" idea for how to "return the favor."
Diplomacy with the Reich goes about as well as you'd expect. Maybe even worse, such as the MGB kidnapping some German diplomats and/or dragging Nazi inmates out of their Gulags to be tortured, interrogated, and publicly questioned in broadcast show trials before being gruesomely executed in a dark cellar in Siberia. The purpose of such an act would be three-fold: a) to drum up a pro-war frenzy among the Soviet people, b) to show the W/Allies how bad the Nazis really are, and c) to set a trap the Reich would be all too willing to walk into.
The natural follow-up to the latter would be an un-serious peace proposal, in which the Nazis agree to an immediate and total surrender, in exchange for the Soviets responding with "forgiveness" and "clemency" in the occupational phase. Obviously, Himmler refuses, and likely goes off on a psychotic rant about how the "Slavic subhumans" have no right to tell him what do do and must submit to "Aryan domination." And thus, Stalin's trap is sprung, giving the USSR a mandate to declare war and give as good as their AANW counterparts got with new fire.
Unmitigated disaster notwithstanding, I'm not too certain of what follows after, though I'd be willing to hedge a few guesses involving a series of mass-deportations and continuation of the Soviet Pogrom at home, and genocidal atrocities and barrage after barrage of "atomic surprises" abroad, as the USSR cuts a bloody swath of its own in its march through Europe. Using Stalin's unhinged reaction to Mao's insubordination as a benchmark, I can easily visualize him dropping his first hydrogen bomb on a city other than Berlin--perhaps on an Italian city rather than a German one--just to terrify the Nazi leadership, get semi-sane members to oust Himmler, and agree to a surrender. Then going "Psyche!" and unleashing dozens upon dozens more hydrogen bombs, before imposing his own, more nuke-happy version of Generalplan Ost onto the defeated and disemboweled Third Reich.
War with the W/Allies begins. Only, instead of liberating Europe from the Nazi jackboot, they'll be freeing it from Stalin's iron grip at similar--or perhaps even greater--cost than IOTL, thanks to Soviet nukes.
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 23, 2021 20:48:02 GMT
‘Carthage with the Size and Trade Networks of the British Empire’.
ASB hand-waves transoceanic sailing and other logistical concerns, as well as allowing thread participants to propose different “configurations” of territory they suddenly gain (so long as it adds up to roughly a quarter of the world).
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 24, 2021 14:03:42 GMT
‘Carthage with the Size and Trade Networks of the British Empire’. ASB hand-waves transoceanic sailing and other logistical concerns, as well as allowing thread participants to propose different “configurations” of territory they suddenly gain (so long as it adds up to roughly a quarter of the world).
Well they would obvious dominate the Med, including some long forgotten ruins on the Tiber I expect. Depending on how things develop as to whether they have a large empire in the Americas, possibly similar to or larger than Spain at its height or how much will be in Asia and southern/eastern Africa, That would probably depend on how soon they get control of Egypt - which I suspect will be a must - and a canal to access eastern oceans. They would need higher technology than classical times to hold such an empire together, probably at least ~1500AD tech. That could lead to an empire in at least parts of India and the Indo-China area although it could mean a lot of influence in China rather than direct rule. Or China could be the primary great power rival to them.
As a primary naval and merchant power the regions their least likely to have influence, let alone control of is probably continental interiors, most especially for Eurasia so that could well contain another powerful rival state. Possibly somewhere in eastern Europe and parts of Iran/N India might be contested regions with Carthage.
Anyway an interesting idea.
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 24, 2021 16:17:04 GMT
‘Carthage with the Size and Trade Networks of the British Empire’. ASB hand-waves transoceanic sailing and other logistical concerns, as well as allowing thread participants to propose different “configurations” of territory they suddenly gain (so long as it adds up to roughly a quarter of the world).
