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Post by american2006 on Dec 21, 2020 19:14:13 GMT
Alternate History has a few cliches in use (balkanization, everything being solved by conflict, etc etc). What are the biggest Alternate History cliches? From myself I'd assume at least the following:
Balkanization: Basically taking a map of the Balkan peninsula and applying the same logic elsewhere
Unification: Opposite of Balkanization, uniting several countries/ethnic groups/faiths into one.
Everything solved by conflict: Problem=war, no diplomacy whatsoever.
What other big AH cliches are there?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 21, 2020 19:21:08 GMT
Balkanization: Basically taking a map of the Balkan peninsula and applying the same logic elsewhere Wonder what the term was before the events of the Balkans happen. Also nice idea for a thread. |
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Post by american2006 on Dec 21, 2020 19:44:47 GMT
Balkanization: Basically taking a map of the Balkan peninsula and applying the same logic elsewhere Wonder what the term was before the events of the Balkans happen. Also nice idea for a thread. Thank you. Giving a guess, Germanization, maybe? Have you seen a map of the HRE? Or maybe just Europanization depending on the time period. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 21, 2020 19:54:43 GMT
Decolonization.
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Post by american2006 on Dec 21, 2020 19:56:01 GMT
Didn't even think of this one. Most definitely true though. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 21, 2020 20:01:38 GMT
Didn't even think of this one. Most definitely true though. Well i have seen this in many AH TLs. |
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Post by american2006 on Dec 21, 2020 20:09:05 GMT
Didn't even think of this one. Most definitely true though. Well i have seen this in many AH TLs. Oh... at first I thought you meant another word for balkanization  Most definetly still true, however. Most countries throughout history never did decolonize, Rome and America for example. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 21, 2020 20:29:30 GMT
Do you mean that decolonisation of western colonies are a cliche as opposed to almost inevitable? I suspect it would be pretty much by the 2000 with a POD later than 1900 unless you got some very nasty racist or other extreme political position and ends up with effectively widespread genocide. Even then I suspect it would be virtually impossible for any European top hold onto India.
I would agree with the three examples american2006 mentions being too common in AH. Possibly also some ideas or states inevitable arising - although I admit I'm using declonisation myself above. One thing you may have noted always frustrates me is the idea of a single nation/dynasty conquering all of Europe then probably both expanding further and/or developing both technologically and culturally as OTL which I think virtually impossible.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 21, 2020 20:35:20 GMT
Well i have seen this in many AH TLs. Oh... at first I thought you meant another word for balkanization Most definetly still true, however. Most countries throughout history never did decolonize, Rome and America for example.
America did for those areas where it didn't totally overwhelm the native population. The Philippines being the obvious example here. True in most other cases it killed or displaced the native population and because that maintained a continuous territory [other than Alaska and Hawaii] that made a natural state, just as Russia and France for instance were able to.
Rome never declononised but then it accepted all subject peoples as citizens [other than slaves of course].
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Post by american2006 on Dec 21, 2020 20:53:58 GMT
Oh... at first I thought you meant another word for balkanization Most definetly still true, however. Most countries throughout history never did decolonize, Rome and America for example.
America did for those areas where it didn't totally overwhelm the native population. The Philippines being the obvious example here. True in most other cases it killed or displaced the native population and because that maintained a continuous territory [other than Alaska and Hawaii] that made a natural state, just as Russia and France for instance were able to.
Rome never declononised but then it accepted all subject peoples as citizens [other than slaves of course].
This is very true, but considering the original size of the United States it is undeniable that decolonization never fully occurred. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 21, 2020 20:58:59 GMT
America did for those areas where it didn't totally overwhelm the native population. The Philippines being the obvious example here. True in most other cases it killed or displaced the native population and because that maintained a continuous territory [other than Alaska and Hawaii] that made a natural state, just as Russia and France for instance were able to.
Rome never declononised but then it accepted all subject peoples as citizens [other than slaves of course].
This is very true, but considering the original size of the United States it is undeniable that decolonization never fully occurred.
Not fully but how many areas are actually majority occupied by people who could be considered or consider themselves not Americans? Although we're talking over definitions I suspect.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 22, 2020 0:49:33 GMT
Since this seems to concern alternate history more broadly (as opposed to only the plausible scenarios), I'd guess that time-travel ISOTs in which some good guys from the future curb-stomp the bad guys of the past--and somehow rewrite history without instigating other major problems down the line along the way--also counts as cliche.
Sending the modern U.S. back to 1940 to level the Axis a few years early and win the Cold War before it even begins is one of the more convenient examples of what I mean here. Though there are, of course, plenty of variations with more or less the same general outcome (such as sending 1980s America or 2000s Britain back instead).
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 22, 2020 5:17:27 GMT
Axis victories, because there are plenty of TLs about them.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 22, 2020 5:19:37 GMT
Axis victories, because there are plenty of TLs about them. Followed by a Central powers victory. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 22, 2020 6:30:53 GMT
Southern victories too, if the PoD selected is often overused. (Gettysburg, TL-191). I mean, you could have a Central Powers victory TL that isn't a total cliche if there is a PoD that hasn't been explored. It depends on how it is executed.
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