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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 11, 2021 15:59:42 GMT
That would be very expensive on the levels discussed - 1152 x 125mm deployed with the BAOR when at its full strength. Stockpiles in Germany are currently equivalent to 3000 rounds per gun, which just over half of what is considered an acceptable level. Magic shells would involve a much more considerable wizardly engagement in military industry, but there will be a section on that coming soon.
Above and beyond the individual circumstances of shells, there is a fair bit more going on. The BAOR is emphasising mass, artillery and defensive warfare, whilst the Middle Eastern forces have a very different tactical environment.
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Post by lordroel on Feb 11, 2021 16:02:00 GMT
That would be very expensive on the levels discussed - 1152 x 125mm deployed with the BAOR when at its full strength. Stockpiles in Germany are currently equivalent to 3000 rounds per gun, which just over half of what is considered an acceptable level. Magic shells would involve a much more considerable wizardly engagement in military industry, but there will be a section on that coming soon. Above and beyond the individual circumstances of shells, there is a fair bit more going on. The BAOR is emphasising mass, artillery and defensive warfare, whilst the Middle Eastern forces have a very different tactical environment. What is the average yield of a nuclear shell in use by the British, does it depend on the size of the artillery.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 11, 2021 17:18:35 GMT
There are three types: Purple Dragon (9.2” and 5-25kt), Green Giant (8” and 0.5-10kt) and and Yellow Anvil (6” and 0.05-1kt), in addition to Blue Water, the earlier Silver Sword and Red Rover (an equivalent to Honest John).
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Post by lordroel on Feb 11, 2021 17:37:23 GMT
There are three types: Purple Dragon (9.2” and 5-25kt), Green Giant (8” and 0.5-10kt) and and Yellow Anvil (6” and 0.05-1kt), in addition to Blue Water, the earlier Silver Sword and Red Rover (an equivalent to Honest John). Also nuclear armed mortar rounds if that is possible ore would that be to small for a nuke.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 11, 2021 17:40:57 GMT
They are not only too small but it does not work in with their role, even for the heavy (6”) and superheavy (9.45”) mortars.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 14, 2021 12:06:39 GMT
“Very good; that does align with some of our other thinking, so we will examine the matter further. What next, Secretary of State for War?”
“Far East Land Forces, Prime Minister.”
“Field Marshal Carver, your initial requirements report did make for interesting reading.”
“Naturally, Prime Minister. We face a very different tactical environment in the Orient and have far less need for heavy forces and equipment as a result. In total, we will require 240 tanks and five regiments of medium and heavy artillery in order to bring our forces to full armament. In the event of a full regional war, we would need five divisions to carry out our mission - one in Borneo, one in Hong Kong, one in Singers and two in Malaya - provided we received appropriate Commonwealth reinforcements. On top of that, we need the equivalent of two divisions to carry out our role in the defence of South Vietnam and keep a division in Australia until their new units are trained. Our specific technical requests are largely related to the campaigns in Vietnam and Borneo; the new chemical agents are to replace older stock which has decayed in the heat of the tropics, for example.”
“That all seems rather straightforward. What would you say your most pressing needs are?”
“Men and aerial mobility, sir. Ours are battles and wars in the jungles, rice paddies and hills and there is no substitute for well supported light infantry. We experience a higher casualty rate as a function of that geography and the differing intensities of our campaigns and having more men able to rotate through the field is very valuable for morale, collective knowledge and experience and combat effectiveness. We’ll need at least eight more battalions by the end of next year. Just as important are helicopters and Rotodynes - as many as can be spared. It gives us a far more effective reaction time to Indonesian provocations in Borneo and neutralises enemy advantages in Vietnam.”
“We could address that last issue very quickly, Prime Minister. The Royal Flying Corps has completed the process of taking over two former RAF Rotodyne squadrons quite recently and they are equipped with the heavier armoured variant.”
“That does sound workable. I’ll also speak with the Secretary of State for Air; I do recall seeing quite a few Wessexes in storage when I was out at Boscombe Down. Would that be useful, Field Marshal?”
“Certainly, Prime Minister.”
