stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 24, 2020 14:51:38 GMT
simon darkshade , Interesting. I would be rather surprised that those two [The Benny Hill Show & The Two Ronnies] being made in the DEU as their pretty risque, especially the former.
Good point that the presence of real life characters - such as Doctor Who - would make a TV series on them unlikely. Also that possibly markedly less immigration from the empire and the presence of intelligent races on other worlds could reduce levels of racism.
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 24, 2020 15:04:00 GMT
Steve Both Benny Hill and the Two Ronnies could get fairly ribald, but that evolved over time, so that the late 70s/early 80s material was a fair bit more 'naughty' than that of the 1960s. In that, they reflected social change rather than driving it in my view. There is certainly a big niche for variety entertainment in the 1960s, which is where I see them fitting in. Some real life characters will get film and television adaptions - Count Dracula isn't a fan of Bram Stoker's literary treatment of him, but had a bemused appreciation of Bela Lugosi's interpretation of him to the point of paying him a (rather terrifying) impromptu late night visit. However, Dracula has not done the same to Christopher Lee, as he'd be quite the different proposition on Dark Earth  . But the likes of Doctor Who and certain other figures don't translate well to a television series, given their position close to the British authorities and Establishment; the Doctor's relationship in Dark Earth is close to his UNIT days in some ways. Quatermass, Adamant and others are figures who work within the semi-secret ranks of Very Important Stuff and a televisual adaption would be frowned upon. You've hit the nail on the head regarding racism - it is the dual effect of not having the same immediacy of immigration + what I believe would be the natural human reaction to bona fide Extraterrestrial life. Even the presence of other intelligence species on Earth beyond hominids would cause enough difference of views and opinion over millenia. |
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 25, 2020 11:54:26 GMT
A few notes on British television in the 1960s
- There is still a BBC monopoly with BBC 1 and BBC 2
- However, thought is being given to a third BBC channel and there is a big debate about the possibility of a commercial television broadcast licence
- Restrictions on airing hours are more extensive, screening from 0700 to 0000
Other 1960s television programmes likely to make an appearance
Billy Bunter
Bird's Eye View
Captain Pugwash
Come Dancing
Crackerjack
Dr. Finlay's Casebook
Family Affairs
Gardener's World
Ghost Squad
How We Used to Live
Late Night Line Up
Murder Bag
Opportunity Knocks
Redcap
Sunday Night at the London Palladium
Tomorrow's World
- It is likely that quite a few well known children's stories will see colour adaptations in this decade
- I'd envisage an expensive live-action colour version of the Chronicles of Narnia will make it onto television from 1965
- Dad's Army would be a little bit different in tone
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 25, 2020 15:06:36 GMT
I’m just browsing through an old article on British identity. It makes the argument, from historian Linda Colley, that the essential roots of British identity came from “warfare, the Protestant faith, industry and the empire”.
It then goes on:
“ Two world wars, the BBC, a reasonably popular monarchy, mining and manufacturing communities that shared trade unions and political aims; by the time I was born, in the closing months of the second world war, British identity had never been stronger or thicker, accreting layer by layer since 1707. Soon after, the National Health Service and the welfare state arrived: the cherry on the crumbling cake, the ‘fairer Britain’ “
This fairly much goes along with my thinking in Dark Earth, along a few others: shared history, general national pride in achievements (sporting, scientific and more), genuinely national leaders and symbols, language and glory. Add those to an extremely popular monarchy, common faith, Empire, industry, the experience of two World Wars, common unions, parties and movements and the welfare state and there is quite the strong mix.
In that light, I can’t really see Welsh, Scottish or Lyonesse nationalism emerging in the same way as it did in @ in the 1950s-1970s. I’m not quite as sure about Irish nationalism, however there isn’t quite the same experiences and issues as in @. I will include some general notes on Ireland from my archive:
“Catholics? They’re a reasonable sized minority out on the West Coast, but most of the country is solid Church of Ireland; fewer than one in five would be Catholics, if I remember right. It has been ever since the Tudors.”
“That sounds like quite the opposite to my Ireland. It would have caused fewer troubles over the years.”
