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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 8, 2021 12:31:27 GMT
I've just been doing a bit of research into Blue Streak and have found some interesting materials which correspond to some of the Dark Earth expanded deployment options:
“The Air Ministry Requirement that appeared was for a maximum range initially of 1,000 to 1,500nm, then for 1,750 to 2,000nm, but finally with a need for a stretch potential to 2,500nm. An early version of the RAF Requirement also considered deployment of Blue Streak in North Africa. The Australians even considered that it could defend them because, before the 1958 Anglo-American Agreement for Cooperation on the Use of Atomic Energy for Mutual Defence Purposes, there were signs of the UK's nuclear force becoming a Commonwealth one in conjunction with Canada and Australia.”
(Wayne Reynolds, ‘Whatever happened to the Fourth British Empire? The Cold War, Empire Defence and the USA, 1943-57’ in Michael F. Hopkins, Michael D. Kandiah and Gillian Staerck (eds) Cold War Britain 1945-64: New Perspectives (London: Palgrave, 2003), pp.127-140.)
There is also some interesting yet vague mentions of basing in North Africa and Cyprus.
With a greater range in the ICBM category (but keeping in mind the larger distances) basing in South Africa, Australia, Canada and Great Britain covers everywhere except South America and a strip including part of India, inland China, North Korea and Manchuria. The latter is resolved by a missile base in Malaya, but that would have political complications; India has the same issue, but writ large.
Cost is much higher than historical, reflecting capabilities and complexity.
There was also some very early plans for a 9 boat RN SSBN force, based on 4 in the Atlantic, 4 in the Indian Ocean and 1 under refit at Rosyth.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832 
Likes: 13,222
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Post by stevep on Feb 9, 2021 9:37:10 GMT
I've just been doing a bit of research into Blue Streak and have found some interesting materials which correspond to some of the Dark Earth expanded deployment options: “The Air Ministry Requirement that appeared was for a maximum range initially of 1,000 to 1,500nm, then for 1,750 to 2,000nm, but finally with a need for a stretch potential to 2,500nm. An early version of the RAF Requirement also considered deployment of Blue Streak in North Africa. The Australians even considered that it could defend them because, before the 1958 Anglo-American Agreement for Cooperation on the Use of Atomic Energy for Mutual Defence Purposes, there were signs of the UK's nuclear force becoming a Commonwealth one in conjunction with Canada and Australia.” (Wayne Reynolds, ‘Whatever happened to the Fourth British Empire? The Cold War, Empire Defence and the USA, 1943-57’ in Michael F. Hopkins, Michael D. Kandiah and Gillian Staerck (eds) Cold War Britain 1945-64: New Perspectives (London: Palgrave, 2003), pp.127-140.) There is also some interesting yet vague mentions of basing in North Africa and Cyprus. With a greater range in the ICBM category (but keeping in mind the larger distances) basing in South Africa, Australia, Canada and Great Britain covers everywhere except South America and a strip including part of India, inland China, North Korea and Manchuria. The latter is resolved by a missile base in Malaya, but that would have political complications; India has the same issue, but writ large. Cost is much higher than historical, reflecting capabilities and complexity. There was also some very early plans for a 9 boat RN SSBN force, based on 4 in the Atlantic, 4 in the Indian Ocean and 1 under refit at Rosyth.
Sounds an interesting idea and would give coverage over the Soviets and most of China, who are the current threats. In terms of that gap what is India's stance on nukes? Are they looking to develop their own force or taking a non-nuclear position? Are Ceylon and Burma part of India or possibly friendly enough for such a role. Or even N Borneo or possibly Papua New Guinea, although the latter may not advance things far compared to Australia and would probably need a big infrastructure bill. Or possibly since virtually all the threat areas are covered its not considered worth the costs, both fiscal and political.
In terms of N Africa where would that be as historically, apart from part of Libya after WWII we only really had bases in Egypt and there is probably a substantial political cost there.
In the longer run SSBNs are the most secure method and that sounds a useful force although I would have thought the second area of operation would be the Pacific rather than the Indian Ocean. Then it could be based in Australia, Canada or possibly elsewhere and have more room to operate from. Unless its that the Indian Ocean - presumably with a base in W Australia - is more secure and/or gives more coverage of southern USSR?
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 9, 2021 10:30:54 GMT
Steve,
The Indian position is complicated and it isn't clear which party will win in the 1967 elections, nor what their policy will ultimately be. They do want their own force, as there is virtually no-one taking a non-nuclear position at the current time. Burma is still under Indian control, but its exact situation is a bit nebulous. Ceylon is an independent Dominion, which in practice means being very close to Britain. It might be an option. Borneo is an active war zone and New Guinea is just too rugged.
