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Post by La Rouge Beret on Mar 15, 2021 22:00:06 GMT
As others have said quite eloquently the leg up provided by the American logistical tail has to be seen to be believed as it is a huge force multiplier, another option could be setting up a field hospital in Netherlands New Guinea. You might then need to protect the hospital with ground forces and SAMs, it might then be placed near a harbour or airfield to facilitate evacuation. This is before we consider U - 2 overflights, EW Signint planes that just trawl up and down in international air space - both of which would be particularly helpful.
IOTL the RSAF Hunters were flown from the UK over the middle east and onto Singapore, in this case the Dutch could then fly them across the pond (assuming air to air refueling is available). How they island hop from the USA to Netherlands New Guinea is anyone's guess, but there would be a team of pilots and mechanics to deal with the fatigue for all & sundry. Considering the timeframe the tanker would probably also have open ocean navigation duties for the transit flight.
The other point that this raises is does it embolden other countries that have claims on Dutch territory to seize them, such as Venezuela with the Dutch Caribbean possessions?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 16, 2021 10:18:16 GMT
As others have said quite eloquently the leg up provided by the American logistical tail has to be seen to be believed as it is a huge force multiplier, another option could be setting up a field hospital in Netherlands New Guinea. You might then need to protect the hospital with ground forces and SAMs, it might then be placed near a harbour or airfield to facilitate evacuation. This is before we consider U - 2 overflights, EW Signint planes that just trawl up and down in international air space - both of which would be particularly helpful. IOTL the RSAF Hunters were flown from the UK over the middle east and onto Singapore, in this case the Dutch could then fly them across the pond (assuming air to air refueling is available). How they island hop from the USA to Netherlands New Guinea is anyone's guess, but there would be a team of pilots and mechanics to deal with the fatigue for all & sundry. Considering the timeframe the tanker would probably also have open ocean navigation duties for the transit flight. The other point that this raises is does it embolden other countries that have claims on Dutch territory to seize them, such as Venezuela with the Dutch Caribbean possessions?
Good point but I suspect not in the latter case. For one thing that is in the US's 'back-yard', even if it is outside the formal NATO area, so I suspect Washington would be determined to stamp down hard on that. For another Venezuela also has claims on what's now Trinidad and Tobago and Guyana both of which in this time period being British colonies so that would also set alarm bells ringing in London. However its possible that they might try putting some political pressure on.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 16, 2021 10:35:32 GMT
All Given the discussion about what the Netherlands can theoretically send one issue we haven't touch on is their will for such a fight. They have made a moral commitment to allow the region to become independent rather than conquered by Indonesia - which pretty much mean Java and the junta there. However if it means sending a substantial amount of their military to the region, even with allies helping with logistics that's going to be financially expensive, not to mention materials and quite probably men. There's also going to be the issue that since they can't crush Indonesia and occupy Java say the junta has the option of withdrawing to a Konfrontasi attitude or even signing some sort of cease fire with the potential to reopen the conflict at a later stage. The Dutch can't really keep large military forces based in the region indefinitely and its doubtful if West New Guinea is strong enough to defend its against Indonesia. It would need a widespread acceptance of the colonies right to exist as an independent state with formal treaty commitment to defend it from attack. Under those circumstances will the Dutch fight and for how long would they be willing to?
Steve
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Mar 16, 2021 14:57:54 GMT
You are right in that the Dutch are potentially signing an open letter that has huge ramifications down the track. Particularly as Indonesia grows in strength and their centre mass is in Europe. The worst outcome for them and NATO is a frozen conflict that saps their strength.
Which leaves us with a multi lateral solution to safeguard Netherlands New Guinea probably involving SEATO, but practically underwritten by Australia, New Zealand, the UK & the USA.
I also wouldn't underestimate the stubbornness of the Cloggies, when they've turned their mind to something.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 28, 2021 18:04:13 GMT
February 12, 1959 Amsterdam, Netherlands
Reports from New Guinea were flooding in to The Hauge. The information was somewhat confused with conflicting reports in some cases being sent. Minister Staf had been in his office or in meeting rooms since yesterday evening. He had just arrived at his home after a long day in the office when his phone began ringing. Indonesia had launched an unprovoked attack against West New Guinea. He had rushed back to the office in record time. For the second time in twenty years, his country was going to war. For there was no question that they would have to respond to Indonesia's aggression with force.
