ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 15, 2021 15:45:25 GMT
IIRC CAC Avon Sabres in the time frame. Good looking plane in RAAF colors.  So how will it handle against the Indonesian Migs. All three squadrons were flying Avon Sabres at this time. That model of Sabre is about equal in performance to the MiG-17. Going up against Indonesian pilots, the RAAF should have at least a slight edge in training and experience. But if they go up against Soviet "volunteers" all bets are off |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 15, 2021 15:48:10 GMT
Here is a YouTube clip of one of these OTL radars, it is bad quality but is shows one in action. I can't read Dutch but judging by the antennas, there was both an air search two dimensional surveillance and a height finding radar. That and compatible comms are all you need for a ground AIC to vector the fighter jocks onto targets. Been there. Done that. The trick is getting the fighter Jocks to trust you. 
What i could find is that the radar site to monitor the airspace over Biak consisted of two 15 meter high towers for the SGR-109 height search radars and a 25 meter tower for the SGR-114 search radar. The SGR-114 and 109 were very good radars from Philips and HSA. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 15, 2021 15:48:14 GMT
Here is a YouTube clip of one of these OTL radars, it is bad quality but is shows one in action. I can't read Dutch but judging by the antennas, there was both an air search two dimensional surveillance and a height finding radar. That and compatible comms are all you need for a ground AIC to vector the fighter jocks onto targets. Been there. Done that. The trick is getting the fighter Jocks to trust you.
322 Squadron has been exercising with the ground controllers since their arrival in West New Guinea. That'll help, but the Fresco is still death on a wing to the Meteor. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 15, 2021 15:49:56 GMT
I can't read Dutch but judging by the antennas, there was both an air search two dimensional surveillance and a height finding radar. That and compatible comms are all you need for a ground AIC to vector the fighter jocks onto targets. Been there. Done that. The trick is getting the fighter Jocks to trust you.
322 Squadron has been exercising with the ground controllers since their arrival in West New Guinea. That'll help, but the Fresco is still death on a wing to the Meteor. No sidewinders for the Meteors. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 15, 2021 16:10:51 GMT
322 Squadron has been exercising with the ground controllers since their arrival in West New Guinea. That'll help, but the Fresco is still death on a wing to the Meteor. No sidewinders for the Meteors. Nope. Guns only. Not that the Sidewinder was much of an improvement at this point. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 15, 2021 16:12:03 GMT
No sidewinders for the Meteors. Nope. Guns only. Not that the Sidewinder was much of an improvement at this point. So it is going to be old fashion gun versus gun battles. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Mar 15, 2021 16:14:05 GMT
The US is giving Indonesia some serious side eye while sighing and pulling out the playbook for Pacific War 2: Electric Boogaloo Wich will draw in the Soviets. Maybe not all that much. The Soviet Pacific squadron doesn't have the logistics to support extended, high intensity ops around Indonesia. One US "Carrier Task Force" (what we called a CSG in those days) would mean real trouble for the Soviets. The USN has both the warships and auxiliaries to operate continuously off Indonesia for as long as they want. The US also has a proven "expeditionary" air capability second to none. The Dutch air bases would be flooded with top of the line USAF aircraft defended by US Army AA missile batteries dispatched from the Philippines. The use of US force in a conventional war would be overwhelming and the Soviets know that. I'd guess Indonesia is not worth the risk to the soviets to direct confront the USA. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 15, 2021 16:24:00 GMT
Wich will draw in the Soviets. Maybe not all that much. The Soviet Pacific squadron doesn't have the logistics to support extended, high intensity ops around Indonesia. One US "Carrier Task Force" (what we called a CSG in those days) would mean real trouble for the Soviets. The USN has both the warships and auxiliaries to operate continuously off Indonesia for as long as they want. The US also has a proven "expeditionary" air capability second to none. The Dutch air bases would be flooded with top of the line USAF aircraft defended by US Army AA missile batteries dispatched from the Philippines. The use of US force in a conventional war would be overwhelming and the Soviets know that. I'd guess Indonesia is not worth the risk to the soviets to direct confront the USA.
True but that assumes that Indonesia thinks the US will fight. To paraphrase Ms West "its not the men in the fight its the fight in the men." If they decide that the US will support their ally then they will back down but its unlikely in the short term since they have launched their attacks so they obviously think the US won't fight, or possibly despite what Moscow are probably telling them that in such a case the Soviets would back them. If they guess wrong then they would get slapped down hard as you say and their hopes of annexating more territory would take a big hit.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 15, 2021 16:25:50 GMT
Wich will draw in the Soviets. Maybe not all that much. The Soviet Pacific squadron doesn't have the logistics to support extended, high intensity ops around Indonesia. One US "Carrier Task Force" (what we called a CSG in those days) would mean real trouble for the Soviets. The USN has both the warships and auxiliaries to operate continuously off Indonesia for as long as they want. The US also has a proven "expeditionary" air capability second to none. The Dutch air bases would be flooded with top of the line USAF aircraft defended by US Army AA missile batteries dispatched from the Philippines. The use of US force in a conventional war would be overwhelming and the Soviets know that. I'd guess Indonesia is not worth the risk to the soviets to direct confront the USA. Pretty much this. If the US decides that this is a line in the sand moment and fully commits to the defense of West New Guinea, this war ends one way and one way only. But to be honest, that's not very likely. They could and probably would offer support and maybe even fly combat missions. But they wild still expect the Netherlands to do the heavy lifting to defend their own colony. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 15, 2021 16:27:56 GMT
But they wild still expect the Netherlands to do the heavy lifting to defend their own colony. That is going to be a problem as the Netherlands might have some issues getting men and material there. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Mar 15, 2021 17:19:24 GMT
But they wild still expect the Netherlands to do the heavy lifting to defend their own colony. That is going to be a problem as the Netherlands might have some issues getting men and material there. I agree with ssgtc the US will help but the Netherlands will still have to do the heavy lifting.
