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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 8, 2020 5:47:18 GMT
I don't know if this is the right forum for it, but I wanted to create a thread on alternate developments of languages for any TLs in this board. If this isn't the right place, feel free to move it or lock it.
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Alternate Language Thread, as it suggests, is a thread where you can post the proposed name of an alternate language, the language family, what region it comes from and where its roots come from. Examples like this:
- Krakozhian
Language Family: Indo-European
Type: Slavic
Sub-type: South Slavic
Dialect: Eastern South Slavic
Language: Krakozhian
History: (insert here)
I'll start:
- Cambric
Language Family: Indo-European
Type: Germanic
Sub-type: West Germanic
Dialect: North Sea Germanic, Anglo-Frisian, Anglic (loanwords from Welsh), Cambric
History: During the infamous meeting between Richard III and his men on 13th of June, 1483, William Hastings attempted to defend himself against the treason charges meted against him by the King. An overreaction on both parties resulted in the accidental murder of William Hastings, causing the other conspirators to abandon their support for Richard III. A larger, more violent version of Buckingham's Uprising broke out, with the loyalist Yorkists under Richard III pitted against the rebellious Yorkists who now opposed him. The rebellion was short, but deadly, as both leaders of the rebellion (including Richard III himself) eventually died. Upon hearing of the news of the king's death, Henry Tudor attempted to sail to England to claim his throne, but one of the remaining Yorkists by the name of John de la Pole claimed the crown through blood lineage from both Edward IV and Richard III as a countermeasure. Settling for the familiar Welsh mountains, Henry Tudor would eventually proclaim himself as a rival king, though in the end he would find himself becoming the unexpected first King of Wales.
The Cambric language is derived from Middle English with loanwords of French origin being replaced with loanwords from the Welsh language, in which he was slightly familiar with it. It is also known as the Anglo-Cambric language as well, though modern day linguists had insisted that several new languages had sprouted from the same root being Middle English. Cambric's Irish counterpart, the Anglo-Hibernic (alternatively referred to as Hiberno-Anglic) likewise, does use Irish Gaelic loanwords to substitute words of French (or Norman origin).
- Hibernic
Language Family: Indo-European
Type: Germanic
Sub-type: West Germanic
Dialect: North Sea Germanic, Anglo-Frisian, Anglic (loanwords from Irish Gaelic), Hibernic
History: The evolution of the modern Hibernic language (though nicknamed Irish English), had its roots in the English colonization of parts of Ireland, though the Irish Pale as it was called, was the only strip of Ireland that was under direct English control until the de la Pole dynasty's decision to fully integrate Ireland into the ever expanding English Kingdom through massive settlements on Irish soil by English Protestants. Through intermarriage between English settlers and Irish inhabitants of the land of Ireland, as well as the failed attempts by the English settlers to learn the Irish Gaelic language, the evolution of their dialect of English (mostly Bristolian, though bits of the West Midlands dialect was thrown in), coupled with the adoption of Irish Gaelic loanwords, resulted in the birth of the Hibernic language.
- Xiamenese (Xiamenese Patua)
Language Family: Indo-European
Type: Italic
Sub-type: Romance
Dialect: Western Romance, Ibero-Romance, West Iberian, Xiamenese (loanwords from Hokkien)
History: During the heyday of the pirate raids in Asia, a Chinese pirate by the name of Lin Feng had nearly succeeded in capturing Manila from the Spaniards. In need of assistance with stopping Lin Feng's pirates, the Spaniards turned to the Ming Dynasty for assistance in capturing the pirate, and the naval commander of Fujian province offered the port of Xiamen to the Spaniards in exchange for Lin Feng. The Spaniards, through a lucky break, managed to capture Lin Feng by trapping his ships within Manila Harbour after a Spanish scout spotted the fleet while overseeing the construction of a nearby settlement west of Manila, in what is now Subic Bay. With Lin Feng's extradition to the Ming authorities, the Spaniards got the port of Xiamen and began to build a fort and a few more harbours to facilitate trade between the Spanish Empire and China.