There is also the option of simply developing longer range missiles over the late 1960s and 1970s, as happened in @.
I haven't found any specifics on North Africa, but I'd presume it meant Cyrenaica.
SSBNs are secure, but they are also quite short ranged in the 1960s and 1970s, as well as lacking throw weight, accuracy and megatonnage. I'm assuming that there was a dual aim of getting at the underside of the USSR and covering the Far East/keeping the Indian Ocean a British lake.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 17, 2021 18:24:10 GMT
US Army Late 1950s/early 1960s Rations:
Meal, Combat, Individual Contents:
US Army Meal, Ready to Eat Rations 1973
Breakfast Pack
1 x Cereal: Oatmeal, Granola, Raisin Bran, Shredded Wheat
1 x Main: Bacon and Eggs; Steak and Eggs; Ham and Eggs; Sausage Patty and Eggs; Corned Beef Hash; Omelet with Ham; Creamed Chipped Beef and Eggs; Franks and Beans
Grits, Eggs and Bacon; Hash Brown Potatoes with Bacon, Peppers and Onions; BBQ Pork Rib Pattie and Beans; Ham Slice with Beans and Potatoes
1 x Dessert: Spiced Apple Breakfast Cake; Carrot Cake; Cinnamon Breakfast Cake; Strawberry Turnover; Blueberry Turnover; Raspberry Turnover; Orange Turnover; Lemon Turnover; Chocolate Chip Pastry; Cranberry Turnover; Maple Turnover; Peach
Canned White Bread
Hardtack Crackers
Cheese Spread
Fruit Bars: Apple, Orange, Banana, Strawberry, Apricot, Peach, Pineapple, Raspberry, Lime, Kiwi, Blueberry, Watermelon
Powdered Fruit Beverage
Coffee
Dinner Pack
1 x Main Dish: Beefsteak and Potatoes; Roast Beef, Gravy, Potato, Vegetables; Chicken a la King; Beef Stew; Roast Pork, Apple Sauce, Potato, Vegetables; Roast Turkey, Stuffing, Gravy; Barbecued Pork and Beans; Tuna Noodle Casserole; Meatloaf and Vegetables; Chilli Con Carne and Rice; Barbecued Beef in Sauce; Spaghetti with Meat and Sauce;
1 x Side Dish: Mashed Potato, Roasted Potatoes, Escalloped Potatoes with Ham, Potatoes au Gratin, Rice and Beans, Mixed Vegetables, Black Beans in Sauce, Creamed Corn Royale, Macaroni and Cheese, Pasta with Tomato Sauce; Peas, Corn and Carrots; Green Bean Casserole
1 x Dessert: Fruit Cocktail; Pound Cake; Pudding; Cake; Date Walnut; Strawberry Shortcake; Apple Pie Turnover; Cherry Pie Turnover; Pear Turnover; Chocolate Pudding; Apple Crisp; Pumpkin Pie Turnover; Cherry Blueberry Cobbler;
Crackers/Hardtack Biscuits
Canned White Bread
Canned Cheese
Ranger Cookies
Peanut Butter Cookies
Cheese Spread
Peanut Butter
Jelly Spread
Fruit Bars: Apple, Orange, Banana, Strawberry, Apricot, Peach, Pineapple, Raspberry, Lime, Kiwi, Blueberry, Watermelon
Powdered Fruit Beverage
Supper Pack
Powdered Soup
1 x Main Dish: Spaghetti and Meatballs in Tomato Sauce; Chicken and Noodles; Pork with Rice in Barbecue Sauce; Beef Brisket in Gravy; Meatballs in Tomato Sauce; Beef Pot Roast and Vegetables; Chicken Casserole; BBQ Pork Rib; Boneless Pork Chop with Noodles; Ham and Chicken Loaf; Turkey Chunks in Gravy; Hamburger and Mashed Potato;
Hardtack Crackers
Canned White Bread
Cornbread
Canned Cheese
Fruit Bars: Apple, Orange, Banana, Strawberry, Apricot, Peach, Pineapple, Raspberry, Lime, Kiwi, Blueberry, Watermelon
Powdered Fruit Beverage
Cocoa Powder
Accessories Pack
Coffee, Creamer, Butter, Sugar, Salt, Pepper, Gum,
Candy
Fruit Lifesavers
M&Ms
Salted Peanuts
10 Cigarettes
Matches
Toilet Paper
Water Purification Tablets
4 x Enriched Hershey Chocolate Bars
Granola Bar
Beef Jerky
Steak Bar
Bacon Bar
Powdered Soup
Condensed Milk
Tabasco Hot Sauce
Barbecue Sauce
Spork
Modernisation and transformation of U.S. Army rations is gathering pace in the aftermath of Vietnam, with a renewed focus on the potential European theatre of operations. Like the British and several other Western militaries, the U.S Army is shifting away from canned rations to integrated meal packs contained in plasticised retort pouches, both for easy of storage and efficiency of cooking. In response to extensive testing, a wide variety of dinner and supper entrees has been provided, along with larger serving sizes.
