ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 17, 2021 20:03:14 GMT
Worried, but not WORRIED. They feel certain that they can repel any invasion of their territory. Plus, they have A LOT more military force available in theater than the Netherlands does So Australia and the Netherlands do not share information, officially ore un-officially relating matter regarding Indonesia. They share some information. But it's just in the normal course of business. It's not like they have a joint committee coordinating anything.
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Jan 18, 2021 0:00:56 GMT
Yeah the lack of shared information or joint planning was staggering once I realised that too.
One other factor that has been ignored is that Australia also has the Pacific Island Regiment to utilise to support the Dutch if needed. Easy enough to transport them into West Irian and augment the Papuan Volunteers in Dutch service. I've got a book about them called 'Guarding the Frontier,' and at the time they were considered to be the Australian equivalent of the Gurkhas. There would be communication issues, but that could be overcome by assigning a Dutch & English speaking officer at the HQ level.
The only problem is that if things go south with the Dutch would be repatriating the PIR force.
So let's say a Battalion group + SF elements are deployed in conjunction with the Dutch military.
Do the Dutch have any submarines that can be supported either?
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 18, 2021 0:24:30 GMT
Yeah the lack of shared information or joint planning was staggering once I realised that too. One other factor that has been ignored is that Australia also has the Pacific Island Regiment to utilise to support the Dutch if needed. Easy enough to transport them into West Irian and augment the Papuan Volunteers in Dutch service. I've got a book about them called 'Guarding the Frontier,' and at the time they were considered to be the Australian equivalent of the Gurkhas. There would be communication issues, but that could be overcome by assigning a Dutch & English speaking officer at the HQ level. The only problem is that if things go south with the Dutch would be repatriating the PIR force. So let's say a Battalion group + SF elements are deployed in conjunction with the Dutch military. Do the Dutch have any submarines that can be supported either? Whether Australia would commit troops or other forces is really depending on whether Indonesia starts pushing claims to PNG and how hard they're pushing about Borneo. If they play it smart, they won't. Yet. That would keep Australia on the sidelines. As for Dutch submarines, they had them. But I wouldn't exactly call them a modern, capable force. They had 4 British T class boats and 2 American Balao class boats that had the GUPPY IB modification (meaning snorkels and new batteries along with some habitability upgrades, but WWII vintage sonar and fire control). The Indonesians have a more modern submarine fleet equipped with Soviet Whiskey class submarines.
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Jan 18, 2021 0:41:57 GMT
The cloggies go through SMCC better known as Perisher, while their boats are old their leadership is likely to be far better than their Indonesian peers. After all the Indonesians from my read are focused on fast jets, heavy bomber with AsHm capability and the Kopassus or Kopaska depending upon internal power plays. Leaving little money for the sustained work ups and commitment to shore training to turn a submarine into a lethal strategic platform. However, if at least one boat is manned by Soviet volunteers then all bets are off.
While the RAN didn't have a submarine capability at the time, they did have a RN submarine squadron in Sydney that operated submarines (a generation newer than the Dutch). So there is another option here as well to make events escalate or not.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 18, 2021 0:48:04 GMT
The cloggies go through SMCC better known as Perisher, while their boats are old their leadership is likely to be far better than their Indonesian peers. After all the Indonesians from my read are focused on fast jets, heavy bomber with AsHm capability and the Kopassus or Kopaska depending upon internal power plays. Leaving little money for the sustained work ups and commitment to shore training to turn a submarine into a lethal strategic platform. However, if at least one boat is manned by Soviet volunteers then all bets are off. While the RAN didn't have a submarine capability at the time, they did have a RN submarine squadron in Sydney that operated submarines (a generation newer than the Dutch). So there is another option here as well to make events escalate or not. Yeah, any Perisher graduate is gonna be SCARY to face. Though the age of the boats is a major concern. And that's good to know that the RN had a submarine squadron in the area at the time.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 18, 2021 16:46:14 GMT
January 31, 1959 Sorong, West New Guinea
Dutch Intelligence begins to see movement from Indonesian Ground, Naval and Air units that indicate a major operation is being planned against Dutch New Guinea. Radio intercept units confirm that the target of the Indonesian build up is West New Guinea. Dutch military forces in the area are placed in a higher state of readiness. As part of that, the Royal Netherlands Navy frigates Eversteen and Kortenaer, the two ships currently on rotation to the island, are ordered to increase their patrol activity around the island and to maintain no less than half the crew on board whenever in port with the ship's boilers operating and ready to put to sea at a moment's notice.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 18, 2021 16:49:06 GMT
January, 31 1959 Amsterdam, New Holland, Netherlands
Within the Ministry of Defence, multiple options are being explored for the possible reinforcement of West New Guinea. Unfortunately, the conditions that led to the bare minimum of forces being sent in the first place still applied. While the situation was somewhat improved, with the Karel Doorman having been returned to service from her lengthy refit, the cupboard was still relatively bare. The only ships that could possibly be sent to reinforce the two frigates on station were the Van Ewijk and De Zeeuw, two old American Cannon class destroyer escorts. They lacked much in the way of ant surface armament and were becoming increasingly outdated in their primary mission of antisubmarine warfare. But they were what was available. The two ships were given warning orders that they may be called upon to deploy to the Far East with little to no notice beyond this message. On both ships, their Captains began tearing their hair out at the prospect of a long, unplanned deployment. They each had a thousand and one things to do to make their ships ready. They braced themselves for some very long days ahead.
