lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 24, 2021 9:19:48 GMT
They bought the M109 rather than develop any British self propelled 155mm artillery in the 1960s, then went for the SP-70 with the Germans and Italians. After it’s failure, Vickers did create a prototype self propelled 155mm on a Chieftain chassis in the early 1980s. The last didn’t attract any interest due to the timing and the issues with the @ Chieftain’s engine, suspension and transmission. But here it seems there are no problem with the Chieftain’s engine, suspension and transmission.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 24, 2021 9:47:57 GMT
Well, it is a different engine, being rather more powerful in general and having a much better power to weight ratio, improving reliability. It was never a multi fuel engine. Rather than the older Horstmann suspension, it has a newer, more comfortable hydropneumatic system and the transmission is a TN12-1000.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 24, 2021 10:56:16 GMT
Tank production and development does have a somewhat larger private component, as, in addition to Vickers, Armstrong-Whitworth are still in the heavy armaments and tank game. They are joined by the major motor conglomerates: BMC/Morris, Austin, Rootes and
British Major Automotive Companies: BMC (Morris, Leyland, Thorneycroft, Riley, Wolseley, MG) Austin (Austin, Vauxhall, Bedford, Bristol, Ashton-Evans, Healey, Vickers) Rootes (Standard, Triumph, AEC, Hillman, Humber, Sunbeam, Singer, Talbot) Saxon (Saxon, Rover, Jaguar, Alvis, Albion, Scammell, Jensen)
Ford of Britain
Rolls Royce (Rolls-Royce, Beardmore, Bentley, Knight) BSA (BSA, Daimler, Lanchester)
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 29, 2021 11:55:21 GMT
A New Jerusalem Part 18
The War Office's heavy armaments and armoured fighting vehicles paper had been full of details, as Barton had requested. He was beginning to form an opinion that, rather than overwhelming him with information as had been the practice during his initial days in office, the defence establishment was being quite carefully selective in the style of the reports he received. This paper, like several other recent offerings, contained greater depth of both the background to past developmental choices and analysis of enemy threats. Perhaps they thought it would succeed in ticking his boxes, so to speak, and ensure his approval. As things stood, he found himself in general agreement with most of the proposed development and procurement programmes in any case, but he found the implicit presumption that he could be influenced almost bemusing. In any case, the general recommendations of the paper were uncontroversial to the point of being too restrained in their ambition, and he made a note to this effect on the introductory page. Business as usual could not continue, not for any of the three forces. There needed to be consistent plans for the sustainable and gradual increase in both production and research and development programmes; the Army would get the money, but needed to lay out how it would build more tanks, more guns, more rockets and more armoured vehicles in the most efficient manner possible.
First and foremost to that end, there was the matter of the Chieftain and its production. It was not quite the unquestioned king of the battlefield as it had been even three years ago, but the Russian T-64 was still outmatched by it and the T-62, which would equip the majority of the Red Army's forces for at least the next decade, was simply out of its class, at least until such time as their proposed upgunning to their new 125mm occured. There were progressive upgrades planned for more powerful engines to address the Chieftain's only real Achilles heel of its speed, but they were unlikely to bear fruit before 1967. For the immediate time being, there did not seem to be a requirement for a dramatic upgrade of the Chieftain, but he did find the Vickers proposal for the production of a specialised 'Sovietised' variant quite intriguing. This would consist of a Chieftain modified to to look and fight like a T-64 for the equipment of the dedicated training regiments at the British Army Training Units in Canada, Australia, South Africa and India. Conducting large scale exercises against dissimilar enemy vehicles would certainly increase the efficiency and relative combat experience of the armoured force, even if it was something of an interim measure. He indicated his approval of the proposal for production of reserve stocks of tanks for combat replacement, prepositioning in Germany and the Middle East and mobilisation cadre regiments.
The opening section on tanks demonstrated the inherent issue in this challenge very well indeed. On numbers alone, the Army would complete replacement of the Centurion with the Chieftain in the Regular Army by next year and the TA in another four years, but development of a successor main battle tank was only in its very embryonic stages. Total active and reserve requirements for the Royalist light tank were likely to be met by 1967 and refurbishment runs for various earlier marks of the Chieftain were not likely to require more than a portion of the nation's tank production capacity, leaving Vickers in particular underused. Building for export was only part of the answer, even if it was a vital and welcome one; the other part could be found in those armoured vehicles derived from the Chieftain and the Conqueror. Whilst they were supporting players, all of them would assist in the overall goal of armoured dominance.
