lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 6, 2020 19:11:29 GMT
Yes and no. In Dark Earth, there were pre 1962 plans for protection, evacuation and dispersal of the Royal Family in the event of war. Broadly speaking, the Queen would go to a secure location, the Prince of Wales to another and the Princess Royal to a third. These locations would include HMY Britannia, Camelot, underground facilities in the Highlands, Lyonesse and Ireland and, with enough time, Canada. After the 1960 Crisis, this is extended to include Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Prydain. Dispersing the line of succession for survivability is made both somewhat easier and also more complicated by the slightly larger ranks of the Royal Family. It would consist of the following as of 1966: 1.) Queen Elizabeth II 2.) Prince Charles, Prince of Wales 3.) Prince Andrew 4.) Prince Edward 5.) Prince Richard 6.) Prince George 7.) Princess Anne, Princess Royal After that, it enters into the other sons of King George V and their sons. Suffice it to say that there is a long list; many are in the Armed Forces in some capacity. Why Camelot. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 6, 2020 19:19:37 GMT
It is a rather secure location in the West Country with some very special characteristics that make it an ideal place for survival...
I know that isn’t quite specific, but the details come out in a future story. For now, the one bit I’ll say is that it is in two places at once.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 6, 2020 19:31:22 GMT
Yes and no. In Dark Earth, there were pre 1962 plans for protection, evacuation and dispersal of the Royal Family in the event of war. Broadly speaking, the Queen would go to a secure location, the Prince of Wales to another and the Princess Royal to a third. These locations would include HMY Britannia, Camelot, underground facilities in the Highlands, Lyonesse and Ireland and, with enough time, Canada. After the 1960 Crisis, this is extended to include Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Prydain. Dispersing the line of succession for survivability is made both somewhat easier and also more complicated by the slightly larger ranks of the Royal Family. It would consist of the following as of 1966: 1.) Queen Elizabeth II 2.) Prince Charles, Prince of Wales 3.) Prince Andrew 4.) Prince Edward 5.) Prince Richard 6.) Prince George 7.) Princess Anne, Princess Royal After that, it enters into the other sons of King George V and their sons. Suffice it to say that there is a long list; many are in the Armed Forces in some capacity. Why Camelot. Would the Queen also include here husband ore is he planning to stay in London. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 6, 2020 19:31:56 GMT
It is a rather secure location in the West Country with some very special characteristics that make it an ideal place for survival... I know that isn’t quite specific, but the details come out in a future story. For now, the one bit I’ll say is that it is in two places at once.
So has with so much else DE has definite links with the myths and legends. Some link to the location of a former king I'm assuming.  |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 7, 2020 2:53:47 GMT
Lordroel, The Queen and Prince would be together. Steve, Your assumption would be on the money. Simon |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 22, 2020 14:40:28 GMT
A few little notes for thought and consideration:
1.) With Charles, Prince of Wales, turning 19 in 1967, thought is turning to a future marriage. The issue is still approached in a somewhat more political light than in @, similar to the 1961 betrothal of the King of Belgium and heir to the throne of the Netherlands and thus there are several potential European princesses considered potential matches:
A.) Princess Christina of the Netherlands (1947)
B.) Princess Christina of Sweden (1945, rather than 1943 in @)
C.) Princess Anne-Marie of Denmark (1946)
Of them, Anne-Marie would probably be the best, given the pre-existing tie with Sweden through the marriage of Princess Margaret.
There aren't any French princesses of an appropriate age, Germany, Italy, Austria and a Russian exile are out for political reasons and, whilst there are Greek and Spanish princesses, there are differences of religion and other complicating factors.
