ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 15:03:14 GMT
Question ssgtc, will Minas Gerais like OTL going ore is already undergoing a massive refit and reconstruction in the Netherlands. She is getting the refit she got in OTL. There honestly is not a lot they can do with her over what was done in OTL. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033 
Likes: 49,431
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2021 15:06:12 GMT
Question ssgtc, will Minas Gerais like OTL going ore is already undergoing a massive refit and reconstruction in the Netherlands. She is getting the refit she got in OTL. There honestly is not a lot they can do with her over what was done in OTL. Will Brazil add a second carrier ore is the current enough. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 15:11:58 GMT
She is getting the refit she got in OTL. There honestly is not a lot they can do with her over what was done in OTL. Will Brazil add a second carrier ore is the current enough. Any decisions about Brazil's carrier force are still years away from being made. They won't add Minas Gerais to the fleet for another 2 years yet and it'll be 3 before Argentina's carrier shows up in South America. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,431
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2021 15:15:14 GMT
Will Brazil add a second carrier ore is the current enough. Any decisions about Brazil's carrier force are still years away from being made. They won't add Minas Gerais to the fleet for another 2 years yet and it'll be 3 before Argentina's carrier shows up in South America. So until then, Brazil will be the only country in South America to have a operational carrier. |
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Jan 19, 2021 15:26:47 GMT
Yeah, if they send Doorman, she'll have a much more substantial screen. Though in all honesty, the Dutch surface fleet was woefully ill prepared to counter a modern air threat. Their most modern destroyers were the Holland and Friesland classes. They only had 4x120mm guns and between 1 and 6x40mm. They also had two light cruisers that mounted a total of 8x152mm guns, 8x57mm guns and 8x40mm guns. Against even a late 50s ASM, they would have to be VERY lucky to score a hit. True, the De Zeven Provinciën, one of 2 De Zeven Provinciën-class cruisers in service with the Royal Netherlands Navy only in 1962 to 1964 underwent a refit by RDM which included the removal of the two aft turrets and the installation of a RIM-2 Terrier SAM system, with that she could be a danger to any air tread, but at the moment, i doubt she would be able to successfully stop a bomber carrying AS-1 Kennels.  |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,431
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2021 15:29:38 GMT
True, the De Zeven Provinciën, one of 2 De Zeven Provinciën-class cruisers in service with the Royal Netherlands Navy only in 1962 to 1964 underwent a refit by RDM which included the removal of the two aft turrets and the installation of a RIM-2 Terrier SAM system, with that she could be a danger to any air tread, but at the moment, i doubt she would be able to successfully stop a bomber carrying AS-1 Kennels. Well to bad the De Zeven Provinciën has not yet installed them yet, it would be a good defense protecting the Doorman against Tupolev Tu-16KS-1 Badger naval bombers using AS-1 Kennel / KS-1 Kometa anti-ship missiles. ssgtc, will we see this also: Karel Doorman in 1960 set sail along with two destroyers and a modified oil tanker to "show the flag". In order to avoid possible problems with Indonesia's ally Egypt at the Suez Canal, she instead sailed around the Horn of Africa. She arrived in Fremantle, Australia, where the local seamen's union went on strike in sympathy with Indonesia; the crew used the propeller thrust of aircraft chained down on deck to nudge the carrier into dock without tugs. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 15:48:10 GMT
True, the De Zeven Provinciën, one of 2 De Zeven Provinciën-class cruisers in service with the Royal Netherlands Navy only in 1962 to 1964 underwent a refit by RDM which included the removal of the two aft turrets and the installation of a RIM-2 Terrier SAM system, with that she could be a danger to any air tread, but at the moment, i doubt she would be able to successfully stop a bomber carrying AS-1 Kennels. Yeah, first generation SAMs weren't exactly reliable. Particularly given the conditions that the Navy had to deal with, they could easily get knocked around and then it was anyone's guess what the damn thing would do. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 15:49:00 GMT
I hope the Dutch in this time line have better luck with the "ERRIER" than we had. There were times when these birds worked marvelously but there were times when they really did not. Problem was the GMMs and FTs could never tell in advance how Terrier would fly on any given day. In battle Shoot, Shoot, reload launcher and Shoot, Shoot again. Would be my recommendation. Well to bad the De Zeven Provinciën has not yet installed them yet, it would be a good defense protecting the Doorman against Tupolev Tu-16KS-1 Badger naval bombers using AS-1 Kennel / KS-1 Kometa anti-ship missiles. ssgtc, will we see this also: Karel Doorman in 1960 set sail along with two destroyers and a modified oil tanker to "show the flag". In order to avoid possible problems with Indonesia's ally Egypt at the Suez Canal, she instead sailed around the Horn of Africa. She arrived in Fremantle, Australia, where the local seamen's union went on strike in sympathy with Indonesia; the crew used the propeller thrust of aircraft chained down on deck to nudge the carrier into dock without tugs. Not quite. Indonesia has gone harder left here so there isn't QUITE the level of anger in the Unions that there was in OTL. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,431
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2021 15:50:00 GMT
