ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 18, 2021 20:47:51 GMT
Argentina had expressed interest in acquiring the F8U-2 Crusader for their new carrier, however the United States flatly refused to sell the new fighter to them. Good as the F8U-2 Crusader in service with Argentina would rival that of the fighters in service with the United Kingdom i guess.  The Tiger outperforms everything that the UK has except the Lightning at this point |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 18, 2021 20:49:37 GMT
Yes, neither Brazil nor Chile are very happy right now. They didn't care too much about the carrier, but the aircraft are going to be a problem. Brazil didn't care so much about the carrier because, by law, they were not allowed to operate anything but ASW aircraft from theirs. There will be changes coming down the line. And yes, there are HUGE political repercussions to the Navy having more power than the Air Force.
Oh dear. Do you mean its like the USN and USAF or the Japanese army and navy. "Stuff the foreigners, their the enemy!"  It is likely to cause problems in the average stable democracy let alone somewhere less stable. Lol. They weren't quite THAT bad. The Army and Air Force supported one group while the Navy generally supported another. That had repercussions for the Navy after their side lost a coup attempt. |
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Jan 18, 2021 23:56:24 GMT
The Argentinians have a more potent carrier group, can they adequately protect it and do they have the commitment to financially support that decision. Either way the Army is likely to be furious at the reduction in their budget . Looks like the Dutch are in a bind with only having a very small number of shooters to protect their carrier. They might need to convince some of their allies for a join them on a transit eastwards through the Indonesian archipelago, which might be enough to make the Indonesians think twice about launching an attack. Then again Sukarno's decision making was erratic at best, so who knows. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 0:33:29 GMT
The Argentinians have a more potent carrier group, can they adequately protect it and do they have the commitment to financially support that decision. Either way the Army is likely to be furious at the reduction in their budget . Looks like the Dutch are in a bind with only having a very small number of shooters to protect their carrier. They might need to convince some of their allies for a join them on a transit eastwards through the Indonesian archipelago, which might be enough to make the Indonesians think twice about launching an attack. Then again Sukarno's decision making was erratic at best, so who knows. Surprisingly, yeah they actually could afford it and could protect it reasonably well. At this time, they had a mix of American and British cruisers and Destroyers. Just reducing the complexity of the fleet and cutting the British destroyers and cruiser and one of the American cruisers gives them the manpower they need. And the budget needed. Just to clarify one point, the 4 ships that are listed in the update are not part of the screen for Doorman. The Eversten and Koertner are the two ships currently in the SWP as part of the Netherlands commitment to Western New Guinea. The other two ships are being sent as reinforcements for them. The Doorman is in the middle of work hips Ups and preparing for a goodwill cruise to the United States. |
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Jan 19, 2021 0:58:08 GMT
That makes more sense as I thought that only having two ships accompanying Doorman only her transit was incredibly risky, particularly given the tension between the Indonesians and the Dutch. While expanding the surface fleet assigned to Western New Guinea is a good choice, since the operational tempo imposed upon the current 2 vessels is unsustainable from a manpower or material perspective.
One thing that is particularly interesting is that I believe the Dutch PM at the time was a former WW 2 submarine ace, perhaps we might see a new generation of Dutch submarine ace.
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gral
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Post by gral on Jan 19, 2021 1:16:03 GMT
Brazil didn't care so much about the carrier because, by law, they were not allowed to operate anything but ASW aircraft from theirs.
Two things:
First, the Navy wasn't allowed to operate fixed wing aircraft; the S-2 Trackers which flew from NAeL Minas Gerais were operated by the Air Force.
Second and more important, the above-mentioned law was a 1965 one. As of 1959, the Brazilian Navy is working to acquire aircraft to outfit the future Minas(HMS Vengeance), being refitted/rebuilt to be commissioned in the Brazilian Navy in late 1960... as well as fighting the Air Force, who had assumed they would operate the aircraft and had already created(1957) a unit to operate the future carrier aircraft - First Embarked Aviation Group(1º GAE). The fighting between the Air Force and Navy concerning carrier aviation would only end with the above-mentioned law.
Here, the Essex and Tigers make things much more difficult. The Brazilian President was in good terms with the Argentinian one, but two branches of the military here will be feeling threatened - I think the Navy will end up using Minas Gerais as the Argentinians historically operated 25 de Mayo, instead of solely as an ASW carrier(the final decision was taken in 1959 historically), but assuming the US doesn't sell Skyhawks to Brazil, what would fit there? Étendards? FJ-4s?
