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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 3, 2021 0:24:59 GMT
Their size is larger; the details of the length of all Western carriers are in the Orders of Battle thread.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 3, 2021 2:01:22 GMT
USN Aircraft Plans for the 1970s USN 1.) The Grumman F-14 Tomcat is due to enter service in mid 1969 to replace the current mixture of F-8 Crusader III and F-4J Phantom II fighter squadrons. It will be unquestionably the most powerful carrier fighter in the world, combining a very long range, exceptionally heavy armament (up to 8 AIM-54 air to air missiles), advanced new avionics, versatile ground attack capacity and superb dog fighting performance. 2.) The mainstay of the fleet over Vietnam has been the Phantom and it is considered that it will continue as a frontline fighter-bomber throughout the 1970s whilst it’s replacement is developed under the VFAX programme. This began in 1967 and aims to develop a fighter-bomber that provides at least a 25% improvement over the Phantom across the board. 3.) The current Light Attack A-7 Corsair II and A-4 Skyhawk squadrons and the Attack Squadrons equipped with the A-6 Intruder are to be replaced by the VAX, a single supersonic naval attack aircraft capable of carrying a large conventional or nuclear payload in a strike role, with an explicit anti-ship mission speciality. 4.) The combination A-5 Vigilante and F-111B Vindicator II have performed the heavy attack/carrier bomber role with aplomb for several years, but current plans call for them to be replaced with an evolved and improved version of the F-111B by 1972. Development of a replacement of the A-3 Skywarrior in the stand off nuclear delivery role is well underway. 5.) Development of the licenced McDonnell Douglas AV-8 Harrier into a more advanced ground attack/close air support aircraft is underway, with significant advances anticipated, given the more focused USN and USMC light attack requirement. 6.) Replacement of the S-2 Tracker ASW aircraft with a multirole twin jet aircraft combining ASW, ASuW, ground attack and reconnaissance has been given a high priority, given the imminent retirement of the older anti submarine CVSs. First does the F14 carry the AAM-N-10 Eagle Air to Air missile ore was the missile like canceled like OTL with lessons learned used in the development of the AIM-54 Phoenix missile. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 3, 2021 5:40:47 GMT
There was no F-6 project nor Eagle missile to be cancelled in the first instance. Instead, the AIM-47 Falcon was adapted for limited naval use.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 6, 2021 18:02:12 GMT
What then of the RN and it’s plans for the same period?
1.) The de Havilland Vanguard fighter is a top line plane not that far behind the Tomcat in performance and fills a similar role.
2.) Filling the fighter-bomber niche is the Phantom and there is no pressing need for its replacement, allowing the process to be unrushed.
3.) The attack role is filled by the Buccaneer, which, although a 1950s design, is still a very capable carrier strike plane.
4.) The Hawker-Siddeley P.1121 Merlin is an extremely capable naval strike aircraft, but the RN does want something with longer legs.
5.) Leading the world as a carrier based bomber, the Supermarine Excalibur provides range and performance. There are efforts underway to make full use of this by incorporating air to air missiles and longer range strike missiles.
6.) On the light carriers and the new escort carriers, on capital ships and cruisers and on every major amphibious ship, we find the Sea Harrier. It is versatile, capable and fairly short ranged compared to the big carrier jets.
Therefore, the major priorities are for 2 and 4. Initially invited to tender by the Admiralty have been Fairey, Hawker-Siddeley, de Havilland and Bristol. Merging the two roles was proposed but discouraged. Simply converting the Tornado for either has its supporters.
The RNAS has avoided being foisted with the F-111 despite heavy lobbying and will field the TSR-2 as a replacement for the Valiant in most of its bomber roles.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 7, 2021 4:40:04 GMT
What then of the RN and it’s plans for the same period? The RNAS has avoided being foisted with the F-111 despite heavy lobbying and will field the TSR-2 as a replacement for the Valiant in most of its bomber roles. So what about fighters like the F-14 for the RNAS. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 7, 2021 6:55:53 GMT
Not happening. The mid 60s Phantom deal was the exception, not the rule. Should there be a requirement for a long range fighter, then it would be filled by Vanguards flying from land bases.