Some products have been introduced from across the Atlantic, such as the enriched fruit bar.
British Army Rations 1973
Breakfast Pack
Instant Porridge Sachet
Bacon, Sausage, Tomatoes and Eggs; Sausage, Eggs and Beans; Steak and Eggs; Muesli with Apple and Raspberry; Vegetable Omelette and Sausage; Veal Chop, Egg and Beans;
Bacon, Eggs and Potatoes; Corned Beef Bubble and Squeak; Ham Steak and Omelette; Kedgeree; Frankfurter Sausages, Bacon and Beans; Bacon Grill, Egg, Beans, Tomatoes and Mushrooms
Smoked Kippers and Eggs; Spaghetti, Sausages and Bacon Meatballs; Roast Pork and Beans; Smoked Haddock, Scrambled Eggs and Potatoes; Pork Sausages, Bacon, Mashed Potatoes and Gravy; Beef, Scrambled Eggs, Cheese and Potato Hash; Bacon Pudding and Scrambled Eggs; Hot Smoked Salmon and Eggs; Lamb Sausage, Macon and Potato Hash; Black Pudding, Tomato and Potato Hash; Apricot Frumenty with Strawberry, Kiwifruit and Sultanas; Hamburg Steak, Egg and Beans;
Apple Turnover
Waybread
Canned White Bread
Marmite, Honey, Jam
Fruit Bars: Apple, Orange, Banana, Strawberry, Apricot, Peach, Pineapple, Raspberry, Lime, Kiwi, Blueberry, Watermelon
Biscuits Brown
Powdered Fruit Drink
Dinner Pack
Starters: Salt Beef, Devilled Ham, Roast Bacon, Prawn Cocktail, Jellied Veal, Chicken Pate, Herring, Smoked Salmon, Sweet and Sour Pork, Beef Curry, Tabasco Chicken, Mushroom and Herbs
Main Courses:
Roast Beef, Yorkshire Pudding, Roast Potatoes, Vegetables, Gravy; Roast Beef, Mashed Potato, Vegetables and Gravy; Irish Stew; Beef Stew and Dumplings; Roast Chicken and Vegetables; Mutton Curry
Corned Beef, Potatoes, Carrots and Vegetables; Shepherd’s Pie; Chicken and Ham Stew; Salmon Casserole; Steak and Kidney Pudding; Lobscouse with Red Cabbage
Meatloaf, Potatoes and Gravy; Smoked Haddock and Vegetables; Sirloin Beefsteak, Chips, Onions, Mushrooms, Tomatoes and Peas; Roast Lamb, Potatoes, Vegetables, Gravy and Mint Jelly; Braised Oxtail and Haricot Beans; Chicken Casserole and Herb Dumplings
Roast Pork, Apple Sauce, Potatoes and Vegetables; Macaroni Cheese with Bacon and Sausage; Fish Pie; Lancashire Hotpot; Ham and Pea Stew with Dumplings; Beefsteak and Ale Pudding
Puddings: Treacle Pudding; Spotted Dick; Jam Roly- Poly; Apple Crumble; Bread and Butter Pudding; Rice Pudding and Jam; Sticky Toffee Pudding; Rhubarb Pudding; Lemon Sponge Pudding; Chocolate Pudding; Anzac Pudding; Raspberry Cabinet Pudding
Waybread
Canned White Bread
Cheese
Fruit Bars: Apple, Orange, Banana, Strawberry, Apricot, Peach, Pineapple, Raspberry, Lime, Kiwi, Blueberry, Watermelon
Oatmeal Block Biscuits
Powdered Fruit Drink
Supper Pack
Powdered Soup
Starters: Roast Chicken, Frankfurter Sausage, Sardines, Salt Pork, Tuna, Smoked Turkey, Pork and Beans, Corned Mutton, Gammon, Smoked Oysters, Potted Shrimps, Roast Beef
Main Courses:
Pork Sausages, Bacon, Mashed Potatoes and Gravy; Boiled Mutton and Caper Sauce; Honey Roast Duck with Cumberland Sauce; Savoury Mince and Potatoes; Curried Sausages; Ham, Bacon, Corn and Cheese Scalloped Potatoes
Indian Butter Chicken Curry and Rice; Veal Casserole; Roast Turkey and Vegetables; Welsh Cawl; Roast Pork and Beans; Somerset Sausage and Bean Stew
Steak and Mushroom; Cumberland Pie; Cod and Mash; Venison, Sausage, Mushroom and Chestnut Casserole; Braised Pheasant; Veal and Ham Pie;
Toad in the Hole, Onion Gravy and Mashed Potatoes; Swedish Meatballs, Gravy and Potatoes; Tuna Mornay; Stewed Steak; Chicken Royale; Lamb Mulligatawny
Waybread
Cheese Spread
Orange Cake/Lemon Cake/Strawberry Cake/Peach Cake
Apple Sauce
Fruit Bars: Apple, Orange, Banana, Strawberry, Apricot, Peach, Pineapple, Raspberry, Lime, Kiwi, Blueberry, Watermelon
Fruit Biscuits
Powdered Fruit Drink
Accessory Pack
6 Hardtack Crackers
Pemmican Bar
Bacon Bar