Well they would obvious dominate the Med, including some long forgotten ruins on the Tiber I expect. Depending on how things develop as to whether they have a large empire in the Americas, possibly similar to or larger than Spain at its height or how much will be in Asia and southern/eastern Africa, That would probably depend on how soon they get control of Egypt - which I suspect will be a must - and a canal to access eastern oceans. They would need higher technology than classical times to hold such an empire together, probably at least ~1500AD tech. That could lead to an empire in at least parts of India and the Indo-China area although it could mean a lot of influence in China rather than direct rule. Or China could be the primary great power rival to them.
As a primary naval and merchant power the regions their least likely to have influence, let alone control of is probably continental interiors, most especially for Eurasia so that could well contain another powerful rival state. Possibly somewhere in eastern Europe and parts of Iran/N India might be contested regions with Carthage.
Anyway an interesting idea.
Thanks! With Carthage controlling the Med and fielding the largest empire in history, I assume Rome's relegated to second fiddle and largely restricted to continental Europe? ‘2011 US And Russia To 1811’. ASB also forbids both from invading Europe, though they may repel downtimers attempting to do the same to them and may grab up non-European lands. (In which case, I assume the US may want Canada, depending on how well diplomacy with Britain goes. There's also no prohibition against waging proxy wars or beneficial "exchanges" with 1811 nations, so make of that what you will.)
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575
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Post by 575 on Dec 25, 2021 8:57:15 GMT
True. ‘2019 EU (Sans Greece and Italy) To 19 AD’.
I was thinking this was a larger version of your assorted Greeks and Romans brought to the present day but with the EU, including Britain I assume, being sent back a number of things are significantly different. Both in that the up-timers are now somewhat isolated and that of course at this time the Roman empire will still consist of a lot more than Italy and OTL Greece with N Africa and much of the Middle East as well as parts of the Balkans not in the EU so its going to be fairly chaotic period for both sides.
Also going to be interesting for Christians as they have lost some of their core territories but how they react to Jesus still being alive - and him quite possibly to finding out what sort of religion develops from his teachings. Similarly for the Jews there is still a substantial Jewish population in the empire and the 2nd Temple is still in existence. For Muslims how they respond to Mecca being a significant Pagan religious centre and them now being a pretty small group in the world's population.
For the EU there's going to be a lot of disruption with all imports from other countries cut off which is going to probably mean a fair bit of technological recession in a number of areas, probably for a couple of decades. Also they have to face unstable borders, whether with the empire to the south and east or assorted 'barbarian' states to the east. Plus issues for both sides in terms of disease.
Would the ISOT include overseas territories of some of the powers, such as the French Caribbean and Pacific colonies or even say Gibraltar and the Falklands? Gib and the British military bases on Cyprus would be distinctly isolated at least for a while and the Romans are unlikely to be happy with their presence.
Mind you the Romans have just had a hell of a shock with the loss of a lot of territory and probably the bulk of their military given the garrisons on the Rhine and most of the Danube will have gone. Not to mention finding a magical super-power to their north which is very hostile to some elements of their culture, such as the use of slavery and gladiatorial games.
Wondering why you picked that date? Its early in the reign of Tiberius but according to wiki AD_19 there doesn't seem might dramatic happening. The expulsion of Egyptians from Rome by the empire and the death of the general Germanicus Julius Caesar in Syria, which might be averted here as its not until October. If he lives and survives the snake pit of Roman politics, and the empire survives, he might be a future emperor. On the other hand he is the father of the future emperor Caligula! Allways look at the bright side - we won't have to pay out the Italians and Greeks any more though will of course miss the culinary imports and sunny beaches but have those too in Bulgaria, Spain and Portugal et le Midi..