Xiamenese got its start with the Spanish conquistadors' settlement in the port of Xiamen from Spanish Philippines, and while its Portuguese counterpart in Macau had also developed into a viable trade port, Spanish controlled Xiamen became the gateway into China for Spanish goods and silver coming from the New World. Spanish conquistadors had intermarried with local Chinese women (mostly Fukienese), and their offspring would learn both Hokkien and Spanish. However, to ease things up, it was decided that the Dominican and Franciscan monks would be sent to Xiamen in order to learn the Hokkien language to help with the conversion of the Fukienese residents of Xiamen to Catholicism. Also like Macau, Xiamen would see its fortunes rise and fall, with its resurgence being tied to gambling and real estate investment with their targeted clientele mainly Overseas Chinese from the Philippines, but Spaniards from Spain and wealthy Latin American tycoons are also known to invest in real estate in Xiamen.
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Post by american2006 on Oct 9, 2020 14:15:08 GMT
- Coluiamerican
Language Family: Indo-European
Type: Romance/Germanic
Sub-type: Anglican/Hispanic
Dialect: American
History: In the 1900s, American and British English began to split. After Mexico joined WWI on the side of the Central Powers and lost, the US took over Mexico. The Mexican Spanish and American English began to mix into Coluiamerican
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 9, 2020 14:17:20 GMT
I don't know if this is the right forum for it, but I wanted to create a thread on alternate developments of languages for any TLs in this board. If this isn't the right place, feel free to move it or lock it. Well as most Languages are crated way back in the past, i think this thread is okay. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 9, 2020 14:28:53 GMT
- Coluiamerican Language Family: Indo-European Type: Romance/Germanic Sub-type: Anglican/Hispanic Dialect: American History: In the 1900s, American and British English began to split. After Mexico joined WWI on the side of the Central Powers and lost, the US took over Mexico. The Mexican Spanish and American English began to mix into Coluiamerican Wouldn't the early 1900s be rather soon for a whole new language to emerge, though? I know of recent OTL examples like Africaans, but it experienced divergences from Dutch during the eighteenth century before being recognized as its own separate language in the twentieth century.
Although, I am interested in exploring what a distinctly North American language--perhaps with different dialects depending on whether you're in Canada, Mexico, or the good ole's U.S. proper--would probably look like? Even if such a thing materializes, I think it'll need a few centuries to branch off from English--and even then, recent advancements in global communications likely thwart that prospect by making language more universal than ever before.
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Post by american2006 on Oct 9, 2020 15:48:31 GMT
- Coluiamerican Language Family: Indo-European Type: Romance/Germanic Sub-type: Anglican/Hispanic Dialect: American History: In the 1900s, American and British English began to split. After Mexico joined WWI on the side of the Central Powers and lost, the US took over Mexico. The Mexican Spanish and American English began to mix into Coluiamerican Wouldn't the early 1900s be rather soon for a whole new language to emerge, though? I know of recent OTL examples like Africaans, but it experienced divergences from Dutch during the eighteenth century before being recognized as its own separate language in the twentieth century.
Although, I am interested in exploring what a distinctly North American language--perhaps with different dialects depending on whether you're in Canada, Mexico, or the good ole's U.S. proper--would probably look like? Even if such a thing materializes, I think it'll need a few centuries to branch off from English--and even then, recent advancements in global communications likely thwart that prospect by making language more universal than ever before.
I see what you say about it being soon, perhaps its best for a future scenario. Maybe it could be government instituted? Used to communicate between growing English and Spanish populations? It’s a lot like English in Post-Norman England, mixing languages. |
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Zyobot
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Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 9, 2020 16:03:16 GMT
Wouldn't the early 1900s be rather soon for a whole new language to emerge, though? I know of recent OTL examples like Africaans, but it experienced divergences from Dutch during the eighteenth century before being recognized as its own separate language in the twentieth century.
Although, I am interested in exploring what a distinctly North American language--perhaps with different dialects depending on whether you're in Canada, Mexico, or the good ole's U.S. proper--would probably look like? Even if such a thing materializes, I think it'll need a few centuries to branch off from English--and even then, recent advancements in global communications likely thwart that prospect by making language more universal than ever before.
