lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 23, 2021 14:44:05 GMT
Two tidbits: “Not Washington, Peking or Brazil?” What is Brazil doing in Africa.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 23, 2021 15:17:52 GMT
Two tidbits: “Not Washington, Peking or Brazil?” What is Brazil doing in Africa.
Good one, I missed that. Have a feeling Brazil is still an empire and might have inherited the Portuguese empire in Africa, although possibly remembering wrongly. As such they could have a role, although less than some of the great powers.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 23, 2021 18:51:45 GMT
Chaps,
Brazil is an empire, but has not inherited Portuguese Africa. It is a very strong power with ambitions of becoming a superpower; these are a long, long way off. However, it has been engaging in Africa as in South America to extend its influence. This was noted by President Thompson in From Sea to Shining Sea.
In population, military strength, economic power, industry, civil society and power projection, Brazil is “getting there”. However, it is still a long way off.
As of the beginning of 1965, it has the following stats:
GDP: $750,573,172,901 (14th, narrowly behind Spain and the Benelux) Population: 130,562,673 (9th, about to overtake France and will eventually leapfrog Germany on birthrate alone) Defence Spending: $45 billion (13th) Share of World Industrial Output: 0.6% Steel Production: 20 million tons (16th) Coal: 32 million tons (still a net importer) Automobiles: 330,000 (set to double by 1970) Nuclear Weapons: 10-15
It is designing its own tank, very slowly, and is still an importer. The same goes for aircraft and ships, but Brazil does have jet bombers, battleships and aircraft carriers.
All in all, it is a fair way off great power status, let alone superpower level, but it has expansive ambitions.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 23, 2021 19:04:22 GMT
Two tidbits: “What do you mean?” “I would like a report on the security of our embassies around the world. In Persia in ‘62 and across the whole Muddle East in ‘56, we faced some very dangerous circumstances through protests and what verged on full blown attacks. We don’t have the luxuries we once had in the Legation Quarters in China.” “Of course, Prime Minister. I would suggest that we are faced with something of a conundrum - unless we propose garrisons on the level that we kept in China, any defence would be too small to be effective whilst being large enough to raise the hackles of the states in the region, which I would presume to be Arab and Persian. I must warn you that it has previously been opined that too strong a presence on the ground could go some way towards precipitating trouble in some parts of the world.” “That’s why we have a strategic reserve, Obo - to provide for a short, sharp message. If if comes down to it, if any third rate little tinpot country thinks they can attack British territory, then I want our policy and our response to be clear - we send in the fleet, we send in the bombers and we invade.” “That seems perfectly understandable, Prime Minister, but may I ask what has lead you to want to be quite so…strident…on this particular issue?” “Apart from reviewing the cases I said? The Congo Palace Incident of ‘61 and the business in Indonesia last year. And the Lapcat Report..... Simon Was the Lapcat Report the feedback from I forget his name but the guy from OTL? In which case I assume what inspired this was Iran in 1979, especially since Britain, with its greater influence and power is more likely to be the target of any attacks on embassies in the region. Steve
Steve, You are correct: Lapcat is the codename given to Sam Johnson’s sojourn in Ashford and subsequent information on Earthly history. The images of the 1979 US Embassy hostage crisis were extremely galling. The point of that tidbit section was to show how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Because of what happened in another circumstance, Barton is inclined to “go heavy” to prevent it occurring here. This may well result in some different results and perceptions. The Zulus, Gurkhas or Sikhs would fulfill his intended purpose, though. Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 14, 2021 14:51:57 GMT
A New Jerusalem Part 17
10 Downing Street December 16th 1964
The morning briefing paper was full of its usual mixture of surprising developments and the real stories behind the headlines. Even after his short months in office, Stanley Barton had become accustomed to the regular litany of tension, dread and subterfuge that went on beneath the attention of the populace. He often felt that he knew less after going through it, with the tide of things that he knew he did not know swelling by the day.
The aftermath of the smashing Belgian success in Operation Dragon Rouge was unsurprisingly complex - the Congo did make for everything to be convoluted. The Belgian paras had dealt with the Simbas very roughly in the process of rescuing the beleagured Europeans from their clutches and the follow up contingents of the Congolese National Army and their white mercenary compatriots had gone on the offensive around the immediate vicinity of Stanleyville. This seeming success was weighed up against reports by American and British special operation forces in the area of an increased presence of Soviet weaponry.