But with what? That was the question that everyone was struggling with. The Netherlands was no longer that globe spanning empire that it had been just a few short years ago and the cupboard was very bare. Kees felt like he was standing on a knife edge. There were rumors that the Soviets may have "assisted" Indonesia in launching the attack against their patrol plane and frigates. If they had, that had dangerous implications for the rest of Europe. Despite numerous claims to the contrary, NATO was in no way, shape, or form ready to fight the Soviets on the ground. At least not without the heavy use of nuclear weapons. He should know, he'd just spend all of last night and today being briefed by his staff on the readiness of all Dutch military forces and that of their allies. He had also had numerous phone calls with his fellow Ministers and Secretaries of Defense in NATO trying to gauge their reaction to this wanton attack. Australia and The United Kingdom had voiced a cautious willingness to assist, as Indonesia also had claims to their territory in the region, while the United States had offered to assist in moving any men and equipment that the Netherlands could scrape together from Europe to the Southwest Pacific. Beyond that, there was not much support to be found. He had requested that the United States deploy the Nineteenth Air Force to West New Guinea in an effort to deter further Indonesian aggression. He was not encouraged by their reply. In his gut, he felt sure that the Netherlands would have to go it alone.
Pouring over the data his staff had worked tirelessly to prepare, Kees began to formulate the Netherland's response plan. Once he had the bones of the operation worked out, he would take the plan to the rest of the Cabinet for final approval. With luck, his colleagues in the Cabinet would see the urgency of the matter and not delay too long in approving it. But in the mean time, he could at least put a few selected units on alert and implement some previously approved contingency plans. Calling in his aides, he began to issue the orders.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 28, 2021 18:09:52 GMT
February 12, 1959 Amsterdam, Netherlands
Aboard the Cannon class destroyer escorts Van Ewijk and De Zeeuw, the orders from the Ministry of Defense sending them to the Southwest Pacific were met with frantic activity. The two ships had been placed on alert two weeks earlier and their crews had been working nearly around the clock since then to fully provision and prepare their ships for a lengthy deployment to the Pacific. Now those warning orders had become real ones. The two ships were expected to be fully fueled, armed and underway within twenty-four hours.
Two weeks ago, both Captains had cursed the warning orders and the long hours that they had meant. Now they were blessing them. In the last two weeks, both ships had been brought to a state of readiness that they hadn't seen in years. Minor repairs that normally would have been left to the ship's crew to complete as time became available had been seen to by the veritable army of dockyard workers that had descended on the two ships. Their own contingency plans were now implemented to complement those of the Defense Ministry. Trucks full of perishable and canned foods began to appear along the pier followed shortly after by trucks carrying small arms ammunition and the final few rounds needed to top off the ship's 3" magazine. Other trucks brought additional depth charges and anti-submarine mortar rounds for the Hedgehog.
Across the harbor at the submarine piers, the Zeeleeuw had received similar orders. Unlike the two surface ships though, she was in all respects ready for sea. Within two hours of receiving the order sending her to the Pacific, Zeeleeuw was casting off her lines and getting underway. While by no means modern, the old Balao class submarine and her crew were determined to make their presence in the area felt. While her movement orders were public knowledge, the rest of her orders had been highly classified and were not to be opened until the old submarine was well out to sea.
Upon reaching the location specified in his orders, Zeeleeuw's Captain opened his orders in his tiny cabin and quickly sucked in his breath. Orders like these had not been seen outside of training operations since 1945. The words were terse and to the point. Zeeleeuw was ordered to conduct unrestricted submarine warfare against any Indonesian flagged vessel. However, strict instructions were given to ensure that no Soviet flagged vessel was targeted without prior authorization from The Hauge.
The Royal Netherlands Navy was going to war.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 28, 2021 18:12:24 GMT
February 12, 1959
In Washington, DC, London, Canberra, and Wellington Indonesia's ambassadors meet with the heads of each country's diplomatic service. In nearly identical letters, Indonesia informs the four countries with interests in the region that they have no intention of engaging any of their military forces in combat. They stress that President Sukarno has full confidence that any territorial disputes that they may have with the four countries can be resolved peacefully and without bloodshed. Yet they are also clear that Indonesia is determined to see their territory and people on West Irian returned to them. And while they regret that the situation has devolved into a military confrontation, they insist that Indonesia is simply exercising their right to self defense, as in their view, the Dutch are an illegal occupying power and that West Irian is rightfully a part of Indonesia.