2.) As of 1967, the future armoured vehicle picture for the British Army and other Commonwealth armies is becoming clearer. A general decision has been made to build three related types of wheeled armoured vehicle to replace and augment the 1950s FV300 series of 12 ton vehicles:
a.) A 6x6 light armoured vehicle to replace earlier heavy and medium armoured cars in the reconnaissance role, similar in role to the BRDM-2
b.) An 8x8 infantry mobility vehicle foreshadowed in Exercise Warhammer to equip infantry battalions, brigades and divisions and provide them with greater mobility and flexibility; similar to the BTR-70
c.) An 8x8 medium armoured vehicle armed with a 105mm gun that can provide direct fire support, act in a limited tank destroyer role and generally go to a number of locations not suited to the very heavy Chieftain MBTs. It will especially be useful in Africa and Australia, given their sheer size.
These will not be single types, but work to a common general design with specific national features for different variants.
Their names, split up in a Australia/South Africa/Canada/Britain format:
a.) LAV: Dingo/Eland/Bobcat/Sentinel (BRDM-2)
b.) IMV: Brumby/Springbok/Cougar/Centaur (BTR-70)
c.) MAV: Kangaroo/Rhino/Grizzly/Challenger
In addition to these, a Vickers Armoured Mobile Carrier, named the Saracen, is to be developed over the 1970s. This is to serve as a "battle taxi" for supporting troops in Europe and the Empire as part of a general move away from less protected lorries to even minimal safety. It is essentially a combination of the @ GKN Saxon and the South African Ratel.
2a.) The historical development of British infantry battalions resulted in
- Light Role/Light Infantry
- Mechanised Infantry (equipped with GKN Saxons)
- Armoured Infantry (equipped with FV-510 Warriors)
Here, the process will be similar, but not exactly the same
- Light Infantry (Leg Infantry or a mix of Saracen AMCs, Land Rovers and lorries)
- Mechanised Infantry (FV-432 Saxon APCs or Centaur IMVs)
- Armoured Infantry (MACVs)
Another way of looking at it would be the classic light, medium and heavy infantry split. In both Mechanised and Armoured infantry battalions, the ubiquitous FV-432 Saxon APCs will be present.
3.) Between 1961 and 1964, the RAF retires some 3010 aircraft (2458 combat aircraft and 552 transports), with many of the replacements going into operational reserve/attritional reserve. I'm putting together something on the defence spending forecasts and plans of the Barton Government for A New Jerusalem and will put together a bit of an orbat update to reflect that; there will be a 1967 Defence White Paper coming up.
4.) British Defence Spending between 1960 and 1966:
1960: $274,450,000,000 (12.5%)
1961: $267,350,040,480 (11.6%)
1962: $263,756,948,126 (11.1%)
1963: $261,475,806,953 (10.4%)
1964: $259,526,695,541 (9.9%)
1965: $287,347,003,083 (10%)
1966: $289,894,046,919 (9.3%)
There will be a rise in 1967-1970 to reflect Vietnam and other costs.