However, long range air defence is the responsibility of the RAF, who have longer range fighters in the form of the Arrow and the Delta II.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 7, 2021 12:56:38 GMT
Of the aforementioned companies competing for the fighter-bomber and strike aircraft contracts, there is a certain interest in spreading the development around to support the five major aircraft groups.
Vickers hasn’t been invited to tender at this time, as it very busy with military and civil aircraft and missiles.
Hawker Siddeley is the largest group and thus the one in least need of a new large contract.
De Havilland has the Tornado, various Shorts transports and flying boats and Handley-Pages jet airliners, in addition to a myriad of missiles.
This leaves Armstrong-Whitworth and Bristol. Fairey, part of the A-W conglomerate, have the Rotodyne, but the Delta II hasn’t been the smash hit that the Delta was (it taking a lot of Mirage III customers from @). This puts them up highly in the view of the Admiralty and other ministries as a contender for the strike plane.
It would look like the Vought Model 507 with an F-15 tail.
Whilst H-S and dH have very capable designs that could fill the fighter-bomber role, there is a certain logic to it going to the tactical aircraft marque in the Bristol conglomerate, English Electric. If they were to add a widely selling fighter bomber to their successful Lightning sales, on top of their debut Canberra and a long range strike plane under development, then it would definitely shore up the group and EE in particular.
This plane will look like the HS P.1207 design of @.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 7, 2021 16:13:19 GMT
Royal Air Force Plans and Projections for the 1970s:
As of 1968, the RAF has the following combat aircraft and role combination:
Hawker-Siddeley Harrier: Attack Fighter
Gloster Lion: CAS
McDonnell-Douglas/Hawker-Siddeley Phantom: Fighter/Ground Attack/Tactical Recce
DH Tornado: Strike Fighter
Vickers Thunderbolt: Strike Bomber
Hawker-Siddeley Merlin: Strike Fighter/Bomber
Supermarine Sunstar: Air Superiority Fighter
EE Lightning: Interceptor
Fairey Delta II: Long Range Fighter
Avro Arrow: Very Long Range/Escort Fighter
Supermarine Eagle TSR-2: Medium Strike Bomber
Avro Vulcan: Strategic Heavy Bomber
Handley-Page Vengeance: Strategic Medium Pathfinder Bomber
Avro 730 Vindicator: Strategic Recce
Supermarine Victory: Strategic Heavy Penetration Bomber
There is a desire to consolidate this array of sixteen types down to a dozen; emphasise/support/protect British aviation manufacturers; and save money where possible.
To this end, the following ideas for the 1970s are developing:
- Combine the roles of the Arrow and Delta II in a single aircraft
- Combine the roles of the Vengeance and Vindicator in a single Mach 3+ bomber
- Eventually develop the Tornado so it can replace the Phantom; spread out the cost and development
- The “Spitfire” and “Hurricane” replace the Sunstar and Merlin respectively
The Harrier will likely be ‘replaced’ by a developed ASTOVL version of the same general design with an enlarged big wing, larger engine, advanced radar, titanium armour and a front end looking like the P.1216.
The Hurricane will end up looking like a cross between the HS P.1202 and the Mirage 2000, with elements of the HS P.1096 wing. It will start off with the same general niche as the F-16 and Mirage 2000 and likely take on the f/b role.
The Supermarine advanced fighter will look like a cross between a MiG-25, an F-15 and a Mirage 4000. A big, powerful fighter designed for combat over France, Germany and Scandinavia from British bases.