One thing the USA military brings to any situation is by far the world's most powerful logistics organization. MATS (Military Air Transport Service) with literally hundreds of aircraft would be more than capable of airlifting as many Dutch troops as you can scrape up.
It would also be able to air left a lot of cargo. I'd Guess Clark Field in the Philippines would be the major support base for the air bridge. Aircraft like the C-133 Cargomaster, C-124 Globemaster II, C-118 Liftmaster are excellent long distance crago and troop lifters. The C-121 Super Constellation can't handle much cargo but for a prop engine, it can move a lot of troops very quickly. The C-124 ferried F-104s from Hamilton AFB, California to Formosa, 1958. The C-133 was a very large load carrier, include aircraft, only retired when the C-5 Galaxy became operational.
I would also not sell the Dutch merchant marine of 1959 short. Plenty of fast modern merchies flying the dutch flag.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 15, 2021 17:39:20 GMT
That is going to be a problem as the Netherlands might have some issues getting men and material there. I agree with ssgtc the US will help but the Netherlands will still have to do the heavy lifting.
One thing the USA military brings to any situation is by far the world's most powerful logistics organization. MATS (Military Air Transport Service) with literally hundreds of aircraft would be more than capable of airlifting as many Dutch troops as you can scrape up.
It would also be able to air left a lot of cargo. I'd Guess Clark Field in the Philippines would be the major support base for the air bridge. Aircraft like the C-133 Cargomaster, C-124 Globemaster II, C-118 Liftmaster are excellent long distance crago and troop lifters. The C-121 Super Constellation can't handle much cargo but for a prop engine, it can move a lot of troops very quickly. The C-124 ferried F-104s from Hamilton AFB, California to Formosa, 1958. The C-133 was a very large load carrier, include aircraft, only retired when the C-5 Galaxy became operational.
I would also not sell the Dutch merchant marine of 1959 short. Plenty of fast modern merchies flying the dutch flag.
Exactly. This is the kind of support the US would be more than willing to provide, providing the Netherlands can find the men to spare. Drowning New Guinea in fighters is also a possibility assuming the Dutch ask for them. But it's a fine line for the Netherlands to walk between accepting help from the US and still being able to pull their own weight when it comes to power projection. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 15, 2021 17:44:10 GMT
I agree with ssgtc the US will help but the Netherlands will still have to do the heavy lifting.
One thing the USA military brings to any situation is by far the world's most powerful logistics organization. MATS (Military Air Transport Service) with literally hundreds of aircraft would be more than capable of airlifting as many Dutch troops as you can scrape up.
It would also be able to air left a lot of cargo. I'd Guess Clark Field in the Philippines would be the major support base for the air bridge. Aircraft like the C-133 Cargomaster, C-124 Globemaster II, C-118 Liftmaster are excellent long distance crago and troop lifters. The C-121 Super Constellation can't handle much cargo but for a prop engine, it can move a lot of troops very quickly. The C-124 ferried F-104s from Hamilton AFB, California to Formosa, 1958. The C-133 was a very large load carrier, include aircraft, only retired when the C-5 Galaxy became operational.
I would also not sell the Dutch merchant marine of 1959 short. Plenty of fast modern merchies flying the dutch flag.
Exactly. This is the kind of support the US would be more than willing to provide, providing the Netherlands can find the men to spare. Drowning New Guinea in fighters is also a possibility assuming the Dutch ask for them. But it's a fine line for the Netherlands to walk between accepting help from the US and still being able to pull their own weight when it comes to power projection. The United States could transfer some fighters to the Netherlands who would be able to go head to head with Migs. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Mar 15, 2021 17:50:38 GMT
Exactly. This is the kind of support the US would be more than willing to provide, providing the Netherlands can find the men to spare. Drowning New Guinea in fighters is also a possibility assuming the Dutch ask for them. But it's a fine line for the Netherlands to walk between accepting help from the US and still being able to pull their own weight when it comes to power projection. The United States could transfer some fighters to the Netherlands who would be able to go head to head with Migs. They have fighters already that are a match for Indonesia's MiGs. They have Hawker Hunter F.6s in service with the Air Force. The only fighters the US has in theater are two squadrons of F-86Fs in the Philippines. The US didn't send F-104s there until late 59/early 60 IIRC. For the Netherlands, it's just a matter of getting the fighters into the theater. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 15, 2021 17:54:52 GMT
The United States could transfer some fighters to the Netherlands who would be able to go head to head with Migs. They have fighters already that are a match for Indonesia's MiGs. They have Hawker Hunter F.6s in service with the Air Force. The only fighters the US has in theater are two squadrons of F-86Fs in the Philippines. The US didn't send F-104s there until late 59/early 60 IIRC. For the Netherlands, it's just a matter of getting the fighters into the theater. Only way i can see is either Karel Doorman to transport 12 Hunters to NG ore have a cargo ship do it with a escort. |
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