5.) Some regional players are going to start to present a growing potential threat, or at least a complication.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 22, 2020 14:45:40 GMT
A few little notes for thought and consideration: 1.) With Charles, Prince of Wales, turning 19 in 1967, thought is turning to a future marriage. The issue is still approached in a somewhat more political light than in @, similar to the 1961 betrothal of the King of Belgium and heir to the throne of the Netherlands and thus there are several potential European princesses considered potential matches: A.) Princess Christina of the Netherlands (1947) B.) Princess Christina of Sweden (1945, rather than 1943 in @) C.) Princess Anne-Marie of Denmark (1946) So royal marriages are still happening, what happens if Charles find a none major royal he falls in love with. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 22, 2020 15:01:58 GMT
A few little notes for thought and consideration: 1.) With Charles, Prince of Wales, turning 19 in 1967, thought is turning to a future marriage. The issue is still approached in a somewhat more political light than in @, similar to the 1961 betrothal of the King of Belgium and heir to the throne of the Netherlands and thus there are several potential European princesses considered potential matches: A.) Princess Christina of the Netherlands (1947) B.) Princess Christina of Sweden (1945, rather than 1943 in @) C.) Princess Anne-Marie of Denmark (1946) Of them, Anne-Marie would probably be the best, given the pre-existing tie with Sweden through the marriage of Princess Margaret. There aren't any French princesses of an appropriate age, Germany, Italy, Austria and a Russian exile are out for political reasons and, whilst there are Greek and Spanish princesses, there are differences of religion and other complicating factors. 2.) As of 1967, the future armoured vehicle picture for the British Army and other Commonwealth armies is becoming clearer. A general decision has been made to build three related types of wheeled armoured vehicle to replace and augment the 1950s FV300 series of 12 ton vehicles: a.) A 6x6 light armoured vehicle to replace earlier heavy and medium armoured cars in the reconnaissance role, similar in role to the BRDM-2 b.) An 8x8 infantry mobility vehicle foreshadowed in Exercise Warhammer to equip infantry battalions, brigades and divisions and provide them with greater mobility and flexibility; similar to the BTR-70 c.) An 8x8 medium armoured vehicle armed with a 105mm gun that can provide direct fire support, act in a limited tank destroyer role and generally go to a number of locations not suited to the very heavy Chieftain MBTs. It will especially be useful in Africa and Australia, given their sheer size. These will not be single types, but work to a common general design with specific national features for different variants. Their names, split up in a Australia/South Africa/Canada/Britain format: MAV: Kangaroo/Rhino/Grizzly/Challenger IMV: Brumby/Springbok/Cougar/Centaur (BTR-70) LAV: Dingo/Eland/Bobcat/Sentinel (BRDM-2) In addition to these, a Vickers Armoured Mobile Carrier, named the Saracen, is to be developed over the 1970s. This is to serve as a "battle taxi" for supporting troops in Europe and the Empire as part of a general move away from less protected lorries to even minimal safety. It is essentially a combination of the @ GKN Saxon and the South African Ratel. 2a.) The historical development of British infantry battalions resulted in - Light Role/Light Infantry - Mechanised Infantry (equipped with GKN Saxons) - Armoured Infantry (equipped with FV-510 Warriors) Here, the process will be similar, but not exactly the same - Light Infantry (Leg Infantry or a mix of Saracen AMCs, Land Rovers and lorries) - Mechanised Infantry (FV-432 Saxon APCs or Centaur IMVs) - Armoured Infantry (MACVs) Another way of looking at it would be the classic light, medium and heavy infantry split. In both Mechanised and Armoured infantry battalions, the ubiquitous FV-432 Saxon APCs will be present. 3.) Between 1961 and 1964, the RAF retires some 3010 aircraft (2458 combat aircraft and 552 transports), with many of the replacements going into operational reserve/attritional reserve. I'm putting together something on the defence spending forecasts and plans of the Barton Government for A New Jerusalem and will put together a bit of an orbat update to reflect that; there will be a 1967 Defence White Paper coming up. 4.) British Defence Spending between 1960 and 1966: 1960: $274,450,000,000 (12.5%) 1961: $267,350,040,480 (11.6%) 1962: $263,756,948,126 (11.1%) 1963: $261,475,806,953 (10.4%) 1964: $259,526,695,541 (9.9%) 1965: $287,347,003,083 (10%) 1966: $289,894,046,919 (9.3%) There will be a rise in 1967-1970 to reflect Vietnam and other costs. 5.) Some regional players are going to start to present a growing potential threat, or at least a complication.
1) So since all those three are 1-3 years older than Charles technically he's a toy boy.  What is the situation with his OTL mistress, now the Duchess of Cornwall. Is she or some DE equivalent about or going to emerge? With the more conservative social mores probably an ongoing mistress might be more acceptable in DE.
I'm a bit surprised religion would be a problem with a Greek marriage given that OTL Liz married Philip. Or that if it blocked a Spanish princess it wouldn't block an Italian, French, Austrian or some Germany options as they would also be Catholic, albeit probably with the exception of some Italian ones not as devoutly Catholic as the Spanish. Other differences I could see like any lingering Spanish designs on British territory.