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575
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Post by 575 on Dec 25, 2021 8:58:16 GMT
Wondering why you picked that date? Its early in the reign of Tiberius but according to wiki AD_19 there doesn't seem might dramatic happening. The expulsion of Egyptians from Rome by the empire and the death of the general Germanicus Julius Caesar in Syria, which might be averted here as its not until October. If he lives and survives the snake pit of Roman politics, and the empire survives, he might be a future emperor. On the other hand he is the father of the future emperor Caligula! Think it was just because I like having a nice, round number of years separating uptimer and downtimer societies. Nothing more than that, I think. ' ToRT Soviet Union To AANW'. Quoting myself from the thread I posted on the premise: {My Predictions}Thanks to a decisive moment of clarity allowing them to triumph at Stalingrad and force a power struggle turned total Soviet surrender shortly thereafter, CalBear’s Anglo/American-Nazi War (also available on Amazon as Festung Europa) chronicles a world in which the Third Reich takes over continental Europe and enact a fifteen-year reign of terror that makes the OTL Holocaust look like dress rehearsal. With Generalplan Ost obliterating Eastern Europe and a hellish second act in the 1950s, the Nazis—despite losing in even more permanent and speculator fashion than IOTL—manage to leave a far bloodier legacy that removes all doubt that they were the most evil regime to have ever walked the Earth.
An unsurprising outcome, but one that—for a number of reasons—is far from guaranteed ITTL. So, as an idea first put forth by @emperor of Pennsylvania elsewhere, the Soviet Union from Napoleon IV’s Twilight of the Red Tsar TL suddenly materializes in the world of AANW on January 1st, 1954. Joseph Stalin, in his deranged and unholy glory after having survived the stroke that killed him IOTL, has been brought along for the ride, and readier than ever to finally match the Nazis in the Evil Department. So, with Stalinist Russia back in the ring and more than bloodthirsty enough to “return the favor” in true Stalinist fashion, what happens next?
Personally, I’ve laid out some initial predictions under the “Spoiler” section below, though there’s a) much could be missing and b) lots more still for others to contribute here. With that out of the way, let us proceed.
-----
Once the dust settles and he's told what has happened, Stalin is shocked and livid at the Nazis not only being active again, but also that they were in the process of destroying Eastern Europe so thoroughly ITTL. He might, in his demented state, also equate the Reich existing with Hitler being alive (which no one will correct him on, if they value their lives and keeping all their limbs intact).
After arresting and executing the poor souls who deliver the news--along with their friends, families, and associates at least getting a few decades in the Gulag--he calls an immediate meeting and plans how to punish Germany and its allies as brutally as possible. Soon, he gets a "delightful sadistic" idea for how to "return the favor."
Diplomacy with the Reich goes about as well as you'd expect. Maybe even worse, such as the MGB kidnapping some German diplomats and/or dragging Nazi inmates out of their Gulags to be tortured, interrogated, and publicly questioned in broadcast show trials before being gruesomely executed in a dark cellar in Siberia. The purpose of such an act would be three-fold: a) to drum up a pro-war frenzy among the Soviet people, b) to show the W/Allies how bad the Nazis really are, and c) to set a trap the Reich would be all too willing to walk into.
The natural follow-up to the latter would be an un-serious peace proposal, in which the Nazis agree to an immediate and total surrender, in exchange for the Soviets responding with "forgiveness" and "clemency" in the occupational phase. Obviously, Himmler refuses, and likely goes off on a psychotic rant about how the "Slavic subhumans" have no right to tell him what do do and must submit to "Aryan domination." And thus, Stalin's trap is sprung, giving the USSR a mandate to declare war and give as good as their AANW counterparts got with new fire.
Unmitigated disaster notwithstanding, I'm not too certain of what follows after, though I'd be willing to hedge a few guesses involving a series of mass-deportations and continuation of the Soviet Pogrom at home, and genocidal atrocities and barrage after barrage of "atomic surprises" abroad, as the USSR cuts a bloody swath of its own in its march through Europe. Using Stalin's unhinged reaction to Mao's insubordination as a benchmark, I can easily visualize him dropping his first hydrogen bomb on a city other than Berlin--perhaps on an Italian city rather than a German one--just to terrify the Nazi leadership, get semi-sane members to oust Himmler, and agree to a surrender. Then going "Psyche!" and unleashing dozens upon dozens more hydrogen bombs, before imposing his own, more nuke-happy version of Generalplan Ost onto the defeated and disemboweled Third Reich.