In addition to the two destroyer escorts, the submarine Zeeleeuw, another American World War Two cast off, was ordered to deploy to West New Guinea. The old Balao class submarine was by no mean modern, but she had a first rate crew and working torpedos. She could prove vital in preventing any landings on the island.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 18, 2021 16:52:33 GMT
February 2, 1959 Buenos Aires, Argentina
Argentina agrees to buy sixty refurbished F11F-1 Tiger fighters, seventy-five rebuilt A4D-2 Skyhawks, six WF-1 Tracers and four TF-1 Traders to equip their new carrier and training squadrons. Thirty-six of the Tigers will serve with the Comando de la Aviación Naval Argentina while the remaining twenty four will be used as a source of spare parts and as an attrition reserve. Likewise, only forty-eight of the Skyhawks will be actively flown at any one time. The rest will be used for parts and for attrition replacement. The Tiger, which is capable of attaining mach 1.1, is the first supersonic fighter purchased by any South American country. Argentina had expressed interest in acquiring the F8U-2 Crusader for their new carrier, however the United States flatly refused to sell the new fighter to them. The United States Navy attaché had also emphasized that operating the Tiger alongside the Skyhawk would greatly ease the logistics burden on Argentina as both aircraft used the same Wright J65 engine, though the F11F's engine was equipped with an afterburner.
At the same time as the order for the combat aircraft are placed, two aircraft licenses are purchased for the production of Beechcraft T-34 Mentor primary trainers and Lockheed T2V SeaStar carrier capable jet trainers. A latter addendum to this license also allows for the production of T-33 land based jet trainers for the Argentine Air Force. These aircraft are to be built by the state owned aircraft firm Fábrica Militar de Aviones in Cordoba. Both of the trainers selected by Argentina are carrier capable in order to train student Naval Aviators in shipboard operations and to reduce the losses of front line naval aircraft from inexperienced pilots crashing while attempting to land on a carrier for the first time.
Based on the F-80 Shooting Star, America's first jet fighter, the simplicity of the SeaStar trainer is seen as a positive for the fledgling aircraft manufacturer that had struggled to build indigenous designs. The first airframes will be assembled from American supplied kits, with the FMA increasing the amount of domestically produced parts as it gains experience in modern manufacturing techniques. It was hoped that the experience gained by building the jet trainer would help the FMA build more complex designs, such as the I.Ae. 37 and I.Ae. 48, in the future. A third license request, to build Douglas A4D Skyhawks, is declined.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2021 16:58:28 GMT
January 31, 1959 Sorong, West New GuineaDutch Intelligence begins to see movement from Indonesian Ground, Naval and Air units that indicate a major operation is being planned against Dutch New Guinea. Radio intercept units confirm that the target of the Indonesian build up is West New Guinea. Dutch military forces in the area are placed in a higher state of readiness. As part of that, the Royal Netherlands Navy frigates Eversteen and Kortenaer, the two ships currently on rotation to the island, are ordered to increase their patrol activity around the island and to maintain no less than half the crew on board whenever in port with the ship's boilers operating and ready to put to sea at a moment's notice. Nice update, good to see the Netherlands doing its best to counter the Indonesian buildup, but one nit pick, it should be Evertsen and not Eversteen.