The message falls flat in all four capitols. However it does offer them a fig leaf to hide behind should they decide against aiding the Netherlands militarily. While not much, none of the countries involved has any real desire to fight yet another war in the Pacific so soon after the Second World War and Korean War had ended.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 28, 2021 18:21:20 GMT
February 12, 1959 London, United Kingdom
The reports from the Southwest Pacific were not good. A Dutch maritime patrol plane had been shot down and a destroyer had been sunk. Despite the reassurances from Indonesia that they had no intention of attacking any Commonwealth territory, taking them at their word would be worse than foolish. It was only twenty years past that a different British government had been given similar assurances from another country. That had ended with German tanks rolling into Paris, London in ruins, and a years long struggle to win through to ultimate victory.
The British and Commonwealth position in the region was better than the Netherlands, but not by much. While they had the Far East Strategic Reserve in place in Singapore centered on HMS Albion and the 28th Commonwealth Infantry Brigade Group in Terendak, Malaya, it was not a force capable of prosecuting a war on their own. Should Indonesia decide "in for a penny, in for a pound" and launch attacks on British territory, they would need immediate and rapid reinforcement if they were to have any chance at victory.
If a few corners were cut, it might be possible to get HMS Victorious to Singapore within two months, though her Air Group would almost certainly need to work up along the way. Eagle was about to enter Devonport Dockyard for an extensive modernization and was thus unavailable. Ark Royal was working up to deploy to the Far East later in the year and had more modern aircraft embarked than Albion. With proper care, she could be in Singapore within a month. With a little luck, the Royal Navy, backed by the Royal Australian Navy, would be in good shape should the balloon go up.
The Royal Air Force, while nowhere near as ill-equipped as their Dutch counterparts, was still not what anyone would call lavishly equipped. Currently, the RAF had Nos 45 and 60 Squadrons flying de Haviland Venom FB.4s alongside No 81 Squadron flying a combination of Gloster Meteor PR.10s and English Electric Canberra PR.7s in Singapore and Malaya. No 28 Squadron was also in the Far East, though it was based at RAF Kai Tak in Hong Kong while the other Far East squadrons were at RAF Tengah. But if it was needed, the squadron could be redeployed to the area, though the thought of leaving Hong Kong underdefended in the face of Communist Chinese aggression made more than a few backsides pucker. There were also several transport squadrons in the theater, and although they would be worth their weight in gold should the Army have to go back into the jungle to root out Indonesian infiltrators, they could provide little combat capability against Indonesia's rapidly modernizing Air Force.
In reviewing the available options to reinforce the Far East, the decision is made to put No 6 Squadron flying Canberra B.2 bombers on alert for possible deployment from RAF Akrotiri on Cyprus to RAAF Butterworth in Malaya. No 43 Squadron at RAF Khormaksar in Aden, equipped with Hawker Hunter F.6s, was also put on alert for possible movement to the Far East. Some thought was also given to deploying a Gloster Meteor equipped night fighter squadron, but in the end, it was ruled out on the grounds that the Meteor was thoroughly obsolete and would be very unlikely to successfully engage any targets flying at night.
Unfortunately, there was not as much that could be done to reinforce the 28th. It would take months to ship all the men and equipment needed for anything more than a flag showing exercise. The United Kingdom would have to rely on the Australians and New Zealanders to pick up the slack there.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 28, 2021 18:23:00 GMT
February 12, 1959 Amsterdam, NetherlandsThe Royal Netherlands Navy was going to war. And a long journey ahead for the ships as Egypt will most likley close the Suez canal for all Dutch ships.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 28, 2021 18:30:47 GMT
February 13, 1959 Washington, DC, USA
In a daylong meeting between Secretaries Neil McElroy and John Dulles with President Eisenhower, the naked aggression of Indonesia and the American response to it is discussed. It is a contentious meeting, particularly when CIA Director Allen Dulles is called in. President Eisenhower, backed by both Mr McElroy and Mr Dulles, places the blame for the current mess in the Far East squarely on Dulles' door and his botched operation to overthrow President Sukarno. Only a last minute near-groveling apology by Dulles keeps the President from demanding his resignation. After getting the CIA's official assessment of Indonesia's current capabilities and the likelihood of succeeding in taking West New Guinea from the Netherlands, which the CIA regards as high, he is dismissed from the meeting. The CIA will play little role in the crises going forward.