2) It was slightly confusing that you reversed the order of the vehicles between the description and then the names. I was thinking oh here the Challenger is the light 6x6 vehicle then realised it was the heavier MAV.
3) That's a hell of a high GDP spending on defence, especially given how much larger and richer Britain is here.
5) Well there's plenty in the ME, possibly Indonesia, some independence movements in Africa and possibly Argentina and Guatemala. Probably some others as well.
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 22, 2020 15:45:07 GMT
Steve,
1.) At this stage, he is turning 19, which would make him that. At this point, he hasn't met his OTL mistress; they could meet, but her comparatively lower status wouldn't make her a first choice match. Of course, this could be an opportunity for a change to occur.
The religious differences are the cover for the deeper political differences, but still represent at least a small level of difference. Philip in @ was only nominally Greek Orthodox, whereas these princesses would be the real deal. The big issue with Greece is politics, given their imperial status and complicated relations with the Turks. For Spain, there is the issue of territorial revanchism and rather long term anti-Hispanic prejudice, as well as the match not serving any decisive political ends.
From a political point of view, the best matches would be Dutch, Belgian or Scandinavian, giving an opportunity to shore up British ties and influence in those areas.
2.) I just realised that and will go back and fix it up; it is what comes from pasting one part in from another file and writing up more details here.
3.) Yes, it is noticeably larger.
The historical levels were:
1960: 6.8% of $452,768 million ($30.79 billion)
1961: 6.8% of $467,794 million ($31.81 billion)
1962: 7.2% of $472,454 million ($33.984 billion)
1963: 7.0% of $490,625 million ($34.344 billion)
1964: 6.8% of $516,584 million ($35.128 billion)
1965: 6.7% of $529,996 million ($35.509 billion)
1966: 6.6% of $540,163 million ($35.65 billion)
However, there are number of factors at play
A.) General world size differentiation (160%)
B.) Ireland's @ GDP: 12 billion, which is larger still in Dark Earth than mere size due to a larger population, greater industrialisation, greater affluence and other factors ($36 billion in 1960)
C.) Lyonesse's GDP, which would be similar to Ireland + Northern Ireland from @ (~ $20 billion in 1960)
D.) Greater levels of spending, amounting to almost double in 1960
E.) The compounding effect of slightly different economic growth over time, particularly in the 20th century. The impact of different decades in the 1920s and 1950s isn't earthshaking at the time, but it adds up, just like compound interest.
In fact, I'll chuck some historical spending at the bottom of this post for information's sake
4.) You're right on the money there; Guatemala is not going to be a factor through sheer disparity of size. There is a fair bit brewing in Africa.