The uncovering of the Soviet T-68 heavy tank back in 1961 had been the cause of considerable contention for the Army, throwing a spanner in its plans for the fielding of an all-Chieftain force and leading to four key decisions. In the first instance, the early retirement of the Conqueror was promptly cancelled and production lines reopened, so that an interim measure could counter any perceived armoured advantage that Moscow sought to engineer. A programme for a new and upgraded version of the capable design had been initiated, with the initial proposed specifications now in front of the Prime Minister seeming to be quite impressive. The new tank, or ‘Super Conqueror’ as some American inspired draftsman at Vickers had dubbed it, was almost eighteen tons heavier. Most of that was taken up in fully modern spaced composite armour augmented by appliqué plates that made it the most heavily protected tank in the world, but it also sported a new 6”/50 main armament. The new high powered gun had been specially forged by the dwarven smiths of Grymark in their dragon-fired forge deep beneath the mountains of Scotland and, in trials, had successfully blown the turret clean off a simulated T-64 from almost two miles away. Orders for an initial 1240 tanks had been placed for initial production in 1965, with an option for an extension to equip the T.A. and further dedicated regular heavy armoured regiments. In light of these measures, there did not seem to be any necessity for a superheavy successor to the remaining wartime Dreadnoughts, now all deep in reserve save for the trio in the Middle East.
Unlike the Germans and Soviets and in common with the United States, Britain had never embraced the notion of the assault gun as a distinct weapon of battle during the Second World War, preferring the deployment of their copious numbers of medium tanks. This had carried over into the postwar era and Korea, where tanks had been commonly employed for direct fire support of infantry offensive and defensive action. The urban fighting in Seoul and Pyongyang had highlighted a role for heavy self propelled guns; Barton remembered the similar lessons of the breaking of the Siegfried Line and the Battle of Berlin. The prevalence of urban terrain in the new fighting ground of Northern Germany had lead to a confluence of thinking on the matter and the second major decision - the development of a specialised heavy assault gun using the Chieftain hull. With a main armament of a 5.25" naval gun bored out to 5.5" and mounted in a heavily defended fixed mount, the Champion assault gun combined lethal firepower with a low height and unsurpassed frontal armour protection. Adapting the Royal Navy's former standard destroyer gun to use on land had been more difficult than first envisaged and a production vehicle was not expected until 1966, but the interest of other states, particularly Sweden, had managed to keep the project from cancellation.
The third decision had been to order the experimental Coronet tank destroyer into full development. The Coronet was an absolutely brutal vehicle that bore a strong general resemblance to the Conqueror, with the primary difference being the position of the hulking turret, which sat towards the rear of the vehicle. The main armament of a 7.2” gun had proved capable of blowing off the turret of entire tanks during the lengthy testing process, but its major attribute was the versatility granted by its long range firepower. The British Army had never truly embraced the tank destroyer concept during the last war, as its predominant focus had been on offensive and expeditionary capacities in the long effort to liberate Europe and Asia from the Axis, rather than the more extensive role played by armoured warfare on the Eastern Front. However, with the defence of Germany and Central Europe from aggression being the paramount mission of the 1960s and beyond, the utility of defensive firepower was distinctly increased; their success in testing in the deserts of the Middle East and North Africa was something of the icing in the cake.
In the final decision, a more oblique approach had been initiated, using the most powerful arm of the British Army - the Royal Artillery. New shells and rocket warheads were being developed for the deployment of anti-tank mines. A single regiment of 6” medium guns could lay a minefield of 240 mines at a distance of 25 miles, whilst the heavier artillery could do so at even greater ranges and concentrations. Even more ambitious was the project to develop an airburst shell filled with improved conventional munitions to attack the thin top armour of enemy tanks, but this was somewhat less advanced than the mines. Finally, new HEAT and HESH shells were to be issued to self propelled field and medium regiments in small quantities for the direct fire role. All three of those purposes would involve the FV-236, the Army’s new heavy mobile gun. Based on the Chieftain chassis with a powerful 1000hp engine, it was armed with a 6"/60 gun, fired a new 100lb shell and protected by a new lightweight alusteel covered with composite armour. Its fire control, laying system and loader were both heavily automated and it was capable of operating fully sealed within an MBRC environment. The FV-236 could cross rivers swiftly with its amphibious kit and operating in both day and night with integrated dark vision sights. The gun was specially cooled to allow for very high rate of fire of 8 rounds a minute, with considerably higher rates in bursts, and had a maximum range of 45 miles using current supercharges and rocket assisted projectiles; further developments in propellant, propulsion and design of the base of the shell conducted in concert with the Swedes offered further increases in range. Accompanying the self propelled howitzer was an armoured ammunition resupply vehicle that could rapidly reload the FV-236 whilst being capable of traversing rough terrain at the same top speed of 42 miles per hour. There was a planned capacity to replace the gun with a 155mm version should the Atlantic Alliance artillery standardisation talks come to fruition, but progress on the matter was viewed as less than likely in the short term due to the strong preferences by the Italians, Austrians Germans for their 149mm and 150mm weapons. In any event, the FV-236 represented the way forward for the British Army, providing the most powerful medium general support gun for its heavy divisions and corps artillery brigades.