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gral
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Post by gral on Jan 18, 2021 18:42:42 GMT
February 2, 1959 Buenos Aires, ArgentinaArgentina agrees to buy sixty refurbished F11F-1 Tiger fighters, seventy-five rebuilt A4D-2 Skyhawks, six WF-1 Tracers and four TF-1 Traders to equip their new carrier and training squadrons. Thirty-six of the Tigers will serve with the Comando de la Aviación Naval Argentina while the remaining twenty four will be used as a source of spare parts and as an attrition reserve. Likewise, only forty-eight of the Skyhawks will be actively flown at any one time. The rest will be used for parts and for attrition replacement. The Tiger, which is capable of attaining mach 1.1, is the first supersonic fighter purchased by any South American country. Argentina had expressed interest in acquiring the F8U-2 Crusader for their new carrier, however the United States flatly refused to sell the new fighter to them. The United States Navy attaché had also emphasized that operating the Tiger alongside the Skyhawk would greatly ease the logistics burden on Argentina as both aircraft used the same Wright J65 engine, though the F11F's engine was equipped with an afterburner. At the same time as the order for the combat aircraft are placed, two aircraft licenses are purchased for the production of Beechcraft T-34 Mentor primary trainers and Lockheed T2V SeaStar carrier capable jet trainers. A latter addendum to this license also allows for the production of T-33 land based jet trainers for the Argentine Air Force. These aircraft are to be built by the state owned aircraft firm Fábrica Militar de Aviones in Cordoba. Both of the trainers selected by Argentina are carrier capable in order to train student Naval Aviators in shipboard operations and to reduce the losses of front line naval aircraft from inexperienced pilots crashing while attempting to land on a carrier for the first time. Based on the F-80 Shooting Star, America's first jet fighter, the simplicity of the SeaStar trainer is seen as a positive for the fledgling aircraft manufacturer that had struggled to build indigenous designs. The first airframes will be assembled from American supplied kits, with the FMA increasing the amount of domestically produced parts as it gains experience in modern manufacturing techniques. It was hoped that the experience gained by building the jet trainer would help the FMA build more complex designs, such as the I.Ae. 37 and I.Ae. 48, in the future. A third license request, to build Douglas A4D Skyhawks, is declined. The Brazilian military is going to be howling mad - especially given that Brazil has a military treaty with the USA and is getting older equipment than the Argentinians - historically, the USA took care in not selling anything to Argentina, Brazil or Chile that gave any of those three clear superiority over the others; an Essex and supersonic fighters count as such(historically, the US would only sell supersonic fighters to South America in the 1970's, after Brazil and Argentina got Mirages - even in the late 1960's, they only offered Super Sabres to Brazil, which was why Brazil bought French). I'd expect the Brazilians to be looking for supersonic fighters for right now. I also think they won't be able to get anything other than Super Mystères with Mirage IIIs in the future.
There are also some very... interesting political implications of making the Argentinian Navy more powerful than the Air Force.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 18, 2021 18:45:02 GMT
This is looking grim for the Dutch and the inhabitants of West Irian but one thing the Indonesian government may have overlooked is that invading isn't necessarily holding. If the Dutch and their allies [assuming some commit to that role] decide to fight there's a hell of a lot of jungle and mountains in that area. They may take some coastal ports but with continued opposition by allies its going to be a big task trying to subdue their new colony.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 18, 2021 19:50:31 GMT
February 2, 1959 Buenos Aires, ArgentinaArgentina agrees to buy sixty refurbished F11F-1 Tiger fighters, seventy-five rebuilt A4D-2 Skyhawks, six WF-1 Tracers and four TF-1 Traders to equip their new carrier and training squadrons. Thirty-six of the Tigers will serve with the Comando de la Aviación Naval Argentina while the remaining twenty four will be used as a source of spare parts and as an attrition reserve. Likewise, only forty-eight of the Skyhawks will be actively flown at any one time. The rest will be used for parts and for attrition replacement. The Tiger, which is capable of attaining mach 1.1, is the first supersonic fighter purchased by any South American country. Argentina had expressed interest in acquiring the F8U-2 Crusader for their new carrier, however the United States flatly refused to sell the new fighter to them. The United States Navy attaché had also emphasized that operating the Tiger alongside the Skyhawk would greatly ease the logistics burden on Argentina as both aircraft used the same Wright J65 engine, though the F11F's engine was equipped with an afterburner. At the same time as the order for the combat aircraft are placed, two