In particular, the Dutch request for the deployment of the Nineteenth Air Force is heavily debated. While it would certainly show the United States' commitment to the region, it would also almost certainly drag the United States into yet another war in Asia, their third in less than twenty years. That was not a situation that would be looked at favorably domestically. Particularly since this would be seen, rightly, as nothing more than fighting to preserve a European colony. By the close of the meeting, and after calling in the various Service Secretaries and Uniformed Heads of the services, a compromise is reached.
The Nineteenth Air Force would deploy to the Far East. But not to Mokmer Airfield as requested by the Dutch. It would be sent to Clark Field in the Philippines instead. Within three hours of the decision being made, B-57 Canberra bombers were on their way to the Philippines from the 345th Bombardment Wing at Langley Air Force Base. They would be followed by KB-50J air refueling tankers whose mission would be to get the F-100 Super Sabres from the 354th Tactical Fighter Wing across the Pacific. Following the fighters would be the RF-101s of the 363rd Tactical Reconnaissance Wing. Thirty-six hours after issuing the alert, F-100s were positioned on the alert ramp at Clark, ready to respond to any Indonesian aggression.
Two carrier task forces centered on USS Yorktown (CVS-10) and USS Ticonderoga (CVA-14) were also given orders to divert from their planned Far East cruise into the region, with port visits to Sydney and Darwin being added. It was hoped that the presence of two American carriers and an entire fighter wing in the region would cool tensions and allow diplomacy to resume.
As a final show of American interest in the theater, discussions are opened with the Philippines about conducting a joint jungle warfare exercise featuring the Fifth Marine Regiment from Camp Pendleton in California. Though being called an exercise, all involved knew it was merely a cover to get an entire regiment of Marines into the theater should everything go to hell.
Though the United States was sending the most combat power into the theater by a large margin, they conversely had the lowest appetite to actually commit those forces to combat. After multiple calls are made to the Governments of Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands and New Zealand, it is made very clear to everyone involved that, baring Indonesia escalating the war and attack British, Australian or American interests in the region, the United States would not actually commit their forces to combat. In short, the American presence in the region was one gigantic bluff.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 28, 2021 18:33:04 GMT
February 12, 1959 Amsterdam, NetherlandsThe Royal Netherlands Navy was going to war. And a long journey ahead for the ships as Egypt will most likley close the Suez canal for all Dutch ships. Theoretically, they are required to allow passage of warships through the canal, even when those warships are sailing to war, as long as they are not at war with Egypt. Though that requirement never stopped them from closing the canal before.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 28, 2021 18:44:33 GMT
February 12, 1959 Amsterdam, NetherlandsAboard the Cannon class destroyer escorts Van Ewijk and De Zeeuw HNLMS Van Ewijck looks nice, but will she be able to go head to head with Indonesian ships. Also ssgtc, this is a Dutch site about the Karel Doorman, it has some nice info if you use Google translate: smaldeel 5
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 28, 2021 19:18:13 GMT
February 12, 1959 Amsterdam, NetherlandsAboard the Cannon class destroyer escorts Van Ewijk and De Zeeuw HNLMS Van Ewijck looks nice, but will she be able to go head to head with Indonesian ships. Also ssgtc, this is a Dutch site about the Karel Doorman, it has some nice info if you use Google translate: smaldeel 5 It depends on what she finds. She's less capable in an anti-ship or anti-air role than either of the two frigates that were already out there. But she is deadly against submarines.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 29, 2021 2:49:33 GMT
But she is deadly against submarines. Who could like OTL be commanded by Soviet crew.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 29, 2021 18:50:50 GMT
Following with interest though I have little if any to add. Be interesting what the Dutch will commit of boots on the ground though the timetable of such will be long if not lifted by the USAF/MATS.
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