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Post by lordroel on Feb 14, 2021 12:11:17 GMT
“Field Marshal Carver, your initial requirements report did make for interesting reading.” So Field Marshals are still a thing in the Dark Earth verse.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 14, 2021 12:33:18 GMT
Absolutely. They were also still a thing historically at this point for Chiefs of the General Staff and Chiefs of the Defence Staff.
Here, in 1964, with a larger army, it is not just limited to the Chief of the Imperial General Staff but is given to the commanders of the other major field army level commands:
HF: Field Marshal Sir Geoffrey Baker BAOR: Field Marshal Sir Richard Sharpe Middle East Command: Field Marshal Sir Richard Anderson Far East Command: Field Marshal Sir Michael Carver
The heads of the Canadian, Australian, South African and Indian armies are all Field Marshals.
Africa, India and Ceylon, the Mediterranean and the Atlantic are all four star commands.
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Post by lordroel on Feb 14, 2021 13:19:38 GMT
Absolutely. They were also still a thing historically at this point for Chiefs of the General Staff and Chiefs of the Defence Staff. Here, in 1964, with a larger army, it is not just limited to the Chief of the Imperial General Staff but is given to the commanders of the other major field army level commands: HF: Field Marshal Sir Geoffrey Baker BAOR: Field Marshal Sir Richard Sharpe Middle East Command: Field Marshal Sir Richard Anderson Far East Command: Field Marshal Sir Michael Carver The heads of the Canadian, Australian, South African and Indian armies are all Field Marshals. Africa, India and Ceylon, the Mediterranean and the Atlantic are all four star commands. Only those command, thus this means Admiral of the Fleet also excist.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 14, 2021 19:04:20 GMT
This is a meeting of British Army major commanders, whereby the RN and RAF aren’t involved. Both of them have their highest ranks, as historical, and as expanded in the Dark Earth context.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 15, 2021 11:55:33 GMT
The basic notion is that a field marshal level command goes to those areas that would be the equivalent of an army group in wartime.
There are a number of things going on thus far above and beyond the questions of larger numbers of top brass:
- Barton and Pendragon, rather than setting out the maximum level of spending and ordering the Army to cut its cloth to it, are intent on finding the optimum force size for the worst case scenario. - That then gives various options for prioritising force sizes, armaments, supplies and what type of equipment is needed. - It is a more risky and costly approach in some respects; with a less ambitious economic programme, it could easily be knocked to billyo by Vietnam. - This is very much still a military force structure built on universal national service and the reserves built up by it, in the manner of the US Army of the 1950s and the briefer British Army of the period before the Global Strategy Paper of ‘52 kicked into gear. - An unspoken thread through a lot of planning and discussion is “Wouldn’t it be much easier to cover all of these contingencies if we still had the British Indian Army at our exclusive disposal?” Outside of the World Wars, it didn’t see any huge usage beyond that of @, but it’s presence gave flexibility. - However, even that is fading, given the supplanting of specialist units for leg infantry. - The next section, Home Forces, sees the most noticeable differences...
As well as this operational spending and the planned procurement up to 1970, there are a few other R&D programmes that will start to mount as well: - The Chieftain replacement MBT - A universal SAM to replace both Thunderbird and Bloodhound - The full manifestation of the MACV - New artillery - Individual equipment - Airborne armoured vehicles, an airborne light tank and an airborne gun system
It will be interesting.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 16, 2021 14:29:13 GMT
A New Jerusalem Part 11
No responsibility lay greater upon the shoulders of the leader of any government than the defence of the realm and Stanley Barton certainly felt that today. Oh, the weight was never far from him on every day that he had spent in office thus far, as the Prime Minister's Gladstone bag was never far from him, but this day was somewhat different, more focused. This would be the initial special meeting of the Army Council to discuss strategy and prospective requirements prior to the development of the Defence White Paper, attended by the commanders-in-chief of all of the major British Army commands to provide for their perspectives in the great questions of armament and planning. He knew something of what they would seek in each case from Pendragon’s initial flying visits to their headquarters and their subsequent correspondence through the War Office and the Imperial General Staff. Sharpe in Germany wanted more medium and heavy artillery, tanks, helicopters and strike missiles, in addition to absolute priority on the new MACVs; these were all quite natural given the role of the British Army of the Rhine as Britain’s foremost field army. However, balancing it with the competing and overlapping needs of the other major commands in such a way that none were seriously left behind was going to be a tough goal. Sir Geoffrey Baker requested more tanks and helicopters for Home Forces, but above all emphasised the utility and advantages both tactical and strategic that would result from an increase in mobility, particularly from the proposed family of wheeled armoured fighting vehicles. Field Marshal Sir Richard Anderson in the Middle East was also extremely desirous of large numbers of mobile vehicles for his own command, however, in addition to long range artillery, upgraded air defence systems and of course more helicopters. Far East Command under Sir Michael Carver was the only Army command fighting no less than four active campaigns, including a full blown war in South Vietnam, and that did add substantial cachet to his requests for tanks, more artillery, long range electronic reconnaissance equipment, rocket artillery, increased stocks of chemical warfare agents and, naturally, a substantial increase in helicopters and Rotodynes.