The rest of the Army's artillery park was in a good state, with both the 8" and 9.2" guns being fully modern late 1950s designs, the 125mm Light Gun leading the Free World in light field artillery and the multiple rocket launchers lying at the cutting edge of technological development. The procurement of the US 175mm guns would provide a useful longer range counter-battery capacity against the worrisome Soviet 180mm as well as being a politically astute measure - it would hopefully allow for a more advantageous agreement to be reached over the licenced American production of the 125mm guns. There was perhaps more possibility for reciprocal orders of the 12” and 16” superheavy mobile guns, which offered quite an improvement in performance over their own M65s.
Ultimately, though, Barton saw the way ahead as one of the maximal standardisation possible for the field army, which would entail reducing the number of active calibres to the most efficient level. When such a time came, there were some very interesting uses for a long range, highly accurate gun in the home defence of the British Isles. Nothing could, should or would be wasted in this process of rearmament, of that he was quite determined. To that end, the thousands of surplus 25pdrs and their vast stocks of ammunition were not simply being scrapped, but kept in war emergency storage, at least for the time being. There were some staff officers in the Royal Artillery who had proposed their use as infantry support guns, but their arguments had been defeated by the plain obsolescence of the type in the face of rapidly advancing technology; outside of another positional war like Korea, it was as moribund as the conventional anti-tank gun, despite the Soviets still fielding both.
If there was a need for direct fire support, it was more than filled by tanks, infantry carriers, rockets and mortars, at each end of the continuum of mobility and portability. It was those older guns in that middle that were past their prime. It was very clear that the future for the defensive anti-tank role clearly lay in the guided missile. Even the best of the old anti-tank pieces of the 40s were only effective in that role out to two thousand yards or so, which was covered easily by the newer recoilless guns at substantially less weight and exceeded by the anti tank guided weapons. The earlier weapons, the Vickers Vigilant and the Bristol Silver Shield, were being replaced by the formidable Fairey Swingfire, a wire guided missile with a range of 2.5 miles that theoretically outranged most known Soviet and Chinese tank guns. It was to be joined by a lighter, man-portable weapon, but work on the Saunders-Roe Green Apple had only recently begun. Significantly, the FV438 vehicle would give the Swingfire excellent mobility on a heavily armoured battlefield and some measure of protection. whilst its companion FV440 Strongbow. The Hawker-Siddeley Maelstrom was the heaviest anti-tank missile in the world and certainly capable of destroying any prospective enemy tanks at long range, but it was having quite a few teething problems regarding its launch speed and terminal guidance.
There was one exception to that issue of direct fire support - that of the airborne forces. This matter in particular was of considerable interest to Barton, as it offered a chance to square the circle of the Army's light forces. The airborne divisions were the Empire first reaction force, yet had not advanced in mobility or protection from their equivalents in the Second World War or Korea to any decisive extent once they had landed. The Soviets had made some alarming advances in this respect with their ASU-85s and the new armoured airborne fighting vehicles that were apparently under development. In the West, the Americans had lead the way with their M-92 Custer airborne light tanks and M-56 Scorpion self-propelled guns, but they were designed to support their paratroopers, who still fought as leg infantry. Project Prodigal, or the proposal for air mechanisation would combine elements of both approaches and extend them to suit the specific needs and capabilities of the British Empire. It consisted of the development of a family of 25 ton tracked airborne vehicles capable of parachute drops and air transport by the Armstong-Whitworth Atlas, Vickers Voyager, Hawker-Siddeley Skyblazer and Shorts Belfast jets of RAF Transport Command - a light tank armed with an autoloading high velocity 25pdr; an armoured carrier with the same 50mm autocannon as the MACV; a self propelled 125mm airborne artillery system; and a low profile assault gun/tank destroyer equipped with a 105mm gun. These four vehicles would be accompanied by other useful proposals, such as further developments of the the jumping jeep and a tracked belt-fed WOMBAT, and make use of the same design principles of advanced materials, compound armour and new lightweight engines.
Substantial amounts of the technology utilised in Prodigal could also be seen in the modernisation of the Army’s infantry vehicle fleet. There were some suggestions of aligning designation systems and terminology with the Americans, but Barton put an asterisk next to that; whilst cooperation with the allies was important, he did not want to see it supplant common sense naming conventions. An infantry carrier was once simply that - a carrier of troops, but was now an ‘armoured personnel carrier’, which seemed to be a sign of the times. On the other hand, he had a more sympathetic outlook for the US nomenclature of mechanized infantry, rather than introducing a new category of armoured infantry as some had mooted.