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 1:44:18 GMT
That makes more sense as I thought that only having two ships accompanying Doorman only her transit was incredibly risky, particularly given the tension between the Indonesians and the Dutch. While expanding the surface fleet assigned to Western New Guinea is a good choice, since the operational tempo imposed upon the current 2 vessels is unsustainable from a manpower or material perspective. One thing that is particularly interesting is that I believe the Dutch PM at the time was a former WW 2 submarine ace, perhaps we might see a new generation of Dutch submarine ace. Yeah, if they send Doorman, she'll have a much more substantial screen. Though in all honesty, the Dutch surface fleet was woefully ill prepared to counter a modern air threat. Their most modern destroyers were the Holland and Friesland classes. They only had 4x120mm guns and between 1 and 6x40mm. They also had two light cruisers that mounted a total of 8x152mm guns, 8x57mm guns and 8x40mm guns. Against even a late 50s ASM, they would have to be VERY lucky to score a hit. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 1:46:28 GMT
Brazil didn't care so much about the carrier because, by law, they were not allowed to operate anything but ASW aircraft from theirs.
Two things:
First, the Navy wasn't allowed to operate fixed wing aircraft; the S-2 Trackers which flew from NAeL Minas Gerais were operated by the Air Force.
Second and more important, the above-mentioned law was a 1965 one. As of 1959, the Brazilian Navy is working to acquire aircraft to outfit the future Minas(HMS Vengeance), being refitted/rebuilt to be commissioned in the Brazilian Navy in late 1960... as well as fighting the Air Force, who had assumed they would operate the aircraft and had already created(1957) a unit to operate the future carrier aircraft - First Embarked Aviation Group(1º GAE). The fighting between the Air Force and Navy concerning carrier aviation would only end with the above-mentioned law.
Here, the Essex and Tigers make things much more difficult. The Brazilian President was in good terms with the Argentinian one, but two branches of the military here will be feeling threatened - I think the Navy will end up using Minas Gerais as the Argentinians historically operated 25 de Mayo, instead of solely as an ASW carrier(the final decision was taken in 1959 historically), but assuming the US doesn't sell Skyhawks to Brazil, what would fit there? Étendards? FJ-4s?
Thanks for the info on that. I thought it was a much earlier law. I don't see the US having a problem selling Brazil Skyhawks. Though their carrier is going to be severely limited in what it can operate in the fighter role. I'll have to see what they safely fly off it |
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gral
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Post by gral on Jan 19, 2021 2:17:26 GMT
Thanks for the info on that. I thought it was a much earlier law. I don't see the US having a problem selling Brazil Skyhawks. Though their carrier is going to be severely limited in what it can operate in the fighter role. I'll have to see what they safely fly off it Regarding Skyhawks, maybe, maybe not. Argentina was historically pretty successful in blocking Brazilian military purchases from the US. One thing here is that Skyhawks are the most modern light attack aircraft the US have, so they might not be all that keen on selling them all over. OTOH, they will have to do something to address the balance of power issues in South America.
As for a Minas Gerais air group, I'd say 10-12 light attack aircraft, up to 6 ASW aircraft and about 6 helicopters. EDIT: It's small enough to make one wish JK had bought HMS Victorious...
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 2:58:45 GMT
Thanks for the info on that. I thought it was a much earlier law. I don't see the US having a problem selling Brazil Skyhawks. Though their carrier is going to be severely limited in what it can operate in the fighter role. I'll have to see what they safely fly off it Regarding Skyhawks, maybe, maybe not. Argentina was historically pretty successful in blocking Brazilian military purchases from the US. One thing here is that Skyhawks are the most modern light attack aircraft the US have, so they might not be all that keen on selling them all over. OTOH, they will have to do something to address the balance of power issues in South America.
As for a Minas Gerais air group, I'd say 10-12 light attack aircraft, up to 6 ASW aircraft and about 6 helicopters. EDIT: It's small enough to make one wish JK had bought HMS Victorious...