In addition to these major and varying needs, the question of small arms also needed consideration. The preliminary consensus was that there was a pressing need for a modern light machine gun to replace the old reliable Brens, a new general purpose machine gun and a fully modern submachine gun for close quarter battle; there was general satisfaction with the Army's battle rifle and assault rifle. There was a growing perception that standardisation of fuel, weapon systems, spare parts and ammunition among the Allies was the way forward, with the potential for commonality seen as the way of the future. Perhaps the likes of the 125mm Light Gun would provide the path forward for Britain and its fellow allies in what some termed 'NATO', but it would be a considerable challenge to standardise the small arms calibres of so many different states. All in all, it would be an interesting process of carefully weighing competing priorities with the broader picture. He nodded to Pendragon that he was ready to begin.
“Very well, gentlemen. We have reviewed each of your initial submissions on equipment requirements. As the first order of business for today, we would like your positions on the necessary force requirements to carry out your assigned missions. Now, that doesn’t mean the bare minimum, but the level that would provide enough margin to address any foreseeable complications. Field Marshal Sharpe?”
“To successfully carry out the defence of Germany in the northern sector, we need the full 12 divisions, the TA round-out forces, our assigned brigade and battalion level units, the proposed heavy tank regiments and the full logistical train to support such a force. We estimate that casualty replacements will amount to a significant proportion of our full standing force, in the region of 2% per week, which is just within what we can handle. To take on and defeat the Russians, we need to firmly reestablish our qualitative edge in tanks and have more armour full stop, both in the field and as attritional reserves both at home and in in Europe. However, to really blunt their edge, there is one simple measure we can take - guns. If we move to a standardised divisional artillery brigade of three 6” and 8” self-propelled howitzer regiments, as the Germans effectively had in their panzer and panzergrenadier divisions in Warhammer last year, then we significantly outgun and significantly out range the Reds.”
“You’ve only just got the upgunned Abbots and have sung their praises to this point. What has changed to make you want to get rid of them?” Barton asked bluntly.
“Not get rid of them, Prime Minister, nor am I calling for it to implemented either immediately or universally. We can start with our armoured divisions, bringing them in line with the Americans, French and Germans. Only once our production of both guns and ammunition is sufficient should we consider the mechanised infantry. From there, if we decide on the heavy option, we shouldn’t waste the Abbots at all, but move them to the brigades as direct fire support with a secondary anti tank role, nominally to begin with.”
“An interesting proposal, but one where we’d have to examine the cost and see how the Commonwealth forces think. It would add to our ammunition requirements on one level, but on another, we already field both types.” Pendragon’s face was coolly neutral. “In any case, we wouldn’t be in any position to field the amount of new 6” equipments until 1970 or so, based on the projections in Appendix E of the Future Production Report.”
“Do we have anti-tank ammunition in 125mm yet?” Barton asked with a slightly raised eyebrow
“Only a relatively small stock at Larkhill, Prime Minister. The initial testing is very positive, but the main production focus thus far has been on HE and ACM; both of the special rounds will be ready in mid 1966.”
“Anything else apart from artillery and tanks, Field Marshal?”