War with the W/Allies begins. Only, instead of liberating Europe from the Nazi jackboot, they'll be freeing it from Stalin's iron grip at similar--or perhaps even greater--cost than IOTL, thanks to Soviet nukes. Pre-covid-19 I gather?
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 25, 2021 9:20:17 GMT
Think it was just because I like having a nice, round number of years separating uptimer and downtimer societies. Nothing more than that, I think. ' ToRT Soviet Union To AANW'. Quoting myself from the thread I posted on the premise: {My Predictions}Thanks to a decisive moment of clarity allowing them to triumph at Stalingrad and force a power struggle turned total Soviet surrender shortly thereafter, CalBear’s Anglo/American-Nazi War (also available on Amazon as Festung Europa) chronicles a world in which the Third Reich takes over continental Europe and enact a fifteen-year reign of terror that makes the OTL Holocaust look like dress rehearsal. With Generalplan Ost obliterating Eastern Europe and a hellish second act in the 1950s, the Nazis—despite losing in even more permanent and speculator fashion than IOTL—manage to leave a far bloodier legacy that removes all doubt that they were the most evil regime to have ever walked the Earth.
An unsurprising outcome, but one that—for a number of reasons—is far from guaranteed ITTL. So, as an idea first put forth by @emperor of Pennsylvania elsewhere, the Soviet Union from Napoleon IV’s Twilight of the Red Tsar TL suddenly materializes in the world of AANW on January 1st, 1954. Joseph Stalin, in his deranged and unholy glory after having survived the stroke that killed him IOTL, has been brought along for the ride, and readier than ever to finally match the Nazis in the Evil Department. So, with Stalinist Russia back in the ring and more than bloodthirsty enough to “return the favor” in true Stalinist fashion, what happens next?
Personally, I’ve laid out some initial predictions under the “Spoiler” section below, though there’s a) much could be missing and b) lots more still for others to contribute here. With that out of the way, let us proceed.
-----
Once the dust settles and he's told what has happened, Stalin is shocked and livid at the Nazis not only being active again, but also that they were in the process of destroying Eastern Europe so thoroughly ITTL. He might, in his demented state, also equate the Reich existing with Hitler being alive (which no one will correct him on, if they value their lives and keeping all their limbs intact).
After arresting and executing the poor souls who deliver the news--along with their friends, families, and associates at least getting a few decades in the Gulag--he calls an immediate meeting and plans how to punish Germany and its allies as brutally as possible. Soon, he gets a "delightful sadistic" idea for how to "return the favor."
Diplomacy with the Reich goes about as well as you'd expect. Maybe even worse, such as the MGB kidnapping some German diplomats and/or dragging Nazi inmates out of their Gulags to be tortured, interrogated, and publicly questioned in broadcast show trials before being gruesomely executed in a dark cellar in Siberia. The purpose of such an act would be three-fold: a) to drum up a pro-war frenzy among the Soviet people, b) to show the W/Allies how bad the Nazis really are, and c) to set a trap the Reich would be all too willing to walk into.
The natural follow-up to the latter would be an un-serious peace proposal, in which the Nazis agree to an immediate and total surrender, in exchange for the Soviets responding with "forgiveness" and "clemency" in the occupational phase. Obviously, Himmler refuses, and likely goes off on a psychotic rant about how the "Slavic subhumans" have no right to tell him what do do and must submit to "Aryan domination." And thus, Stalin's trap is sprung, giving the USSR a mandate to declare war and give as good as their AANW counterparts got with new fire.
Unmitigated disaster notwithstanding, I'm not too certain of what follows after, though I'd be willing to hedge a few guesses involving a series of mass-deportations and continuation of the Soviet Pogrom at home, and genocidal atrocities and barrage after barrage of "atomic surprises" abroad, as the USSR cuts a bloody swath of its own in its march through Europe. Using Stalin's unhinged reaction to Mao's insubordination as a benchmark, I can easily visualize him dropping his first hydrogen bomb on a city other than Berlin--perhaps on an Italian city rather than a German one--just to terrify the Nazi leadership, get semi-sane members to oust Himmler, and agree to a surrender. Then going "Psyche!" and unleashing dozens upon dozens more hydrogen bombs, before imposing his own, more nuke-happy version of Generalplan Ost onto the defeated and disemboweled Third Reich.