The Turkish buzzing of the Papal Flight had set off something of a diplomatic fuss, with the Italians, French and Spanish all competing with each other to offer the Vatican their very own jet fighters as a gesture of goodwill; Barton gave momentary thought to sending a few gift wrapped Arrows in order to head them off at the pass and made a note in the margin to have the issue explored. It wouldn't hurt to be seen as an even-handed defender of faith, particularly with a Catholic in the White House.
The Italians were still extremely chuffed after the launch of SS Marco Polo, which was due to reach Venus in a little under two months, whilst back on Earth, there were dire reports of increased zombie activity emanating from the Haitian countryside. Something really needed to be done about that, but there was something of a turf war over spheres of influence between Washington, London and Paris over the matter.
That dashed elusive Che Guevara fellow was up to no good again, with his threats against the member states of the Free World Military Forces in the Far East being followed by a low-level wave of bomb scares in embassies across Europe and the brazen firebombing of a Monaco casino. His accursed IRA was building up to something, but neither SIS nor SOE could find any definitive leads.
It was not all blood and gloom, though. The Norwegians had signed off on the new arms deal and strategic military cooperation agreement that had been stalled for the last six months, paving the way for the permanent forward deployment of equipment and troops for the defence of the Far North. The relationship between Britain and Norway was one he wanted to grow closer, both for its economic benefits and to honour the ties of blood forged in the four years of fighting on the Norwegian Front during the last war. The East India Company's forecasts for the next financial year were extremely bright, and the Government's share of that would be extremely handy as the cost of planned rearmament continued to spiral.
News from Mars was most welcome of all, though, even if it was heavily coded. Firelock Primed.
That should set the cat among the pigeons.
"Did you say something, Prime Minister?"
"What? Oh, no. Nothing of import, Sir Obo." said Barton to the Cabinet Secretary, who had glanced up from his own morning papers. "Actually, yes, there is something, sorry."
"Pray tell, then, Prime Minister."
“Security. We need to address diplomatic security.”
“What do you mean?”
“I would like a report on the security of our embassies around the world. In Persia in ‘62 and across the whole Middle East in ‘56, we faced some very dangerous circumstances through protests and what verged on full blown attacks. We don’t have the luxuries we once had in the Legation Quarters in China.”
“Of course, Prime Minister. I would suggest that we are faced with something of a conundrum - unless we propose garrisons on the level that we kept in China, any defence would be too small to be effective whilst being large enough to raise the hackles of the states in the region, which I would presume to be Arab and Persian. I must warn you that it has previously been opined that too strong a presence on the ground could go some way towards precipitating trouble in some parts of the world.”
“That’s why we have a strategic reserve, Obo - to provide for a short, sharp message. If if comes down to it, if any third rate little tinpot country thinks they can attack British territory, then I want our policy and our response to be clear - we send in the fleet, we scramble the bombers and we invade.”
“That seems perfectly understandable, Prime Minister, but may I ask what has lead you to want to be quite so…strident…on this particular issue?”
“Apart from reviewing the cases I said? The Congo Palace Incident of ‘61 and the business in Indonesia last year.
And the Lapcat Report.
“Ah. Might I suggest that there may be some negative aspects involved in going to war with a Soviet satellite state on account of mob action?”
“You might. You are right on the issue of the size of a force. The Americans have their Marines for their embassies and the French have the Foreign Legion, whereas we make do with the Imperial Police.”
“The obvious answer would be the Gurkhas, but they are already stretched considerably.”
“Yes, and it will be a few years until the increases in recruiting in Nepal give us the manpower we need. What about the Zulus?”
Sir Obo thought for a second and nodded. The Zulu regiments had a reputation for fearsome valour and sheer ferocity almost equal to the Gurkhas themselves. Almost.
“If you are contemplating a symbolic yet effective defence capacity, Prime Minister, you could certainly do a lot worse.”
“Good. Good. In any event, I’ll take the issue to Cabinet once I get the report. My gut tells me to ramp up our defences, but I do see the merit of at least some degree of flexibility. As you rightly say, we don’t need to have a full battlegroup in every single state, although it would be bemusing to see the reaction of the French. What I do envisage is a standard protective force that can hold the fort for a few hours until we can get the cavalry there; our forward ready battalions and the Royals can reach most trouble spots fast enough.”
