lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2021 16:06:41 GMT
The closet to AA escort would be the Holland-class destroyer with their 1 × 40 mm Bofors AA guns.  De Zeven Provinciën and here sister ship De Ruyter would have 8 × 57 mm AA guns (4x2) and 8 × 40 mm AA guns.  The Friesland class DDs are actually a better AA escort. Same main battery as the Holland class, but with 6x40mm instead of just one. Not that 40mm mounts were very effective against 685mph missiles A forget about them. thanks. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 16:11:19 GMT
It comes down to timing, really. For a similar refit to USS Boston, it took 3 years to convert her from a Heavy Cruiser to a Heavy Guided Missile Cruiser. If they started work today on it, it wouldn't be ready until 1962. And with tension so high between the Netherlands and Indonesia it would not be a good time to leave you with one more ship to fight. Exactly this. They're already scraping the barrel for assets to send. They can't afford to pull a ship for a lengthy refit now. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2021 16:28:52 GMT
And with tension so high between the Netherlands and Indonesia it would not be a good time to leave you with one more ship to fight. Exactly this. They're already scraping the barrel for assets to send. They can't afford to pull a ship for a lengthy refit now. Doubt the United States will lease ore sell them new ships in order to bolster their navy. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 16:50:05 GMT
Exactly this. They're already scraping the barrel for assets to send. They can't afford to pull a ship for a lengthy refit now. Doubt the United States will lease ore sell them new ships in order to bolster their navy. They have in the past. They provided them six DEs under MDAP, so it's not unheard of. But the USN is trying to modernize their fleet as well. So even if they wanted to help, they really don't have the ships to spare. Not to mention that the Netherlands has a fairly robust shipbuilding industry and they preferred to build their own ships rather than accept foreign hulls. |
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gral
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Post by gral on Jan 19, 2021 19:29:03 GMT
Regarding Skyhawks, maybe, maybe not. Argentina was historically pretty successful in blocking Brazilian military purchases from the US. One thing here is that Skyhawks are the most modern light attack aircraft the US have, so they might not be all that keen on selling them all over. OTOH, they will have to do something to address the balance of power issues in South America.
As for a Minas Gerais air group, I'd say 10-12 light attack aircraft, up to 6 ASW aircraft and about 6 helicopters. EDIT: It's small enough to make one wish JK had bought HMS Victorious...
In which case could Brazil end up looking elsewhere? Say Britain or France who have carriers and a/c?
It would have to be either Britain or France, that's why I mentioned Étendards in a previous post. |
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Feb 2, 2021 4:15:58 GMT
Is the Laotian crisis still unfolding at the same time ITTL? How that combined with a more Communist leaning Indonesia will push several of the smaller states into the western camp and might make SEATO a viable alliance in the long term. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Feb 2, 2021 15:36:06 GMT
Is the Laotian crisis still unfolding at the same time ITTL? How that combined with a more Communist leaning Indonesia will push several of the smaller states into the western camp and might make SEATO a viable alliance in the long term. So far, nothing in the TL will substantially change the Laotian Civil War. At least right now. You may see more support from the US and the USSR for their respective sides though. |
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Feb 2, 2021 21:49:43 GMT
Is the Laotian crisis still unfolding at the same time ITTL? How that combined with a more Communist leaning Indonesia will push several of the smaller states into the western camp and might make SEATO a viable alliance in the long term. So far, nothing in the TL will substantially change the Laotian Civil War. At least right now. You may see more support from the US and the USSR for their respective sides though. Now I'm showing my undergraduate studies here and my research for 12 Minutes to Midnight, but IOTL Eisenhower came very close to committing American troops to preserve Laotian neutrality. One of the reasons that he decided against it was that it would have committed Kennedy and the issue came up during the transition period from the two administrations. There were also questions about supply and also evacuation if needed, both of which could have been provided by Thailand; so that objection can be overcome quite easily. Also any American intervention would be supported by Thailand and they deployed close to 100k soldiers IOTL to fight in Laos. There was also the omnipresent fear of Chinese intervention following the Korean war. Just one of those interesting flashpoints in the Cold War that could have dramatically escalated. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Feb 18, 2021 16:48:04 GMT
February 5, 1959
Washington, DC, USA
Secretary of Defense Neil McElroy had identical request from the governments of Brazil and Chile sitting on his desk. After the announcement that Argentina was purchasing supersonic fighters, both governments were practically demanding the opportunity to purchase supersonic fighters themselves. Before approving the sale to Argentina, he had had a feeling something like this was going to happen. Fortunately, neither country was raising a huge issue over the sale of the carrier. Brazil had already purchased a carrier and Chile was not currently in a position to buy one, with their Navy being heavily out of favor with the government after an unsuccessful revolt. With high performance aircraft already having been sold to Argentina, he wasn't entirely opposed to selling comparable aircraft to other countries in the region. His problem was that he wasn't sure what was actually available to sell.