That last category had begun to emerge through the planned MACV, or Mechanised Armoured Combat Vehicle. This programme had its parallels in the US Army, other Free World forces and the Soviets. One could see the general family resemblance between the picture of the FV525 and the proposed airborne carrier, insofar as it looked like a callow boy standing next to his muscled and fully grown elder brother. At this stage of its development, it was a well armoured vehicle of a base 36 tons with both steel and composite armour and the capacity for further appliqué protection. The main armament of a 50mm automatic cannon, although a contentious choice, provided the capacity to take on any light armoured vehicle on the modern battlefield, whilst main battle tanks could even be successfully attacked from the flanks and low flying aircraft and helicopters menaced. It’s chief role was the transport of a full section of a dozen infantrymen under fire at a top road speed of 50mph and then provide direct support with its cannon, machine guns and other armament.
It would be accompanied into battle by the reliable FV432 Saxon, upgraded with additional armour, improved engines and internal modifications to provide better comfort for the carried infantry section. Full scale production of the Saxon was set to continue through the early 1970s in order to completely replace the old Knights and wartime carriers still used by some reserve units and to equip many support arms that employed soft-skin vehicles. To a large extent, the FV432 had also replaced the lighter FV401 Cambridge carriers, but the smaller vehicles still had a useful role, particularly for the Royal Machine Gun Corps and other combat support arms and they had slipped very comfortably into the niche filled by the Universal Carriers of wartime vintage in this respect. Whilst Barton felt that there was something of a role for an upgraded or modern vehicle in the 10 to 12 ton range, he did not see it as his role to foist a new vehicle upon the Army; should they determine they need it, then he would give his support.
The final section was on the new wheeled vehicles that the Army had set their hearts on. They offered one major capability that the more doughty tracked carriers could not - speed. Both the Centaur Infantry Mobility Vehicle (which sounded like some sort of motorised wheelchair) and the Comet Medium Armoured Vehicle were to be equipped with a supercharged engine capable of driving them at a top road speed of 75 miles per hour. Their role was to facilitate swift movement behind the immediate combat zone, particularly in Germany, which would rightly remain the preserve of the more heavily armoured tracked vehicles. They did offer some interesting capabilities for employment in Africa, Canada and Australia, where the tyranny of distance was a key factor in military calculations.
It was somewhat fitting to conclude the paper on that note, thought Barton, as he put the annotated paper in his completed tray and rose from his desk, for now the meeting of the Committee of Imperial Defence was nigh. The concerns of the individual Commonwealth military forces did differ from those of Britain in some certain areas and strategic requirements, but through consistent consultation, those of the Empire as a whole could be best promoted and developed.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 30, 2021 11:50:28 GMT
I'm going to put up some notes for this chapter, as usual.
After I do so, there are only two chapters to go - the CID meeting and a conclusion. As well as those, I'm going to go back and flesh out some earlier chapters with some additional scenes which I'll edit in after posting them up here for examination
Part 1: A bit more on Berlin Part 2: Newspaper Reactions to Labour victory Part 4: The Secret War Part 8: Frank Chat with Ambassador to USA Part 9: UKSF Part 10: Better Britain
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 3, 2021 18:18:53 GMT
A little preview of the addendum to Part 13, or the discussion of the RAF.
It will seem a bit jumpy, as some scenes flow differently in the text.
“In the first instance, we would select, form and train up an initial regiment sized force, preliminarily designated Paracommandos; the name is not set, but has a reflection on the Low Countries operating area. We’d secondly upgrade our general field transport and heavier armoured cars to the IMV and MAV respectively, procure more of the CVR (T) family of vehicles for the light armoured squadrons and introduced Saxons to appropriate roles alongside our tank squadrons. In terms of AA guns, the general request is for the Marksman and Sharpshooter, but also for an equivalent to the Vigilante. And Green Mace.”
“Well, they don’t propose to do things by halves, I’ll say that much.”
………
Appendix Three certainly did demonstrate a lot with its series of circles on maps of Britain and Western Europe. The air defence of the British Isles, by its very nature, involved protecting airspace over France, the Low Countries, Germany, the North Sea and Scandinavia. Fighter Command was not just a tactical defence of the Imperial motherland, but at the same time a strategic defence of its allies and a weapon of air supremacy over the Continent. The frontline was no longer Kent, but Jutland. In this way, the “Big Wing” of the last war looked to now have its potential moment in the sun, as ninety or so Supermarine Sunstars flying defensively over the North Sea could decisively turn the tide of an air battle over the Baltic with long range missile salvos.
Project Faithful was rather more interesting than the consequences of deployments. With the use of two of the RAF’s skyship aerocarriers at the right locations, they could not only deploy their own capable air groups at key locations, but also support additional Harrier wings and allow the shuttling and control of British and Commonwealth advanced trainers. These aircraft, assigned in mobilisation to RAF Tactical Weapons Units, allowed the Lightnings far more flexibility. It was all a question of coordination, which is where Faithful I came into play, combining the potent capacity of an airborne master command station with modern automated processing and a greatly expanded radar horizon. With new advances in computing engines, considerably more could be achieved, including the next stage, Faithful II, which would involve the airborne deployment of long range anti-aircraft and anti-missile batteries on RAF skyships operating off the East Coast.