aircraft licenses are purchased for the production of Beechcraft T-34 Mentor primary trainers and Lockheed T2V SeaStar carrier capable jet trainers. A latter addendum to this license also allows for the production of T-33 land based jet trainers for the Argentine Air Force. These aircraft are to be built by the state owned aircraft firm Fábrica Militar de Aviones in Cordoba. Both of the trainers selected by Argentina are carrier capable in order to train student Naval Aviators in shipboard operations and to reduce the losses of front line naval aircraft from inexperienced pilots crashing while attempting to land on a carrier for the first time. Based on the F-80 Shooting Star, America's first jet fighter, the simplicity of the SeaStar trainer is seen as a positive for the fledgling aircraft manufacturer that had struggled to build indigenous designs. The first airframes will be assembled from American supplied kits, with the FMA increasing the amount of domestically produced parts as it gains experience in modern manufacturing techniques. It was hoped that the experience gained by building the jet trainer would help the FMA build more complex designs, such as the I.Ae. 37 and I.Ae. 48, in the future. A third license request, to build Douglas A4D Skyhawks, is declined. The Brazilian military is going to be howling mad - especially given that Brazil has a military treaty with the USA and is getting older equipment than the Argentinians - historically, the USA took care in not selling anything to Argentina, Brazil or Chile that gave any of those three clear superiority over the others; an Essex and supersonic fighters count as such(historically, the US would only sell supersonic fighters to South America in the 1970's, after Brazil and Argentina got Mirages - even in the late 1960's, they only offered Super Sabres to Brazil, which was why Brazil bought French). I'd expect the Brazilians to be looking for supersonic fighters for right now. I also think they won't be able to get anything other than Super Mystères with Mirage IIIs in the future.
There are also some very... interesting political implications of making the Argentinian Navy more powerful than the Air Force.
Yes, neither Brazil nor Chile are very happy right now. They didn't care too much about the carrier, but the aircraft are going to be a problem. Brazil didn't care so much about the carrier because, by law, they were not allowed to operate anything but ASW aircraft from theirs. There will be changes coming down the line. And yes, there are HUGE political repercussions to the Navy having more power than the Air Force.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 18, 2021 19:51:46 GMT
This is looking grim for the Dutch and the inhabitants of West Irian but one thing the Indonesian government may have overlooked is that invading isn't necessarily holding. If the Dutch and their allies [assuming some commit to that role] decide to fight there's a hell of a lot of jungle and mountains in that area. They may take some coastal ports but with continued opposition by allies its going to be a big task trying to subdue their new colony. Very true. Of course, the people of West Irian are just DYING to be freed of their colonial overlords, didn't you know that? /s
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2021 20:07:21 GMT
Argentina had expressed interest in acquiring the F8U-2 Crusader for their new carrier, however the United States flatly refused to sell the new fighter to them. Good as the F8U-2 Crusader in service with Argentina would rival that of the fighters in service with the United Kingdom i guess.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 18, 2021 20:31:45 GMT
The Brazilian military is going to be howling mad - especially given that Brazil has a military treaty with the USA and is getting older equipment than the Argentinians - historically, the USA took care in not selling anything to Argentina, Brazil or Chile that gave any of those three clear superiority over the others; an Essex and supersonic fighters count as such(historically, the US would only sell supersonic fighters to South America in the 1970's, after Brazil and Argentina got Mirages - even in the late 1960's, they only offered Super Sabres to Brazil, which was why Brazil bought French). I'd expect the Brazilians to be looking for supersonic fighters for right now. I also think they won't be able to get anything other than Super Mystères with Mirage IIIs in the future.
There are also some very... interesting political implications of making the Argentinian Navy more powerful than the Air Force.
Yes, neither Brazil nor Chile are very happy right now. They didn't care too much about the carrier, but the aircraft are going to be a problem. Brazil didn't care so much about the carrier because, by law, they were not allowed to operate anything but ASW aircraft from theirs. There will be changes coming down the line. And yes, there are HUGE political repercussions to the Navy having more power than the Air Force.
Oh dear. Do you mean its like the USN and USAF or the Japanese army and navy. "Stuff the foreigners, their the enemy!" It is likely to cause problems in the average stable democracy let alone somewhere less stable.
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