I see what you say about it being soon, perhaps its best for a future scenario. Maybe it could be government instituted? Used to communicate between growing English and Spanish populations? It’s a lot like English in Post-Norman England, mixing languages. Considering the existence of emerging tongues like Spanglish, we probably have our own early iteration of Coluiamerican already. Now we just need to ensure that it becomes its own language somehow, and probably remains true to its American/Mexican linguistic origins as well. Which may prove difficult, considering how easy it is to borrow and exchange loanwords thanks to global communication (not to mention the probability that it inherits English's longstanding preponderance for borrowing vocabulary from all over the world). |
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Post by american2006 on Oct 10, 2020 19:39:16 GMT
I see what you say about it being soon, perhaps its best for a future scenario. Maybe it could be government instituted? Used to communicate between growing English and Spanish populations? It’s a lot like English in Post-Norman England, mixing languages. Considering the existence of emerging tongues like Spanglish, we probably have our own early iteration of Coluiamerican already. Now we just need to ensure that it becomes its own language somehow, and probably remains true to its American/Mexican linguistic origins as well. Which may prove difficult, considering how easy it is to borrow and exchange loanwords thanks to global communication (not to mention the probability that it inherits English's longstanding preponderance for borrowing vocabulary from all over the world). Although Spanglish would be a close equivalent, Coluiamerican is in my view, something that needs to be not understandable to English or Spanish readers, especially in Europe. Whether it be by mixing words (for example, Casa and House become Cause, Jugar and Play become Pugay) or some other means. Also, no more conjugation, because its confusing. All words ending in -ar, -er, or -ir in Spanish become ay, ey, or iry. |
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Post by american2006 on Oct 10, 2020 19:47:29 GMT
Further dialects of Coluiamerican:
-Quebecios, strong presence of French loan words, less Spanish influence
-First Nations Coluiamerica, strong presence of First Nations loan words, although French loanwords are prescent.
-Northeastern, less Spanish prescence, various German, Italian, Polish, and Dutch loanwords
-Southeast, very little Spanish prescence, distinct accent, 2nd most English of the dialects
-Texian, very strong English and Spanish prescences, although German words make the list as well. Most Spanish for dialects in the US
-Deseretian, very, very, strong English presence, near understandable to a British English speaker.
-Californian, strong presence of Spanish, English and Chinese, only dialect to adopt a new alphabet.
-Cascadian, strong presence of English, with some Japanese loanwords
-Mexican, strong Spanish presence, English and French in the mix.
Overall, the language is 60% words mixed between English and Spanish, 30% English loanwords, 10% Spanish loanwords, 3% German loanwords, 2% other European loanwords, 2% Chinese loanwords, 3% other languages (such as Hindi, Japanese, etc.)
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kyng
Consul General
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Post by kyng on Oct 11, 2020 0:18:10 GMT
Here's one:
- Anglo-Norse
Language Family: Indo-European
Type: Germanic
Sub-type: West Germanic
Dialect: Anglo-Frisian
Language: Anglo-Norse (evolution of Old English, with loanwords from Old Norse)
History: In AD 1066, Harald Hardrada wins the Battle of Stamford Bridge, defeating Harold Godwinson in battle. He then successfully repels an invasion from Duke William of Normandy at the Battle of Hastings, thus cementing his position as the new King of England. As a result of his victory, Old Norse becomes the language of the elite within England - and remains so for the next 300 years. During this time, the peasants simply continue speaking English - although, the language changes considerably over time, as it adopts more loanwords from Old Norse (and far fewer from French and Latin).