…….
The Supermarine and Hawker-Siddeley fighter projects were not only highly promising, but quite revolutionary in their consequences. If they could replace a number of different types of fighter each, then the relative power of the Royal Air Force would rise, just as the Tornado promised to be a great leap from the Hunter. Each aircraft would not only deliver increased performance and advanced thrust vectoring, but the integration of new weapons, new avionics and new defence systems. This is what would add to their expense and the duration of their development, perhaps even more than projected.
……
“Why the Phantom? Because to win a war, we sometimes need to choose our battles, aye, and to lose them. Our aim is to have the strongest possible aviation industry, as it is a cornerstone of our defence. By buying Phantom now, we end up selling hundreds of relatively modern Spectres to the Middle East and South America at ultra low surplus prices, taking them out of the market for the F-4 or another American fighter jet in four or five years. We also gain the goodwill of the Americans when we are trying to sell them Harriers and the TSR-2, and they are already playing shy because we won’t buy the F-111. We’re trying to juggle the situation and persuade the Canadians to buy it instead, but they have their own price.”
“So, by letting in one American plane, we keep out others?”
“That’s the plan. Fact is that the Phantom is better than what we can put up in competition, namely the Merlin. Our fighter has the range, but theirs wins in every other respect. Hawker-Siddeley is large enough that it can wear the losses on the Merlin front without taking a financial body blow, particularly if it can sell the Harrier across the pond and get the cash from any licensing. Some of the other groups don’t have quite the same resilience, at this time.”
“Yes, preventing de Havilland from hitting turbulence before it can get the big orders for Tornado is something I agree with wholeheartedly, Prime Minister.”
“They’ll get by, particularly once their merger with Cammell-Laird is finalised. I’ve got Denis putting together some enticements to get Bristol and English-Electric to take the plunge for the same general purpose.”
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 4, 2021 14:38:45 GMT
Very canny by the PM there. as long as he can actually get the US to purchase something in return.
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 4, 2021 15:38:35 GMT
It isn’t much of a spoiler to say that it does work. The Americans buy the Harrier and TSR-2, the latter for a limited role as a strategic electronic warfare/recon plane. That leads to its own fuss and complications.
The Marines have an initial requirement for 720 Harriers in order to field 24 attack squadrons; the USN are potentially interested in an attack plane for their projected escort carriers and ASW carriers, which would amount to 20 squadrons; and the US Army is starting to make a lot of noises about close air support. The result of that is either the USAF adds a requirement for a VSTOL fighter/attack jet or the Army gets back in the game. Much, much more likely for the former.
This then opens up orders by Germany and Italy, among others.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 4, 2021 15:57:42 GMT
It isn’t much of a spoiler to say that it does work. The Americans buy the Harrier and TSR-2, the latter for a limited role as a strategic electronic warfare/recon plane. That leads to its own fuss and complications. The Marines have an initial requirement for 720 Harriers in order to field 24 attack squadrons; the USN are potentially interested in an attack plane for their projected escort carriers and ASW carriers, which would amount to 20 squadrons; and the US Army is starting to make a lot of noises about close air support. The result of that is either the USAF adds a requirement for a VSTOL fighter/attack jet or the Army gets back in the game. Much, much more likely for the former. This then opens up orders by Germany and Italy, among others.
Excellent news.
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 4, 2021 16:39:01 GMT
The majority of the American Harriers would be licences production in the manner of the Harrier in @ and the Canberra/B-57, but it is still an extremely useful order.
The Middle East surplus angle is just as important, particularly as the Americans have the Far East as their captive aviation market, along with a large part of South America. It amounts to 360 Spectres for Persia, 240 for Egypt and at least 600 for the Arab Union.
The largest British aircraft export markets outside of the Commonwealth are the Benelux countries, Scandinavia, the Balkans and the ABC countries of South America. France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden and Austria-Hungary largely produce their own aircraft, but do buy from Britain and the USA.
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 11, 2021 17:40:13 GMT
Sales Pitch
“All up, it was fairly much as expected, Prime Minister.”
“Yes, I quite agree, Admiral. Try to impress the new chum with their bells and whistles and sheer darn scale, then go for the selling pitch. They tried the usual with you and our delegation?”
“A guided tour of the Deep Command Center. Three miles down and it still is more lavish than anything we can offer, what with full television links to Saigon, Paris and Hawaii.”
“Count yourself lucky, I only got to see the Big Board and tea in the Tank; I’m just the politician, after all. Secretary Savage was a most kind host, though.”
“Yes, Prime Minister. General Taylor was the nice guy, talking about the benefits to joint operations of equipment integration, whilst Admiral Anderson did make the moves we predicted regarding the Med, but his heart really didn’t seem in it.”