Argentina was buying used F11F Tigers that the Navy was already phasing out of their frontline squadrons despite the last aircraft having been delivered by Grumman just two week earlier. And there were nowhere near enough F11Fs to provide sufficient numbers to all three countries. Grumman had only built two hundred of them and sixty of those were earmarked for Argentina. That only left about one hundred aircraft available for sale once the two F11F-1F prototypes were removed, the aircraft being flown by the Blue Angels were deducted and the aircraft that the Navy wanted to retain for use as trainers were accounted for.
Perhaps he could convince Grumman to restart Tiger production and sell new build aircraft to those countries? His other option might be to sell North American's proposed F-100N, a Super Sabre with simplified avionics, to Brazil and Chile. His only other option would be to sell all three countries F-104s, and that had the makings of a disaster. Not to mention the Air Force and Navy would likely scream bloody murder about selling mach two fighters to countries that they may have to invade in the future.
When it came down to it though, he may not have a choice. American manufacturers were already phasing out the first generation of fighters that could break the sound barrier and moving on to far more advanced designs. Selling a dumbed down version of a current fighter might be his only option. Deciding his best option would be to hedge his bets, he put in requests to Lockheed, Grumman and Vought for simplified fighters that might be suitable for export to South America.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 18, 2021 16:48:50 GMT
February 5, 1959
Washington, DC, USASecretary of Defense Neil McElroy had identical request from the governments of Brazil and Chile sitting on his desk. After the announcement that Argentina was purchasing supersonic fighters, both governments were practically demanding the opportunity to purchase supersonic fighters themselves. Before approving the sale to Argentina, he had had a feeling something like this was going to happen. Fortunately, neither country was raising a huge issue over the sale of the carrier. Brazil had already purchased a carrier and Chile was not currently in a position to buy one, with their Navy being heavily out of favor with the government after an unsuccessful revolt. With high performance aircraft already having been sold to Argentina, he wasn't entirely opposed to selling comparable aircraft to other countries in the region. His problem was that he wasn't sure what was actually available to sell. Argentina was buying used F11F Tigers that the Navy was already phasing out of their frontline squadrons despite the last aircraft having been delivered by Grumman just two week earlier. And there were nowhere near enough F11Fs to provide sufficient numbers to all three countries. Grumman had only built two hundred of them and sixty of those were earmarked for Argentina. That only left about one hundred aircraft available for sale once the two F11F-1F prototypes were removed, the aircraft being flown by the Blue Angels were deducted and the aircraft that the Navy wanted to retain for use as trainers were accounted for. Perhaps he could convince Grumman to restart Tiger production and sell new build aircraft to those countries? His other option might be to sell North American's proposed F-100N, a Super Sabre with simplified avionics, to Brazil and Chile. His only other option would be to sell all three countries F-104s, and that had the makings of a disaster. Not to mention the Air Force and Navy would likely scream bloody murder about selling mach two fighters to countries that they may have to invade in the future. When it came down to it though, he may not have a choice. American manufacturers were already phasing out the first generation of fighters that could break the sound barrier and moving on to far more advanced designs. Selling a dumbed down version of a current fighter might be his only option. Deciding his best option would be to hedge his bets, he put in requests to Lockheed, Grumman and Vought for simplified fighters that might be suitable for export to South America. So another good update ssgtc and a deserved 3 likes across 3 forums. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 18, 2021 18:35:56 GMT
February 5, 1959
Washington, DC, USASecretary of Defense Neil McElroy had identical request from the governments of Brazil and Chile sitting on his desk. After the announcement that Argentina was purchasing supersonic fighters, both governments were practically demanding the opportunity to purchase supersonic fighters themselves. Before approving the sale to Argentina, he had had a feeling something like this was going to happen. Fortunately, neither country was raising a huge issue over the sale of the carrier. Brazil had already purchased a carrier and Chile was not currently in a position to buy one, with their Navy being heavily out of favor with the government after an unsuccessful revolt. With high performance aircraft already having been sold to Argentina, he wasn't entirely opposed to selling comparable aircraft to other countries in the region. His problem was that he wasn't sure what was actually available to sell. Argentina was buying used F11F Tigers that the Navy was already phasing out of their frontline squadrons despite the last aircraft having been delivered by Grumman just two week earlier. And there were nowhere near enough F11Fs to provide sufficient numbers to all three countries. Grumman had only built two hundred of them and sixty of those were earmarked for Argentina. That only left about one hundred aircraft available for sale once the two F11F-1F prototypes were removed, the aircraft being flown by the Blue Angels were deducted and the aircraft that the Navy wanted to retain for use as trainers were accounted for. Perhaps he could convince Grumman to restart Tiger production and sell new build aircraft to those countries? His other option might be to sell North American's proposed F-100N, a Super Sabre with simplified avionics, to Brazil and Chile. His only other option would be to sell all three countries F-104s, and that had the makings of a disaster. Not to mention the Air Force and Navy would likely scream bloody murder about selling mach two fighters to countries that they may have to invade in the future. When it came down to it though, he may not have a choice. American manufacturers were already phasing out the first generation of fighters that could break the sound barrier and moving on to far more advanced designs. Selling a dumbed down version of a current fighter might be his only option. Deciding his best option would be to hedge his bets, he put in requests to Lockheed, Grumman and Vought for simplified fighters that might be suitable for export to South America.