Well to bad the De Zeven Provinciën has not yet installed them yet, it would be a good defense protecting the Doorman against Tupolev Tu-16KS-1 Badger naval bombers using AS-1 Kennel / KS-1 Kometa anti-ship missiles. ssgtc, will we see this also: Karel Doorman in 1960 set sail along with two destroyers and a modified oil tanker to "show the flag". In order to avoid possible problems with Indonesia's ally Egypt at the Suez Canal, she instead sailed around the Horn of Africa. She arrived in Fremantle, Australia, where the local seamen's union went on strike in sympathy with Indonesia; the crew used the propeller thrust of aircraft chained down on deck to nudge the carrier into dock without tugs. Not quite. Indonesia has gone harder left here so there isn't QUITE the level of anger in the Unions that there was in OTL. But still any Royal Netherlands Navy ships should avoid the Suez Canal if they head towards the East. |
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Jan 19, 2021 15:52:19 GMT
I hope the Dutch in this time line have better luck with the "ERRIER" than we had. There were times when these birds worked marvelously but there were times when they really did not. Problem was the GMMs and FTs could never tell in advance how Terrier would fly on any given day. In battle Shoot, Shoot, reload launcher and Shoot, Shoot again. Would be my recommendation. Well to bad the De Zeven Provinciën has not yet installed them yet, it would be a good defense protecting the Doorman against Tupolev Tu-16KS-1 Badger naval bombers using AS-1 Kennel / KS-1 Kometa anti-ship missiles. ssgtc , will we see this also: Karel Doorman in 1960 set sail along with two destroyers and a modified oil tanker to "show the flag". In order to avoid possible problems with Indonesia's ally Egypt at the Suez Canal, she instead sailed around the Horn of Africa. She arrived in Fremantle, Australia, where the local seamen's union went on strike in sympathy with Indonesia; the crew used the propeller thrust of aircraft chained down on deck to nudge the carrier into dock without tugs.
This is an alternate time line right? Why not fudge the upgrade timing and give the Karel Doorman a missile escort? At least it would make it more sporting!
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 16:01:26 GMT
Not quite. Indonesia has gone harder left here so there isn't QUITE the level of anger in the Unions that there was in OTL. But still any Royal Netherlands Navy ships should avoid the Suez Canal if they head towards the East. While they probably wouldn't send Doorman and her task force through it, they don't have a problem sending the two DEs through it if they decide to send them. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,431
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2021 16:02:57 GMT
Well to bad the De Zeven Provinciën has not yet installed them yet, it would be a good defense protecting the Doorman against Tupolev Tu-16KS-1 Badger naval bombers using AS-1 Kennel / KS-1 Kometa anti-ship missiles. ssgtc , will we see this also: Karel Doorman in 1960 set sail along with two destroyers and a modified oil tanker to "show the flag". In order to avoid possible problems with Indonesia's ally Egypt at the Suez Canal, she instead sailed around the Horn of Africa. She arrived in Fremantle, Australia, where the local seamen's union went on strike in sympathy with Indonesia; the crew used the propeller thrust of aircraft chained down on deck to nudge the carrier into dock without tugs.
This is an alternate time line right? Why not fudge the upgrade timing and give the Karel Doorman a missile escort? At least it would make it more sporting! The closet to AA escort would be the Holland-class destroyer with their 1 × 40 mm Bofors AA guns.  De Zeven Provinciën and here sister ship De Ruyter would have 8 × 57 mm AA guns (4x2) and 8 × 40 mm AA guns.  |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 16:03:29 GMT
Well to bad the De Zeven Provinciën has not yet installed them yet, it would be a good defense protecting the Doorman against Tupolev Tu-16KS-1 Badger naval bombers using AS-1 Kennel / KS-1 Kometa anti-ship missiles. ssgtc , will we see this also: Karel Doorman in 1960 set sail along with two destroyers and a modified oil tanker to "show the flag". In order to avoid possible problems with Indonesia's ally Egypt at the Suez Canal, she instead sailed around the Horn of Africa. She arrived in Fremantle, Australia, where the local seamen's union went on strike in sympathy with Indonesia; the crew used the propeller thrust of aircraft chained down on deck to nudge the carrier into dock without tugs.
This is an alternate time line right? Why not fudge the upgrade timing and give the Karel Doorman a missile escort? At least it would make it more sporting!
It comes down to timing, really. For a similar refit to USS Boston, it took 3 years to convert her from a Heavy Cruiser to a Heavy Guided Missile Cruiser. If they started work today on it, it wouldn't be ready until 1962. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 16:05:21 GMT
This is an alternate time line right? Why not fudge the upgrade timing and give the Karel Doorman a missile escort? At least it would make it more sporting! The closet to AA escort would be the Holland-class destroyer with their 1 × 40 mm Bofors AA guns. De Zeven Provinciën and here sister ship De Ruyter would have 8 × 57 mm AA guns (4x2) and 8 × 40 mm AA guns. The Friesland class DDs are actually a better AA escort. Same main battery as the Holland class, but with 6x40mm instead of just one. Not that 40mm mounts were very effective against 685mph missiles |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,431
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2021 16:05:56 GMT
This is an alternate time line right? Why not fudge the upgrade timing and give the Karel Doorman a missile escort? At least it would make it more sporting! It comes down to timing, really. For a similar refit to USS Boston, it took 3 years to convert her from a Heavy Cruiser to a Heavy Guided Missile Cruiser. If they started work today on it, it wouldn't be ready until 1962. And with tension so high between the Netherlands and Indonesia it would not be a good time to leave you with one more ship to fight. |
|