“Most probably. The last time there was any rebellion or trouble over there was in the days of William and Mary. It simply isn’t something that would happen in modern Britain.”
- Lack of the basis for the Troubles
- No Cromwellian conquest and legacy thereof
- No major famines after 1740; there is a major rise in emigration in the late 1840s, but fewer deaths
- Greater Irish Catholic emigration to the Americas in the manner of the Highland Clearances
- Earlier Catholic emancipation
- Irish home rule movement never takes off the ground in the Victorian period and Irish republicanism is virtually stillborn, with the result of no Irish Home Rule Crisis, no Easter Rising, no Civil War...
- A different development of Irish nationalism, which is subsumed under a wider British identity in a similar manner to Scottish and Welsh nationalism. Ireland would still suffer oppressed in the Early Modern period due to broader issues beyond religious sectarianism, but some of the wind would be taken out of some sails.
- Decline of Irish Gaelic to niche status, along the lines of what occurred historically, but without the boost supplied by politics
- There are many, many consequences on the World Wars from having all of Ireland in the United Kingdom
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 25, 2020 20:25:51 GMT
Catching up and some interesting stuff there. A considerably different Ireland as you say. Would suspect that as you say pro-independence movements in any of the home nations would be even weaker than they were OTL in the 60's and 70's, which was pretty irrelevant.
One other programme I suspect wouldn't be on would be Dave Allen with his mocking of authority and tradition. 
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 26, 2020 10:40:23 GMT
Steve
I think that Scottish and Welsh nationalism doesn’t really raise its head whilst there is more of a strong British identity unifying them together. Separatism generally tends to rise up in declining or weaker nation states and even less when the region in question is doing well economically. I’d generally think that would be the case for Ireland as well, give the different circumstances, but they would be the “strongest” of all the nationalist/separatist movements in the Home Nations.
As an interesting side note, the largest immigrant group in Britain as of 1966/67 would still be Poles.
You are right on Dave Allen; his schtick wouldn’t be a starter.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 8, 2021 11:27:10 GMT
- Irish home rule movement never takes off the ground in the Victorian period and Irish republicanism is virtually stillborn, with the result of no Irish Home Rule Crisis, no Easter Rising, no Civil War... No IRA then. |
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 8, 2021 19:17:27 GMT
No, there isn’t an Irish Republican Army or anything close to it, nor the Fenians and IRB before them in the 19th century.
There is another IRA internationally...
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 8, 2021 19:19:22 GMT
No, there isn’t an Irish Republican Army or anything close to it, nor the Fenians and IRB before them in the 19th century. There is another IRA internationally... So not terrorist organization that wants something independent from the British then. |
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 8, 2021 19:39:53 GMT
No, as said above, there isn’t a basis for Irish republicanism in the circumstances outlined and thus there aren’t any such terrorist groups, any more than there were genuine Scottish or Welsh terrorist groups at this time. There are criminal groups in Ireland, but none with a political tinge.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 31, 2021 11:49:45 GMT
Projected British Military Procurement 1967-1970
1967: £13,053,598,477
1968: £13,696,750,660
1969: £14,481,174,985
1970: £15,412,116,373
1967
Army: 3916 million (30%)
RN: 4438 million (34%)
RAF: 4699 million (36%)
1968
Army: 3698 million (27%)
RN: 4794 million (35%)
RAF: 5205 million (38%)
1969
Army: 4127 million (28.5%)
RN: 4924 million (34%)
RAF: 5430 (37.5%)
1970
Army: 4469 million (29%)
RN: 5086 million (33%)
RAF: 5857 million (38%)
Service Budgets in this period are divided along the following ratios:
Personnel: 30%
Operations and Maintenance: 30%
Procurement: 25%
Research and Development: 12.5%
Other: 2.5%
It is anticipated that further operational funding for Vietnam would be drawn from direct appropriations.