I presume the other option, if the US doesn't supply them is that Brazil especially might look elsewhere for an alternative. Probably not the Soviets as that would be too explosive politically but could look towards Europe?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 18, 2021 18:42:06 GMT
I presume the other option, if the US doesn't supply them is that Brazil especially might look elsewhere for an alternative. Probably not the Soviets as that would be too explosive politically but could look towards Europe?
The French might be the best option stevep , Brazil could even get the Dassault Mirage III sooner than they did in OTL: The Mirage III in Brazil |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Feb 18, 2021 19:35:18 GMT
February 5, 1959
Washington, DC, USASecretary of Defense Neil McElroy had identical request from the governments of Brazil and Chile sitting on his desk. After the announcement that Argentina was purchasing supersonic fighters, both governments were practically demanding the opportunity to purchase supersonic fighters themselves. Before approving the sale to Argentina, he had had a feeling something like this was going to happen. Fortunately, neither country was raising a huge issue over the sale of the carrier. Brazil had already purchased a carrier and Chile was not currently in a position to buy one, with their Navy being heavily out of favor with the government after an unsuccessful revolt. With high performance aircraft already having been sold to Argentina, he wasn't entirely opposed to selling comparable aircraft to other countries in the region. His problem was that he wasn't sure what was actually available to sell. Argentina was buying used F11F Tigers that the Navy was already phasing out of their frontline squadrons despite the last aircraft having been delivered by Grumman just two week earlier. And there were nowhere near enough F11Fs to provide sufficient numbers to all three countries. Grumman had only built two hundred of them and sixty of those were earmarked for Argentina. That only left about one hundred aircraft available for sale once the two F11F-1F prototypes were removed, the aircraft being flown by the Blue Angels were deducted and the aircraft that the Navy wanted to retain for use as trainers were accounted for. Perhaps he could convince Grumman to restart Tiger production and sell new build aircraft to those countries? His other option might be to sell North American's proposed F-100N, a Super Sabre with simplified avionics, to Brazil and Chile. His only other option would be to sell all three countries F-104s, and that had the makings of a disaster. Not to mention the Air Force and Navy would likely scream bloody murder about selling mach two fighters to countries that they may have to invade in the future. When it came down to it though, he may not have a choice. American manufacturers were already phasing out the first generation of fighters that could break the sound barrier and moving on to far more advanced designs. Selling a dumbed down version of a current fighter might be his only option. Deciding his best option would be to hedge his bets, he put in requests to Lockheed, Grumman and Vought for simplified fighters that might be suitable for export to South America.
I presume the other option, if the US doesn't supply them is that Brazil especially might look elsewhere for an alternative. Probably not the Soviets as that would be too explosive politically but could look towards Europe?
Yes, that was heavily hinted at in the requests. France and the UK would be only too happy to sell advanced fighters to South America. Keep an eye open for soon to arrive British fighter developments... |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 19, 2021 10:49:14 GMT
I presume the other option, if the US doesn't supply them is that Brazil especially might look elsewhere for an alternative. Probably not the Soviets as that would be too explosive politically but could look towards Europe?
Yes, that was heavily hinted at in the requests. France and the UK would be only too happy to sell advanced fighters to South America. Keep an eye open for soon to arrive British fighter developments...
Now that will make Argentina happy - not.  |
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gral
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Post by gral on Feb 19, 2021 23:51:00 GMT
I presume the other option, if the US doesn't supply them is that Brazil especially might look elsewhere for an alternative. Probably not the Soviets as that would be too explosive politically but could look towards Europe?
Yes, that was heavily hinted at in the requests. France and the UK would be only too happy to sell advanced fighters to South America. Keep an eye open for soon to arrive British fighter developments...P.1121? I'd take it right away. Pity the British carrier aircraft are too heavy for a Colossus-class and suck. Speaking of advanced fighters reminds me that Breguet has that Mirage F1 look-alike in their portfolio of projects in 1958-9...
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