“Quite correct, Prime Minister.”
“The one exception to that is Viet Nam. With our force commitment there, we are an increasingly large target, enhanced by having the Americans and French across the road and the Germans next door. I want a crack reinforced platoon of Gurkhas in Saigon by the end of the year, the most restocked and plans for an improved enchanted security wall to be formulated after that. It would be an awful shame for something to happen to the place.”
Sir Obo thought of the quite beautiful newly refurbished embassy in Saigon, perhaps the finest modern Gothic building in the Orient. It would be unfortunate for it to be damaged.
A quiet knock at the door put paid to any continual architectural musings. The Prime Minister had an appointment to keep.
...........................................
Buckingham Palace
“Your Majesty.”
“Mr. Barton, so nice to see you again. How are your wife and children?”
“Very well indeed, Ma’am. They are so looking forward to Christmas, as they never fail to remind me.”
“How very lovely. Where will you be spending it?”
“Chequers, Ma’am. It will be quite the new experience for them.”
“Of course. Please, do sit down.”
Barton paused until the Queen sat down opposite him and then took his place. The audience room was tastefully and royally appointed, as befitted his sovereign’s chief residence. His weekly audiences with the Queen had predominantly taken place here at Buckingham Palace, with but a few being held at Windsor Castle; the monthly meetings of the Privy Council were conducted in the more formal setting of the 1844 Room.
“It has been two months now, since we first met here. Quite a busy time for you.”
“Yes, Ma’am. As I’ve said, as your Prime Minister, I do not have even countenanced having a mandate for radical change, but the government of the Empire is a work never ceasing.”
“Of course, Prime Minister. How goes your Grand Design?”
“Slowly, Ma’am, ever so slowly. The ship of state is an immense vessel, as you know, and difficult to steer onto courses new. However, I’d like to think that the measures we’ve been able to put in place so far will put us on the right course in time. Incremental pushes in the right areas and at the right times, Ma’am, that’s the main part of it. It will take perhaps a year and a half for the impact of our defence spending to be felt in economic and industrial terms, but less than that for our investment in heavy industry and our tax cuts to work.”
“Some parts would seem to not be extremely popular in your own party.”
“No, Ma’am. There is a strong enough feeling in some quarters that we’ve inherited a good enough economy to increase our social spending much more than what we campaigned on and Cabinet has subsequently endorsed. But we’ve got their measure and enough time to quiet them up in full.”
“Indeed. When will the first of our reinforcements leave for the Far East?”
“Very early in the New Year, Ma’am. We’re going to fly out most of the remaining Army units for Australia, but we’ve decided that the main part of our troops for Viet Nam and Malaya will go by sea. It will allow their arrival to send more of a message to the Indonesians and Moscow.”
“I see that will primarily be based around the strategic reserves from Aldershot.”
“Yes, Ma’am. We envisage shipping them out from Portsmouth on the Victoria, Malabar, Euphrates and the Britannic. Should Your Majesty wish to review them prior to their embarkation, I am sure that it will be most welcomed.”
“Naturally, we shall be more than pleased to see off our men.”
“Your Majesty is most gracious. There is, as you know, a full meeting of the Committee for Imperial Defence later today with the various Commonwealth defence staff and ministers. We hope to set in place the plans and strategy for cooperation and defence of the Empire for the next four years, particularly in light of the changing situation in the Far East. After Christmas, it shall be a very busy beginning to the next year indeed, with the Imperial Economic Conference and the Commonwealth Foreign Ministers Meeting barely a week apart, and then my own Grand Tour of Europe, as it were. After that, no doubt, there will be the business of Africa.”
“That is quite the schedule. With regard to Africa, what was the outcome of your initial review of our intended policy?”
“The general thinking is to continue our steady approach to development in East Africa and move forward slightly on the timetable for West Africa. We can maintain our position and interests in the latter case whilst reducing our expenditure on administration and defence by the expediting moves towards autonomy and responsible self government. It will ultimately come down to the French.”
“How?”
