stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 22, 2020 11:00:56 GMT
Axis victories, because there are plenty of TLs about them. Followed by a Central powers victory.
Well their less over-played than Axis victories but definitely more of them than say Allied powers easier victories in WWI which is probably more likely.
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Post by redrobin65 on Dec 22, 2020 15:07:58 GMT
Minor one, but technological development progressing at the exact same pace as OTL, despite other factors in an alternate world which would in theory hasten/delay it.
A president/Prime Minister getting absolutely everything right and creating a utopia for their country.
As to Nazi victories...most are not very good. The only ones that are good accept the implausibility behind them and are set decades later, like TNO, which acknowledges how ridiculous some of the things in its universe are, but is well written and details what the reality of the Germans winning would be.
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Post by Don Quijote on Dec 22, 2020 23:07:46 GMT
Nazi victory obviously remains the big one - it can be done right, but rarely is. Byzantine survival is also overdone, though less so in published AH. And at the risk of provoking the forum's Cold War specialists, the Soviets starting WW3 in the 1980s has become rather cliched.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 24, 2021 6:11:26 GMT
Everybody already pointed out especially Axis victory, Central Powers victory, and Southern victory.
The most overused cliche's I have seen is "What if Britain falls to the Nazis?" and the response is "Simple the Nazis win and invade the United States years later."
Some even had "What if the USSR won the Cold War?" and other one would respond "The Soviets invade Europe and the United States and proceed to take over the globe in one mighty Soviet Empire."
Another over-asked question: "What if Mao invaded Taiwan in 1949-50?"
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 24, 2021 14:57:15 GMT
Japan is always stronger than Korea, often conquering the peninsula almost as an afterthought.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 30, 2021 11:14:50 GMT
In circumstances of Central Powers and Nazi victories, the Allies either cave in and accept everything, maintaining minimal forces. I haven't read one where there is a big post WW1 British Army, a maintenance of the huge Ministry of Munitions framework or where there is a realistic naval reaction to still having a threat next door.
Washington Naval Treaty analogues emerge even when there are completely different drivers.
In ongoing Nazi regimes, exactly the same type of aircraft from @ are developed by the Allies, despite a completely different threat.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 30, 2021 11:44:20 GMT
In circumstances of Central Powers and Nazi victories, the Allies either cave in and accept everything, maintaining minimal forces. I haven't read one where there is a big post WW1 British Army, a maintenance of the huge Ministry of Munitions framework or where there is a realistic naval reaction to still having a threat next door. Washington Naval Treaty analogues emerge even when there are completely different drivers. In ongoing Nazi regimes, exactly the same type of aircraft from @ are developed by the Allies, despite a completely different threat.
Very true, especially on the 1st. If Germany won big on the continent, especially given their desires for annexations and 'protectorates' Britain would have to become basically an armed camp to maintain any independence.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 31, 2021 4:23:18 GMT
I remember reading some discussion on what would be a realistic result of a Great War draw a few years ago. I’ll try and dig it out, but it included a standing army of more than 15 divisions plus large reserves, regular training deployments to France and more.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 31, 2021 14:13:09 GMT
I remember reading some discussion on what would be a realistic result of a Great War draw a few years ago. I’ll try and dig it out, but it included a standing army of more than 15 divisions plus large reserves, regular training deployments to France and more.
I assume that is the standing army of infantry divisions in the UK? OTL in the UK the BEF had 6 Infantry and at least a couple of cavalry divisions - albeit with some reserve requirement to bring them up to full strength and there were other British regular units scattered around the world. Would think that 15 Inf and probably assorted other units - especially say from 1916 onward would include some armoured and possibly artillery units and other support formations, in Britain as well as probably additional units compared to 1914 around the world as there are likely to be threats in places like Egypt and the Gulf as well as Africa and the Pacific if Germany got some/all of its colonies back.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 31, 2021 15:17:16 GMT
I reckon that the discussion was on Navweaps somewhere before 2012, so am trying to track it down. As such, I’m not sure on the precise composition of the forward deployed forces. I seem to remember it being posted by Mark L Bailey.
The idea of the Jerries getting their colonies back is another bit of a cliche, as there is no way the Japanese would hand over their conquests and no reason to return German New Guinea either. As a further point, the British handing everything back meekly to the Ottomans happens a bit, similarly without reason.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 31, 2021 15:36:48 GMT
I reckon that the discussion was on Navweaps somewhere before 2012, so am trying to track it down. As such, I’m not sure on the precise composition of the forward deployed forces. I seem to remember it being posted by Mark L Bailey. The idea of the Jerries getting their colonies back is another bit of a cliche, as there is no way the Japanese would hand over their conquests and no reason to return German New Guinea either. As a further point, the British handing everything back meekly to the Ottomans happens a bit, similarly without reason.
Very true on the German Pacific colonies that Japan took over. Especially given the hostility that Germany had already shown to Japan I think the Japanese would say something like try and take them and given the lack of German bases that would be quite a challenge to the IGN. Plus unless its a compromise that greatly favours the Germans I can't see them getting any Pacific territories back. Also S Africa would definitely seek to maintain control of Namibia.
With the Ottomans there were relatively few British territorial gains prior to the last stages of the war but you might get the issue of Egypt and Cyprus, which were both technically tributary states until the Ottomans joined the war. Agreed good look on the Turks getting them back. - You often get the threat in such TLs of Germany sending forces which march through Ottoman territory to occupy Egypt, Iran etc, totally ignoring the logistical problems such actions would face even assuming that Britain doesn't control the Med!
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 1, 2021 4:30:45 GMT
Perhaps the larger cliche out of all these individual examples is that any compromise peace in WW1 must favour the Germans well past the point of an even keel. With the exception of the 1918 Spring Offensive, Germany in general was on the back foot on the Western Front from mid 1915; the localised offensive of Verdun did not occur in isolation from the Somme.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 1, 2021 10:14:20 GMT
Perhaps the larger cliche out of all these individual examples is that any compromise peace in WW1 must favour the Germans well past the point of an even keel. With the exception of the 1918 Spring Offensive, Germany in general was on the back foot on the Western Front from mid 1915; the localised offensive of Verdun did not occur in isolation from the Somme.
I think the basis for this is that for most people who don't study the war in detail they see Germans encamped on a large chunk of France, virtually all of Belgium as well as large areas in the east as well as seeing Serbia and later Romania defeated and occupied so they think any 'compromise' must see large concessions to the Germans territoriality compared to the 1914 position. They neglect that this is politically impossible for the western powers especially as it would leave them vulnerable to any new German attack. At the very least any compromise must see a return to the 1914 borders and the collapse of Russia from late 1917 only reinforces this for the western powers as anything else is a crippling defeat as it threats their survival as independent states.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 1, 2021 11:05:50 GMT
There was that perception in some neutral texts of the time; I remember reading a near hagiographic account of the inevitability of German victory in a text I found whilst searching for Heligoland’s defences. However, even though the occupation of those territories in the West yielded them some benefit, it really was more of an absence for France that was the real bite. There are the extremely vehement types who insist that the lack of American loans in 1916 would mean an utter Allied collapse and then an utter German victory, but that argument doesn’t really work for me; it does seem to be derived from a position of utter American indispensability, which is more of a subjective area in the entire scope of the Great War.
It is somewhat interesting how things tend to intersect like this.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 1, 2021 11:39:06 GMT
I don’t think it’s been mentioned here before, but “flipped” scenarios that have different players take on roles analogous to OTL characters and factions is probably poster-boy example. Back in the USSA is a convenient instance of this, having America basically become a copy-pasted version of the USSR (among other things).
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