War with the W/Allies begins. Only, instead of liberating Europe from the Nazi jackboot, they'll be freeing it from Stalin's iron grip at similar--or perhaps even greater--cost than IOTL, thanks to Soviet nukes. Pre-covid-19 I gather? My EU scenario? Yes. Merry Christmas, by the way!
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575
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Post by 575 on Dec 26, 2021 9:21:14 GMT
My EU scenario? Yes. Merry Christmas, by the way! Belated but better than never - Merry Christmas
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 26, 2021 14:58:44 GMT
My EU scenario? Yes. Merry Christmas, by the way! Belated but better than never - Merry Christmas Thanks and no problem. Happy New Year, too, so long as we're wishing each other well. 'ASB Cold War: Roman Empire Vs. United Kingdom'. Both empires have comparable technology and span the lands they had at their respective territorial peaks IOTL, minus certain overlapping regions. In other words, the Romans give up the British Isles, while the British lose Middle Eastern possessions once controlled by the Romans. Ideology-wise, my (intuitive) guess is that the British are the leading light of classical liberalism and "Christian civilization", whereas the Romans are polytheistic traditionalists who fear the wave of social changes their northern European rivals are spearheading. Economically, I imagine the UK being more commerce-oriented and being first-rate guarantor of worldwide free trade, though I otherwise feel the two empires would be less at (economic) odds than the United States and Soviet Russia, for example.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 26, 2021 16:44:37 GMT
Belated but better than never - Merry Christmas Thanks and no problem. Happy New Year, too, so long as we're wishing each other well. 'ASB Cold War: Roman Empire Vs. United Kingdom'. Both empires have comparable technology and span the lands they had at their respective territorial peaks IOTL, minus certain overlapping regions. In other words, the Romans give up the British Isles, while the British lose Middle Eastern possessions once controlled by the Romans. Ideology-wise, my (intuitive) guess is that the British are the leading light of classical liberalism and "Christian civilization", whereas the Romans are polytheistic traditionalists who fear the wave of social changes their northern European rivals are spearheading. Economically, I imagine the UK being more commerce-oriented and being first-rate guarantor of worldwide free trade, though I otherwise feel the two empires would be less at (economic) odds than the United States and Soviet Russia, for example.
Now that would be interesting. A lot would depend on power situations elsewhere in the world, such as the rest of Europe, rest of N America and places like China.
There would also be some questions like if Rome is still polytheistic traditionalists what is the status of Christianity as without it becoming important inside that empire its going to be vastly different in its development. Not to mention knock on effects such as if Rome held its traditional borders how would Islam have developed and hence impacts on areas such as India, much of Africa etc. Or is it a case of a Rome from one world and a surviving British empire from another moved to what is otherwise OTL - which of course means that many of us such as myself won't be here.
The other issue would be the status of the British empire? If its like say ~1930 with the UK - possibly still including all of Ireland, the self governing Dominions and India and the rest largely directly ruled colonies then a Roman empire than can call on broad support - such as in the early participate rather than the later empire then the latter would probably have the edge. They would have France, a good chunk of Germany, Italy, the bulk of the Low Countries along with Iberia and all the Balkans as well as much of the Mid-east and N Africa with a lot of resources and potential. Unless its some sort of totalitarian state with a hell of a lot of discontent or even still widespread slavery.
Assuming the peak for Rome is as 117AD i.e the death of Trajan, when they had Dacia and also for a brief while until they gave it up virtually all Mesopotamia - although possibly not Kuwait? and I think Britain would have what was then the Trucial states - now the UAE and places like Qatar and Bahrain.
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