The result today is a language that looks not too dissimilar from Icelandic: most noticeably, Anglo-Norse continues to the letters 'ð' and 'þ' to represent 'th' sounds. Following the invention of the printing press, and the increasing English influence on the rest of the continent, other European languages adopted these letters into their own alphabets - largely for use in loanwords from Anglo-Norse. However, a few even fully accepted these letters into their native alphabets; for example, you'll find some Spanish texts that spell the word for blue as 'aþul', rather than 'azul'. Of course, this influence worked both ways, and Anglo-Norman did begin to absorb some French and Latin vocabulary, but still far short of OTL modern English (Anglo-Norse's vocabulary is roughly 15% Latin and 10% French, whereas OTL modern English's vocabulary is roughly 30% of each)
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 11, 2020 4:18:55 GMT
Here's one: - Anglo-NorseLanguage Family: Indo-European Type: Germanic Sub-type: West Germanic Dialect: Anglo-Frisian Language: Anglo-Norse (evolution of Old English, with loanwords from Old Norse) History: In AD 1066, Harald Hardrada wins the Battle of Stamford Bridge, defeating Harold Godwinson in battle. He then successfully repels an invasion from Duke William of Normandy at the Battle of Hastings, thus cementing his position as the new King of England. As a result of his victory, Old Norse becomes the language of the elite within England - and remains so for the next 300 years. During this time, the peasants simply continue speaking English - although, the language changes considerably over time, as it adopts more loanwords from Old Norse (and far fewer from French and Latin). The result today is a language that looks not too dissimilar from Icelandic: most noticeably, Anglo-Norse continues to the letters 'ð' and 'þ' to represent 'th' sounds. Following the invention of the printing press, and the increasing English influence on the rest of the continent, other European languages adopted these letters into their own alphabets - largely for use in loanwords from Anglo-Norse. However, a few even fully accepted these letters into their native alphabets; for example, you'll find some Spanish texts that spell the word for blue as 'aþul', rather than 'azul'. Of course, this influence worked both ways, and Anglo-Norman did begin to absorb some French and Latin vocabulary, but still far short of OTL modern English (Anglo-Norse's vocabulary is roughly 15% Latin and 10% French, whereas OTL modern English's vocabulary is roughly 30% of each) I wonder if today's Yorkshire English would have been similar to the Anglo-Norse language that would have been made in the event that Harald Hardrada had won the crown of England instead of William the Conqueror. Another one from me: --- - Lakonian Greek (Greco-Norse-Gothic Creole)Language Family: Indo-European Type: Hellenic (Hellenic Creole) Sub-type: Greek Dialect: Ionic-Attic, Doric, Tsakonian (loanwords from Crimean Gothic, Norse, and Old Church Slavonic) History: The rebellion of Giorgios Maniakes against the Byzantine Empire succeeds in overthrowing Constantine IX and as a result of the contributions made by the Varangian Guard in defeating Constantine's loyalist troops, Giorgios becomes Emperor. While he was mindful of the wealth that the Byzantines had accumulated over their existence, he also realized that his loyal Varangian guardsmen needed to be rewarded for helping him overthrow the previous Emperor. So he made an offer to a young Varangian Guard soldier by the name of Harald Hardrada for lands in either Crete or southern Greece, in the southernmost region of the Peloponnese. Though hesitant about accepting the offer because acceptance would have meant that he could no longer reclaim the throne of Norway. At the same time, other Varangian Guard soldiers were surprised and even excited about the prospect of acquiring warmer lands to farm and build new families. Thus Harald Hardrada accepted his patron's offer and he and his men would be granted the lands around the island of Crete. Over time, the Varangian Guard would eventually expand their holdings in mainland Greece, primarily in the Peloponnese region, giving birth to what would become the Lakonia Theme, which would grow into the autonomous Principality of Lakonia. The development of the Lakonian Greek creole was difficult to begin with, as the members of the Varangian Guard were mainly illiterate. Greek Orthodox monks were sent to Crete in order to teach the Varangian Guard soldiers the Greek language, although they had to learn how to read and write. While Harald Hardrada himself was semi-literate, he too had difficulty in learning the Greek language until Giorgios Maniakes had decided to send a few hundred Crimean Gothic settlers from Crimea into Lakonia to help bolster the new Lakonian population there. While the Crimean Goths understood the Greek alphabet, their Norse cousins had to rely on runes until they eventually understood the Greek alphabet. Unlike the other Greek dialects, the Lakonian Greek creole had adopted loanwords from Old Norse and Crimean Gothic. Over time though, another creole from within Lakonian Greek creole would be developed, called Morensk, which is basically the Norse counterpart to Lakonian Greek. Morensk would become the Germanic mirror version of Lakonian Greek, with Greek loanwords inserted into this hybrid language as well. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 11, 2020 12:00:12 GMT