United States
1950: 8.1%
1951: 8.4%
1952: 14.1%
1953: 14.6%
1954: 13.5%
1955: 11.1%
1956: 10.5%
1957: 10.8%
1958: 10.7%
1959: 10.3%
1960: 9.8%
1961: 10.1%
1962: 10.5%
1963: 10.1%
1964: 9.5%
1965: 8.3%
1966: 8.5%
1967: 9.7%
1968: 10.0%
1969: 9.3%
Soviet Union
1951: 24.2%
1952: 23.4%
1953: 19.4%
1954: 18.3%
1955: 19.5%
1956: 17.1%
1957: 15%
1958: 14.3%
1959: 13.6%
1960: 14.5%
1961: 15.3%
1962: 16.1%
1963: 16.6%
1964: 15.7%
1965: 16 %
1966: 15.6%
1967: 15.8%
1968: 16.1%
1969: 16.4%
Britain
1950: 6%
1951: 9.9%
1952: 11.2%
1953: 11%
1954: 10%
1955: 8.8%
1956: 8.6%
1957: 7.8%
1958: 7.4%
1959: 7.1%
1960: 6.8%
1961: 6.8%
1962: 7.2%
1963: 7.0%
1964: 6.8%
1965: 6.7%
1966: 6.6%
1967: 6.8%
1968: 6.3%
1969: 5.6%
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 22, 2020 19:18:55 GMT
As a further point on changes to Commonwealth air force structures, combining the flight training programmes of Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Rhodesia, New Avalon, Prydain, Newfoundland, the West Indies, Kenya and Ceylon has several effects:
- It saves duplication of effort and expenditure
- It allows for joint funding of The Plan, reducing and allowing redirection of operational funding for each nation
- Allows the option of a larger pilot, aircrew and ground crew pool that is hoped will be eventually interchangeable
- Promotes operational cooperation within the various military forces
- Uses large war built facilities rather than having to build new individual ones, and saving space for some nations where it is at a premium
- Streamlines the exchange of pilots for some of the nascent air forces of newly self governing states
- Will eventually extend to all types of naval aviation training, including carrier qualification
- Replaces a British establishment of 687 RAF and 362 RN trainers, Canada 293 + 104, Australia 147 + 58, South Africa 110 + 40, NZ 72 + 18, NA 87 + 25, Rhodesia 56, Newfoundland 20 and Prydain 18.
- Produces enough pilots to cover peacetime attrition and turnover and streamlines recycling of surplus
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 22, 2020 19:37:59 GMT
As a further point on changes to Commonwealth air force structures, combining the flight training programmes of Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Rhodesia, New Avalon, Prydain, Newfoundland, the West Indies, Kenya and Ceylon has several effects: Is this the same as OTL British Commonwealth Air Training Plan from World War II. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 22, 2020 19:40:21 GMT
It is the same notion reworked for peacetime on a broader scale.
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Post by lordroel on Nov 22, 2020 19:43:46 GMT
It is the same notion reworked for peacetime on a broader scale. Minus the United States i assume. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 22, 2020 19:50:32 GMT
The USA was only peripherally involved in the wartime Plan through the recruitment of pilots and isn’t involved here.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 24, 2020 14:43:54 GMT
Some discussion on television reminded me to dig these out:
"As promised, some musings and reflections on popular culture:
- The 1960s thus far have been more of an extension of the 1950s in most identifiable terms.
- There hasn't been a Sexual Revolution. There is no Playboy; no publication of Kinsey; no Second Sex in 1949; films, television, books, magazines and plays are still under varying degrees of censorship; attitudes to contraception are strongly influenced by religion, which knocks the Pill firmly on the head.
- The social trends that lead to much of the Permissive Society of the latter half of the 1960s are either different or substantially retarded by social conservatism.
- This comes from the experience of almost continual war for a generation - WW2, Korea and the War of 1956 occur without much time between them.
- A higher degree of cultural Puritanism and a few moral panics in the 1950s take some of the wind out of the sails of those against corporal and capital punishment; the former will eventually wither away, but the latter may not.
- Welfare states have not evolved in precisely the same way as in @.
- Conscription and universal national service have also acted as a constraint on certain aspects of youth culture. Many notable British and American musicians, actors and artists find themselves in the armed forces and some may not survive the experience.
- One consequence of military service and the background of seemingly constant conflict is that military films and television programmes are quite in depth and accurate. There will be British and Commonwealth equivalents of The Big Picture.
- With advances in recording technology being a few years ahead of @ and budgets being slightly more liberal, there isn't the same wiping policy for British television.
- There isn't a Satire Boom in Britain, which down the line means no Monty Python, no Private Eye or any of their descendants, nor has there been a Goon Show of the same sort; even Carry On will be far more constrained. Across the Atlantic, the Beat Generation have not achieved a high public profile for a variety of reasons that will come out in due course in the timeline.