Therefore, appropriations are as follows:
Army: 4539 million
RN: 6157 million
RAF: 6357 million
Nuclear Forces
800 million
Skybolt: 50 million development + 250 million purchase
Solaris SLBM: 125 million development + 375 million purchase
Royal Navy
6077 million
Ships: 4142 million
2 CVN x 200 million: 400
3 BBGN x 360 million: 1080
6 CGN x 90 million: 540
12 SSN x 64 million: 768
6 CVSL x 65 million: 390
8 DLG x 32 million: 256
16 DDG x 18 million: 288
16 FFG x 12 million: 192
18 FF x 6 million: 108
12 LST x 10 million: 120 million
Aircraft: 910 million
Phantom licence: 25 million
400 F-4 Phantoms @ 625,000 each: 250 million
200 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins @ 600,000 each: 120 million
200 de Havilland Vanguards @ 900,000 each: 180 million
200 Blackburn Buccaneers @ 750,000 each: 150 million
100 Supermarine Excaliburs @ 1,000,000 each: 100 million
150 Fairey Rotodynes @ 320,000 each: 48 million
250 Helicopters @ 250,000 average: 62.5 million
Missiles: 525 million
2000 Galahad AAM @ 50,000 each: 100 million
5000 Skyblade AAM @ 25,000 each: 125 million
10000 Firebolt AAM @ 10,000 each: 100 million
500 Lancelot SLCM @ 400,000 each: 200 million
Funding towards ongoing construction of 2 Floating Fortress: 250 million (Tranche 2/3)
Bombs and Ordnance: 250 million
Royal Air Force
Total: 6250 million
Aircraft: 3245.85 million
Phantom licence: 50 million
120 Supermarine Victory bombers @ 10 million each: 1200 million
60 Avro Vindicators @ 5 million each: 300 million
800 F-4 Phantoms @ 625,000 each: 500 million
323 Vickers Thunderbolts @ 1.25 million each: 403.75 million
452 de Havilland Tornados @ 1 million each: 452 million
264 Gloster Lions @ 650,000: 171.6 million
150 Hawker Siddeley Harriers @ 750,000 each: 112.5 million
56 Hawker Siddeley HS.681 Skyblazers @ 1 million each: 56 million
Missiles: 2255 million
320 Violet Friend ABMs @ 2 million each: 640 million
320 Black Beauty MR ABM @ 1.25 million each: 400 million
640 Blue Sky SR ABM @ 0.625 million each: 400 million
960 Blue Envoy SAMs @ 0.25 million each: 240 million
2000 Galahad AAM @ 50,000 each: 100 million
5000 Skyblade AAM @ 25,000 each: 125 million
10000 Firebolt AAM @ 10,000 each: 100 million
2500 Green Oak ARMs @ 40,000 each: 100 million
1500 Blue Rose AGMs @ 50,000 each: 75 million
3000 Black Cat AGM @ 25,000 each: 75 million
Bombs and Ordnance: 500 million
Fuel and Other: 257 million
British Army
Total: 4612 million
Armoured Vehicles: 2315 million
1000 MACV x 625,000: 625 million
480 Challenger MAV x 0.875 million = 420 million
1000 Centaur IMV x 0.5 million = 500 million
800 Sentinel LAV x 0.4 million = 320 million
1200 Vickers Saracen AMC x 0.375 million = 450 million
Artillery: 378 million
640 New 152mm SPGH x 0.45 million = 288 million
360 New 152mm FH x 0.25 million = 90 million
Missiles: 414 million
4000 PT.428 Rapier x 15,000 = 60 million
20,000 Vickers Skyflash MANPADS x 5200 = 104 million
10,000 H-S Javelins x 4800 = 48 million
25,000 Orange William/Swingfire x 3600 = 90 million (broadly equivalent to TOW type missiles)
40,000 Green Apple/ x 2800 = 112 million (broadly equivalent to Dragon/Milan type missiles)
Helicopters: 429.42 million
264 Westland Westminster x 240,000 = 63.4 million (CH.53 type)
362 Bristol Buckingham x 200,000 = 72.4 million (CH.47 type)
300 Westland Tiger x 400,000 = 120 million
245 Fairey Rotodynes x 320,000 = 78.4 million
529 Bristol Bulldog x 180,000 = 95.22 million (UH-1)
Vehicles: 676 million
25,000 Bedford MK 5t lorry x 8,000 = 200 million
15,000 Leyland Ranger 5t 6x6 lorry x 12,000 = 180 million
5000 Alvis Stalwart 10t 8x8 lorry x 20,000 = 100 million
400 Scammell Commander x 40,000 = 16 million
50,000 Land Rovers x 3000 = 150 million
5000 Humber Pigs x 6000 = 30 million
Individual Equipment: 150 million