Here's one: - Anglo-NorseLanguage Family: Indo-European Type: Germanic Sub-type: West Germanic Dialect: Anglo-Frisian Language: Anglo-Norse (evolution of Old English, with loanwords from Old Norse) History: In AD 1066, Harald Hardrada wins the Battle of Stamford Bridge, defeating Harold Godwinson in battle. He then successfully repels an invasion from Duke William of Normandy at the Battle of Hastings, thus cementing his position as the new King of England. As a result of his victory, Old Norse becomes the language of the elite within England - and remains so for the next 300 years. During this time, the peasants simply continue speaking English - although, the language changes considerably over time, as it adopts more loanwords from Old Norse (and far fewer from French and Latin). The result today is a language that looks not too dissimilar from Icelandic: most noticeably, Anglo-Norse continues to the letters 'ð' and 'þ' to represent 'th' sounds. Following the invention of the printing press, and the increasing English influence on the rest of the continent, other European languages adopted these letters into their own alphabets - largely for use in loanwords from Anglo-Norse. However, a few even fully accepted these letters into their native alphabets; for example, you'll find some Spanish texts that spell the word for blue as 'aþul', rather than 'azul'. Of course, this influence worked both ways, and Anglo-Norman did begin to absorb some French and Latin vocabulary, but still far short of OTL modern English (Anglo-Norse's vocabulary is roughly 15% Latin and 10% French, whereas OTL modern English's vocabulary is roughly 30% of each) I wonder if today's Yorkshire English would have been similar to the Anglo-Norse language that would have been made in the event that Harald Hardrada had won the crown of England instead of William the Conqueror. Another one from me: --- - Lakonian Greek (Greco-Norse-Gothic Creole)Language Family: Indo-European Type: Hellenic (Hellenic Creole) Sub-type: Greek Dialect: Ionic-Attic, Doric, Tsakonian (loanwords from Crimean Gothic, Norse, and Old Church Slavonic) History: The rebellion of Giorgios Maniakes against the Byzantine Empire succeeds in overthrowing Constantine IX and as a result of the contributions made by the Varangian Guard in defeating Constantine's loyalist troops, Giorgios becomes Emperor. While he was mindful of the wealth that the Byzantines had accumulated over their existence, he also realized that his loyal Varangian guardsmen needed to be rewarded for helping him overthrow the previous Emperor. So he made an offer to a young Varangian Guard soldier by the name of Harald Hardrada for lands in either Crete or southern Greece, in the southernmost region of the Peloponnese. Though hesitant about accepting the offer because acceptance would have meant that he could no longer reclaim the throne of Norway. At the same time, other Varangian Guard soldiers were surprised and even excited about the prospect of acquiring warmer lands to farm and build new families. Thus Harald Hardrada accepted his patron's offer and he and his men would be granted the lands around the island of Crete. Over time, the Varangian Guard would eventually expand their holdings in mainland Greece, primarily in the Peloponnese region, giving birth to what would become the Lakonia Theme, which would grow into the autonomous Principality of Lakonia. The development of the Lakonian Greek creole was difficult to begin with, as the members of the Varangian Guard were mainly illiterate. Greek Orthodox monks were sent to Crete in order to teach the Varangian Guard soldiers the Greek language, although they had to learn how to read and write. While Harald Hardrada himself was semi-literate, he too had difficulty in learning the Greek language until Giorgios Maniakes had decided to send a few hundred Crimean Gothic settlers from Crimea into Lakonia to help bolster the new Lakonian population there. While the Crimean Goths understood the Greek alphabet, their Norse cousins had to rely on runes until they eventually understood the Greek alphabet. Unlike the other Greek dialects, the Lakonian Greek creole had adopted loanwords from Old Norse and Crimean Gothic. Over time though, another creole from within Lakonian Greek creole would be developed, called Morensk, which is basically the Norse counterpart to Lakonian Greek. Morensk would become the Germanic mirror version of Lakonian Greek, with Greek loanwords inserted into this hybrid language as well.