Enriched Wonka Chocolate Bar
Cadbury Fruit and Nut Chocolate Bar
Fruit and Nut Muesli Bar
Boiled Sweets
Spangles
Lifesavers
Skittles
Kendal Mint Cake
Rowntree's Jelly Tots
Horlicks Tablets
Condensed Milk Tube
Cocoa
6 x Instant Tea Bags
Creamer
Butter
Sugar, Salt, Pepper, Seasoning
Chewing Gum
Tooth Picks
Toothbrush
Tabasco Sauce
Miniature Alcoholic Cordial
10 Cigarettes
Matches
Toilet Paper
Water Purification Tablets
Pervitin
Heating Kit with Fuel
Spork
Knork
Over the 1960s, British military rations have been modernised and revised to reflect new understanding of field nutrition and evolving technologies. There has been a shift from predominantly canned/tinned goods to retort pouches, which has reduced overall volume and weight to some extent. The largest difference that this has allowed is the grouping of rations into 3 meals and an accessory pack containing emergency iron rations, tea making supplies and assorted extra items to improve the quality of the soldier's life.
With additional investment in the Army in particular since 1964/65, new menu items have been introduced for variety and morale purposes, ranging from new dinner and supper options and small tinned or bagged starters to the supply of military waybread. Currently, meals are cooked through 'boil in the bag' methods, but there are experiments underway with flameless chemical heaters; there are opportunity costs involved with the use of water for the latter innovation.
Fruit bars contain concentrated fruits enriched with vitamins, whilst the meat bars are high calorie/high energy vitamin enriched emergency rations.
Many of the items have benefited from decades of advances in arcane food preservation and storage technology; consider some of Willy Wonka's fantastical methods and inventions. Both the USA and Britain are looking to modernise and consolidate their rations.
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 18, 2021 17:41:42 GMT
1967 Update to the Indonesian Theatre:
- Sukarno remains firmly in power and aligned with the Soviet bloc.
- Things come very close to a war with Britain in early 1965 before Jakarta draws back from the brink
- In December 1966, the stuff hits the fan:
“December 13: Arrival of a large Soviet arms convoy in Jakarta, delivering hundreds of tanks, armoured vehicles, guns, missile boats and aircraft, along with thousands of Soviet troops. This is seen as extremely alarming by Australia, Britain, the United States and other regional states, sparking immediate crisis meetings.”
“ December 16: A joint declaration is issued by President Kennedy and Prime Minister Barton announcing that Australia will be supported with reinforcements of men and equipment to counter the Soviet escalation in Indonesia.”
- In response, the US moves ahead with contingency plans to deploy troops, planes, defensive missiles and ships to Australia. There are similar moves by the British, joining forces already deployed in 1965.
- In 1967, there will be some further transfers of aircraft and equipment to Australia.
- Australian reaction to the situation has been rearmament and partial mobilisation, with the regular army rising to 12 divisions from 9.5 and the CMF also raising new divisions. Reserve training and deployment has been cycled onto a higher state of readiness and conscription increased.
- The RAAF are getting a large number of new planes and SAMs, most notably more Arrows from Canada and at least 100 more Phantoms.
- Navally, the RAN will be getting some new cruisers and submarines and authorisation of two new carriers to replace the wartime pair. I’ll put together an RAN orbat update.
- 1967 will see some high profile nuclear tests
- The Soviet escalation and the reaction to it are contributing factors in Stalin Jr’s stroke...