“Rockets, missiles and helicopters in the main, as I wrote, along with the new wheeled APCs for my infantry. Mobility for the men and the ability to hit the enemy well beyond their effective range. We’re in the process of negotiating the precise operational circumstances of German support to our field forces under the Wartime Host Nation Support program and we should have one brigade-sized Unterstuetzungskommando for each of our four corps within four years. I’d like to begin discussions on the further integration of German forces into our own formations across the Northern Army Group in order to further increase our local knowledge and fighting power. In addition to the TA battalions attached to each division in their mobilised state, we will need at least another four battalions for line of communications security; the Parachute Regiment Group and the Commandos are better suited to general reserve. A brigade or two of Gurkhas would solve most of my remaining issues of light troops, which we need a lot of for urban combat. Northern Germany has plenty of towns and villages that we plan to use as strongpoints.”
“Unfortunately, I don’t think Nepal is quite large enough to provide that for every major command, but we can see what can be done. Middle East Land Forces?”
“To hold the Middle East against Soviet invasion, we would need a minimum of two corps and four heavy divisions, in addition to an airborne division and a Royal Marine division for rapid reaction and a pair of top line Imperial infantry divisions, such as Sikhs or Zulus. With planned Commonwealth reinforcements, the Israeli Army, the Arabs and Persians, it would be enough, provided the full assets of a field army with appropriate reinforcement of staff and headquarters units. If we couldn’t count on Arab cooperation and Turkish neutrality, we would have a problem, to put it mildly. In terms of equipment, our standing regional forces have sufficient armour for now, but could definitely benefit from substantially more long range artillery and helicopters. Our area of operations is the largest of any Command in the Imperial armies, which means we need reach and speed of manoeuvre. In the World Wars, we could count on cavalry, but now we need to go faster and further than any horse.”
“What would that entail in your view?”
“Specifically, I would like to see deployment of the Westland armed combat helicopter gunships when they enter service and either heavy gun or rocket artillery systems with the range to hit enemy rear targets of opportunity. In terms of movement, we have much the same need as the Desert Army in the last war - wheeled and tracked vehicles that can cross the desert at speed. That brings me onto perhaps my most pressing requirement.”
“What would that be, Field Marshal?” Barton held a steady gaze on Anderson, silent calculations spinning through his mind.
“Mobile air defence, Prime Minister. If I’ve got to push a fast column through to Damascus or Baghdad from the Galilee, similar to ‘56, then I need to be able to provide them with protection and not just depend on our fighters. They can’t be everywhere, after all. We know that the Reds have not just mobile guns like the Shilkas and Sparkas, but short and medium ranged guided missiles on tracked and wheeled vehicles; we need a similar capability due to the sheer range we must cover in our area of operations and how thinly our fighters would be spread.”
“Very good; that does align with some of our other thinking, so we will examine the matter further. What next, Secretary of State for War?”
“Far East Land Forces, Prime Minister.”
“Field Marshal Carver, your initial requirements report did make for interesting reading.”
“Naturally, Prime Minister. We face a very different tactical environment in the Orient and have far less need for heavy forces and equipment as a result. In total, we will require 240 tanks and five regiments of medium and heavy artillery in order to bring our forces to full armament. In the event of a full regional war, we would need five divisions to carry out our mission - one in Borneo, one in Hong Kong, one in Singers and two in Malaya - provided we received appropriate Commonwealth reinforcements. On top of that, we need the equivalent of two divisions to carry out our role in the defence of South Vietnam and keep a division in Australia until their new units are trained. Our specific technical requests are largely related to the campaigns in Vietnam and Borneo; the new chemical agents are to replace older stock which has decayed in the heat of the tropics, for example.”
“That all seems rather straightforward. What would you say your most pressing needs are?”
“Men and aerial mobility, sir. Ours are battles and wars in the jungles, rice paddies and hills and there is no substitute for well supported light infantry. We experience a higher casualty rate as a function of that geography and the differing intensities of our campaigns and having more men able to rotate through the field is very valuable for morale, collective knowledge and experience and combat effectiveness. We’ll need at least eight more battalions by the end of next year. Just as important are helicopters and Rotodynes - as many as can be spared. It gives us a far more effective reaction time to Indonesian provocations in Borneo and neutralises enemy advantages in Vietnam.”
“We could address that last issue very quickly, Prime Minister. The Royal Flying Corps has completed the process of taking over two former RAF Rotodyne squadrons quite recently and they are equipped with the heavier armoured variant.”