Personal Radio Equipment
Infantry Body Armour
Combat Helmets
Night Vision Devices
Combat Boots
Webbing
Bergens
Small Arms: 250 million
New Development (LMG, DMR, Minigun, Power Sword)
Existing Weapon Acquisition (Battle Rifle, Assault Rifle, SMG, GPMG, HMG, 25mm Maxim, Carl Gustav, RR, LAW, 37mm autocannon)
RAF Aircraft and SAM Procurement 1961-1966
Total: 5960.74 million
423 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins @ 700,000 each: 296.1 million
329 English Electric Lightnings @ 960,000 each: 315.84 million
325 Supermarine Sunstars @ 900,000 each: 292.5 million
245 Fairey Delta IIs @ 1 million each: 245 million
238 Avro Arrows @ 875,000 each: 208.25 million
678 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers @ 750,000 each: 508.5 million
450 Gloster Lions @ 650,000: 292.5 million
238 de Havilland Tornados @ 1 million each: 238 million
278 Supermarine Eagle TSR-2s @ 2.5 million each: 695 million
189 Avro Vulcans @ 4 million each: 756 million
164 Handley-Page Vengeances @ 3 million each: 492 million
102 Vickers Thunderbolts @ 1.25 million each: 127.5 million
234 Bristol Skytankers @ 1.2 million each: 280.8 million
309 Hawker-Siddeley HS.681 Skyblazers @ 1 million each: 309 million
120 Armstrong Whitworth Atlases @ 1.5 million each: 180 million
95 Shorts Belfasts @ 1.3 million each: 123.5 million
125 Violet Friend @ 2 million each: 250 million
800 Bristol Blue Envoy @ 0.25 million each: 200 million
1200 Bristol Bloodhound @ 0.125 million each: 150 million
Notes:
- There is an emphasis in this period on the Harrier as partial replacement for the Hunter
- Fighter production at this time is mainly for attritional reserve/spares and replacement of older types
- TSR-2s go to MEAF and FEAF and spares. Vulcans replace earlier types
- Reductions in the period amount to 2458 combat aircraft, 552 transports (3010 in total)
836 Hunters
742 Spectres
594 Canberras
286 Deltas
284 Britannias
268 Rotodynes
687 trainers
These go to reserve, sales or the RAuxAF
RN Aircraft Procurement 1961-1966
Total: 1924.07 million
400 Westland Sea King @ 250,000 each: 100 million
250 Fairey Rotodynes @ 320,000 each: 48 million
324 Hawker-Siddeley Sea Harriers @ 680,000 each: 220.32 million
287 Blackburn Buccaneers @ 750,000 each: 215.25 million
250 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins @ 750,000 each: 187.5 million
200 de Havilland Vanguards @ 900,000 each: 180 million
129 Supermarine Excaliburs @ 1,000,000 each: 129 million
280 Handley-Page Poseidons @ 1 million each: 280 million
240 Hawker-Siddeley Nimrods @ 1.75 million each: 420 million
96 Short Sydneys @ 1.5 million each: 144 million
Notes:
- RN Phantoms replace the older de Havilland Spectre as an FAA carrier based fighter-bomber and RNAS land based fighter
- The question of choosing a potential land based maritime strike fighter is a fairly straightforward one, with the Tornado to be acquired in the early 1970s
- The RNAS has an aim of moving to an all-jet Nimrod MPA force in the 1970s; the Poseidons will go into reserve, even as they are quite new
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 31, 2021 15:44:43 GMT
Interesting and very impressive. One small question.
Is this a typo for Polaris or a UK produced missile? Your probably mentioned this before but I can't remember.
Thanks
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 31, 2021 16:08:53 GMT
It isn’t a typo, but a new US SLBM designed for employment on large surface vessels as compared to submarines. It has a longer range than Green Knight/Polaris and has MIRVs.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 31, 2021 16:14:27 GMT
It isn’t a typo, but a new US SLBM designed for employment on large surface vessels as compared to submarines. It has a longer range than Green Knight/Polaris and has MIRVs.