Pre December 1966:
- The Dutch still maintain a strong East Indies force of 1 Marine brigade, 1 Army infantry brigade (reinforced with commando and SAS detachments), a Degen fighter wing and one Valiant squadron and a naval squadron of a carrier supported by 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 4 guided missile destroyers, 5 frigates and 2 submarines.
- Their mission is to support the forthcoming independence of Western New Guinea, but will be drawn down fairly quickly after the formal handover.
- A residual expeditionary force will remain in support, but the ultimate goal of the Dutch is to not be drawn into an open ended deployment - they simply can’t afford it.
1967: Australian, British and US troops on the ground in Western New Guinea
More to come on this
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 20, 2021 10:01:22 GMT
I’m putting together something on energy and heavy industry for A New Jerusalem and it leads to some interesting decisions. Earlier discovery of North Sea oil and gas hasn’t lead to a major leap in oil or gas power stations, with a large amount going to export, and there is a larger nuclear energy programme underway, with 11 plants completed and a further 25 under construction or planned. This will lead to a decline in coal power stations over the late 60s and 70s, leading to some big questions for the coal industry.
Industrial uses of coal remain very strong and there is a strong culture of stockpiling and not putting all the eggs in one basket, but domestic consumption is falling at the same time as electricity generation is declining. This will lead to eventual changes that are quite wide reaching.
Fusion seems on the horizon as well, which is the largest game changer.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
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Post by stevep on Feb 20, 2021 11:33:19 GMT
I’m putting together something on energy and heavy industry for A New Jerusalem and it leads to some interesting decisions. Earlier discovery of North Sea oil and gas hasn’t lead to a major leap in oil or gas power stations, with a large amount going to export, and there is a larger nuclear energy programme underway, with 11 plants completed and a further 25 under construction or planned. This will lead to a decline in coal power stations over the late 60s and 70s, leading to some big questions for the coal industry. Industrial uses of coal remain very strong and there is a strong culture of stockpiling and not putting all the eggs in one basket, but domestic consumption is falling at the same time as electricity generation is declining. This will lead to eventual changes that are quite wide reaching. Fusion seems on the horizon as well, which is the largest game changer.
Interesting. Sounds like an earlier conversion to central heating from coal fires for domestic heating if I read it rightly. Which is something a young me would have been very happy with although my mum loved a coal fire - which I saw as a very efficient way of heating the air above the house.
Fusion if it can be managed could be a real game changer as you say assuming it doesn't end up like fission OTL - too cheap to meter becoming expensive dinosaurs. However suspect that would be unlikely.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 20, 2021 17:33:37 GMT
Steve,
That had begun in the 1950s in @, but is gathering more pace due to the different energy picture. One factor that is present that wasn’t historically is the Severn Barrage, which supplies a decent chunk of the national energy mix with its 12,000 MW output; weighed up against it is the even greater role of heavy industry’s share of national consumption.
The four major sectors are industry, transport, houses and services, in that order. In 1970, 48% of British power came from oil, 38% from coal, 8% from gas, 3.5% from nuclear, 2% from hydroelectric, 2% from renewable and 1% from biomass. On Dark Earth, it will look more like 36% coal, 23% oil, 16% nuclear, 12% gas, 10% hydroelectric, 2% renewable and 1% solar power satellites, with nuclear set to rise to the top in due course. There is a great deal of interest in the potential for very cheap nuclear power.
Coal mining will have rather less politico-industrial clout than historical, but won’t have the same outcome and there isn’t the same perceived need to break/reduce union power, coming from a different baseline.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 9, 2021 10:57:34 GMT
I’ve been doing a bit of research of late into the High North and specifically how the strategic situation in Northern Scandinavia is evolving. The crux of the matter is that the Soviets have assessed it as one of the fronts that is most open to rapid initial exploitation.
Norway has one regular division and a brigade in Finnmark, but the best defensive terrain lies much further back towards Tromso. Additionally, if a defence is mounted too far forward, it runs the risk of being cut off by a Soviet advance across the far north of Finland. Historically, the main line of resistance was planned around Lyngen, but here, it will likely be based around a line from Kvaenangen through to the Swedish border. There would be a lot of coordinated special forces and commando resistance through Finnmark prior to the defensive zone in Troms.
This would consist of a combination of obstacles, demolition, pre-registered artillery and coordinated bunker lines, along with a large number of tank turrets built into the ground. Historically, there were some interesting plans for self propelled guns to be based inside mountains and have galleries blasted out for them to fire from and I can certainly see the same happening here. There is also some utility for the transfer of former US and British coastal artillery to the area, along with some particular former WW2 German guns. However, the main purpose would be so much static defence as channelling attacking enemy forces into killing ground and areas conducive to defence.