“I liked General LeMay. He was all business and very serious, as a man in his position should be.”
“He does have that effect, sir, although I think they were hoping you’d be a bit more disconcerted.”
“He doesn’t suffer fools, doesn’t feel it necessary to be loved and knows war from the sharp end. I can certainly relate to that. No nonsense and getting the dashed job done. They did their prep, I’ll grant you that.”
Mountbatten nodded thoughtfully. Whilst the last three Prime Ministers had seen active service in the Great War and Churchill had risen high in the Territorials beforehand, Barton was the first PM to have been a general in over a century
“In any event, they were pleased that we agreed to confirm the Phantom deal. Between us and the Canadians, that will be their biggest aircraft deal since the war. Any bite on the Excaliburs?”
“Not officially, but my offer to have a squadron come over for next year’s fleet exercise got the level of interest we thought. They are fairly much wed to the Vigilante and the F-111 for their naval strike role, though.”
“Our refusal to bite on the F-111 for the RAF isn’t popular, but it simply doesn’t fill a role for us. I know it is intentional, you needn’t belabour that point, but they must see that we can’t abandon the Thunderbolt, anymore than we can drop our future planes for their Five Xs.”
“Apart from the CXX, of course.”
“Yes, naturally, Admiral. You sold me on it quite well before the election. I still want us to keep the channels open and exchange what is appropriate on the fighter projects, but the Lion serves our purposes much better than their A-X. Do we know any details about it?”
“There’s not too much to know at this point, sir, beyond the basic parameters - twin engines, large payload, armour and a 40mm Gatling.”
“The cousins do have a taste for excess, don’t they? They have been quite clear on their quid pro quos - Phantom for Harrier seems a done deal, but F-111 for TSR-2, on the other hand, does not.”
“Quite the quandary, Prime Minister. There is of course the other option - the Navy.”
“Perhaps.” Acquiring the F-111 for the RNAS would be a powerful augmentation to the Buccaneer fleet, albeit at a cost to potential procurement of the Supermarine Excalibur in the heavy strike role. The British plane had better performance, but the F-111 had a slightly better range to offset it. It would solve part of their maritime strike issue, but at a deleterious cost to British producers.
“In any case, try and hammer it out at the Combined Chiefs of Staff meeting tomorrow. I’ll have another talk with President Kennedy to see what they say to an expansion of our Phantom purchase through an order from the Argentines; that might sway them.”
“Will Buenos Aires come to the game, Prime Minister?”
“I think they will. We can sweeten matters for them with some of our surplus light cruisers.”
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 12, 2021 15:34:31 GMT
Sales Pitch “All up, it was fairly much as expected, Prime Minister.” “Yes, I quite agree, Admiral. Try to impress the new chum with their bells and whistles and sheer darn scale, then go for the selling pitch. They tried the usual with you and our delegation?” “A guided tour of the Deep Command Center. Three miles down and it still is more lavish than anything we can offer, what with full television links to Saigon, Paris and Hawaii.” “Count yourself lucky, I only got to see the Big Board and tea in the Tank; I’m just the politician, after all. Secretary Savage was a most kind host, though.” “Yes, Prime Minister. General Taylor was the nice guy, talking about the benefits to joint operations of equipment integration, whilst Admiral Anderson did make the moves we predicted regarding the Med, but his heart really didn’t seem in it.” “I liked General LeMay. He was all business and very serious, as a man in his position should be.” “He does have that effect, sir, although I think they were hoping you’d be a bit more disconcerted.” “He doesn’t suffer fools, doesn’t feel it necessary to be loved and knows war from the sharp end. I can certainly relate to that. No nonsense and getting the dashed job done. They did their prep, I’ll grant you that.” Mountbatten nodded thoughtfully. Whilst the last three Prime Ministers had seen active service in the Great War and Churchill had risen high in the Territorials beforehand, Barton was the first PM to have been a general in over a century “In any event, they were pleased that we agreed to confirm the Phantom deal. Between us and the Canadians, that will be their biggest aircraft deal since the war. Any bite on the Excaliburs?” “Not officially, but my offer to have a squadron come over for next year’s fleet exercise got the level of interest we thought. They are fairly much wed to the Vigilante and the F-111 for their naval strike role, though.” “Our refusal to bite on the F-111 for the RAF isn’t popular, but it simply doesn’t fill a role for us. I know it is intentional, you needn’t belabour that point, but they must see that we can’t abandon the Thunderbolt, anymore than we can drop our future planes for their Five Xs.” “Apart from the CXX, of course.” “Yes, naturally, Admiral. You sold me on it quite well before the election. I still want us to keep the channels open and exchange what is appropriate on the fighter projects, but the Lion serves our purposes much better than their A-X. Do we know any details about it?” “There’s not too much to know at this point, sir, beyond the basic parameters - twin engines, large payload, armour and a 40mm Gatling.” “The cousins do have a taste for excess, don’t they? They have been quite clear on their quid pro quos - Phantom for Harrier seems a done deal, but F-111 for TSR-2, on the other hand, does not.” “Quite the quandary, Prime Minister. There is of course the other option - the Navy.” “Perhaps.” Acquiring the F-111 for the RNAS would be a powerful augmentation to the Buccaneer fleet, albeit at a cost to potential procurement of the Supermarine Excalibur in the heavy strike role. The British plane had better performance, but the F-111 had a slightly better range to offset it. It would solve part of their maritime strike issue, but at a deleterious cost to British producers. “In any case, try and hammer it out at the Combined Chiefs of Staff meeting tomorrow. I’ll have another talk with President Kennedy to see what they say to an expansion of our Phantom purchase through an order from the Argentines; that might sway them.” “Will Buenos Aires come to the game, Prime Minister?” “I think they will. We can sweeten matters for them with some of our surplus light cruisers.”