“If they keep on their current trajectory towards independence, we must seem to mirror them, to avoid creating any grounds for external influences to exploit. Our view is that they would grant independence in name only, whilst continuing to maintain economic control, strategic alignment, military oversight and political direction. We would prefer a more sustainable policy for our own West African states, but are prepared to follow suit as we move forward on our timetable. In practical terms, we are looking to granting independent self-government on an internal basis for Nigeria, the Gold Coast and the Ivory Coast within the next five or six years; full independence would follow in a decade or so. We’ll be looking to combine the latter two in a federation to provide them with size and power.”
“A reasonable regional counterbalance to the Mali Federation that the French are crafting. However, Prime Minister, there is a more pressing overarching question. What if their independent governments choose a policy of disengagement from the Commonwealth?”
“They’d be foolish to do it, Ma’am, as their only other alternative for support is Moscow, which they know we cannot tolerate.”
“Not Washington, Peking or Brazil?”
“Your point is well taken, Ma’am. Our general approach is that we won’t try and hold any independent state to us by force, but will use our economic influence to keep them in alignment as much as possible. Ultimately, though, we wish to avoid situations like we see in Algeria and the Congo. I think in the long term, our interests are better served by an approach more closely aligned with our own principles of liberty. We should have our African colonies stay in the Empire and Commonwealth out of choice rather than any measure of coercion.”
“In that case, Prime Minister, it would be wise for the matter to be raised during my state visit to Ethiopia, perhaps in a speech. If the best policy is to promote freedom through choice, then what better place than alongside Haile Selassie?”
“As Your Majesty commands, it shall be done. The matter of The Gambia is one I would advise that we view separately, given its position within Senegal. We have had some talks with France regarding a federation of the two colonies once independent and it would be the better strategic choice.”
“That would be wise. How has the review of the Malayan situation proceeded?”
“Now that we’ve been able to review the initial situation reports, Ma’am, it does seem that the policy of the previous government is the best solution. The individual colonies of Brunei, North Borneo and Sarawak lack the capacity to function as independent states, either individually or together; certainly not with the Indonesians next door. As such, we will be working towards their incorporation into Malaya as fully equal states by 1968.”
“That would seem to be a reasonable course of action, Mr. Barton, although I believe it may lead to more issues with Djarkarta.”
“I quite agree, Your Majesty. Publicly, our position towards Sukarno is as indefatigable as ever. Behind the scenes, we are trying to work towards a modus vivendi of some sort. Only on our terms, of course. Whether it be in Africa or the Orient, we are not going to dance to another’s tune.”
The Queen nodded. "Has there been any response from Moscow regarding the arms talks?"
"Nothing official, Ma'am, but they do seem to be a bit more receptive. That seems to be in line with how they've approached the Americans and the French, but it is far to early to ascribe these back channel approaches a temperature approaching a thaw. If they want to genuinely talk, we will listen, just as we did in Constantinople and Stockholm. We are considerably better placed now that we have completed the initial fielding of Blue Streak and the first tranche of Skybolt, but our medium term predictions are that Moscow is certainly not slowing down their deployment of new missiles. As long as that continues, any talk of peace is at best illusory."
"Quite right, Prime Minister. Peace at any price is no peace at all. Now, would you care to take some tea?”