The major reason for this is the comparatively small numbers of Norwegian and Allied troops that would be in position in a bolt from the blue scenario. The three major external Allied states contributing to the defence of the High North are the United States (XVIII Corps and 2nd MAC), Britain (British Mobile Force) and Canada (Canadian Air Sea Mobile Force). That is a lot of force, but it would take time to get it over and ready. Crucially, almost three quarters of that strength needs to come across the Atlantic from North America. The fastest deploying units would be the 1st Royal Marine Division and the British 6th Airborne Division by virtue of merely being across the North Sea; propositioning of equipment and war stocks in Norway is a matter of very high priority for the USA. American and Canadian airborne units would arrive shortly afterwards, but one characteristic of airborne forces is that they are light. The marines of all three countries are heavier, but generally count as medium troops - they have a decent amount of armour, but only towed artillery and rather less in the way of APCs/AFVs than mechanised divisions. The terrain isn’t the most conducive to mechanised forces, but they definitely still have a role. One additional solution/force multiplier comes in the form of tactical air, strike planes and bombers from the British Isles and armed helicopters, but above all else, naval airpower and gunfire is the largest arrow in the initial Allied/NATO quiver. This being Dark Earth, there are a few other available options, most notably dwarven troops. All of these can delay a Soviet land, sea and air advance, but stopping it and rolling it back will need the heavies.
Sweden needs to try and hold Kiruna and Gallivare and her defences are anchored down near the Baltic around the Boden fortress complex. This has been the Swedish Army’s main planned fighting area and training zone for over half a century, but even with the “home ground advantage” and a lot of pre-prepared obstacles, it will need a multi-corps defensive effort to halt a Soviet attack by up to 10 divisions; substantial forces are required to cover Central and Southern Sweden from the threat from the Baltic Military District.
As ever, I’d be interested in any ideas or comments on the issue.
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 12, 2021 6:31:12 GMT
British Empire Shipping 1937
Distribution of Shipping 3000 Tons Gross and Above on 24th of November 1937
And the Percentage of Certain Important Commodities Obtained by the United Kingdom from the Principal Regions supplying them in 1937
At Sea: 1771
British Vessels at Sea: 1545
Other British Vessels Afloat: 226
In Harbour/Ports: 705
British Isles: 287
Western Europe: 43
Scandinavia/Baltic: 5
Med: 41
India: 62
China, Japan and East Indies: 59
Australia and New Zealand: 41
Africa: 30
Canada, West Indies and USA (East Coast): 83
USA (West Coast): 14
South America: 40
Total: 2476
Europe
Spain
Iron: 12%
Denmark
Butter: 24%
Meat: 11%
Scandinavia
Wood Pulp: 38%
Iron: 29%
Timber: 12%
Aluminium: 10%
Paper: 7%
Eastern Europe
Wood Pulp: 36%
Timber: 32%
Paper: 31%
Flax: 20%
Butter: 14%
Western and Central Europe
Aluminium: 36%
Flax: 30%
Paper: 20%
Zinc: 17%
Tin: 11%
Cheese: 8%
Butter: 7%
Iron: 5%
Russia
Flax: 30%
Timber: 17%
Barley: 8%
Wheat: 8%
North America