I'll have to do some digging to confirm it, but per wiki, even after her refit the Minas Gerais could only operate aircraft weighing up to 20,000 pounds. The Tiger is roughly 3,500 pounds over that (with external fuel, with just Sidewinders and guns, it was still 1,900 pounds over). Even the FJ-4 with just 4 Sidewinders hung on it was more than 1,200 pounds over that limit. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2021 4:19:02 GMT
That makes more sense as I thought that only having two ships accompanying Doorman only her transit was incredibly risky, particularly given the tension between the Indonesians and the Dutch. While expanding the surface fleet assigned to Western New Guinea is a good choice, since the operational tempo imposed upon the current 2 vessels is unsustainable from a manpower or material perspective. One thing that is particularly interesting is that I believe the Dutch PM at the time was a former WW 2 submarine ace, perhaps we might see a new generation of Dutch submarine ace. Yeah, if they send Doorman, she'll have a much more substantial screen. Though in all honesty, the Dutch surface fleet was woefully ill prepared to counter a modern air threat. Their most modern destroyers were the Holland and Friesland classes. They only had 4x120mm guns and between 1 and 6x40mm. They also had two light cruisers that mounted a total of 8x152mm guns, 8x57mm guns and 8x40mm guns. Against even a late 50s ASM, they would have to be VERY lucky to score a hit. True, the De Zeven Provinciën, one of 2 De Zeven Provinciën-class cruisers in service with the Royal Netherlands Navy only in 1962 to 1964 underwent a refit by RDM which included the removal of the two aft turrets and the installation of a RIM-2 Terrier SAM system, with that she could be a danger to any air tread, but at the moment, i doubt she would be able to successfully stop a bomber carrying AS-1 Kennels. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 5:40:05 GMT
Yeah, if they send Doorman, she'll have a much more substantial screen. Though in all honesty, the Dutch surface fleet was woefully ill prepared to counter a modern air threat. Their most modern destroyers were the Holland and Friesland classes. They only had 4x120mm guns and between 1 and 6x40mm. They also had two light cruisers that mounted a total of 8x152mm guns, 8x57mm guns and 8x40mm guns. Against even a late 50s ASM, they would have to be VERY lucky to score a hit. True, the De Zeven Provinciën, one of 2 De Zeven Provinciën-class cruisers in service with the Royal Netherlands Navy only in 1962 to 1964 underwent a refit by RDM which included the removal of the two aft turrets and the installation of a RIM-2 Terrier SAM system, with that she could be a danger to any air tread, but at the moment, i doubt she would be able to successfully stop a bomber carrying AS-1 Kennels. Particularly since the bomber won't ever be in range of her guns. The AS-1 Kennel could be launched at the target from over 50 miles away. And given its speed, it will cover that distance in under 5 minutes. Even considering that it's a subsonic missile, that little bastard is covering over 11 miles every minute. The 152mm guns have limited AA use while the 57mm guns have an effective range of only 5,000 meters. At the speed a KS-1 will be moving, they have about 15 seconds to shoot it down. Even at its maximum range of 13,000 meters, they still only have about 45 seconds to knock one down. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 19, 2021 11:48:22 GMT
Thanks for the info on that. I thought it was a much earlier law. I don't see the US having a problem selling Brazil Skyhawks. Though their carrier is going to be severely limited in what it can operate in the fighter role. I'll have to see what they safely fly off it Regarding Skyhawks, maybe, maybe not. Argentina was historically pretty successful in blocking Brazilian military purchases from the US. One thing here is that Skyhawks are the most modern light attack aircraft the US have, so they might not be all that keen on selling them all over. OTOH, they will have to do something to address the balance of power issues in South America.
As for a Minas Gerais air group, I'd say 10-12 light attack aircraft, up to 6 ASW aircraft and about 6 helicopters. EDIT: It's small enough to make one wish JK had bought HMS Victorious...
In which case could Brazil end up looking elsewhere? Say Britain or France who have carriers and a/c?
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 19, 2021 11:51:38 GMT
Regarding Skyhawks, maybe, maybe not. Argentina was historically pretty successful in blocking Brazilian military purchases from the US. One thing here is that Skyhawks are the most modern light attack aircraft the US have, so they might not be all that keen on selling them all over. OTOH, they will have to do something to address the balance of power issues in South America.
As for a Minas Gerais air group, I'd say 10-12 light attack aircraft, up to 6 ASW aircraft and about 6 helicopters. EDIT: It's small enough to make one wish JK had bought HMS Victorious...
In which case could Brazil end up looking elsewhere? Say Britain or France who have carriers and a/c?
I don't see why they wouldn't. Though they were pretty weight limited in what size aircraft they could launch from their carrier. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2021 14:50:31 GMT
Question ssgtc, will Minas Gerais like OTL going ore is already undergoing a massive refit and reconstruction in the Netherlands. |
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It is likely to cause problems in the average stable democracy let alone somewhere less stable. 