A bit worried that the PM thinks LeMay is a rational guy but possibly he's a different personality in the DE universe. However sounds like their holding up their end well in resisting simply being dominated by the yanks.
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 12, 2021 16:37:10 GMT
Another little preview:
Every day, Barton would hear about wars of some description. The war they all strove to avoid, the hot war, and the innumerable cold wars around the world, raging in the brushfires of new nations and old empires alike. There was another war though, one just as vital and just as dangerous: the Secret War.
It spanned land, sea, air, space and more besides and on its success lay nothing less than the future survival of Britain. It encompassed the myriad projects of technology, espionage and sorcery that were undertaken to keep any edge possible against the baleful enemy to the east. It’s weapons were science, the arcane arts, human weakness and unspeakable bravery. Every day, there were thousands of men and women out there beyond the Iron Curtain putting their lives at risk so that others might live in peace. They were in Poland with the Home Army in the dark forests and grey cities, they were in the villages of Romania and the suffering prison lands of the Baltic and they were in the Red heart of the beast itself, in Soviet Russia. That vast imperial state was indeed a riddle wrapped in an enigma, with even the knowledge delivered unto them providing but a scintilla of insight into their path and their plans. The Secret Intelligence Service had a reputation as among the very best in the world at its game and his visits to the Circus had reinforced that strongly. He was intensely proud of those men out there in the shadows, as they were all heroes who would sadly never get their due.
Not even he knew where they all were for sure, nor Smiley for that matter, which was for the best. Of the current First XI, so to speak, Lothario was in the French Riviera, cultivating a female contact in the Union Corse; Cavalier was at his castle, preparing for the Brazilian expedition; Danger was in the West Indies with 17F; Chef was out in the South Pacific for some tests; Saint was in Geneva tracking down a Nazi scientist ring; Trotter was in Tokyo on a mission that only a mouse could do; Bonzo was in Dublin on the trail of that wicked woman; Galloper was out in exotic Angora running something in the Sublime Porte; Avenger and his girls were going after a drug smuggling racket in Lyonesse; Diamond was on the job right here in London; and Charlemagne was in Hollywood, ostensibly promoting his latest film whilst on the trail of Dr. Frankenstein. Whilst the codenames changed quite constantly, it was easier to envisage than the darned Double 0 system.
Another front was at home, where across the British Isles, the Security Services kept track of the many agents and illegals of the KGB who sought to bring down the state from within. There were 167 in London at last count, a number which suggested that the real tally could be quite higher, and more across the country. He had been quite surprised to learn that 29 had been quietly detained across the Empire since 1961 alone and a further 12 secretly tried and shot. Not inconsiderable parts of Britain remained off limits to all citizens of the Soviet bloc and indeed anyone who was not a British subject, all in the interests of security. This was not driven by paranoia, but the real threat posed by the grey men of the Red Army’s special forces, the Spetsnaz. The fates of the twenty five apprehended during the War of 1956 would remain buried with them in an unarmed lonely tract of the Highlands, but now the threat was much greater, according to…sources…in Moscow.
The threat of enemy action, sabotage and subterfuge within the British Isles though, was quite minimal and contained, at least compared to the Empire at large. Here, the Secret War crossed over with the more visible conflicts in Africa and Asia and the grander struggle for the hearts, minds and souls of what was being termed the Third World. On such fronts, his chief weapon was the Special Operations Executive, which, along with its various subsidiary organisations, shell companies and mercenary groups, had proved just as adept as it had in the war to the hilt against Nazism. Plausible deniability was the name of their game and they played it ruthlessly, as well as being something of a bridge to the less conventional types who he’d met with earlier. Their foes were SMERSH, KAOS and SPECTRE, to name but three; there had apparently been some sort of discount for capitalisation while registering the names of their nefarious organisations, Barton chuckled to himself.