Newfoundland
Paper: 17
Zinc: 15
Canada
Oats: 87%
Nickel: 81%
Aluminium: 47%
Wheat: 35%
Copper: 28%
Lead: 26%
Cheese: 25%
Zinc: 24%
Barley: 21%
Timber: 15%
Paper: 13%
Meat: 6%
USA
Cotton: 46%
Barley: 14%
Petroleum: 12%
Fertilizers: 12%
Copper: 11%
Iron: 9%
Timber: 6%
Mexico
Lead: 12%
Petroleum: 5%
West Indies
Sugar: 37%
Central America
Coffee: 37%
South America
Venezuela
Petroleum: 39%
Brazil
Oils and Fats: 8%
Meat: 6%
Cotton: 6%
Argentina/Uruguay
Maize: 83%
Meat: 31%
Wheat: 16%
Wool: 9%
Barley: 5%
Chile/Peru
Tin: 40%
Copper: 29%
Cotton: 5%
Africa and Middle East
South Africa
Wool: 12%
Maize: 10%
Sugar: 7%
Rhodesia
Copper: 27%
East Africa
Coffee: 42%
Hemp: 27%
Oils and Fats: 5%
Sudan
Oils and Fats: 5%
Egypt
Cotton: 18%
Oils and Fats: 14%
Middle East
Barley: 29%
Petroleum: 19%
North Africa
Fertilizers: 69%
Iron: 28%
Esparto: 15%
West Africa
Cocoa: 90%
Tin: 21%
Oils and Fat: 15%
Iron: 5%
India
India
Jute: 100%
Manganese: 85%
Tea: 57%
Rice: 53%
Oil Nuts: 16%
Cotton: 15%
Lead: 13%
Wheat: 7%
Wool: 6%
Ceylon
Tea: 29%
Rubber: 8%
Mauritius
Sugar: 11%
Asia
Indochina
Rice: 24%
Malaya
Rubber: 66%
Tin: 8%
Dutch East Indies
Rubber: 17%
Tea: 5%
Philippines
Hemp: 45%
China
Silk: 34%
Tea: 5%
Japan
Silk: 66%
Australasia
Australia
Lead: 48%
Wool: 39%
Zinc: 34%
Wheat: 23%
Butter: 16%
Sugar: 14%
Meat: 14%
Cheese: 5%
New Zealand
Cheese: 59%
Butter: 32%
Wool: 23%
Meat: 16%
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 12, 2021 6:49:04 GMT
Rubber
Malaya: 66%
DEI: 17%
Ceylon: 8%
Butter
NZ: 32%
Denmark: 24%
Australia: 16%
Eastern Europe: 14%
West/Central Europe: 7%
Cheese
NZ: 59%
Canada: 25%
Western/Central Europe: 8%
Australia: 5%
Meat:
Argentina/Uruguay: 31
NZ: 16
Australia: 14
Denmark: 11
Brazil: 6
Canada: 6
Oils and Fats
India: 16%
West Africa: 15%
Egypt: 14%
Brazil: 8%
Sudan: 5%
East Africa: 5%
Cotton
USA: 46%
Egypt: 18%
India: 15%
Brazil: 6%
Chile/Peru: 5%
Tea
India: 57%
Ceylon: 29%
China: 5%
DEI: 5%
Coffee
East Africa: 42%
Central America: 37%
Sugar
West Indies: 37%
Australia: 14%
Mauritius: 11%
South Africa: 7%
Wheat
Canada: 35%
Australia: 23%
Argentina/Uruguay: 16%
Russia: 8%
India: 7%
Barley
Middle East: 29%
Canada: 21%
USA: 14%
Russia: 8%
Argentina/Uruguay: 5%
Rice
India: 53%
Indochina: 24%
Timber
Eastern Europe: 32%
Russia: 17%
Canada: 15%
Scandinavia: 12%
USA: 6%
Paper
Eastern Europe: 31%
Western/Central Europe: 20%
Newfoundland: 17%
Canada: 13%
Scandinavia: 7%
Flax
Russia: 30%
Eastern Europe: 30%
Western/Central Europe: 20%
Iron
Scandinavia: 29%
North Africa: 28%
Spain: 12%
USA: 9%
West/Central Europe: 5%
Copper
Peru/Chile: 29%
Canada: 28%
USA: 11%
Aluminium
Canada: 47%
Western/Central Europe: 36%
Scandinavia: 10%
Tin
Chile/Peru: 40%
West Africa: 21%
West/Central Europe: 11%
Malaya: 8%
Zinc
Australia: 34%
Canada: 24%
Western/Central Europe: 17%
Newfoundland: 15%
Lead
Australia: 48%
Canada: 26%
India: 13%
Mexico: 12%
Petroleum
Venezuela: 39%
Middle East: 19%
USA: 12%
Mexico: 5%
Wool
Australia: 39%
New Zealand: 23%
South Africa: 12%
Argentina/Uruguay: 9%
India: 6%
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 12, 2021 7:33:30 GMT
The above two posts provide some historical data and context for an upcoming ANJ chapter.
This of course represents pre WW2 trade patterns from @, whereas there will be some distinct differences to the patterns of the mid 1960s in Dark Earth.