- Space exploration and the consequences of intelligent species on Luna, Mars and Venus has a large impact upon society and in particular on attitudes towards other races; skin deep differences don't seem quite as big, reinforcing some other trends developing from intelligent non-human species on Earth.
- The presence of real superheroes has proved to be something of a morale boost and boon to certain societies, reinforcing their self image and faith in their exceptionalism.
- A lack of the same levels of mass migration to Britain from the West Indies, India and the Empire has already had consequences. There haven't been the Notting Hill Riots nor any particularly widespread social disorder and the non-white population (~70,000 West Indian, 35,000 Indian and 20,000 Chinese) is very firmly concentrated in London, with smaller communities in Bristol, Liverpool and Glasgow. As said in the Dark Earth World Gazetteer, this is ~0.1% as compared to ~0.4% of the population and further generational growth will be slower due to more obstacles in the path of family migration.
- This means that there won't be the same backlash against immigration, no Rivers of Blood speech and no growth of an equivalent to the National Front.
- As discussed in Never Had it So Good, it has a noticeable effect on the evolution of British cuisine.
- No commercial television in Britain will have some very broad consequences.
- General standards of health, diet, fitness, height and life expectancy are better."
On television:
"It wouldn't be to everyone's tastes. It may well be inoffensive, without any profanity, nudity, sexually explicit material, indecency, obscenity, explicit violence and what not, but what remains is hardly bland. There is a code that has been put in place by the Ministry of Information, but it isn't quite the Hays Code.
There are still quiz shows, current affairs programmes, comedy and variety shoes, all manner of sports broadcasts, nature, history and science documentaries, contemporary and historical drama, police/crime shows, Westerns, Northerns and Easterns and plenty more beside"
"Bernard's earlier point did inspire me to reflect upon which television programmes of the 1950s, 60s and early 70s would or would not occur. Direct equivalents would be around in some cases, whereas others are less likely to occur. Here is a little list:
Yes
The Great War
Blue Peter
Dad's Army
University Challenge
Comedy Playhouse
The Forsyte Saga
Jeeves and Wooster
Dixon of Dock Green
Civilisation
This is Your Life
Match of the Day
The Benny Hill Show
The Two Ronnies
The Black and White Minstrel Show
Zoo Quest
The Sky at Night
African Patrol
The Adventures of Robin Hood
The Adventures of William Tell
Sword of Freedom
Songs of Praise
The Good Old Days
World of Sport
Richard the Lionheart
Sir Francis Drake
An Age of Kings
The Sooty Show
Biggles
Play School
Danger Man
A British equivalent to The Big Picture
No
Doctor Who
Quatermass
Adam Adamant Lives
The Avengers
The first three wouldn't be made, even if the ideas were around, due to the important positions held by their eponymous characters. In the last case, divergent social mores point towards markedly different developments in the 1960s. There may well be some sort of series with a well-dressed secret agent and a female sidekick, but it won't be very similar.
The Prisoner
Apart from The Village existing, the general themes and plot would be too subversive to make it past the censors of the Ministry of Information
Z-Cars
Gritty social realism is not a favoured genre of the powers that be.
Beyond the Fringe
Monty Python
Fawlty Towers
One thing leads to another, or not, in this case. To expand in a non-facetious way, the lack of the same type of Goons, different social consequences stemming from the events of 1956 and the dearth of the satire boom and a loosening of restrictions stymie the growth of Python and their antecedents.
The War Game
Not a hope of being made, let along released later down the line.
Top of the Pops
Unlikely without the meteoric rise of pop music and associated youth culture.
Till Death Us Do Part
So many different factors make it unviable.
Maybe
Coronation Street
Some sort of version of Sherlock Holmes is possible, even if he is a living historical figure, as his adventures stretch back to the Victorian period and are quite famous.
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What is the situation with his OTL mistress, now the Duchess of Cornwall. Is she or some DE equivalent about or going to emerge? With the more conservative social mores probably an ongoing mistress might be more acceptable in DE.