Interesting idea. I've often wondered whether of Manikaes had succeeded in making himself emperor the empire might have avoided the OTL disaster against the Turks and other invaders towards the end of the century. If he could have founded a strong new dynasty and kept the army well supported that would have made a hell of a difference to world history.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 11, 2020 21:44:36 GMT
Although Spanglish would be a close equivalent, Coluiamerican is in my view, something that needs to be not understandable to English or Spanish readers, especially in Europe. Whether it be by mixing words (for example, Casa and House become Cause, Jugar and Play become Pugay) or some other means. Also, no more conjugation, because its confusing. All words ending in -ar, -er, or -ir in Spanish become ay, ey, or iry. Understandable. Here's one: - Anglo-NorseLanguage Family: Indo-European Type: Germanic Sub-type: West Germanic Dialect: Anglo-Frisian Language: Anglo-Norse (evolution of Old English, with loanwords from Old Norse) History: In AD 1066, Harald Hardrada wins the Battle of Stamford Bridge, defeating Harold Godwinson in battle. He then successfully repels an invasion from Duke William of Normandy at the Battle of Hastings, thus cementing his position as the new King of England. As a result of his victory, Old Norse becomes the language of the elite within England - and remains so for the next 300 years. During this time, the peasants simply continue speaking English - although, the language changes considerably over time, as it adopts more loanwords from Old Norse (and far fewer from French and Latin). The result today is a language that looks not too dissimilar from Icelandic: most noticeably, Anglo-Norse continues to the letters 'ð' and 'þ' to represent 'th' sounds. Following the invention of the printing press, and the increasing English influence on the rest of the continent, other European languages adopted these letters into their own alphabets - largely for use in loanwords from Anglo-Norse. However, a few even fully accepted these letters into their native alphabets; for example, you'll find some Spanish texts that spell the word for blue as 'aþul', rather than 'azul'. Of course, this influence worked both ways, and Anglo-Norman did begin to absorb some French and Latin vocabulary, but still far short of OTL modern English (Anglo-Norse's vocabulary is roughly 15% Latin and 10% French, whereas OTL modern English's vocabulary is roughly 30% of each) Now that's an intriguing take on how English can remain mostly Germanic, though whether it'll remain this way up until ATL 2020 seems like an open question to me. Given how butterflies may have significantly altered or even gotten rid of the prospect of it happening, I wonder if Anglo-Norman could develop the potential to spread over the globe and absorb loanwords left, right and center similar to OTL English? Much of that probably rests on whether a critical mass of its speakers come into contact with peoples all over the world and bring their terminology back with them, which is again made uncertain due to this early divergence in English history. On Anglo-Norse itself, having specific letters to represent th sounds is reasonable, especially when it's hard to immediately differentiate between the hard and soft versions of that combination without outside context (e.g. compare the sound made at the beginning of " thorn" to the sound at the beginning of " that"). As far as general rules go, could it end up looking more like OTL German in terms of grammar--perhaps having inflection, grammatical gender and arbitrarily long compound words as some of its more notable features? Personally, I don't like the former two as much, though I do wish that the third one were a thing in OTL English  . |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 11, 2020 23:40:29 GMT
I wonder if today's Yorkshire English would have been similar to the Anglo-Norse language that would have been made in the event that Harald Hardrada had won the crown of England instead of William the Conqueror. Another one from me: --- - Lakonian Greek (Greco-Norse-Gothic Creole)Language Family: Indo-European Type: Hellenic (Hellenic Creole) Sub-type: Greek Dialect: Ionic-Attic, Doric, Tsakonian (loanwords from Crimean Gothic, Norse, and Old Church Slavonic) History: The rebellion of Giorgios Maniakes against the Byzantine Empire succeeds in overthrowing Constantine IX and as a result of the contributions made by the Varangian Guard in defeating Constantine's loyalist troops, Giorgios becomes Emperor. While he was mindful of the wealth that the Byzantines had accumulated over their existence, he also realized that his loyal Varangian guardsmen needed to be rewarded for helping him overthrow the previous Emperor. So he made an offer to a young Varangian Guard soldier by the name of Harald Hardrada for lands in either Crete or southern Greece, in the southernmost region of the Peloponnese. Though hesitant about accepting the offer because acceptance would have meant that he could no longer reclaim the throne of Norway. At the same time, other Varangian Guard soldiers were surprised and even excited about the prospect of acquiring warmer lands to farm and build new families. Thus Harald Hardrada accepted his patron's offer and he and his men would be granted the lands around the island of Crete. Over time, the Varangian Guard would eventually expand their holdings in mainland Greece, primarily in the Peloponnese region, giving birth to what would become the Lakonia Theme, which would grow into the autonomous Principality of Lakonia. The development of the Lakonian Greek creole was difficult to begin with, as the members of the Varangian Guard were mainly illiterate. Greek Orthodox monks were sent to Crete in order to teach the Varangian Guard soldiers the Greek language, although they had to learn how to read and write. While Harald Hardrada himself was semi-literate, he too had difficulty in learning the Greek language until Giorgios Maniakes had decided to send a few hundred Crimean Gothic settlers from Crimea into Lakonia to help bolster the new Lakonian population there. While the Crimean Goths understood the Greek alphabet, their Norse cousins had to rely on runes until they eventually understood the Greek alphabet. Unlike the other Greek dialects, the Lakonian Greek creole had adopted loanwords from Old Norse and Crimean Gothic. Over time though, another creole from within Lakonian Greek creole would be developed, called Morensk, which is basically the Norse counterpart to Lakonian Greek. Morensk would become the Germanic mirror version of Lakonian Greek, with Greek loanwords inserted into this hybrid language as well.