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 14, 2021 14:57:13 GMT
A New Jerusalem Part 17“I would like a report on the security of our embassies around the world. In Persia in ‘62 and across the whole Middle East in ‘56, we faced some very dangerous circumstances through protests and what verged on full blown attacks. We don’t have the luxuries we once had in the Legation Quarters in China.” “Of course, Prime Minister. I would suggest that we are faced with something of a conundrum - unless we propose garrisons on the level that we kept in China, any defence would be too small to be effective whilst being large enough to raise the hackles of the states in the region, which I would presume to be Arab and Persian. I must warn you that it has previously been opined that too strong a presence on the ground could go some way towards precipitating trouble in some parts of the world.” “That’s why we have a strategic reserve, Obo - to provide for a short, sharp message. If if comes down to it, if any third rate little tinpot country thinks they can attack British territory, then I want our policy and our response to be clear - we send in the fleet, we scramble the bombers and we invade.” “That seems perfectly understandable, Prime Minister, but may I ask what has lead you to want to be quite so…strident…on this particular issue?” “Apart from reviewing the cases I said? The Congo Palace Incident of ‘61 and the business in Indonesia last year. Did the Boxer rebellion happen also in the Dark Earth verse.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 14, 2021 14:58:03 GMT
Yes, it did. It was met with an even heavier reaction by the Great Powers.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 16, 2021 15:52:33 GMT
Some future snippets:
The uncovering of the Soviet T-68 heavy tank back in 1961 had been the cause of considerable contention for the Army, throwing a spanner in its plans for the fielding of an all-Chieftain force and leading to four key decisions. In the first instance, the early retirement of the Conqueror was promptly cancelled and production lines reopened, so that an interim measure could counter any perceived armoured advantage that Moscow sought to engineer. A programme for a new and upgraded version of the capable design had been initiated, with the initial proposed specifications now in front of the Prime Minister seeming to be quite impressive. The new tank, or ‘Super Conqueror’ as some American inspired draftsman at Vickers had dubbed it, was almost eighteen tons heavier. Most of that was taken up in fully modern spaced composite armour augmented by appliqué plates that made it the most heavily protected tank in the world, but it also sported a new 6”/50 main armament. The new high powered gun had been specially forged by the dwarven smiths of Grymark in their dragon-fired forge deep beneath the mountains of Scotland and, in trials, had successfully blown the turret clean off a simulated T-64 from almost two miles away. Orders for an initial 1240 tanks had been placed for initial production in 1965, with an option for an extension to equip the T.A. and further dedicated regular heavy armoured regiments. In light of these measures, there did not seem to be any necessity for a superheavy successor to the remaining wartime Dreadnoughts, now all deep in reserve save for the trio in the Middle East.
Unlike the Germans and Soviets and in common with the United States, Britain had never embraced the notion of the assault gun as a distinct weapon of battle during the Second World War, preferring the deployment of their copious numbers of medium tanks. This had carried over into the postwar era and Korea, where tanks had been commonly employed for direct fire support of infantry offensive and defensive action. The urban fighting in Seoul and Pyongyang had highlighted a role for heavy self propelled guns; Barton remembered the similar lessons of the breaking of the Siegfried Line and the Battle of Berlin. The prevalence of urban terrain in the new fighting ground of Northern Germany had lead to a confluence of thinking on the matter and the second major decision - the development of a specialised heavy assault gun using the Chieftain hull. With a main armament of a converted 5.25" superheavy anti-aircraft gun mounted in a heavily defended fixed mount, the Champion assault gun combined lethal firepower with a low height and unsurpassed frontal armour protection. Adapting the Royal Navy's standard destroyer gun to use on land had been more difficult than first envisaged and a production vehicle was not expected until 1966, but the interest of other states, particularly Sweden, had managed to keep the project from cancellation.
The third decision had been to order the experimental Challenger tank destroyer into full development. The Challenger was an absolutely brutal vehicle that bore a strong general resemblance to the Conqueror, with the primary difference being the position of the hulking turret, which sat towards the rear of the vehicle. The main armament of a 7.2” gun had proved capable of blowing off the turret of entire tanks during the lengthy testing process, but its major attribute was the versatility granted by its long range firepower. The British Army had never truly embraced the tank destroyer concept during the last war, as its predominant focus had been on offensive and expeditionary capacities in the long effort to liberate Europe and Asia from the Axis, rather than the more extensive role played by armoured warfare on the Eastern Front. However, with the defence of Germany and Central Europe from aggression being the paramount mission of the 1960s and beyond, the utility of defensive firepower was distinctly increased; their success in testing in the deserts of the Middle East and North Africa was something of the icing in the cake.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 16, 2021 17:41:03 GMT
The context of the above is part of a briefing paper read prior to the CID meeting that expands on the “heavies” (tanks, artillery, missiles) in a bit of detail. It also shows that the British reaction to the T-68 in particular and Soviet arms programmes in general is not always the best one.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 17, 2021 9:49:27 GMT
The context of the above is part of a briefing paper read prior to the CID meeting that expands on the “heavies” (tanks, artillery, missiles) in a bit of detail. It also shows that the British reaction to the T-68 in particular and Soviet arms programmes in general is not always the best one.