“That does sound workable. I’ll also speak with the Secretary of State for Air; I do recall seeing quite a few Wessexes in storage when I was out at Boscombe Down. Would that be useful, Field Marshal?”
“Certainly, Prime Minister.”
"Good. Now, onto Home Forces.”
“We don’t have the same frontline role, nor the same immediate threat as the combat commands, Prime Minister, but our position is just as vital. Our primary role are support of overseas deployed forces, training and replacement and the organisation of mobilisation cadre units, with a secondary role of home defence and coordination. In the former case, we command both Regular and TA independent units, as well as the ready reserve divisions organised using National Servicemen and specific training formations; none of those require additional equipment above and beyond that scheduled to be filtered down in the appropriate course of time. Whilst our main mission is to supply reinforcement of the field forces, we retain the capacity to generate combat-capable formations in the event of a protracted conflict or a lengthy period of mobilisation prior to that. To maintain this capacity, we do require stockpiles of modern equipment and sufficient ammunition, facilities and supplies for training. The absolute minimum force we require for the defence of the British Isles comprises the TA units attached to the twelve military regions and six mobile divisions - these formations would react to any airborne or seaborne attacks or unconventional operations by enemy special forces. The only real threat of invasion to the British Isles at this time is the Soviet Union and it is a distant one at that; however, whilst it may be unlikely in the extreme, the sheer numbers and capabilities deployed by Moscow mean that we need to be ready to respond to them. Their increases in the VDV and Naval Infantry present a potential threat, as do their rifle divisions. The most likely major contingency would be a limited raid on Scotland or Northern England rather than even the farcical German attempt of 1940, but even in that case, we've got a large amount of territory to cover in order to bring overwhelming force to bear on any landing zone. Home Forces also command Anti-Aircraft Command and Coastal Defences in circumstances of full mobilisation, but both of those are in the process of being phased out. To defend Britain, we don't necessarily need more tanks or even Chieftains in any urgency, as there are sufficient depot and training units above and beyond the TA armour assigned to the military regions. What we do need is very simple - increased numbers of helicopters. They do not even particularly need to be frontline aircraft, as home defence does not necessitate high levels of protection."
"Excellent, Field Marshal Baker. There should be the capacity to supply at least some older helicopters for your purposes; you may recall, Prime Minister, of the discussion we had regarding the disposition of the former Fleet Air Arm Wessex fleet?"
"Indeed. That could cover the requirement quite neatly. Well, this has all been extremely illuminating. Gentlemen, we shall endeavour to seek a solution that ensures that each command receives what it needs to execute its mission and to do so at an affordable expense and in a timely fashion. This White Paper will not involve any egregious cuts, on that you have my word."
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 16, 2021 16:19:41 GMT
What will basically happen as far as equipment is concerned is:
- The BAOR gets 80% of MACV production from 1968 until requirements met; 1000 additional Chieftains from both 1965 and 1966 productions to build stockpiles for REFORGER units, with discussion of divisional sets; replacement of armoured divisional artillery with 6” SP-70s and 125mm Abbots to brigade - MEC gets 50% of Tiger helos, first priority to US 175mm guns and four additional Thunderbird regiments; first preference on wheeled AFVs and increased stocks of current armoured cars - FEC gets 240 Chieftains, second priority to 175mm, equipment from home based rocket and heavy artillery units, 120 former RAF Rotodynes and helos and new EW system - Home Forces get heavily slowed delivery of Chieftains offset with more Centurions and lowest priority for modern artillery; former FAA Westland Wessex fleet and surplus 25pdrs to be transferred - Development of a tracked Thunderbird II system is to be given superpriority, along with work on a short range SAM that can fill the gap between the Skyflash MANPADS and the medium range PT.428; this will end up with something similar in performance to the historical Rapier (albeit with a faster Mach 3 missile) fielded on a platform akin to the SA-8.
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Post by lordroel on Feb 16, 2021 16:23:18 GMT
Are they like elite as the Gurkhas.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 16, 2021 17:09:36 GMT
Yes, they are, as previously touched upon in the orbat. Like the Gurkhas and Sikhs, among others, there are units in the British/Imperial Army and units in the South African/Dominion Army. There are similar units from New Zealand (Maori Regiment) and Canada, but not Australia, due to the combination of demography and history.
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