The latest reports from the USSR had been what had sparked today’s conference, what with the noticeable increase in the detection and cataloguing Soviet superheroes, adventurers and special talents. Something was afoot and now was the time to do something about it…
“If something can be done.” Barton said softly to himself.
“Indeed, that is always the question, Prime Minister. The answer does depend on how far we are willing to go.”
He looked up sharply at the sepulchral tones that disturbed his musing. There in the door of his study stood an extremely tall, gaunt figure clad in black robes and a heavy cloak drawn tightly around him. He doffed his capotain hat, revealing his characteristic long black hair and the sickly, almost green pallor that came from his labours in the dark places. His eyes shone with a burning zeal that seemed to go well beyond fanaticism into something not quite human anymore, but such was the cost of staring too long into the abyss and having it stare back until it blinked and backed away uneasily. His mouth was set in a mirthless grimace that seemed to sap mirth and joy from any room. This was a name and a visage that struck fear into the black hearts of those who had long since convinced themselves that they were beyond fear
All in all, Barton quite liked the fellow.
“Ah, Witchfinder General! Glad you could make it.”
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 12, 2021 16:42:35 GMT
Sales Pitch “All up, it was fairly much as expected, Prime Minister.” “Yes, I quite agree, Admiral. Try to impress the new chum with their bells and whistles and sheer darn scale, then go for the selling pitch. They tried the usual with you and our delegation?” “A guided tour of the Deep Command Center. Three miles down and it still is more lavish than anything we can offer, what with full television links to Saigon, Paris and Hawaii.” “Count yourself lucky, I only got to see the Big Board and tea in the Tank; I’m just the politician, after all. Secretary Savage was a most kind host, though.” “Yes, Prime Minister. General Taylor was the nice guy, talking about the benefits to joint operations of equipment integration, whilst Admiral Anderson did make the moves we predicted regarding the Med, but his heart really didn’t seem in it.” “I liked General LeMay. He was all business and very serious, as a man in his position should be.” “He does have that effect, sir, although I think they were hoping you’d be a bit more disconcerted.” “He doesn’t suffer fools, doesn’t feel it necessary to be loved and knows war from the sharp end. I can certainly relate to that. No nonsense and getting the dashed job done. They did their prep, I’ll grant you that.” Mountbatten nodded thoughtfully. Whilst the last three Prime Ministers had seen active service in the Great War and Churchill had risen high in the Territorials beforehand, Barton was the first PM to have been a general in over a century “In any event, they were pleased that we agreed to confirm the Phantom deal. Between us and the Canadians, that will be their biggest aircraft deal since the war. Any bite on the Excaliburs?” “Not officially, but my offer to have a squadron come over for next year’s fleet exercise got the level of interest we thought. They are fairly much wed to the Vigilante and the F-111 for their naval strike role, though.” “Our refusal to bite on the F-111 for the RAF isn’t popular, but it simply doesn’t fill a role for us. I know it is intentional, you needn’t belabour that point, but they must see that we can’t abandon the Thunderbolt, anymore than we can drop our future planes for their Five Xs.” “Apart from the CXX, of course.” “Yes, naturally, Admiral. You sold me on it quite well before the election. I still want us to keep the channels open and exchange what is appropriate on the fighter projects, but the Lion serves our purposes much better than their A-X. Do we know any details about it?” “There’s not too much to know at this point, sir, beyond the basic parameters - twin engines, large payload, armour and a 40mm Gatling.” “The cousins do have a taste for excess, don’t they? They have been quite clear on their quid pro quos - Phantom for Harrier seems a done deal, but F-111 for TSR-2, on the other hand, does not.” “Quite the quandary, Prime Minister. There is of course the other option - the Navy.” “Perhaps.” Acquiring the F-111 for the RNAS would be a powerful augmentation to the Buccaneer fleet, albeit at a cost to potential procurement of the Supermarine Excalibur in the heavy strike role. The British plane had better performance, but the F-111 had a slightly better range to offset it. It would solve part of their maritime strike issue, but at a deleterious cost to British producers. “In any case, try and hammer it out at the Combined Chiefs of Staff meeting tomorrow. I’ll have another talk with President Kennedy to see what they say to an expansion of our Phantom purchase through an order from the Argentines; that might sway them.” “Will Buenos Aires come to the game, Prime Minister?” “I think they will. We can sweeten matters for them with some of our surplus light cruisers.” A bit worried that the PM thinks LeMay is a rational guy but possibly he's a different personality in the DE universe. However sounds like their holding up their end well in resisting simply being dominated by the yanks.
Steve, LeMay is much the same as who he is. Barton likes his directness and lack of finesse for its own sake, being a man given more to substance than semblance. As they see it, being dominated economically is the first step towards losing the capacity for independent action. It is an increasingly imbalanced relationship, but not one where the British feel they can simply throw in the towel.
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 12, 2021 18:15:48 GMT
If the First XI can be guessed correctly, I’ll be impressed.
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