It does seem rather complex with 3 different programmes in response to one Soviet heavy tank. Also with guns going up to 7.2" and all the armour their not going to be that light so may well be limited by local infrastructure, especially roads, bridges, railway capacity and the like. Three different guns 5.25" 6" and 7.2" is going to complicate training, operation and logistics as well.
Is the mention of the tank destroyer the 4th decision? When you mentioned the assault gun I was thinking that with a largely defensive role planned in Europe a TD might well be a useful capacity. Especially since deployed with front line infantry units it could free up tanks and assault guns for counter attack forces.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 17, 2021 10:56:55 GMT
Part 17 Notes:
- Dragon Rouge occurs in a Congo even more complex and chaotic than in @. It does involve a larger force, but their success is simply tactical. - The Turks did not set out to buzz the Pope, but their actions set off a series of events. - Barton is thinking of offering aircraft in order to gain brownie points with various Catholic nations and leaders, as well as to gain advantage in the complex chess game that is Europe. - Italy returning to space is a function of their improving economy and power. Germany isn’t too far behind, along with Japan. - Haiti does have some worrying signs of future trouble which will brew up in the late 1960s. - International terrorism is on the rise and Guevara and the IRA are heavily supported by the KGB, KAOS, MAD and SPECTRE - British relations with Norway are seen as extremely important. This latest arms deal is for upgrading of it medium and heavy artillery park, 250 Thunderbird 2 SAMs, anti-tank missiles and over 450 APCs. - HM Government’s share of EIC revenues (25%) in 1964/65 comes to just over 525 million pounds. - The news from Mars won’t be revealed until the end of Space: The New Frontier. - Barton’s concern over embassy security is driven by mention of the images of the 1979 US Embassy hostage crisis. The long term solution is going to be Gurkha detachments, with the Zulus only filling the gap temporarily. - The Embassy in Saigon not only looks different, but is located in an area with at least three other major embassies. This leads to more cumulative security. - The meeting with the Queen is fairly straightforward, with only the various West African mergers being majorly different; the name for the Gold Coast-Ivory Coast federation is still being decided upon. - The key wording in the conversation is Barton’s use of “commands” as compared to “advises”. This represents the different balance of the powers of the constitutional monarchy.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 17, 2021 11:19:32 GMT
The context of the above is part of a briefing paper read prior to the CID meeting that expands on the “heavies” (tanks, artillery, missiles) in a bit of detail. It also shows that the British reaction to the T-68 in particular and Soviet arms programmes in general is not always the best one. It does seem rather complex with 3 different programmes in response to one Soviet heavy tank. Also with guns going up to 7.2" and all the armour their not going to be that light so may well be limited by local infrastructure, especially roads, bridges, railway capacity and the like. Three different guns 5.25" 6" and 7.2" is going to complicate training, operation and logistics as well.
Is the mention of the tank destroyer the 4th decision? When you mentioned the assault gun I was thinking that with a largely defensive role planned in Europe a TD might well be a useful capacity. Especially since deployed with front line infantry units it could free up tanks and assault guns for counter attack forces.
Steve, It is a complex response, but only really Decision 1 was directly driven by the T-68; the other two mentioned here were already in the pipeline, but this pushed them past the finish line. As outlined above, the Champion was desired for the close support role and the Challenger for the overwatch/long range sniper role. The contents of the report are written in such a way to justify development and spending to the politicians. All the heavy vehicles raise significant logistical issues, as you rightly point out, which will need a fair bit of spending on infrastructure by the Germans. The ammunition situation is also an issue, albeit one that the British Army is accustomed to; through the 1950s, there was the 6” of the Conqueror, 36pdr/105mm of the Centurion and 25pdr/90mm of the Royalist light tank. I did consider having the assault gun armed with the 64pdr/125mm of the Chieftain, but the 5.25” is noticeably more powerful and also outshoots the Soviet 130mm. I am trying to include a mixture of mistakes and suboptimal decisions by all players in this and other works. 1.) ‘Super Conqueror’ = Heavy Tank 2.) Champion = Assault Gun/Jagdchieftain mixed with the fictitious FV 217 Badger from World of Tanks 3.) Challenger = Heavy Tank Destroyer/FV 215b The fourth decision/weapon wasn’t included in this snippet. Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 24, 2021 8:42:29 GMT
Snippet the Next:
In the final decision, a more oblique approach had been initiated, using the most powerful arm of the British Army - the Royal Artillery. New shells and rocket warheads were being developed for the deployment of anti-tank mines. A single regiment of 6” medium guns could lay a minefield of 240 mines at a distance of 25 miles, whilst the heavier artillery could do so at even greater ranges and concentrations. Even more ambitious was the project to develop an airburst shell filled with improved conventional munitions to attack the thin top armour of enemy tanks, but this was somewhat less advanced than the mines. Finally, new HEAT and HESH shells were to be issued to self propelled field and medium regiments in small quantities for the direct fire role. All three of those purposes would involve the FV-236, the Army’s new heavy mobile gun. Based on the Chieftain chassis with a powerful 1000hp engine, it was armed with a 6"/60 gun, fired a new 100lb shell and protected by a new lightweight alusteel covered with composite armour. Its fire control, laying system and loader were both heavily automated and it was capable of operating fully sealed within an MBRC environment. The FV-236 could cross rivers swiftly with its amphibious kit and operating in both day and night with integrated dark vision sights. The gun was specially cooled to allow for very high rate of fire of 8 rounds a minute, with considerably higher rates in bursts, and had a maximum range of 45 miles using current supercharges and rocket assisted projectiles; further developments in propellant, propulsion and design of the base of the shell conducted in concert with the Swedes offered further increases in range. Accompanying the self propelled howitzer was an armoured ammunition resupply vehicle that could rapidly reload the FV-236 whilst being capable of traversing rough terrain at the same top speed of 42 miles per hour. There was a planned capacity to replace the gun with a 155mm version should the Atlantic Alliance artillery standardisation talks come to fruition, but progress on the matter was viewed as less than likely in the short term due to the strong preferences by the Italians, Austrians Germans for their 149mm and 150mm weapons. In any event, the FV-236 represented the way forward for the British Army, providing the most powerful medium general support gun for its heavy divisions and corps artillery brigades.
The rest of the Army's artillery park was in a good state, with both the 8" and 9.2" guns being fully modern late 1950s designs, the 125mm Light Gun leading the Free World in light field artillery and the multiple rocket launchers lying at the cutting edge of technological development. The procurement of the US 175mm guns would provide a useful longer range counter-battery capacity against the worrisome Soviet 180mm as well as being a politically astute measure - it would hopefully allow for a more advantageous agreement to be reached over the licenced American production of the 125mm guns. Ultimately, though, Barton saw the way ahead as one of the maximal standardisation possible for the field army, which would entail reducing the number of active calibres to the most efficient level. When such a time came, there were some very interesting uses for a long range, highly accurate gun in the home defence of the British Isles. Nothing could, should or would be wasted in this process of rearmament, of that he was quite determined. To that end, the thousands of surplus 25pdrs and their vast stocks of ammunition were not simply being scrapped, but kept in war emergency storage, at least for the time being. There were some staff officers in the Royal Artillery who had proposed their use as infantry support guns, but their arguments had been defeated by the plain obsolescence of the type in the face of rapidly advancing technology; outside of another positional war like Korea, it was as moribund as the conventional anti-tank gun, despite the Soviets still fielding both.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 24, 2021 8:49:23 GMT
All three of those purposes would involve the FV-236, the Army’s new heavy mobile gun. Based on the Chieftain chassis with a powerful 1000hp engine, it was armed with a 6"/60 gun, fired a new 100lb shell and protected by a new lightweight alusteel covered with composite armour. Its fire control, laying system and loader were both heavily automated and it was capable of operating fully sealed within an MBRC environment. The FV-236 could cross rivers swiftly with its amphibious kit and operating in both day and night with integrated dark vision sights. The gun was specially cooled to allow for very high rate of fire of 8 rounds a minute, with considerably higher rates in bursts, and had a maximum range of 45 miles using current supercharges and rocket assisted projectiles A chieftain based self-propelled gun, now why did they not think of that in OTL.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 24, 2021 9:11:31 GMT
They bought the M109 rather than develop any British self propelled 155mm artillery in the 1960s, then went for the SP-70 with the Germans and Italians. After it’s failure, Vickers did create a prototype self propelled 155mm on a Chieftain chassis in the early 1980s. The last didn’t attract any interest due to the timing and the issues with the @ Chieftain’s engine, suspension and transmission.
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