OK thanks for clarifying. Should have remember this is after Polaris.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 1, 2021 10:53:08 GMT
Notes on the big picture/consequences of above:
1.) Ships
- Ship prices are soaring, right at the time when the war built fleet is leaving service. Large numbers are being replaced with fewer yet more capable ships
- The shift from DDGs to DLGs is similar to some moves that occurred in @, specifically the jump from the 4500t Charles F. Adams DDGs to the 8000-9600t Spruance/Kidd/Ticonderoga DDs/DDGs/DLGs. The RN’s DDGs range from 5200t-7500t, with the earlier vessels likely to be sold to emerging markets overseas. The Type 42/ Town class DLGs/super destroyers that will replace them will displace ~12,500t, which is another “sweet spot” in displacement. They will be double ended ships capable of operating a pair of Rotodynes with a twin 6” gun mount in A and Y and a twin missile launcher in B and X. I’m considering a name that combines some sense of the Rainbow Codes, the previous 4-T system (which did signify a fair bit of behind the scenes Anglo-American cooperation...) and Sea Dart, which does have a certain ring to it. Other guided missiles will include Blue Falcon (an anti-submarine missile carrying a torpedo, like Ikara, but has a maximum range of 16nm and a much faster speed of Mach 0.85), Paladin (an AShM in the Exocet/Harpoon class), Sea Wolf and a longer range strike missile.
- I’m leaning towards 6” over 5.25” due to range, weight of shell and a decent rate of fire, but am not wedded to it. The advantage of the 5.25” is not much reduction of range and a big leap in rate of fire, which does allow dual purpose AAW/ASuW fire missions.
- The other side of this is the Joint Light ASW Frigate, displacing ~4800t, carrying a single medium calibre gun, light AA guns, some sort of light AAW missile, ASW missiles, a pair of Sea King helicopters and a towed array sonar. The RN and Commonwealth options for that main gun are 4.5”, 120mm, 5” or 5.25”. I’m discounting 4.5” due to too light a shell and shorter range; there is not much to be gained from introducing a new calibre such as 120mm or 127mm in those categories either.
-Having both the destroyers and frigates standardise on 5.25”, even if the former is a twin and the latter is a single, is a big advantage. The other calibres would be the 25”, 12” and 9.2”, so reducing the types to four in total would be a boon. Interested to hear opinions/views.
2.) Guided Missiles
- The costs of fielding more and better missiles are starting to seriously mount, with the RN costs forecast to explode from 1970 and the Army not majorly far behind.
- In the former case, this will consist of two kinds of new SAMs, strike missiles and assorted types for aircraft. In the latter case, the big projects will be replacement for the English Electric Thunderbird as a mobile SAGW/SAM, a medium range strike missile and a lot of ATGMs for a variety of platforms.
- Put simply, there won’t be a capacity to afford everything, let alone in the stockpiled quantities needed.
3.) Aircraft
- Numbers are going down, putting the squeeze on the best laid schemes o’ mice and men.
- Reserve numbers will drop quite rapidly as the first sign of this
- Bomber Command’s size will drop markedly as the Valiants go. Vietnam is their last hurrah.
4.) The Future
- The Army has the big costs of the MACV/AFV and the Future MBT programmes, in addition to large numbers of new SPGs. These will be eye watering.
- The RN has to juggle its steady building of new ships (aircraft carriers, battleships, cruisers, the aforementioned 1970s escorts and a consistent number of SSNs) with ever more costly weapons for them. The Soviets are already larger than the RN, who can’t afford quantity and quality.
- The RAF have some dashed big programmes coming up to replace the fighters of the mid-late 1950s. That, in concert with ABMs, is enough to eat up most available funding. Juggling the back end of the Tornado, Thunderbolt and Harrier programmes is going to be a close run thing.
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. But the likes of Doctor Who and certain other figures don't translate well to a television series, given their position close to the British authorities and Establishment; the Doctor's relationship in Dark Earth is close to his UNIT days in some ways.