Interesting idea. I've often wondered whether of Manikaes had succeeded in making himself emperor the empire might have avoided the OTL disaster against the Turks and other invaders towards the end of the century. If he could have founded a strong new dynasty and kept the army well supported that would have made a hell of a difference to world history.
I would have thought that a Maniakean dynasty would not be so different from all the other Byzantine dynasties, but his close friendship with the Varangian Guard soldiers serving under him could be a catalyst for a possible future Byzantine cultural emission into Scandinavia through Kievan Rus. Alternatively on the other hand, another possible idea for the possible Byzantine alternate version of "Normandy" would have been Crimea since the Crimean Gothic population resides there. If the Varangian Guard had settled there instead of Crete, you might have seen a fusion of Norse and Crimean Gothic culture in that entity alone. But then again, Crete and the Peloponnesian Peninsula are better sites for a Byzantine Norse version of Normandy. Additionally, Anatolia might also be a good site for an alternate Byzantine Norse "Normandy" too. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 12, 2020 14:36:04 GMT
Interesting idea. I've often wondered whether of Manikaes had succeeded in making himself emperor the empire might have avoided the OTL disaster against the Turks and other invaders towards the end of the century. If he could have founded a strong new dynasty and kept the army well supported that would have made a hell of a difference to world history.
I would have thought that a Maniakean dynasty would not be so different from all the other Byzantine dynasties, but his close friendship with the Varangian Guard soldiers serving under him could be a catalyst for a possible future Byzantine cultural emission into Scandinavia through Kievan Rus. Alternatively on the other hand, another possible idea for the possible Byzantine alternate version of "Normandy" would have been Crimea since the Crimean Gothic population resides there. If the Varangian Guard had settled there instead of Crete, you might have seen a fusion of Norse and Crimean Gothic culture in that entity alone. But then again, Crete and the Peloponnesian Peninsula are better sites for a Byzantine Norse version of Normandy. Additionally, Anatolia might also be a good site for an alternate Byzantine Norse "Normandy" too.
Probably not but I'm thinking of the timing. Having a vigerous new dynasty in charge when the Turks - and possibly Normans and others - come calling rather than the chaotic mess that the Macedonian dynasty declined into and the interim that was in place when the Turks arrived. In such a case it might be Byzantium holding most of S Italy and possibly reclaiming Sicily then rebuffing Turkish attacks. On the other hand in such a TL the western crusades might be targeted specifically against Byzantium.
Not sure whether Manikaes would have wanted to set up what was a private kingdom for the Varangians inside the empire. especially given its not so long ago that Russ attacks were a serious problem. Unless he's so mistrustful of the current establishment and nobility that he decides its a way to secure additional loyal troops.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 22, 2020 1:48:19 GMT
Bolghar Tele (Oghur Turkic Bulgar language)
Language Family: Turkic
Type: Oghuric
Sub-Type: Bulgar
Dialect: (Same as above)
Language: (Same as sub-type)
History: In a different set of events, the Khazars never end up becoming the dominant power in the Eurasian steppe and instead it was the Bulgars of Khan Kubrat who emerged as the dominant power of the steppe instead. Controlling the choke points of the Eurasian trade routes, the Bolghars had also emerged as a commercial giant that controlled the trade between Europe and Asia, with the Byzantines and the Sassanians using them as their intermediary. Though they only managed to control the steppes, their foray into the lands of the East Slavs had exposed the Bulgars to a different culture.
The Bolghar Tele, or the Bulgar language, is basically the language of the Bulgars if Old Great Bulgaria (the precursor to Volga Bulgaria and modern Bulgaria) had survived and the Khazars had been split apart. It is also the ancestor of the OTL Chuvash language, though for this purpose, Bolghar Tele is the only surviving branch of the Oghur dialect of the Turkic language.
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