Some of these are:
- The raw material trade from China and the Soviet Union is way, way down
- Petroleum imports are far more focused on Canada and the Middle East
- Less aluminium is imported from non-Imperial sources
- Iron is the big one: There is a fair bit more coming in from Australia, Canada, South Africa and the various African colonies
- Paper is mainly drawn from Newfoundland and Canada, which adds some time to shipping, but is delivered in greater bulk
- Similarly, there is more of an emphasis on timber from Scandinavia and Finland and Newfoundland and Canada
- Barley and wheat are over 80% from Canada and Australia
- The West Indies provides over half of British imports of coffee and sugar
- Malayan tin makes up ~40% of imports
- Cotton is another large area of difference, with Egypt making up 29% and India 32%
- Meat is 25% New Zealand, 25% Australia, 15% Canada, 12% Argentina/Uruguay/Brazil, 8% Southern Africa, USA 6% and Europe (mainly Denmark) 6%
- Butter is 40% New Zealand, Australia 25%, Denmark 20%, Europe 10%
All of these exist within the context of:
Pre WW2: A total of 35% of meat, 50% of cheese and sugar, 60% of fruits, corn and cereals and 75% of butter were imported
1964: Meat and dairy imports dropped by two thirds
To address the impact of that decline on Australia and New Zealand, 40% of that is purchased by the War Office/Admiralty/Air Ministry for rations, stockpiles and supplies, 25% is purchased by the Ministry of Food for emergency supplies and stockpiled rations, 15% by the Ministry of Education for school meals, 10% by the Ministry of Space for their supplies and the Foreign Office + Commonwealth Office purchase the remainder for distribution as food aid. This isn't a long term solution, but is in place whilst production, consumption and import patterns evolve - one way this is happening is a greater supply is becoming available, lowering some prices and raising consumption (particularly of beef and mutton/lamb).
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 12, 2021 14:39:22 GMT
The above two posts provide some historical data and context for an upcoming ANJ chapter. This of course represents pre WW2 trade patterns from @, whereas there will be some distinct differences to the patterns of the mid 1960s in Dark Earth. Some of these are: - The raw material trade from China and the Soviet Union is way, way down - Petroleum imports are far more focused on Canada and the Middle East - Less aluminium is imported from non-Imperial sources - Iron is the big one: There is a fair bit more coming in from Australia, Canada, South Africa and the various African colonies - Paper is mainly drawn from Newfoundland and Canada, which adds some time to shipping, but is delivered in greater bulk - Similarly, there is more of an emphasis on timber from Scandinavia and Finland and Newfoundland and Canada - Barley and wheat are over 80% from Canada and Australia - The West Indies provides over half of British imports of coffee and sugar - Malayan tin makes up ~40% of imports - Cotton is another large area of difference, with Egypt making up 29% and India 32% - Meat is 25% New Zealand, 25% Australia, 15% Canada, 12% Argentina/Uruguay/Brazil, 8% Southern Africa, USA 6% and Europe (mainly Denmark) 6% - Butter is 40% New Zealand, Australia 25%, Denmark 20%, Europe 10% All of these exist within the context of: Pre WW2: A total of 35% of meat, 50% of cheese and sugar, 60% of fruits, corn and cereals and 75% of butter were imported 1964: Meat and dairy imports dropped by two thirds To address the impact of that decline on Australia and New Zealand, 40% of that is purchased by the War Office/Admiralty/Air Ministry for rations, stockpiles and supplies, 25% is purchased by the Ministry of Food for emergency supplies and stockpiled rations, 15% by the Ministry of Education for school meals, 10% by the Ministry of Space for their supplies and the Foreign Office + Commonwealth Office purchase the remainder for distribution as food aid. This isn't a long term solution, but is in place whilst production, consumption and import patterns evolve - one way this is happening is a greater supply is becoming available, lowering some prices and raising consumption (particularly of beef and mutton/lamb).
Interesting how little we're importing from the US, especially in terms of oil and assorted grains. It mentions no wheat or ,maize - the latter coming instead from the southern cone - and relatively little barley.
You also mention oil is largely from Canada and the ME but above I only see 19% from the ME and nothing mentioned from Canada? With 12% from the US and 5% from Mexico.
Shows how widely Britain is importing items from, although with an heavy concentration of the dominions. Can't remember but is there an imperial trade zone or has most of the [free] world moved to free trade?
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 12, 2021 16:44:51 GMT
Steve
All of the data is historical Earth, not Dark Earth, hence the @. I’m going to whip something up directly, but wanted to present the “baseline data” first of all.
It comes from an Admiralty chart that I’ll try and upload here for reference.
The pattern of historical Earth trade did change dramatically in WW2 towards the USA for shipping reasons, among other factors.
Simon
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 12, 2021 17:32:57 GMT
Steve All of the data is historical Earth, not Dark Earth, hence the @. I’m going to whip something up directly, but wanted to present the “baseline data” first of all. It comes from an Admiralty chart that I’ll try and upload here for reference. The pattern of historical Earth trade did change dramatically in WW2 towards the USA for shipping reasons, among other factors. Simon
Simon
Ok thanks. Sorry I missed that.
Steve
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