The Vengeance/Vindicator replacement will look something like some of the EE P.42 designs with less blocky intakes.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 7, 2021 16:14:45 GMT
The Harrier will likely be ‘replaced’ by a developed ASTOVL version of the same general design with an enlarged big wing, larger engine, advanced radar, titanium armour and a front end looking like the P.1216. Looks like a real jet fighter of the future. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 7, 2021 16:38:54 GMT
It will be the same to the P.1154 as the AV-16 was to the P.1127 - an enlarged, advanced version with increased range and warload.
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Post by lordroel on Dec 7, 2021 16:45:41 GMT
It will be the same to the P.1154 as the AV-16 was to the P.1127 - an enlarged, advanced version with increased range and warload. More than the current Harrier most likely, otherwise why would you design and build a new jet. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 7, 2021 16:57:20 GMT
It is an upgrade in the same way as the Super Hornet is an upgrade of the Hornet.
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Post by lordroel on Dec 7, 2021 17:12:56 GMT
It is an upgrade in the same way as the Super Hornet is an upgrade of the Hornet. Could the Harrier not be upgraded. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 7, 2021 17:29:32 GMT
It is being upgraded - it takes the design, adds in modern avionics, radar and a new engine, increases protection and adds a larger wing. It takes the late 1950s design and brings it forward in a similar manner as the AV-8B over the AV-8. The photo in the first post here is illustrative: www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=26773.0 |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 9, 2021 15:48:14 GMT
Royal Navy Ship Plans for the 1970s
Aircraft Carriers
- The 5 Malta class carriers are to be replaced by 4 new construction CVNs over the second half of the decade. They are scheduled to go to reserve, but it is unlikely they would be recommissioned short of a major world war.
- The CVSL programme will be completed by 1972, allowing a shift in priority to more of the CVEs and commando carriers.
Battleships
- The KGVs were decommissioned from 1966 and the Lions will begin to follow in 1969. The Vanguards will begin to follow from 1971 and the Superbs from 1973. This will lead to a rather large contraction in the battlefleet. In addition to 1960s construction, new ships will be ordered from 1970, so that a target fleet of 15 capital ships can be maintained by 1975
Battlecruisers
- Development of a new 90,000t design is well underway with the aim of replacing the old decommissioned Orions, providing a heavy carrier escort, countering Soviet and Chinese ships and leading independent surface action groups.
Cruisers
- This ship type is where the RN is about to suffer the largest drop, with the decommissioning of the wartime Hero and Tiger class missile conversions. This loss of 24 ships will leave the RN with 32 Leander CLGs and 12 County CAGNs, short of its requirement of 60 ships (two Leanders and one County for each fleet carrier and a minimum of twelve ships to cover other deployments and amphibious forces).
- In addition to further Counties, a new class of lighter guided missile cruisers is needed, which would take the better part of a decade to design and produce from 1968.
Destroyers
- One factor allowing the RN to reduce cruiser numbers is the versatile Type 42 ‘Town class’ DLGs which, at 12500t, are the weight of a Second World War light cruiser. Their armament of 5.25” guns is the same as older destroyers and the new Type 21 frigates. They are to carry two new SAM systems and greatly increased SSM and ASM batteries.
- The oldest DDGs will be converted to FFGs as they enter service (A, B, C and D class), whilst the others are to be upgraded gradually.
Frigates
- The RN has prioritised the Type 21 in the second half of the 1960s and this will be followed by construction of a specialised AAW version in the 1970s. The frontline force will then consist of the Type 21s, the new Type 22s and the Tribals, with the River class being mostly in reserve, along with the reclassified Hunt class. The Type 12 Whitbys have been sold due to their lack of helicopter facilities.
Corvettes
- A lot of new construction ships here with new missile capacity, replacing the older and larger ships
OPVs
- The Black Swans have been split off from Coastal Forces and provide another layer of ASW escorts.
- Larger sloops discussed in ANJ are entering service
Amphibious Warships
- New commando carriers are the 1970s priority, along with modernisation of the fairly young remainder of the amphibious fleet.
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